How common are WBL games, anyway?

[Black_Zawisza]

I've played under four DMs in my time (three from one gaming group, one from another) and I've never actually played in a game that came remotely close to the wealth-by-level table. It wouldn't be as bad if they exceeded WBL (IMO) but it's always below, without exception. And that really disappoints me, given that I've never had the opportunity to experience an entire category of D&D features, magic items. :smallfrown:

In my current game, we just turned level 3 but our party of six has about 800 gold between us. According to the WBL table, we should have TWENTY TIMES that.

It's pretty much the entire reason I never play anything but full casters. I would LIKE to play something lower-tier, but without access to magic through items, I've found playing a mundane character to be INCREDIBLY boring.

I'm sorry, I know this is kind of a rant, but does anyone understand where I'm coming from? How might I go about persuasively asking my DM if she could up party wealth a bit (I'm a bit of a socially awkward penguin)?

[Zombulian]

A friend of mine always makes us extremely poor whenever he DM's. I'm never really sure why he does it, except maybe as a way to keep the power gap between the optimizers of the group and the rest of the players a little smaller, since the non-optimizers tend to not put the time into a cohesive build, never mind buying magic items.

[Doc_Maynot]

Last ditch method, start running Vow of Poverty until the gold amount you guys get start to outweigh it's benefits?
Let them know that the benefits of the feat are greatly out matched by what players are supposed to have from items at the respective levels.

First ditch method, show them the table and talk to them about how is the recommendation of what players are supposed to have.

[John Longarrow]

In the games I run I normally keep to WBL pretty well.. Some times your up, some times your down.

I also treat your ECL as the average between your character level and the WBL of the gear you've got. So if you are a 3rd level character with 100gp worth of gear, I treat you as 2nd. If you a 10th level character with 14th level gear, your treated as 12th. Yes I've needed these rules in the past, especially when dead character gear gets shuffled around.

[Zombulian]

In the games I run I normally keep to WBL pretty well.. Some times your up, some times your down.

I also treat your ECL as the average between your character level and the WBL of the gear you've got. So if you are a 3rd level character with 100gp worth of gear, I treat you as 2nd. If you a 10th level character with 14th level gear, your treated as 12th. Yes I've needed these rules in the past, especially when dead character gear gets shuffled around.

That's an interesting way to work with things I suppose. So if someone in the group falls behind in treasure then you give them some bonus XP?

[Rubik]

A friend of mine always makes us extremely poor whenever he DM's. I'm never really sure why he does it, except maybe as a way to keep the power gap between the optimizers of the group and the rest of the players a little smaller, since the non-optimizers tend to not put the time into a cohesive build, never mind buying magic items.Unfortunately, this often makes things worse, rather than better. Any optimizer worth his salt can compensate for low WBL, while those who can't, don't, which further widens the gulf.

Furthermore, optimizers tend to know which classes can be effective without money (or can just make as much money as they want to via class features, rendering the DM's control of WBL moot), while, again, those who can't, don't, and exacerbate the problem even more.

[Zombulian]

Unfortunately, this often makes things worse, rather than better. Any optimizer worth his salt can compensate for low WBL, while those who can't don't, which further widens the gulf.

Furthermore, optimizers tend to know which classes can be effective without money (or can just make as much money as they want to via class features, rendering the DM's control of WBL moot), while, again, those who don't, don't, and exacerbate the problem even more.

I didn't say it was a good plan :smalltongue:. Just postulating as to why he would do that, because it's been frustrating before, but otherwise his campaigns are decently fun.

[Black_Zawisza]

Unfortunately, this often makes things worse, rather than better. Any optimizer worth his salt can compensate for low WBL, while those who can't, don't, which further widens the gulf.

Furthermore, optimizers tend to know which classes can be effective without money (or can just make as much money as they want to via class features, rendering the DM's control of WBL moot), while, again, those who can't, don't, and exacerbate the problem even more.
I will freely admit that I'm not an optimizer worth my salt. :smallbiggrin:

My current DM is the sort that wouldn't smite my character's wealth away if I obtained it fairly. Could you (or anybody reading this) offer me some advice on how to use 2nd level spells to breed some cash cows?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Most of my D&D campaigns have been at least a bit over WBL actually. The mechanics didn't particularly matter in some of those, but still.

In the last under-WBL game I played, I think the GM was trying to make magic items "special," so he'd give a big splashy less-useful item instead of the staple +stat and cheap utility stuff. For instance, my wizard got a +1 Tome of Understanding, his only non-consumable magic item he received in the whole game, and couldn't sell it. It wasn't really about control, just... theme I think. It still didn't work like he wanted, though. He would have been accidentally crushing us in fights if it weren't for the druid and the wizard.

[Summerstorm]

Well, i prefer my characters to matter more, not the equipment.

"Oh no, we could really need some heroes who lug around equipment which could defeat the ghastly dragon"

So i like low-gold/Equipment games. Overall our groups are slightly under WBL (too much for me) by following the modules pretty much to the letter (Our DM is like that).

[Ikeren]

I write most of my stuff for 2-4 times WBL on the premise that 1) it helps melees and 2) lots of stuff will be misused/forgotten/sold for low value/bought at higher value.

[Rubik]

I will freely admit that I'm not an optimizer worth my salt. :smallbiggrin:

My current DM is the sort that wouldn't smite my character's wealth away if I obtained it fairly. Could you (or anybody reading this) offer me some advice on how to use 2nd level spells to breed some cash cows?Selling services, for one. If you're 3rd level, 0 level spells cost 5x3=15 gp for others to buy from you. 1st level spells cost 30 gp. 2nd level spells cost 60 gp.

How many spells per day do you get, exactly?

And there are always the various [Creation] spells, which you can cast and sell the effects of, especially if you use, say, Charm Person, to get a better deal.

You can cheat at gambling using Mage Hand, or use it to pickpocket.

And you can also use your spells to craft, both in magic item creation and in mundane crafting. Look up some spells to help you boost your Craft checks and improve crafting times. Technically, you can craft gold directly, since 1 gp can be crafted into 3 gp, but don't forget that there are a lot of other goods which can be used directly as currency without even selling it (see: salt and Wall of Salt/Flesh to Salt).

