Character issues with a new gaming group.

[Trasilor]

I recently joined a new gaming group and was thrust into this scenario:

Level 5 martial character who - as part of the GM preamble - was sacrificed to some evil god/demon/cult. Began play with zero gear but was quickly outfitted with a sword and armor.

Combat ensues and our party kills the bad guy (loot a cheap gold necklace - 5gp). We then find ourselves transported to a major - somewhat hostile - city. At this point, my character literally has three possessions: armor, sword, gold necklace.

The story tells us to go on a specific quest - which is very dangerous. Without proper gear, it would probably be suicide. I feel like I am in a catch 22: I absolutely want to do this quest above everything else, but I need resources (i.e. do other adventures) to accomplish the task.

I tried (in game) to find a patron to fund the quest - I was rebuffed with the classic "You are an outsider, we will not help you". This felt like railroading.

I feel like I need to wait for the DM to provide for me (again railroading) rather than allow me to seek my own solutions.

Any thoughts? Anyone ever been put in a similar situation?

[Werephilosopher]

Did you agree beforehand for your character to lose all his gear at the start of the story? Did your fellow party members also lose their gear? If you lost your stuff and they didn't, and you didn't agree to it, it's definitely railroading- there's no reason you should have been given no chance to keep items that are owed to you in a game where all characters should begin with relatively equal levels of equipment.

If you did agree to it beforehand, you need to let it be known that you were under the impression your lost stuff would be easy to replace. If that doesn't work, demand to roll up a new character, but let it be statistically the same-just have all your stuff and don't agree to lose it this time.

If everyone lost their stuff, whether they agreed to it or not, it seems like getting more supplies is your first quest. But from what you said it doesn't sound like that's the case.

[John Longarrow]

Talk to the DM about it. See how you can get parity with the rest of the party.

In character, rather than seeking a patron, look for an employer. See if you can get a job (caravan guard/gladiator/escort/what ever) to get enough money to properly outfit yourself.

[Trasilor]

@Werephilosopher Yes I agreed to it, but was under the impression that it would be replaced soon. I was even told, when making my character to give him all of his equipment - magical weapons, armor, etc. Of course, 10 minutes into the game, I realized that I wasn't going to get back my gear and started erasing.

I (and another player) entered the game at session 2. The two original players not only have all their gear, but also they found magical gear in the last session. Thus they have even more wealth than I do.

We may get more supplies during the next quest, but that is relying upon the DM to give me stuff (i.e. railroading). I like it when I dictate when and how my character is equipped - in other words, I like it when I have control over some of my characters choices.

@John Longarrow That will be my next step. As I said, we are in a 'hostile' city - I have already got the "you're an outsider, we don't trust you" which makes me worried that an employer will be hard to come by.

The other problem is the quest is very important to my character. It would be like Frodo taking a side-job for some extra cash before setting off on his trip to destroy the One Ring. At least that's what it feels like.

Currently, I have had one session - we will see what the next session brings.

[Taffimai]

The quest might be less dangerous than it sounds, or it might involve stumbling over your new improved gear at some point before you reach the dangerous part. Being undergeared is frustrating, but give it another session or two before you give up on the DM.

[John Longarrow]

I'd start off seeing if I could at least sell the necklass to buy some cloths to wear and a blanket to sleep under. Sucks always running around in your armor.

[Trasilor]

I'd start off seeing if I could at least sell the necklass to buy some cloths to wear and a blanket to sleep under. Sucks always running around in your armor.

good point...never needed to actually price out clothing/blankets/etc before as I have never been this broke before. :smallamused:

[Red Fel]

We may get more supplies during the next quest, but that is relying upon the DM to give me stuff (i.e. railroading). I like it when I dictate when and how my character is equipped - in other words, I like it when I have control over some of my characters choices.

That's not technically railroading, at least not in the traditional sense. In fact, it's quite common to scavenge for gear (and marketable goods) in the field in these games. Your annoyance seems a bit hollow when it boils down to "I want the Magic-Mart and the DM won't give it to me."

Now, if you go on your quest and still don't get gear, then yes, I think your rage is justified. But right now, it sounds like you're annoyed that you're not getting specifically the gear you want, and I'm afraid I'm not feeling maximum sympathy for that position.

Being in control of your characters choices is not the same thing as being in control of the loot table, is what I'm saying.


The other problem is the quest is very important to my character. It would be like Frodo taking a side-job for some extra cash before setting off on his trip to destroy the One Ring. At least that's what it feels like.

It's a decision you have to make for your character. Is he the sort of person who is so devoted to his goals that he will pursue them, even if he is unprepared and likely to fail? Or is he the sort who will undertake an 80s montage, complete with power ballad, to prepare for his ultimate objective?

