Psionic Attacks

[TheNervyOne]

Ok so things like Energy Ray (1rst level Psionic power) deals 1d6+1d6 per power point spent to increase it. Ok at low level that means you can do some nice easy damage for the cost of 1 power point so at level 2 you can make it 2d6 of fire, ice, shock, etc. But at level 10 when youi manifest this level 1 power it still only does 1d6 right? It doesn't increased based on manifester level does it?

The description at least says nothing that I could see.

So are all Psionic powers like this? If you attacking via a psionic power is utterly worthless outside of low levels because you have to waste even more resources then a caster does.

[Rubik]

Ok so things like Energy Ray (1rst level Psionic power) deals 1d6+1d6 per power point spent to increase it. Ok at low level that means you can do some nice easy damage for the cost of 1 power point so at level 2 you can make it 2d6 of fire, ice, shock, etc. But at level 10 when youi manifest this level 1 power it still only does 1d6 right? It doesn't increased based on manifester level does it?

The description at least says nothing that I could see.

So are all Psionic powers like this? If you attacking via a psionic power is utterly worthless outside of low levels because you have to waste even more resources then a caster does.The base cost of any power is based on its level, so an unaltered level 1 power always costs 1 pp, just like a level 1 spell always costs a level 1 slot. The costs of metapsionics and augmentation are added onto this, but you gain those benefits in exchange.

One's manifester level does improve the efficiency of some powers, both due to normal scaling benefits (range and duration, namely) and for a few auto-scaling powers (such as Psionic Minor Creation) that retain the same cost but increase dramatically in potency throughout the levels. However, that doesn't affect the minimum of how many power points can be spent on the power -- though it does increase how many you can choose to use in augmenting it.

[Zombulian]

Ok so things like Energy Ray (1rst level Psionic power) deals 1d6+1d6 per power point spent to increase it. Ok at low level that means you can do some nice easy damage for the cost of 1 power point so at level 2 you can make it 2d6 of fire, ice, shock, etc. But at level 10 when youi manifest this level 1 power it still only does 1d6 right? It doesn't increased based on manifester level does it?

The description at least says nothing that I could see.

So are all Psionic powers like this? If you attacking via a psionic power is utterly worthless outside of low levels because you have to waste even more resources then a caster does.

You're right. So the way that powers work is that they don't auto scale like spells do with caster level. You control how many power points you put in, but you max at your manifester level.

[TheNervyOne]

lets look at Corrosive Touch which does 1d4/Level and is a level 1 spell.

If I am a level 5 Wizard and I cast Corrosive Touch I am dealing 5d4 and it still only costs me a level 1 spell slot.

However for a level 5 psion to manifest a Energy ray they must expend 5 PP which is the 2 points higher then a 2nd level psionic power normally manifests.

A Recall Agony deals 2d6 by spending 3 power points and with another 2 points makes it 4d6.

They don't seem to be adding up for the augmentation value. For powers with a lot of effects this is fine but for something like a energy ray which just deals damage this is too much.

So why is it worth it?

[Zombulian]

I think it generally comes down to Psionic characters having more effective spells per day than vancian casters just by power point total alone, as well as a little more control over the amount of resources they want to spend on a certain act.

[Rubik]

lets look at Corrosive Touch which does 1d4/Level and is a level 1 spell.

If I am a level 5 Wizard and I cast Corrosive Touch I am dealing 5d4 and it still only costs me a level 1 spell slot.

However for a level 5 psion to manifest a Energy ray they must expend 5 PP which is the 2 points higher then a 2nd level psionic power normally manifests.

A Recall Agony deals 2d6 by spending 3 power points and with another 2 points makes it 4d6.

They don't seem to be adding up for the augmentation value. For powers with a lot of effects this is fine but for something like a energy ray which just deals damage this is too much.

So why is it worth it?Direct damage is rarely worthwhile for a caster of any stripe, unless the effect in question has rider-effects to further weaken their targets. Even one-shotting an enemy is rarely worthwhile (barring truly powerful targets which need taken down ASAP), since a fighter or a summoned creature or an AoE BFC effect can usually affect the fight beyond that single one-shot-kill.

