Red Mage Base Class [PEACH]

[PaladinJohn]

Hello! This is my first post on the forums!

I'm looking for some constructive criticism regarding a base class I cobbled together. First, let me give you a little bit of a background on the problem I'm facing, the constraints about this build, and the goal I'm aiming for with this class.

The Problem: Much to my dismay, there exists no base class in either 3.5 or Pathfinder that emulates the essence of Red Mage. Yes, there are many classes and archetypes that come close, and if you squint your eyes enough you can almost pretend you're playing a Red Mage. However, one of my goals in D&D is to play a Red Mage type character in a campaign, to this effect, and to get the essence of Red Mage consolidated into a base class, I must resort to creating it myself.

The Constraints: My play group is very leery of any home brew. VERY Leery. I can't blame them as I myself am also very leery of home brew, especially in the 3.5 environment where things can easily get out of hand if not properly constructed and balanced. The Red Mage itself is a very dangerous thing to tinker with since it's high versatility and utility make it a prime target for abuse, and could set off red flags with any DM I try to pitch this too. To that end, I'm trying to make this class so underpowered that even the most skittish DM can agree this does not challenge or threaten the balance of the game. At the same time, it still needs to be playable, fun, and encompass what it is to be a Red Mage. My reasoning is if a base, underpowered version of the class can be created, then it can slowly be upgraded until it falls in line with the appropriate power level of the other pathfinder base classes. While I appreciate any attempts to buff this class and get it close to pathfinder power level for future consideration, I am really looking for a blatantly underpowered class right now. Baby steps.

The Goal: Let me start by defining the core requirements that are necessary to properly emulate what I am looking for in the base class.

1. It must be able to have at least 3/4 BAB and wield longswords.
2. It must be able to wear medium armor, wear shields, and cast arcane spells in both without failure.
3. It must be able to cast damaging Arcane spells that deal respectable damage.
4. It must be able to cast the Cure line of spells, up to Cure Critical, and perhaps a few other status removal/protection spells.

The closest to a class option that meets these requirements and almost gets the feel of a Red Mage would be the Arcane Duelist archetype for Bards. If it lost the bardic music, was given more damaging spells, and did not get heavy armor proficiency I would be happy with it, but alas.

Also, for those of you who are familiar with Final Fantasy and know the source for this inspiration, excellent! However, please keep in mind that I'm trying to get a famicom era type of Red Mage. Double Cast and en-spells need not apply. (Though perhaps one day as I bring the power level up to be in line these things can creep their way back into the build.)

Now that you know what I'm looking for, I'll post up what I have. I used Bard as a template to start with. Of core base classes, bard is closest to the essence of a red mage, so if you see any similarities to bard, that would be why! I tried to keep this core as much as possible, however there were some gaps in the spell list that had to be filled with spells from other source books. If a spell is not core, or one of the two homebrew spells I described at the end of the post, it can be found in either the APG, or Ultimate Magic. Thanks ahead of time for the review, and I look forward to seeing the comments and critiques all of you have! If you have any questions about the build or my logic behind any of my choices, please feel free to ask.


RED MAGE

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills: Acrobatics, Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge(All), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Stealth, Use Magic Device
Skill Ranks per Level: 4+ INT modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A red mage is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, and shortbow. Red mages are also proficient with Light and Medium armor and shields (except tower shields). A red mage can cast red mage spells while wearing light or medium armor and use a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.

Spells: Spontaneous and INT based.
BAB: 3/4 progression.
Saves: All Good.

Spells per day & Spells known progression: Same as bard.


Spell List

Level 0: Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Know Direction, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance, Stabilize

Level 1: Alarm, Animate Rope, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Confusion (Lesser), Cure Light Wounds, Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Grease, Hideous Laughter, Identify, Produce Flame, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Reduce Person, Remove Fear, Shield of Faith, Shocking Grasp, Silent Image, Sleep, Summon Monster I, Undetectable Alignment, Unseen Servant

Level 2: Alter Self, Animal Messenger, Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Bull's Strength, Calm Emotions, Cat's Grace, Cure Moderate Wounds, Daze Monster, Delay Poison, Detect Thoughts, Eagle's Splendor, Enthrall, Fox's Cunning, Frigid Touch, Glitterdust, Heroism, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Locate Object, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Misdirection, Pyrotechnics, Rage, Resist Energy, Silence, Sound Burst, Suggestion, Summon Monster II, Summon Swarm, Tongues, Touch of Idiocy, Whispering Wind