[Malroth]

Its a common fallacy, the DMG warns of the horrors of the Mounty haul campaign yet doesn't mention how certian gear assumptions were written into the monster manual for each challenge rating. Thus DM's coming in from older editions or going solely by the written guidelines are told to be stingy with the loot.

[John Longarrow]

Zombulian

Yes, if you have too much in good gear you get less XPs and if you have too little, you would get more. Often this isn't based only on what A character has as much as the WBL the group also brings.

As an example, if you character has half their WBL but the party spell casters are over and using the excess to buff you with spells, you don't get extra XPs.

Black_Zawisza
Sell Lanterns with Continual Flame on them.

[Story]

I've played under four DMs in my time (three from one gaming group, one from another) and I've never actually played in a game that came remotely close to the wealth-by-level table. It wouldn't be as bad if they exceeded WBL (IMO) but it's always below, without exception. And that really disappoints me, given that I've never had the opportunity to experience an entire category of D&D features, magic items. :smallfrown:

In my current game, we just turned level 3 but our party of six has about 800 gold between us. According to the WBL table, we should have TWENTY TIMES that.

It's pretty much the entire reason I never play anything but full casters. I would LIKE to play something lower-tier, but without access to magic through items, I've found playing a mundane character to be INCREDIBLY boring.

I'm sorry, I know this is kind of a rant, but does anyone understand where I'm coming from? How might I go about persuasively asking my DM if she could up party wealth a bit (I'm a bit of a socially awkward penguin)?

I've never been in a strict WBL game, but I've never been in a really low gold one either. In my experience, wealth tends to swing wildly both above and below WBL due to the DM not keeping track of WBL at all and just using pre generated loot. Searching dungeons extensively and being able to craft stacks the odds in your favor though. Usually when you fall behind WBL, it's because you're leveling faster than the adventures expected. My favorite is one time when I managed to obtain a Hathran Mask of True Seeing at level 9 (admittedly crafted for half price).

[Rubik]

And don't forget that only spellcasters can create alchemical items, which are very much in demand. Boost and Craft and sell, man. Boost and Craft and sell.

[Brookshw]

Last time I bothered to glance at it I think the pc's were q good margin above. Personally I just roll the charts and maybe your above, maybe your below, the dice gods shall decide (baring maybe an occasional special placed mcguffin).

[Mootsmcboots]

Is it a new DM? Iam a new DM, same spot lvl 3, and it was brought to my attention last session that my party is woefully under funded.

This wasn't intentional. Just wasn't providing enough loot. My thing was trying to get lvl 1-3 pcs an acceptable amount of loot and have it fit with whats happening in game.

I could have just said at the end of the session "Here's x amount of gold, and these items" but thats cheesy.

[Alex12]

My group tends to be at or above WBL. My just-hit-third-level Dread Necromancer has something like 20000 gp worth of equipment right now (turns out being undead means you can walk along underwater in the reef that recently had a bunch of shipwrecks, and collect stuff that sank).
Basically, the guy who's currently DMing and I (the only two people with the interest and skill to DM) are both fairly generous, and feel that if you can justify doing something to make money in-game, we'll allow it.

[OldTrees1]

My games start at WBL and stay relatively close to WBL. This is in part because I determine what gets dropped based on the expected wealth increase the players would get for the related encounter. Sometimes I mess up and they sell a magic item for half value that I did not expect would get sold. Every once in a while I double the expected wealth of an encounter to adjust for these mistakes of mine.

[Magesmiley]

I've played under four DMs in my time (three from one gaming group, one from another) and I've never actually played in a game that came remotely close to the wealth-by-level table. It wouldn't be as bad if they exceeded WBL (IMO) but it's always below, without exception. And that really disappoints me, given that I've never had the opportunity to experience an entire category of D&D features, magic items. :smallfrown:

In my current game, we just turned level 3 but our party of six has about 800 gold between us. According to the WBL table, we should have TWENTY TIMES that.

It's pretty much the entire reason I never play anything but full casters. I would LIKE to play something lower-tier, but without access to magic through items, I've found playing a mundane character to be INCREDIBLY boring.

I'm sorry, I know this is kind of a rant, but does anyone understand where I'm coming from? How might I go about persuasively asking my DM if she could up party wealth a bit (I'm a bit of a socially awkward penguin)?

So, I'll ask a question first: how thoroughly are you looting things? Not all treasure is gold and gems.

Take everything that isn't nailed down. Then knock anything loose that you can which is nailed down. Take it all. Not getting every gp you can in loot is the fastest way to reduce your WBL.

The parties that I've played in tend to be very good at looting and as a result nearly never have a low WBL issue. I've also DMed for groups that aren't too good at this and their WBL tends to be lower.

Some tips:
The obvious ones are weapons, armor, and other equipment. Most humanoids (which tend to be a staple for the low levels) usually have gear. Take all of it that you can manage. Stash what you can't and come back with some mules to get the rest (or even bring the mules with you in the first place). Furniture, foodstuffs, chests, even traps are worth grabbing.

Anyone have ranks in taxidermy or tanner - monster hides might be worth something too. Get creative.

One of your highest priority items should always be an extradimensional space to improve the amount of loot that you can carry.

The other side of things is to try to use your resources efficiently. Wands are almost always a better investment than potions. Are people needlessly using items and consumables? Use reusable magic items first, then spells before wands and wands before potions. Weight spells with high cost material components very carefully before deciding to cast them.

One other thing to watch out for is PC thieves. I've played (and DMed) in more than a few groups where some of the PCs aren't above stashing an item or two if they can get away with it. This increases that PC's WBL, but generally reduces that of the other PCs.

[Windstorm]

when I DM I nearly always go over WBL, and simply actually use the item availability restrictions (not everything is available everywhere) to avoid having magic items I feel are unbalanced enter the playing field. this allows for martial classes to get the gear support they need, and casters usually end up using it on spell research and scrolls for extra flexibility (I also remove the xp cost on scrolls for fairness sake)

on that note, for prospective DMs: make sure if you get a wizard that you hold them to their accounting for extra scribing cost, along with controlling spell availability. usually (hopefully) the player is able to self-moderate power levels, but in some cases the above methods can really help to moderate the impact of the class in lower-op environments.