Frodo didn't have a choice about taking side jobs; but then again, Frodo was railroaded by basically every major power in Middle Earth. If you're not being railroaded directly into the main quest, taking care of business might be exactly what you need to prepare for your suicide run into Mordor.

[Mootsmcboots]

If you're in an already hostile town, head to a shop. Rob/kill/steal for the stuff you need.

Or if you got denied as an outsider, threaten some people.

Perhaps if you go through enough trouble to obtain supplies, and are persistent about it, the DM will get the point, or give some of his hand away regarding supplies being found during the quest

[Trasilor]

That's not technically railroading, at least not in the traditional sense. In fact, it's quite common to scavenge for gear (and marketable goods) in the field in these games. Your annoyance seems a bit hollow when it boils down to "I want the Magic-Mart and the DM won't give it to me."

Railroading in the sense I am letting the DM dictate rather than making my own choices. If I want this character outfitted with proper gear, then I will need too kill creatures which break the WBL treasure table - or find a secret buried treasure. Furthermore, I am currently behind, so I would need to get more wealth then my fellow party members. That can happen one of two ways, the DM give treasure that is tailored toward my character and the other players are altruistic (they allow me to gain more of a share). Or I go on solo quests - thus taking up both in game and out of game time.

I was trying to give the DM an out via a patron/sponsor - i.e. have a wealthy individual sponsor the quest. Sponsor get the MacGuffin, I get gear, other players can keep any loot found. If I was the DM, this would allow me to tailor the 'found' loot. DM could even tailor the gear given by the sponsor - it doesn't have to be perfect, just closer to what is appropriate for level 5 character.

If I was level 1 or 2, this wouldn't be a problem as I have level 1 gear. But level 5? I don't even have a masterwork weapon.


Being in control of your characters choices is not the same thing as being in control of the loot table, is what I'm saying.

I never argued this. My argument is that I have level 1 gear and I am level 5. How do I rectify this situation?


It's a decision you have to make for your character. Is he the sort of person who is so devoted to his goals that he will pursue them, even if he is unprepared and likely to fail? Or is he the sort who will undertake an 80s montage, complete with power ballad, to prepare for his ultimate objective?

I would totally do an 80s montage to prepare for quest or eminent battle. But I cannot montage equipment.

I guess my question boils down to this: Should I trust the DM?

I used to have the position that Magic - Marts did not exist. For whatever reason, I thought it took something away from the game. Then, I realized something. Not having Magic-Marts hurts characters who survive.

As a DM, if you use random treasure and follow the WBL player that survive encounters will either be severely behind in their appropriate WBL (50% sell rate) or outfitted with gear that is sub-optimal. Both situations are bad.

However, should a character die, the player can bring in a new character. The new character will have all the gear they need/want as appropriate to their WBL.

Finally, a lack of Magic-Mart hurts the classes that need it the most, non-spell casters. Spell casters do have the option of making their own specialized gear. Yes their is a gold cost, but at only half the rate as their martial counter parts. Yes their is an XP cost -but that is easier to come by than the gold needed. And of course their is a time component which can be time-skipped as necessary.

In the end it made me realize that a Magic-Mart doesn't unbalance the game.

In my games, big cities have several specialized 'stores' which function as a the Magic-Mart (upscale weaponsmith for magical weapons, etc.) while smaller towns have a middleman who works as a middleman between the buyers and sellers.

[Trasilor]

If you're in an already hostile town, head to a shop. Rob/kill/steal for the stuff you need.

Or if you got denied as an outsider, threaten some people.

Perhaps if you go through enough trouble to obtain supplies, and are persistent about it, the DM will get the point, or give some of his hand away regarding supplies being found during the quest

Hostile as in the powers-that-be do not like us. Also we are in a large city...that we don't know how to exit...inside a mountain...already in custody...with an escort...being monitored by the spies of the ruling council.

Unless I want this character to end up in some cold dark prison for a very long time, I need to stay on their good side. That, and I need them as allies.

[Bonzai]

Ideally I would talk to the DM privately, and voice my concerns. Either he will assure you that he has something planned, or you have just learned something about your new DM. Assuming he tells you to just deal with it, I would tell my party in character that you are not prepared to set out on such a dangerous mission just yet. You have a gold necklace that can buy you room and board for a day or two at a cheap inn, so you will need that time to try and find some odd work. As least until you can earn enough cash for some basic supplies. I would then go on and list some really mundane and inexpensive things; like a back pack, some rope, grapple hook, blankets, clothes, water skins, rations for the trip, a light source, etc... I'd be adamant about it. To the point that the DM is going to have to either cave in and give you some means to out fit yourself, or he can risk the game grinding to a halt for everyone as you hold your ground.