Level 3: Arcane Concordance, Bestow Curse, Charm Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Cure Serious Wounds, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Fear, Fireball, Gaseous Form, Glibness, Good Hope, Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Major Image, Phantom Steed, Protection from Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Scrying, Sculpt Sound, See Invisibility, Slow, Tiny Hut, Vampiric Touch, Web

Level 4: Break Enchantment, Cure Critical Wounds, Curse of Magic Negation, Dimension Door, Divine Power, Dominate Person, Freedom of Movement, Hold Monster, Ice Storm, Invisibility (Greater), Legend Lore, Locate Creature, Modify Memory, Neutralize Poison, Phantasmal Killer, Rainbow Pattern, Reduce Person (Mass), Secure Shelter, Shadow Conjuration, Shout, Spell Immunity

Level 5: Baleful Polymorph, Cloudkill, Cure Light Wounds (Mass), Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Dispel Magic (Greater), Flame Strike, Heroism (Greater), Holy Smite (et. all), Persistent Image, Raise Dead, Resonating Word, Seeming, Song of Discord, Spell Resistance, Teleport, Unwilling Shield

Level 6: Analyze Dweomer, Animate Objects, Chain Lightning, Charm Monster (Mass), Cure Moderate Wounds (Mass), Delayed Blast Fireball, Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Eyebite, Flesh to Stone, Freezing Sphere, Holy Aura (et. all), Invisibility (Mass), Irresistible Dance, Osmose, Power Word: Stun, Prismatic Spray, Programmed Image, Project Image, Slow (Greater), Word of Recall

- Gets Lore Master at 6th, increases once more per day every six levels at 12th and 18th level.

- Gets Jack-of-all-trades at level 12. All skills are considered class skills at level 18. Does not get the level 19 ability for Jack-of-all-trades.

Osmose (Spell): Causes the target to randomly lose one spell slot. The Red Mage then recovers a random spell slot of the target's lost spell slot level. If no spell slot is missing for that level, check the next lowest level. If no spell slots are missing for the target's lost spell slot or lower, then none of the Red Mage's spell slots are recovered. Will negates.

Slow (Greater): Same as slow, except the penalties to AC, Attacks, and Reflex Saves are increased to -2. (Debated increasing the save DC for this spell, but figured it already gets an additional +3 to the save DC by virtue of being a higher level spell.)

[KitsuneBoxing]

Ok, just to start off, if i was gm, i would let you play this with perhaps a few changes, to say that it is too good would be just silly since it does not have any class features besides the spells and the bard features you threw in there.

That said, in my mind it is, frankly, a bit boring in this incarnation, what with the lack of class features and total spell reliance. I think this will also make it quite difficult to feel good or even good enough in martial combat, your best option will probably almost always be to buff your friends and if you wanna use your offensive spells effectively then you need to up your int so much that there will be little over for your physical ability scores.

Here's what i would change:
- First of all, change the skill ranks to 4, what with them being so heavily int based they will get a lot of skills anyway.
- Do they need three good saves? It isn't grossly overpowered, more non-traditional, and i just don't see the reason for it.
- Nerf the spell list a little (which is very powerful at the moment), and give them either a healing class feature or some class feature that can increase the dc of their spells or the damage of their spells. If i was building the class i would see no real need to nerf the spell list just to put in another class feature but since you said you want it underpowered then removing from the list is the easiest thing to do. Since you want them to be good in combat i would probably remove some of the utility spells (detect secret doors, invisibility, silent image, charm person, et cet). In my mind this would make them more clear and defined, but maybe i'm misunderstanding the class idea? Isn't the idea to make a class that is good in combat, in offensive spells and in healing? This spell list speaks more of being a bard type jack of all trades that is at home in all situations than a more combat oriented class (to me anyway).

Ok, that's basically it. Hard to give tips for something that's supposed to be underpowered of course, but that isn't your fault. Once your group sees that homebrews don't have to leak burning oil and acid from every crevace you will hopefully be allowed to become a real boy and join the other classes in their wonderful club of class features and balance.

Just wanna add that i really like the class idea, in case i seemed harch or hateful. I just wonder if a duelist bard is actually the best simliarity to find. Are they not more like a magus that also gains cure spells? If so, then that would be a very easy archetype to create. Just laying it out there, in case you hadn't considered that.

Peace!

[Larkas]

I'm with KitsuneBoxing in this one. Magus (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcasters/magus.html) is already way closer to a Red Mage and just needs a nudge in the right direction. Just take a look at the class' features. 3/4 BAB? Check. Proficiency with longswords? Check. Ability to cast arcane spells in medium armor? Check (at level 7). Access to spells that deal respectable damage? Check. It only lacks access to healing spells. As such, you can brew a very simple archetype to cover for that. Something along these lines:



Red Magus

A red magus seeks versatility in combat. Seeing the importance of keeping their comrades in top condition, these magi sacrifice a bit of arcane power for access to a handful of healing spells.