[Rubik]

Another thing is, when you clear out a dungeon, go through and scour it of any dangers that might have been missed the first time around. Take 20 and spend spells on looking for traps and secret doors. Kill everything that could be dangerous and can't be somehow leashed for additional security. Clean up spilled blood, dirt, and hazardous materials, and find a way to clean the place up. Spend spells to make it look nice, such as Calling a lantern archon to cast Continual Flames for you on the torches in the sconces. Touch up the place with inexpensive conveniences, such as cheap replacements for anything you found ruined when you got there (or ruined yourself, in clearing the place's previous occupants).

Then, sell the dungeon.

Real estate is insanely expensive by the D&D guidelines (ie, millions of gp for even a simple keep). Find someone interested in buying it, and sell it to them. Forgery can help with this, giving you the deeds to the places you "acquire."

Then head out to the next dungeon complex.

If your DM complains, say that you're tired of not having appropriate Wealth By Level, and he can change that or shut his yap. (...in a nice way, of course.)

[Coidzor]

I will freely admit that I'm not an optimizer worth my salt. :smallbiggrin:

My current DM is the sort that wouldn't smite my character's wealth away if I obtained it fairly. Could you (or anybody reading this) offer me some advice on how to use 2nd level spells to breed some cash cows?

Unseen Crafter, a 2nd level Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric/Bard spell from Races of Eberron gets you an unseen servant that'll use the craft skill on your behalf, which allows you to spend 1/3 the gold to make something and then sell it for 1/2 gold, giving you effectively 1.5 times what you invest into it. IIRC its modifier should be around 7-9 depending upon your casting stat and whether you're 3rd or 4th level, and it can take 10. Can't remember if you can get it to do the Craft as a Profession skill check thing or if you can have more than one going at once, but it's something that goes for days and requires one spell slot, so there's that, even in the case where you can only have one up at a time.

[Slipperychicken]

It's pretty much the entire reason I never play anything but full casters. I would LIKE to play something lower-tier, but without access to magic through items, I've found playing a mundane character to be INCREDIBLY boring.

We call them "mundane" for a reason :smalltongue:

Also because nonmagical D&D characters often have fewer options than their real-world counterparts. IRL, takedowns, grabs, choke-holds, disarms, limb-locking, and other such maneuvers are quite important to fighting (and you don't need to be a kung-fu master to knock your opponent to the floor or wrestle his weapon away without getting skewered -such techniques are quite basic). Real people almost never trade blows until one of them falls over. Additionally, fighters and their ilk tend to have far fewer skills than a real-world soldier could expect to possess. And don't even get me started how a combatant could wield a glaive perfectly, but be utterly perplexed by a naginata, to the point that he takes a -4 with the latter.

[Kennisiou]

Honestly I have no idea how you wind up being below WBL with gear, since the WBL is meant to be the average amount of wealth you get from rolling for loot. Do they just keep sending you to fight monsters that have little to no loot? Do they just not roll loot for monsters that should have it?

[Oko and Qailee]

When I DM I frequently look at sheets and calculate WBL. I mostly care about how the party WBL matches up (since some classes need items more), but overall I tend to keep all my players pretty filled with dinero. They like it, and it's no problem for me, other than a bit more work making sure I calculate their wealth right.

[Bonzai]

In my group, the games are pretty much strictly wealth by level. The reason being is that we don't bother with actual loot. It is assumed that while you are adventuring you are grabbing and selling anything of value, and at each level up the players get an amount of gold equal to what is indicated in the Wealth by Level chart. They are then free to spend it at any major town however they see fit. This solves a lot of problems. Having to be an accountant as well as a DM, players fighting over loot, players feeling slighted by random table rolls, players not being able to equip their character effectively, etc.. I find it to be a fair way to do it, and it skips a lot of headaches. My players love it, and have started doing the same in their games. Sure it takes away the excitement of opening a chest and not knowing what treasure you find inside, but it is overshadowed by the excitement my players have over being able to outfit their characters how they like.

[Slipperychicken]

Honestly I have no idea how you wind up being below WBL with gear, since the WBL is meant to be the average amount of wealth you get from rolling for loot. Do they just keep sending you to fight monsters that have little to no loot? Do they just not roll loot for monsters that should have it?

I have't seen many GMs who actually roll on the treasure tables. Many simply have their mooks drop stuff like the classic "longsword, with precisely the same stats as a fresh-off-the-shelf longsword, but will only fetch a few coppers' scrap value when sold because it's lower-quality in some vague aesthetic sense."

[Vhaidara]

My GM tend to try and set us to WBL every couple of levels, if we're below.

One of them has never had to because we pulled a bit of BS.
When we entered our most recent hub city (last 4 levels), we did so under the guise of a merchant group. We had a lot of weapons, and the city was at war, so we established a merchant stall. Which we then managed to argue meant that we were the merchant, and therefore were able to sell at full price instead of half. Then my gnome bard was able to diplomacy us an extra 10%. So whenever we get gear now, we are able to sell it at 110% market value. So a +1 sword is worth 2530+base weapon price, rather than 1150+half base weapon price.

[Ansem]

Almost always WBL, otherwise in a few occasions poor. Never got above WBL.

[Rubik]

The DM I played with IRL the most was one of those people who would give one or two players numerous artifact items (which, naturally, only they could use), while everyone else got shafted. The first time I joined a game, he got really annoyed that I had full WBL at level 16, but he'd never said anything about it in his list of houserules, and so was forced to bring everyone else in the group up to snuff with treasure. Of course, the two players who had eight artifact weapons and two sets of artifact armors (and several artifact rings of three Wishes) each got full WBL, too.

I didn't care for his games, honestly (not the least of which was because he had an average of 12 players at a time), but that was the only group I knew of, so...

