Snatch/Deflect Arrow vs Nat 20

[ImaDeadMan]

In one of my sessions, the party's archer fired an arrow at an enemy with the Snatch Arrow feat. The archer rolled a nat 20 which means it automatically hits, but the feat says "Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect or catch it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed".

The question is: What takes precedence?

[ArendK]

I'd go with the feat. Sure, it's a hit;

Nothing says the hit has to be spectacular or can't be nullified. What happens when you crit against something with obscene DR? A critical doesn't negate DR.

Just my two cents.

[ImaDeadMan]

I'd go with the feat. Sure, it's a hit;

Nothing says the hit has to be spectacular or can't be nullified. What happens when you crit against something with obscene DR? A critical doesn't negate DR.

Just my two cents.

That's what I thought would be correct, however I decided to give this one to the players because it was a difficult encounter. I'm mostly curious as to what the Playground thinks in regards to this question so I'm open to hear arguments for both cases for the purpose of future rulings.

[Thorvaldr]

I concur with ArendK. The feat says once per round you may catch or deflect an arrow. It doesn't say that you get +10 AC against the attack, or that 10 is subtracted from the attack roll.

However, I also agree that you're allowed to DM that it hits regardless when you want though, that's part of the joys of being a DM! :P But by rules, I think the feat would win, and you'd be allowed to play it that way in the future with no griping allowed from the player.

[Vhaidara]

Feat beats roll. Thread not about the specific instance, so spoilering my original response to avoid derailment

I'm in the campaign, so I have a bit more knowledge.

I would normally be in favor of the feat, except that he was flat footed (the archer won initiative and this was the first round of combat). Yes, he had Uncanny Dodge, but that doesn't change the fact that he was flat footed. He just doesn't lose his Dex bonus for being flat footed.
If you ever do this in the future, I will be in favor of the feat taking precedence over crit. But not when the feat doesn't apply.

[ImaDeadMan]

I'm in the campaign, so I have a bit more knowledge.

I would normally be in favor of the feat, except that he was flat footed (the archer won initiative and this was the first round of combat). Yes, he had Uncanny Dodge, but that doesn't change the fact that he was flat footed. He just doesn't lose his Dex bonus for being flat footed.
If you ever do this in the future, I will be in favor of the feat taking precedence over crit. But not when the feat doesn't apply.

That's precisely why I gave it to you guys... I was asking the Playground for their opinion on the matter for future cases. The specific instance where it came up is irrelevant. I'm simply asking about the feat vs the roll, not whether my ruling in that instance was correct. I'm well aware of the the requirements for the feat to work.

[Vhaidara]

:smalltongue:

Yeah, which is why I followed up with that I agree that the feat beats the roll.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yep. Clear as glass. Deflect arrows cannot be used while flat footed.

"You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed."

If he was flat footed, he can't use the feat. He may maintain his dex to AC, but he is still flat footed.

When it works though, it works regardless of the attack roll.

[ImaDeadMan]

Yep. Clear as glass. Deflect arrows cannot be used while flat footed.

"You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed."

If he was flat footed, he can't use the feat. He may maintain his dex to AC, but he is still flat footed.


Yes I know this, hence, why it worked in the party's favor. I'm not even sure why Keledrath brought it up. Once again, I was simply asking the opinion of other people on the matter of feat vs roll, not whether "person being shot is flat-footed" and so forth.

Edit:
Sorry if I sound rude. I don't mean it to come across that way. I'm just trying to avoid derailment :)

[ericgrau]

Ya feat beats roll. A nat 20 is just a hit.

Plus if you get too crazy with nat 20s and nat 1s, they become a big problem that will come up several times. In a game with hundreds of rolls, they're way more common than you might think. They're just a hit and a miss, that's it and that's plenty. In extreme cases, they're not even supposed to be a hit or miss.

[HighWater]

I'd like to add, other than that all those above are in the right (feat trumps autohit), that the arrow-catcher should decide to catch/deflect after being informed of the hit, but BEFORE finding out the hit might turn into a crit. Not often relevant, but when aware that he's facing two ranged attackers and in the know that one is likely to do more damage than the other on a normal hit, he might decide to save his arrow-catching for the higher damage roller, only to get critted by the other guy.

[ImaDeadMan]

I'd like to add, other than that all those above are in the right (feat trumps autohit), that the arrow-catcher should decide to catch/deflect after being informed of the hit, but BEFORE finding out the hit might turn into a crit. Not often relevant, but when aware that he's facing two ranged attackers and in the know that one is likely to do more damage than the other on a normal hit, he might decide to save his arrow-catching for the higher damage roller, only to get critted by the other guy.

I actually kind of like that ruling and I'll probably use that in the future if it comes up. Thank you

[Khedrac]

I'd like to add, other than that all those above are in the right (feat trumps autohit), that the arrow-catcher should decide to catch/deflect after being informed of the hit, but BEFORE finding out the hit might turn into a crit. Not often relevant, but when aware that he's facing two ranged attackers and in the know that one is likely to do more damage than the other on a normal hit, he might decide to save his arrow-catching for the higher damage roller, only to get critted by the other guy.
And I will disagree with this - the arrow catcher has to decide if he is going to deflect/catch the arrow before he knows if it is a hit or not. Once the arrow has hit it's a hit and damage occurs (there was a thread asking about using an interrupt spell after you know you have been hit and it's the same answer).

Yes the Feat trumps the natural 20, but in theory the deflect should be declared after the attack is declared but before the attack roll is made. Yes this is not usually very practical but it is easy to be honest about which arrow was going to be deflected and not to base it on the attack roll.

Also in the case of a volley attack (e.g. manyshot) I personally rule that it it random which arrow is deflected - so it might be the one with sneak attack, but it probably won't be.

Edit: On re-reading the feat I find that I am wrong. How odd - that feat reverse cause and effect which is naughty. OK I agree with the above - you have to decide before you know damage if you are deflecting the attack.