Red Magus (Su)

At 1st level, the red magus gains access to a small number of healing spells. He learns and places stabilize (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/stabilize.html#_stabilize) and the spells from the Healing domain (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/cleric.html#_healing-domain) (up to 6th-level) into his spellbook as magus spells of their cleric level. Like normal magus spells, these are arcane spells. However, he can ignore the somatic component of these spells, casting them without the normal chance of spell failure.


Red Arcana

A red magus gains access to the following magus arcana:


Rebuke Death (Sp): The magus gains access to the Healing domain power of the same name. He treats his magus levels as cleric levels for the purposes of this arcana.


Healer's Blessing (Su): The magus gains access to the Healing domain power of the same name. The magus must be at least 6th level and must have already selected Rebuke Death as a magus arcana.


Greater Spell Access (Su)

At 19th level, the magus gains access to an expanded spell list. He learns and places 7 spells from the wizard's spell list into his spellbook as magus spells of their wizard level. He gains one of each of the following wizard spells not on the magus spell list: 0-level, 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, 4th-level, 5th-level, and 6th-level. He can ignore the somatic component of these spells, casting them without the normal chance of spell failure.

These replace the usual 14 spells a magus would gain access to with this class feature.



Spell Recall can also be used as a stand in for Osmose. If you need any further convincing, just look at the class' artwork at d20PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus#TOC-Magus-Arcana)! :smallbiggrin:

[PaladinJohn]

Thanks for the feedback!

I'll admit, I'm not too familiar with the Magus or any of the other new Pathfinder classes. I'm primarily a 3.5 player who just recently fell in love with the Pathfinder system. I do, however, remember quickly skimming through Magus, seeing no published builds that fit what I was looking for and moving on.

Larkas, I think your suggestion is probably the cleanest way to get this sort of build to work with what I'm looking for. I think I still want to construct a Red Mage class eventually that's much closer to the nuance of the actual class for my own campaigns. However, if I'm playing in a game with another DM, your solution is elegant and simple enough that it shouldn't cause any headaches.

Kitsune, to comment on a few of your suggestions for the class:

-After thinking about it, I agree that 4+INT modifier would be better for the class. As an INT based class, this puts it at Rogue levels of skill points, possibly more, and while Red Mage is supposed to have a skill element, it shouldn't overshadow either Bard or Rogue and should probably be closer to the Ranger teir.

-I wrestled with all good saves for a lot of time. I wanted to find a way to justify two good saves and one bad save which is the norm for many classes, but the more I looked at it, Red Mage embodied each of those aspects in one way or another. As a duelist, Fort and Dex are covered. As a Mage, Will is covered.

- The spell list does need an overhaul. I'm hesitant to nerf the spell list as it was the best way to bring the essence of the class to life, many of those spells were chosen after much consideration of how I can toe the line of useful healer, fighter, and magical blaster/support without excelling in any of those particular fields. However, one thing I do agree with you on is a lot of the non-combat utility spells. They really don't have a place in the build, and I was just trying to find some spells to round out the spell lists so some levels didn't become an anemic 10 spells with the player able to know 6 of them. If this were 3.5 and I had the wealth of all the resources at my disposal I'm positive I could find suitable spells to put in their place. I admit I'm still very green when it comes to Pathfinder, however, and I didn't want to pull all of the really good combat spells away from Cleric or Wizard. If you have any ideas for spells that would fit especially well for the concept I more than welcome them to help trim the fat! That said, I think this spell list is about the pinnacle of my comfort zone with power level. Any swaps would have to be some spells that wouldn't push this spell list any higher in power level.

Thank you both for the advice, I really appreciate it!

[Larkas]

Hey, I'm just glad I could be of help! :smallsmile:

[Ilorin Lorati]

@Larkas: Personally, I don't really like the way that archetype is setup. Front-load additional versatility in exchange for a penalty that the vast majority of characters will never see? That's really not a good solution to the issue of making a red mage.


In any case, even moreso than the ability to cast WHM and BLM spells, the iconic ability of the RDM is the ability to chain spells together innate, be it from "Dual Cast" (FFV) or "Chainspell" (FFXI). I'd highly recommend trying to work that in; as a recommendation, I'd say something that lets you cast a curative/status cleanse spell when you succeed at dealing damage with a spell or the ability to attack (with some other minor kicker) after healing.