[dascarletm]

The DM I played with IRL the most was one of those people who would give one or two players numerous artifact items (which, naturally, only they could use), while everyone else got shafted. The first time I joined a game, he got really annoyed that I had full WBL at level 16, but he'd never said anything about it in his list of houserules, and so was forced to bring everyone else in the group up to snuff with treasure. Of course, the two players who had eight artifact weapons and two sets of artifact armors (and several artifact rings of three Wishes) each got full WBL, too.

I didn't care for his games, honestly (not the least of which was because he had an average of 12 players at a time), but that was the only group I knew of, so...

That's incredibly lame.

As a DM I don't go out of my way to increase or decrease WBL. I just roll off the tables, and let the players do as they wish. I tend to make my games more sand-box in that regard. If the group thinks they need more treasure, they usually make attempts to find monsters with larger treasures (triple standard anyone?) or whatever other means they can conceive to get more cash. I don't allow some of the tricks I see on here to get arbitrarily higher amounts of gold though, but I've never had anyone actually try it either so...

Sometimes my group will be behind, due to poor rolls or fighting a larger volume of low dropping encounters, and the fact that they leave equipment on the floor doesn't help them so much.

[Socratov]

I haven't really checked it, but I'm fairly certain the games I played in have gone far above it. And I don't mind. (I only spend it stupidly anyway). To me booty, loot and spoils of war are the reason to adventure. You literally get rich or die trying. Though to me the story matters more then the mechanics. As long as everyone has equipment enough to function (mundanes desperately need their equipment while casters don't really) all is fair to me.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, I should probably mention that I have a bard who has not bought a single item since we started at level 3. We're level 9.

Wait, no, I spent 10 gold on a horn for the Inspire Courage buff. But yeah, I have 30k banked. We're going to fight a Cancer Mage soon. I am actually buying the entire party Periapts of Proof Against Disease.

[Rubik]

Yeah, I should probably mention that I have a bard who has not bought a single item since we started at level 3. We're level 9.

Wait, no, I spent 10 gold on a horn for the Inspire Courage buff. But yeah, I have 30k banked. We're going to fight a Cancer Mage soon. I am actually buying the entire party Periapts of Proof Against Disease.A wand of Lesser Restoration (made by an archivist, off the paladin's spell list) would be much cheaper, and diseases are pretty much a non-issue, except mummy rot.

[Vhaidara]

GM is using homebrew diseases coming from Talona. So better safe than sorry.

Also, using my business model, I'll then be able to turn a profit selling them to the population of another town, worried that this plague might come to their city. I'm CN to the core.

[dascarletm]

(I only spend it stupidly anyway).

My favorite type of spending is the "stupid" spending.


Best purchase by a player: 100k gold (almost half his total worth) on his in game daughters wedding.

[Rubik]

GM is using homebrew diseases coming from Talona. So better safe than sorry.Might I suggest a maneuver item with Iron Heart Surge? You can even share the one amongst the party.


Also, using my business model, I'll then be able to turn a profit selling them to the population of another town, worried that this plague might come to their city. I'm CN to the core.Well, there is that, I guess. But still.

[Vhaidara]

ToB isn't being allowed. It's a low magic setting, so it wasn't needed to balance things. And then the GM forgot to tell the new guy it was low magic and he showed up with a Sorcerer.

[Slipperychicken]

Wait, no, I spent 10 gold on a horn for the Inspire Courage buff. But yeah, I have 30k banked. We're going to fight a Cancer Mage soon. I am actually buying the entire party Periapts of Proof Against Disease.

Why not just cast Cure Disease after the fight? That would be a lot cheaper, and I doubt there are many diseases which are going to complete incubation in the handful of rounds before you can cast it. If you don't know, just make some Knowledge and Gather Information checks to figure out how long it takes.

Also, Cure Disease deals 1d6/CL (Fort save for half) against a cancer mage, shuts down his tumor familiar for 24 hours, and functions as a fort save-or-die if it's in disease form. If you're feeling mean, spend that money instead on +1 spell storing weapons (one or two batches of 50 arrows should be sufficient), and load them up with Cure Disease. Have the melee guys compute damage output between cure disease arrows and their normal weapons (ammunition can be drawn and dropped as a free action, so they can make Cure Disease melee full-attacks. They only take TWF penalties if they try to get extra attacks from it). After you're done looting the Cancer Mage's body, have PCs hit themselves with the remaining spell storing weapons to cure themselves. This is even better if your GM rules that arrows used in melee aren't automatically broken (which means you can re-use them later).

[Immabozo]

I had a DM that wouldn't give me, or even let me buy, a custom magic item that was a special bag of holding that was always filled with halflings I could throw (War Hulk let me throw 50 pound boulders for moderate damage) and he said no, its game breaking, too good.

But then two sessions later, my friend, who he liked a lot better than me, he gave a +3 fullplate that was an intelligent item with cure moderate wounds 3/day, a few other spells a number of times per day, a +30 on spot and listen checks and fly at will. Easily over 100k in that one item. at level 13 or 14.

I hated that DM with a passion. He always wanted to nerf me (like making the jump check on my Leap Attack to jump over his phalanx's front line, a full round action). but then buff the living daylights out of my friend, who he liked a lot and was an old arm and national guard buddy.

/rant

[Hangwind]

Well, look at it this way: you get the unique experience of having a vow of poverty be a good choice!:smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

WBL is one of those things that comes automatically when you read the rules systematically with no enforcement required, but a surprising number of people approach D&D, a game with textbook-sized rulebooks, as a game with rules that can just be guessed intuitively. I don't really understand where that comes from, but there it is.

[VoxRationis]

Well, the wealth-by-level tables are posited as suggestions, if I recall correctly (and I'll expect a quote if you intend to contest the issue).
As far as playing fast and loose with the rules go, if the game could be satisfactorily played purely through looking at the rules, you wouldn't need a DM at all. Computer role-playing games do this, and it is through such games that we see the limitations that come with that sort of by-the-book play. Sure, they're fun, but there's all kinds of things that you can do in a tabletop game that you can't do when your "DM" is purely limited to consulting the rulebooks.

Oh, and most of the games I have played in or DMed have been lower than WBL, with the general assumption being that magic items available for sale are the exception rather than the rule. We once had to break into a temple to get a simple amulet of nondetection.