Note, however, that Energy Ray remains potentially useful and effective all the way into epic, whereas Burning Hands quickly peters out. A 17 pp manifestation of Chained Energy Ray [Fire] deals more damage to groups of creatures than Meteor Swarm (barring having every space in the Meteor Swarm packed with enemies, anyway), and an Unchained manifestation deals far more to a single enemy (and even more when Empowered). And all that without a single save to reduce damage, while also overcoming energy resistances more readily.

[TheNervyOne]

Except a spell caster doesn't need to waste extra slots to empower up a fireball to do higher then a 1d6.

Yes they can cast more powers per day then a caster normally can unless they have to augment a power up to higher levels which is where this kind of makes them even or lets the casters still out strip them.

[Rubik]

Basically, every power a psion gets is potentially a 9th level equivalent power, but he must pay for that by actually, y'know, paying for it.

[TheNervyOne]

Except a power like Energy Ray at 20th level can be made a 20d6 power for sure at the cost of 20 points of psionic power. Where a 9th level power is 17 points without augmenting.

So while true it costs more then a spell would.

[Rubik]

Except a power like Energy Ray at 20th level can be made a 20d6 power for sure at the cost of 20 points of psionic power. Where a 9th level power is 17 points without augmenting.

So while true it costs more then a spell would.And a psion with +5 in ML boosters can manifest the equivalent of a 12th level spell, using most of the powers in his repertoire. Can a sorcerer gain 25d6 with a Fireball? How about 15d6 with a Magic Missile?

Basically, sorcerers only gain 3 9th level spells known at 20th level, while psions essentially get 36. It's a tradeoff.

[Red Fel]

Basically, every power a psion gets is potentially a 9th level equivalent power, but he must pay for that by actually, y'know, paying for it.

Pretty much this. Psions get flexibility in their powers - if you don't want to waste your strongest abilities, you don't have to. You can make them as strong or not as you'd like, and this can make a Psion a very efficient caster. By contrast, a more traditional caster's spells are pretty much automatically juiced. Which means if you're facing an enemy who's barely worth your time, you have to waste a precious prepared spell or spell slot just to take care of business. It also creates a greater risk of overkill - a lot of parties have stories about that one casting of Fireball that wound up almost killing half of the party.

Power points give you even more versatility than spell slots do, at the cost of having to manually increase your caster level. But when you consider the fact that a 20th-level Wizard has a total of 40 spells per day (bonus for high Int), a 20th-level Sorcerer has 60 (bonus for high Cha), and a 20th-level Psion has 343 PP per day (bonus for high Int), things start to look impressive. If a traditional arcane caster exhausts his low-level spells, he is forced to either waste high-level spells, use Wands or other devices, or sit around twiddling his thumbs. A Psion has never exhausted his low-level spells. If he decides he wants to deal 5d6 damage (plus bonus based on type) with mildly augmented Energy Rays all day, he can do that every round for nearly seventy rounds. That's more rounds than most arcane casters have spells per day.

And as others have mentioned, direct-damage spells aren't everything. Being able to spend points on any power you know is a huge advantage, one shared by Sorcerers. But again, a Sorcerer's slots are precious, and generally fixed in size; a Psion's slots are variable.

[TheNervyOne]

Not saying Psionics don't have a benefit but I am saying direct damage powers are almost not worth it if you need a maximized power to do the damage needed.

Of course a lot of the other subtle effects work very well for those who know how to use them. Telepath Disciplines and such can make a lot out of a little without spending much of their PP.

I was just making sure I was understanding this. This is why I liked to combo Psionics with Martial because you can do damage two ways and don't need to lay on pp to give that one annoying monster,

[Rubik]

Not saying Psionics don't have a benefit but I am saying direct damage powers are almost not worth it if you need a maximized power to do the damage needed.

Of course a lot of the other subtle effects work very well for those who know how to use them. Telepath Disciplines and such can make a lot out of a little without spending much of their PP.

I was just making sure I was understanding this. This is why I liked to combo Psionics with Martial because you can do damage two ways and don't need to lay on pp to give that one annoying monster,Yeah, direct TV damage isn't usually the way to go for caster-types, as I said. There are exceptions, even in psionics (see: Swarm of Crystals for being practically unblockable, and a properly utilized Energy Conversion for excessively extreme efficiency (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319269-Psicrystal-advancement&p=16598926&viewfull=1#post16598926)).