Sadly, this is not a great foot to start on in a new group. My hope is that the DM had something special in mind for you and intends to get your character wealth back to you. If he does, then he probably shouldn't have qualms about you getting some basic adventuring supplies.

I hate random loot as well. That's why in my games we don't even bother with actual loot. It is just assumed that the characters find and loot items of value during their encounters, sell it, and when they level they get an amount of gold to spend in accordance with the wealth by level chart. They are then free to spend it however they see fit, provided that they are in an appropriate place to spend their gold at. This solves so many problem. I don't have to be an accountant when designing encounters, there is no fighting over items, each party member gets an equal amount to spend at each level, I don't agonize over what gear to give my NPCs, and the players get more control over building their character which makes them happy. My group likes this so much, that they now do the same thing when they run games.

[lunar2]

That's not technically railroading, at least not in the traditional sense. In fact, it's quite common to scavenge for gear (and marketable goods) in the field in these games. Your annoyance seems a bit hollow when it boils down to "I want the Magic-Mart and the DM won't give it to me."

Now, if you go on your quest and still don't get gear, then yes, I think your rage is justified. But right now, it sounds like you're annoyed that you're not getting specifically the gear you want, and I'm afraid I'm not feeling maximum sympathy for that position.

Being in control of your characters choices is not the same thing as being in control of the loot table, is what I'm saying.



It's a decision you have to make for your character. Is he the sort of person who is so devoted to his goals that he will pursue them, even if he is unprepared and likely to fail? Or is he the sort who will undertake an 80s montage, complete with power ballad, to prepare for his ultimate objective?

Frodo didn't have a choice about taking side jobs; but then again, Frodo was railroaded by basically every major power in Middle Earth. If you're not being railroaded directly into the main quest, taking care of business might be exactly what you need to prepare for your suicide run into Mordor.

except the default assumption of the game, built right into all the tables in the DMG, is that you can get exactly the item you want as long as you are in a city of sufficient size. magic marts are not some specialized easy mode variant, they are the way the game was designed. anything else is actually railroading, because it limits player agency compared to the default game. and that's what railroading is, limiting player agency.

@ OP. you said the necklace was 5,000 gp. a 5th level character's WBL is 9,000 GP, so you are over 1/2 WBL. spend it wisely, and you should be fine. after that, budget your consumables, and you'll catch up quickly. also, remember that trade goods, including jewelry, sell for full price, not half. that 5,000 gp necklace is actually worth 5,000 gp to you.

[VoxRationis]

except the default assumption of the game, built right into all the tables in the DMG, is that you can get exactly the item you want as long as you are in a city of sufficient size. magic marts are not some specialized easy mode variant, they are the way the game was designed. anything else is actually railroading, because it limits player agency compared to the default game. and that's what railroading is, limiting player agency.


Poppycock. The availability of items in the world is a factor of the setting, and aspects of the setting can limit player agency as well, and you don't scream "railroading" whenever your character can't march 200 miles due west because there's an ocean 30 miles out. The game is a role-playing game, with things like storylines and coherent, logical consequences of one's circumstances. It's unreasonable to expect level-appropriate treasures to fall from the sky if you manage to level up in a way that wouldn't acquire treasure.
That said, your DM should definitely allow that there are certain mundane necessities, even if he doesn't give you your magic weapons back. (He should probably find some way of doing that, though. If he didn't want you to have your magic gear, he should have just not let you put it on your character sheet in the first place.)
I agree with Taffimai; the quest might be like in computer games where they always SAY the low-level quests are dangerous just to make you feel more heroic. Where did you learn it would be dangerous?

[lunar2]

Poppycock. The availability of items in the world is a factor of the setting, and aspects of the setting can limit player agency as well, and you don't scream "railroading" whenever your character can't march 200 miles due west because there's an ocean 30 miles out. The game is a role-playing game, with things like storylines and coherent, logical consequences of one's circumstances. It's unreasonable to expect level-appropriate treasures to fall from the sky if you manage to level up in a way that wouldn't acquire treasure.
That said, your DM should definitely allow that there are certain mundane necessities, even if he doesn't give you your magic weapons back. (He should probably find some way of doing that, though. If he didn't want you to have your magic gear, he should have just not let you put it on your character sheet in the first place.)
I agree with Taffimai; the quest might be like in computer games where they always SAY the low-level quests are dangerous just to make you feel more heroic. Where did you learn it would be dangerous?