[TuggyNE]

Well, the wealth-by-level tables are posited as suggestions, if I recall correctly (and I'll expect a quote if you intend to contest the issue).

Urpriest was, I think, referring to the standard treasure tables, which, if you plot a reasonable mix of by-the-rules encounters, give something over WBL (presumably to compensate for consumable use and loss of items).

[Zanos]

I try to keep my players fairly close to WBL, but it usually gets screwy when I either give them too much or too little and forget where they'r'e supposed to be at. So I'll run no or high treasure encounters for a bit to keep them around where they need to be.

WBL is a pretty important measurement of what characters are capable of, and as borked as the CR system is it was built to account for the fact that players would have access to certain items or effects at certain levels.

[Averis Vol]

I like to think I'm not stingy as a DM. In fact, I know I'm not, but sometimes my PC's either completely skip over or are incredibly weary of loot. An example being with my current level 5 group. Last session they found 60k worth of synthetic gems....That were funds to build war machines whos blue prints were stolen by the local crime syndicate. I have every intention of letting them keep that loot, the problem is though, 1) they have to find someone willing to buy it and 2) have to not get murdered by an organisation that is proven to have both freaky cultists from beyond the spheres, diviners and combat powerhouses of the martial adept variety :smallbiggrin:

[Abithrios]

In my group, the games are pretty much strictly wealth by level. The reason being is that we don't bother with actual loot. It is assumed that while you are adventuring you are grabbing and selling anything of value, and at each level up the players get an amount of gold equal to what is indicated in the Wealth by Level chart. They are then free to spend it at any major town however they see fit. This solves a lot of problems. Having to be an accountant as well as a DM, players fighting over loot, players feeling slighted by random table rolls, players not being able to equip their character effectively, etc.. I find it to be a fair way to do it, and it skips a lot of headaches. My players love it, and have started doing the same in their games. Sure it takes away the excitement of opening a chest and not knowing what treasure you find inside, but it is overshadowed by the excitement my players have over being able to outfit their characters how they like.

That sounds like a lot less hassle, as long as the players trust the DM not to give the enemies too much gear. Some groups may like the safeguard provided by the fact that almost every piece of equipment the enemies use against them will end up in the players' hands.

[Story]

That sounds like a lot less hassle, as long as the players trust the DM not to give the enemies too much gear. Some groups may like the safeguard provided by the fact that almost every piece of equipment the enemies use against them will end up in the players' hands.

I wish my games were like that. It amounts to the same thing since we always sell everything we find and use the money to craft better gear anyway.

Also, it's easy to give enemies gear that can't be used by the players if you want to.

[Urpriest]

Urpriest was, I think, referring to the standard treasure tables, which, if you plot a reasonable mix of by-the-rules encounters, give something over WBL (presumably to compensate for consumable use and loss of items).

Exactly. You don't need to even think about WBL most of the time. If you as a DM want to know how much treasure to give the players, the first place you would look is in the rules for how much treasure each monster gives, and unless you're heavily biased towards certain types of monsters that's going to stick you pretty close to WBL.

If you intentionally try to avoid WBL, you have to intentionally modify the treasure system, or create one of your own. That requires a lot of thought, and effort. You might be doing something more suited to your group in the end, sure, and that is indeed the advantage to having a human DM. But most DMs aren't doing that. Most DMs who fall above or below WBL haven't figured out their own treasure tables or thought about balance, they've just somehow not noticed that the game has rules for generating and balancing treasure, despite the fact that, had they read the rules in the same way they would have read any board game, it would have come up the very first time they made an adventure. That's what annoys me: the persistent impression people have that D&D DMs are somehow allowed to be lazier about knowing the rules than a family playing Settlers of Catan.

[SiuiS]

I've played under four DMs in my time (three from one gaming group, one from another) and I've never actually played in a game that came remotely close to the wealth-by-level table. It wouldn't be as bad if they exceeded WBL (IMO) but it's always below, without exception. And that really disappoints me, given that I've never had the opportunity to experience an entire category of D&D features, magic items. :smallfrown:

In my current game, we just turned level 3 but our party of six has about 800 gold between us. According to the WBL table, we should have TWENTY TIMES that.

It's pretty much the entire reason I never play anything but full casters. I would LIKE to play something lower-tier, but without access to magic through items, I've found playing a mundane character to be INCREDIBLY boring.

I'm sorry, I know this is kind of a rant, but does anyone understand where I'm coming from? How might I go about persuasively asking my DM if she could up party wealth a bit (I'm a bit of a socially awkward penguin)?

Games that start at level one, roll d4s and multiply by ten, tend not to advance strictly along any sort of "chart", no. But there are legitimate ways you can literally make money.

I want to point out though; talk to your DM. See, if you don't have a bunch of magic and gear, they might want a game where the plucky protagonists grit their teeth and bear through trials like steaming jungles and harsh deserts, without saying "I have endure elements, let's keep moving". In which case, you're causing a positive feedback loop. E'ery time the DM checks to see if the game is going according to plan, your full caster says no, no it's not. So they push harder.

Work with them and see what happens. :smallsmile:





And if that doesn't work, get a wagon, and ranks in craft (materials, smithing, gold smithing) and turn a single gold coin into 1*3*3*3= 27 gold minimum with a few days' downtime. If you get creative, you can use artistry to boost the DC to get more money in the end. Just sell your work and you'll catch up. :smallwink:

[NichG]

In the last campaign I ran, I gave the players significant control of their rate of advancement both in terms of 'wealth' and in terms of 'levels'. Its interesting to see what happens when you basically give players the ability to defer level-ups as long as they want.

Most players would rather grab the levels than wait so they'll be at a proportionately higher degree of wealth, even if it means encounters will get more difficult.

[weckar]

I tend to balance out the small rewards with the big. If a party is below WBL by 4th level, you can bet they will somehow get their hands on a galleon.

[weckar]

In the last campaign I ran, I gave the players significant control of their rate of advancement both in terms of 'wealth' and in terms of 'levels'. Its interesting to see what happens when you basically give players the ability to defer level-ups as long as they want.