[Tohsaka Rin]

This is, of course, not taking things like Psionic Shot (and its greater version) into account.

1pp on an Energy Ray, Fire is nice. 1d6 fire damage.

1pp and expending your psionic focus? 1d6 fire damage, +2d6 for Psionic Shot.

The reason (and possibly the best part) why this works, is that Psionic Shot functions with ANYTHING that requires a ranged attack roll.

ANYTHING.

Personally, I love the Throw Anything, Greater Psionic Shot, Fell Shot combo. (Add Pyrokinetic for extra cheese) Hello Gambit impression!

EDIT; Typo.

[Red Fel]

Not saying Psionics don't have a benefit but I am saying direct damage powers are almost not worth it

Full stop. Same holds true for all caster types, not just psions.

At higher levels, it's not about the numbers. It's about stopping the enemy from acting, ASAP, whether that's by killing them outright or simply by locking them down. When enemies have save-or-die, save-or-suck, or worse, no-save-just-suck abilities, it's no longer a question of your DPS. It's a question of stopping them from triggering armageddon.

Many of the more optimized builds focus on tactical abilities, rather than direct damage ones. But for sake of argument, let's try that. Using only spells and powers that deal direct damage (so no ability damage or indirect damage abilities like summons), and only ones from the SRD. Unsurprisingly, at higher levels these seem to thin. Here are some decent ones, though. Fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm), Wiz/Sor 3, deals 1d6/CL (max 10d6) fire damage in a 20 foot radius, reflex half. Contrast that with Energy Burst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyBurst.htm), Psion 3, deals 5d6 damage of a descriptor of your choice in a 40 foot radius, centered on you, save for half. Bonus effect based on type. For 1 PP augment, increase the damage by 1d6; for every 2 PP used, increase the save DC.

From the first level you can use it, Energy Burst beats Fireball in almost every respect. It has a higher base damage, has a changeable energy type, and has bonus effects. As the Wizard or Sorcerer levels up, his spell deals another d6. You can augment yours to deal another d6 and have a harder save. The Psion's PP/day accumulate faster than the Wizard's CL. The one downside is that the radius is centered on you rather than at range.

But let's not forget another key detail. At level 20, the Wizard can use his Fireball 4 times a day. The Sorcerer, 6 times. To augment his Energy Burst to do the same amount of damage as a CL 10 Fireball, the Psion needs to spend 5 extra PP, for a total of 10 PP. At level 20, the Psion can use his augmented Energy Burst 34 times per day. He could instead augment it further, spending a number of PP up to his manifester level - augmenting it to deal damage beyond the Wizard's Fireball.

If you're looking for pure numbers, the Psion can still win.

[Immabozo]

And there are nice little tricks. Like a favorite of mine at mid levels was to stun a target, and then the level 1 un-agmentable power, Deja Vu, save or repeat last round, which they were stunned and did nothing, so will repeat doing nothing. for 1 PP

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You spend 1 powerpoint to deal 1d6 damage, ten times, or you spend 10 powerpoints to deal 10d6 damage once, the cost is the same.

A 1st level Wizard spell deals a maximum of five times the damage it's capable of when he's 1st level, and he often needs to be 9th level to achieve that (Magic Missile, Lesser Orb spells). So a Wizard 9 casts a Lesser Orb of Fire to deal 5d8 (average 22.5) damage, while a 9th level Psion uses Energy Ray to deal 9d6+9 (average 40.5) damage if using fire or cold.

You spend more than an automatic-scaling 1st level power's powerpoint cost on this power, but the total number of powerpoints you get takes these costs into consideration, plus it's considerably more versatile than using spell slots. While a high level Wizard still has quite a few 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. level spell slots that he cannot spend on anything better, a high level Psion can spend every powerpoint he has on his highest level powers, so you shouldn't need to cast Energy Ray unless it's exactly the right tool for a given situation (finishing off a troll with fire damage, or breaking an object with sonic damage). Just casting Energy Ray to deal damage to an opponent is one of the most inefficient uses of your powerpoints, and it's a very bad example of the efficiency of psionic powers in general.