Every community has a gold piece limit based on its size and pop-
ulation. The gold piece limit (see Table 5–2) is an indicator of the
price of the most expensive item available in that community.
Nothing that costs more than a community’s gp limit is available
for purchase in that community. Anything having a price under
that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magi-
cal. While exceptions are certainly possible (a boomtown near a
newly discovered mine, a farming community impoverished after
a prolonged drought), these exceptions are temporary; all commu-
nities will conform to the norm over time.

relevant text bolded. Magic mart is the default. exceptions are possible, but temporary, and all communities conform over time. so yes, by the rules all large cities contain at least one copy of every item 40,000 gp or less available for sale, if not right at that moment than eventually. maybe the PC has to figure out who has it, and maybe it has to be crafted first, but one way or another, the PC can get that item from that city if he waits long enough. have fun telling an elan he can't have the specific item he wants. he can just stand there until he gets it, and then what's the DM going to do?

understand that all settings that conform to the default rules will eventually reach equilibrium. low magic settings are temporary, as are low level settings. nothing short of changing the basic assumptions of the game can make those limiting situations permanent. unless the DM is breaking the rules, eventually the PCs are going to get exactly what they want. and if the DM is actively breaking the rules to keep the PCs from having level appropriate gear suitable for their needs, that is a jerk DM.

besides, all that is general stuff. in this case, two of the PCs do have level appropriate gear, while the 3rd is being artificially held back, and being told no, you can't have the stuff you're supposed to have before you go on this difficult quest. that most definitely is railroading, because the player was led to believe he would quickly get his gear back, but was lied to.

[Dr.Gara]

Combat ensues and our party kills the bad guy (loot a cheap gold necklace - 5gp).



@ OP. you said the necklace was 5,000 gp. a 5th level character's WBL is 9,000 GP, so you are over 1/2 WBL. spend it wisely, and you should be fine. after that, budget your consumables, and you'll catch up quickly. also, remember that trade goods, including jewelry, sell for full price, not half. that 5,000 gp necklace is actually worth 5,000 gp to you.

No, he didn't say that.

[lunar2]

huh, i could have sworn i saw a 5,000 there. my bad. your DM's a jerk for lying to you, and forcing you to be way behind the rest of the party. seriously, if your character had gear before you took control, that gear should have been in the facility you were found in.

[ArendK]

huh, i could have sworn i saw a 5,000 there. my bad. your DM's a jerk for lying to you, and forcing you to be way behind the rest of the party. seriously, if your character had gear before you took control, that gear should have been in the facility you were found in.

It was 5 gold, not 5k gold.

I've had GM's do this to me before; it does get frustrating and old fast. Some DM's craft it where it isn't a big deal and the gear-loss is either inconsequential (for instance, not having any weapons in all social encounters) or quickly recovered. But that is a rarity and not the majority. Most GM's who pull this are trying to reign in all the power and make players lives difficult; it's fine to take away gear and make a player be resourceful; but don't penalize them being resourceful.

For instance, I had a GM where he ran a campaign where we were all run-away slaves. No gear except what we could intelligently scavenge. If it made logical sense, he'd allow it.
He also scaled encounters down drastically where they still challenged us, but weren't overpowering despite our power shortage. Honestly, it was among the more entertaining campaigns I've been in overall as it was constantly a game of survival and thinking; we kept track of food, water, and other basic supplies as a valued resource.
While evading our captors (really kind of hard to do when you've got a half-orc Barbarian with 8 intelligence and 6 charisma, an elf sorceror with an obsession with necromancy (money was tight, so it was mostly Ray of Enfeeblement and the like), a paladin with an apparent deathwish, and a fat gnome priest), keeping someone on watch was important, and every set of hunting dogs made our life a living Abyss.

It CAN make a fun game, but it's got to be fair, and the GM has to know what he's doing. The players also have to be open to it, and those are three things that don't always go well together.

[shadowseve]

The quest might be less dangerous than it sounds, or it might involve stumbling over your new improved gear at some point before you reach the dangerous part. Being undergeared is frustrating, but give it another session or two before you give up on the DM.


I agree with this 100%. It may be part of the story to get your gear back or better gear than you had. Give the dm a chance and see where he goes. I believe in giving the dm the benefit of the doubt before getting mad.

[Trasilor]

Thanks for the support all :smallsmile:

I agree that I need to give the DM another shot. If, during game play it becomes "You must go on your quest IMMEDIATELY" then I will - in game - talk about how poorly outfitted I am for such an endeavor and I need to do some side jobs.

[John Longarrow]

Thanks for the support all :smallsmile:

I agree that I need to give the DM another shot. If, during game play it becomes "You must go on your quest IMMEDIATELY" then I will - in game - talk about how poorly outfitted I am for such an endeavor and I need to do some side jobs.

I'd talk to the DM prior to the game. If the DM is trying to do something they see as "Creative and Fun" but you don't like, it would be better to find a new game rather than leave on a bad note. If after talking to them they understand where you are coming from and agree to get you gear in game (may be a little delayed due to story) then there shouldn't be a big issue. If you haven't talked to them and they were planning to have a good way for you to reequip, but you make it hard to get that far in the game, that could make things end badly.