Most players would rather grab the levels than wait so they'll be at a proportionately higher degree of wealth, even if it means encounters will get more difficult.

People CAN defer leveling up, if they want. Sometimes this is done to be able to craft bigger items, but nowhere is it said that you NEED to level up when you reach an experience bracket.

[Sith_Happens]

Every campaign I've been in so far has had at least standard treasure totals in the longer-term, though the actual distribution over time has varied considerably from one to the next (e.g.-occasional giant piles vs. smaller but more frequent amounts).

One of the campaigns in question did start off "low-wealth/magic" due to the DM being used to less gear-centric systems, but once I pointed out that that was likely to end up causing problems he didn't seem to have a problem fixing it (though the explanation itself ended up having to be quite lengthy and thorough).

[Doug Lampert]

Last ditch method, start running Vow of Poverty until the gold amount you guys get start to outweigh it's benefits?
Let them know that the benefits of the feat are greatly out matched by what players are supposed to have from items at the respective levels.

First ditch method, show them the table and talk to them about how is the recommendation of what players are supposed to have.

I would specifically NOT show them the WBL table.

I'd point to the rewards chapter and ask them to ACTUALLY randomly roll treasure rather than just giving you less. Or to run a module and give what it says to give, or whatever. As urpriest points out, WBL is emergent from the rules without ever using the table. You find loot, you sell some, you craft some, you burn some expendables, you are going to be close enough over the long run baring an implausibly unlikely set of good or bad rolls.

In the long run you'll be selling a lot of items for half value, but in the long run you'll also be crafting a lot of stuff for half price unless you live in the implausible world of constant adventure with never 8 hours off, at which point you also get to have your pure caster write the greatest "What I did on my summer vacation" report ever when he hits level 20 prior to his 18th birthday after a whole 63 or so days from earning his first XP.


And don't forget that only spellcasters can create alchemical items, which are very much in demand. Boost and Craft and sell, man. Boost and Craft and sell.

Note that if the GM won't let you sell for more than half because you can't find customers, you can still craft for the party.

At 1/3rd price for alchemical items and half price for magic items most parties in a low wealth game will take that deal and wait around while you craft.


Is it a new DM? Iam a new DM, same spot lvl 3, and it was brought to my attention last session that my party is woefully under funded.

This wasn't intentional. Just wasn't providing enough loot. My thing was trying to get lvl 1-3 pcs an acceptable amount of loot and have it fit with whats happening in game.

I could have just said at the end of the session "Here's x amount of gold, and these items" but thats cheesy.

What are the PCs doing? My experience is that if the PCs go out and fight dire threat X despite it not having any loot, it's normally because someone asked them to do so. So that someone PAYS them a reward. [Edited to add: Actual medieval and earlier rulers were often wary of getting a reputation as cheapskates, they didn't actually have a bunch of people who did what they were told because they were on salary, they had a bunch of people who did what they were told because they expected there to be a reward drop every few years. This means they needed to drop rewards occasionally or watch as their power disappeared.]

Saving the village is nice, and it's perfectly reasonable for there to be a cash reward.

If they're not saving the village then they should be looking for loot, so they find it. People often find what they look for.

[Story]

at which point you also get to have your pure caster write the greatest "What I did on my summer vacation" report ever when he hits level 20 prior to his 18th birthday after a whole 63 or so days from earning his first XP.


Reminds me of one game I was in where we learned that an insane evil god would be returning to the world in the near future so we decided to fight the most over CRed challenges we could to level up rapidly in preparation. Of course we also did a lot of crafting, handwaved that it happened in a special fast-time room built for that purpose at the magic institute.

[Coidzor]

In the long run you'll be selling a lot of items for half value, but in the long run you'll also be crafting a lot of stuff for half price unless you live in the implausible world of constant adventure with never 8 hours off, at which point you also get to have your pure caster write the greatest "What I did on my summer vacation" report ever when he hits level 20 prior to his 18th birthday after a whole 63 or so days from earning his first XP.

New Campaign Idea Get! :smallbiggrin:

[NichG]

People CAN defer leveling up, if they want. Sometimes this is done to be able to craft bigger items, but nowhere is it said that you NEED to level up when you reach an experience bracket.

Generally speaking this would be pretty metagamey (aside perhaps from item crafting stuff). In the particular campaign I ran, leveling up was controlled not by XP but by a specific promotion system associated with an in-world organization. The PCs could basically apply for promotion at any time, given a particular set of prerequisites, so they could directly decide how fast they wanted to level based on how directly they pursued the prereqs. Similarly, there were very concrete ways to 'go out and get more wealth'.

So basically when the PCs had full control of both those knobs, they ended up being under wealth. Not by a huge amount, but enough that there were times when people were scrounging to buy stuff.

[Bonzai]

That sounds like a lot less hassle, as long as the players trust the DM not to give the enemies too much gear. Some groups may like the safeguard provided by the fact that almost every piece of equipment the enemies use against them will end up in the players' hands.

DM and player trust is always important, and I think I've earned that pretty well. My group has three VERY experienced players, and one new player in training. I may very well go above NPC wealth values for certain key fights, but it usually averages out in the end. This way I get to focus on the encounters instead of being an accountant for my players wealth, which I always found tedious and didn't add much to the players enjoyment either. I'd rather be able to focus on interesting fights and villains with gear that makes sense for them, without having to contrive a series of loot less encounters to balance things out latter. It just avoids a lot of headaches.

[Firechanter]

Oh yes, how well I can relate! I've had several DMs who totally ignored WBL. They basically just don't understand that gear in 3.X is not an optional treat, but an integral part of the game balance.

If you find yourself in such a situation, with a DM who thinks for some reason or other that it's cool to keep you on a short leash in terms of gear, your best options are:

1. Don't play.

2. If you have to play, be a Full Caster, such as a Cleric.

I used to put up with nonsense like that and coped by playing Clerics, who as item-independent as it gets in 3.X. Nowadays, I simply skip that kind of group. But I know how it is, when you don't have much choice you may want to jump at any chance of gaming. As the saying goes, beggars can't be choosers.