Duelist has never been "Fort" to me, and in fact the class named after the character archetype is Reflex only, so I agree with Kitsune that three good saves aren't needed, and I'll add that I'm not really sure where you got the idea that a duelist is heavy fort, since just about every roguish class (rogue, duelist, bard, etc) has low fort.

[Tanuki Tales]

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[Larkas]

@Larkas: Personally, I don't really like the way that archetype is setup. Front-load additional versatility in exchange for a penalty that the vast majority of characters will never see? That's really not a good solution to the issue of making a red mage.

"Front-load"? You're giving away a handful of healing spells, for Pete's sake. They're remarkably sub-par. In a minimally optimized game, they're only good for giving access to wands of those spells. Regardless, you still have to reach the spells' levels to cast them. It's literally something done for flavor only. What would you rather do, give them for free at level 19?

I mean, I can understand what you're saying, and it would be the case for other, more useful spells. But for healing spells? I think it's good enough as it is. It's not unlike selecting Arcane Disciple as a feat, if this was 3.P.


In any case, even moreso than the ability to cast WHM and BLM spells, the iconic ability of the RDM is the ability to chain spells together innate, be it from "Dual Cast" (FFV) or "Chainspell" (FFXI). I'd highly recommend trying to work that in; as a recommendation, I'd say something that lets you cast a curative/status cleanse spell when you succeed at dealing damage with a spell or the ability to attack (with some other minor kicker) after healing.

Those go directly against the OP's wishes:


Also, for those of you who are familiar with Final Fantasy and know the source for this inspiration, excellent! However, please keep in mind that I'm trying to get a famicom era type of Red Mage. Double Cast and en-spells need not apply. (Though perhaps one day as I bring the power level up to be in line these things can creep their way back into the build.)

[Ilorin Lorati]

They also said they wanted something intentionally underpowered, and you turned around and gave them a stronger Magus - an already incredibly strong class. In any case, I posted realizing that my suggestion was probably going to be ignored as it was just a part of the larger point of the post - commentary of your archetype and the saves.

As far as your archetype does, you could get a gnat animal companion at level 1 instead and I'd still have the same comment about the archetype if it didn't give anything up until level 19.

[Larkas]

They also said they wanted something intentionally underpowered, and you turned around and gave them a stronger Magus - an already incredibly strong class. In any case, I posted realizing that my suggestion was probably going to be ignored as it was just a part of the larger point of the post - commentary of your archetype and the saves.

As far as your archetype does, you could get a gnat animal companion at level 1 instead and I'd still have the same comment about the archetype if it didn't give anything up until level 19.

He wanted an underpowered class so he wouldn't scare his DM and his fellow players, I gave him and underpowered archetype that builds upon an already existing class. And make no mistake, it is underpowered. Any Magus is better off with another 7 Sor/Wiz spells rather than 7 healing spells from the Healing domain. You could probably pick up 7 random spells at each level and still be much better off. It is such a sharp drop in power in the long run that it is arguably worth a very minor increase in versatility (definitely not power) in the short run.

Regardless, nothing about the Magus is "incredibly strong". Quite the contrary, it is an incredibly balanced class, landing squarely in T3. The only thing that can consistently break it is, you guessed it, access to choice Sor/Wiz spells. Anyways, your mileage might vary. I won't argue this point with you anymore.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I by no means meant to imply that Magus was overpowered. I understand and agree that it's fairly well balanced; that does not, however, mean it's not incredibly powerful. You're also misunderstanding what I'm saying about the archetype you posted.

For 18 levels it's stronger than base Magus. I don't care how bad healing spells actually are in the grand scheme of things, and that's not the point: adding options to a class in d20 without taking them away is adding power, without exceptions, full stop.

If the archetype forced the RDM to actually prepare a healing spell in every level instead of a standard magus spell, then you'd have a point that maybe this archetype was a little bit underpowered. It doesn't.


I won't argue this point with you anymore.

The funny thing is that you never even bothered to argue the point: you went out of your way to ignore what I was saying - that for 18 levels, the vast majority of playtime in d20, your archetype was stronger than than base option - and got defensive about it instead of actually defending it.

[Larkas]

The funny thing is that you never even bothered to argue the point: you went out of your way to ignore what I was saying - that for 18 levels, the vast majority of playtime in d20, your archetype was stronger than than base option - and got defensive about it instead of actually defending it.


It is such a sharp drop in power in the long run that it is arguably worth a very minor increase in versatility (definitely not power) in the short run.


Regardless, you still have to reach the spells' levels to cast them.

Class design can't be made in a vacuum. I think trading long term power for short term versatility is okay (and underpowered). You don't. There's not much more that can be said about it.