Example from my experience:
In one group I used to play in, the DM was really a mixed bag. On the one hand, he was very generous in term of char creation and development. For example, if you found a cool PrC you didn't know before, it was no problem to retroactively change your character so you could qualify for it.
On the other hand, WBL was quasi nonexistent. Sometimes we didn't find any treasure worth mentioning over several levels, and when we did, it was unevenly distributed. At one point around level 9, the party Rogue had items worth >100.000GP, while the poorest party members had less than 10K to their names. And so forth. Sometimes we had cash, but there was no way to spend it. It got more and more annoying over time.

--

Of course, you can't expect to _always_ be exactly on WBL par. Sometimes the DM may have a good reason to keep you short for a level or so -- for instance, to "make room" for an awesome weapon with a high property cost. But usually you can tell if a DM is keeping you short for a limited time or as a permanent policy.

[weckar]

My problem, from a DM perspective, is that it is often unreasonable especially at early levels that encounters hide such bounty at all. I personally tend to use a fast experience progression, making it even harder to keep up.

I WANT to give WBL, but the encounters often make it impossible. I don't do dungeoncrawls.

[Doc_Maynot]

I'm really confused as to most of this thread, you mean you guys DON'T have players that organize heists when they feel they are low on money?

[weckar]

Actually, that did happen once. Then they drowned in sand. Wasn't pretty.

[Urpriest]

My problem, from a DM perspective, is that it is often unreasonable especially at early levels that encounters hide such bounty at all. I personally tend to use a fast experience progression, making it even harder to keep up.

I WANT to give WBL, but the encounters often make it impossible. I don't do dungeoncrawls.

Eh, most of the time it's not so ridiculous, you just have to make the treasure make sense.

For example, let's do two generic Orcs, an EL 1 encounter. They have standard treasure, so the pair has 300gp of valuables between them. Falchions are already worth 75gp, so that takes up half the treasure already. Their Studded Leather is 25gp, so another 50gp total. So we only need to fill 100gp. They're proficient in heavier armor, so switching out one suit of Studded Leather for, say, Chainmail would cover the difference with a bit extra. On the other hand, that can also easily be covered by one or two gems that the Orcs recently stole from somebody. Not too hard to fill in.

Your basic low-level game is going to be some mix of "monster"-ish humanoids like these Orcs, which are easy to treasure-up properly, bona-fide NPCs with triple treasure just from their basic gear, and things like wolves and zombies that don't have treasure. Each one NPC covers you for two wolf/zombie encounters, so as long as you're moderately careful with the plot you should be fine.

Honestly, it's hard to do these things at higher levels, when many monsters are assumed to have lairs where they've hidden some Standard treasure that don't make sense unless they're in a stereotypical dungeon. At lower levels it's pretty easy as long as your story has people in it, and if your story doesn't have people in it maybe it ought to anyway.

[HighWater]

My problem, from a DM perspective, is that it is often unreasonable especially at early levels that encounters hide such bounty at all. I personally tend to use a fast experience progression, making it even harder to keep up.

I WANT to give WBL, but the encounters often make it impossible. I don't do dungeoncrawls.

To add onto Urpriest's suggestions:
Nobody said you have to hand out the treasure earned in encounters during encounters.
Have the PCs roll a spot check while traveling or exploring, every once in a while. Have them find an indication that something was buried nearby (a patch of ground that doesn't look exactly right, tracks that lead to a place, stay there for a bit, then lead back, that sort of stuff). They find a box, have them roll some stuff to open it and tadaaa some extra treasure! Thieves and robbers as well as innocent peasans bury their valueable goods often, until they need them, it's not that hard to justify finding something every now and again. The PCs may stumble across an old and partially complete skeleton, some of its gear still nearby, obviously killed by animals. A crack in the rocks reveals some uncut gemstone the PC's may wiggle loose. Etc. etc.

This is what I do to make sure the PCs stay on WBL:
For every XP given out by a monster, PCs should receive a GP too. (A CR1 monster gives 300xp and 300gp treasure, on average.) I track how many xps I have handed out and have planned to hand out, I also track how much gp I have handed out and have readied for finding. If there's a discrepancy, I fix it!
Calculate the total xp handed out during all your planned encounters. Equal this to GP to be handed out in one form or another. Deduct gold for gear that the PCs will find from humanoid encounters. Divide the rest up as extra treasure amongst the encounters that can support them fluffwise, as well as "hiding" some loot in places and manners that have a good chance of PCs finding it. Presto, WBL, without having wolves running around with pouches of gold in their mouths and zombies having excess Onyx buried in their skulls. Also, zombies can still carry gear from their previous life, provided their creator has no reason to remove it.

[weckar]

I get all that. But, somehow, it just doesn't add up. EL 1, 300GP. Fine. Now we are talking 4 players who each need to attain 900 GP by 2nd level. Now, assuming they are willing and able to loot every encounter (they won't be), that is 12 encounters during 1st level. Reasonable thus far. Except, my group manages to play at most once every two weeks. And with luck we manage to squeeze in one combat every session, less if it is RP heavy. So, that means that if everything goes exceedingly well, they'll be lv 2 after half a year of relatively boring fights because there's nothing interesting to throw at them at lv 1 that won't instantly kill them.

Thanks, WBL!

[Twilightwyrm]

Funny, almost without exception, pretty much every game I've played in the party has exceeded WBL, often to a drastic degree. This is due to a combination of us typically having only 2-3 as opposed to 4-5 party members, player shenanigans (which should almost go without saying), having some awesome luck on random treasure rolls, and for many of the adventures, still using the random treasure table in the first place. All in all, it does not seem to have overly effected the balance of any of our games.

[HighWater]

I get all that. But, somehow, it just doesn't add up. EL 1, 300GP. Fine. Now we are talking 4 players who each need to attain 900 GP by 2nd level. Now, assuming they are willing and able to loot every encounter (they won't be), that is 12 encounters during 1st level. Reasonable thus far. Except, my group manages to play at most once every two weeks. And with luck we manage to squeeze in one combat every session, less if it is RP heavy. So, that means that if everything goes exceedingly well, they'll be lv 2 after half a year of relatively boring fights because there's nothing interesting to throw at them at lv 1 that won't instantly kill them.

Thanks, WBL!
Don't forget that you can hand out XP for non-combat encounters too.

Spotting, digging up and opening the treasurebox? It's an encounter, it grants some xp. Figuring out something weird that's going on? An encounter! Completing a quest? Reward by the questgiver + xp! Give them a gorge to cross, using nothing but skills, rather than fighting, xp! (And hide the treasure somewhere else.) original solutions to a problem? Xp! Nice roleplaying? Xp! Basically, at early levels, quest/problem xp will be the driving force behind leveling, especially when you're combat-light. Once they hit level 2, levelling up from combat tends to accellerate, so you can start giving out a bit less from non-combats...

[dextercorvia]

I get all that. But, somehow, it just doesn't add up. EL 1, 300GP. Fine. Now we are talking 4 players who each need to attain 900 GP by 2nd level. Now, assuming they are willing and able to loot every encounter (they won't be), that is 12 encounters during 1st level. Reasonable thus far. Except, my group manages to play at most once every two weeks. And with luck we manage to squeeze in one combat every session, less if it is RP heavy. So, that means that if everything goes exceedingly well, they'll be lv 2 after half a year of relatively boring fights because there's nothing interesting to throw at them at lv 1 that won't instantly kill them.

Thanks, WBL!

That isn't the fault of WBL. 12 encounters for WBL, 13 1/3 for the necessary XP means that they have a bit of wiggle room for consumables.

If you don't like how squishy they are, start at a higher level. If you don't like how slow you are leveling, either run higher CR fights, hand out more story rewards (both types xp and wealth), learn to resolve combat faster, or play more.

[NichG]

The encounters-per-level thing is the problem in that example, not the WBL necessarily. But you can control both easily.

For example, you want the PCs to get a total of about 4kgp. So why not make the Lv1 adventure tracking down a rumor of some pirate cove or shipwreck or lost treasure? That way, when the adventure is done you make the treasure be equal in value to 4kgp - what they got on the way + whatever head-start you want on the Lv3 WBL. If you say 'there is a treasure horde at the end' then that's a very flexible thing. And you can make it so that 'completing the adventure = you get to be Lv2' regardless of how many fights there were on the way.

[ericgrau]

Most of the games I play allow new characters to use WBL, and existing characters more or less have around the same amount of money. Though with quite a bit of variation.

Ya your DM is taking out a major aspect of the game and you should talk with him about it. If he won't listen keep playing casters and consider finding another DM, though that's a little tough.

[OldTrees1]

I get all that. But, somehow, it just doesn't add up. EL 1, 300GP. Fine. Now we are talking 4 players who each need to attain 900 GP by 2nd level. Now, assuming they are willing and able to loot every encounter (they won't be), that is 12 encounters during 1st level. Reasonable thus far. Except, my group manages to play at most once every two weeks. And with luck we manage to squeeze in one combat every session, less if it is RP heavy. So, that means that if everything goes exceedingly well, they'll be lv 2 after half a year of relatively boring fights because there's nothing interesting to throw at them at lv 1 that won't instantly kill them.

Thanks, WBL!

Oh that's easy to fix. I normally do x3 to x4 xp acceleration for similar reasons. As a result I have each encounter "drop" x3 to x4 the expected loot. Like HighWater said, this loot does not need to show up right during the encounter. I try to have x2 wealth drop at the encounter (for low levels adding masterwork is nice) and then drop the remaining x1 to x2 as some cargo/chest that the group had lying around. For larger groups I collect all the x1 to x2s and put them in a few chests that the organization had recently acquired.

[Urpriest]

I get all that. But, somehow, it just doesn't add up. EL 1, 300GP. Fine. Now we are talking 4 players who each need to attain 900 GP by 2nd level. Now, assuming they are willing and able to loot every encounter (they won't be), that is 12 encounters during 1st level. Reasonable thus far. Except, my group manages to play at most once every two weeks. And with luck we manage to squeeze in one combat every session, less if it is RP heavy. So, that means that if everything goes exceedingly well, they'll be lv 2 after half a year of relatively boring fights because there's nothing interesting to throw at them at lv 1 that won't instantly kill them.

Thanks, WBL!

That's the problem here. Unless you're only meeting for an hour or two, you should be able to fit in at least three encounters per session.

I've run an investigation-heavy (and thus RP-heavy) 4e (and thus bloated encounter lengths) game, and still managed to get through all my encounters each session. Sometimes it's just a matter of learning how to manage people and keep a group moving.

[Telok]

My feeling is that WotC made money into a character stat when they made 3e/3.5e. In those terms it is a character build part like levels, feats, or saves. Like part of a character build it can be misspent on over priced stuff, similar to a fighter taking Toughness for every feat. In addition WotC's monsters are designed with the expectation that the players spent most of thier money on +number gear.

If you want to run a low wealth (or high wealth) game in WotC D&D then the DM and players need to take that into account. The DM must adjust the encounters to what the party is capable of, and the players must bring characters that are not overly dependent on wealth to function. The DM must also account for the fact that default D&D makes some classes gear dependent at higher levels.

If you do all of that then lower wealth games work just fine. It comes out similar to a game with no feats or no skills, the classes that depend on feats or skills need something to help them keep up and the encounters need to be adjusted to the character's capabilities.

Anyways it's not like a WBL fighter and a WBL wizard/ur-priest/theurge are on the same power level to start with.

[Jergmo]

I "follow" WBL... sort of. I at least keep track of how much higher they are or how far below. Some way or another I catch up, at some time. Instead of random treasure tables, I design encounters around the classes involved, or give better versions of existing items (like cloaks of resistance, etc.) on bosses.

The melee and the mage are behind on gear?

Boss with a magic weapon/etc. item, with a spellcaster cohort with a +3 or whatever cloak of resistance. I tend to give important boss creatures PC wealth, so while their underlings or monsters may not have much, they catch up all at once after an important fight.

[Coidzor]

I get all that. But, somehow, it just doesn't add up. EL 1, 300GP. Fine. Now we are talking 4 players who each need to attain 900 GP by 2nd level. Now, assuming they are willing and able to loot every encounter (they won't be), that is 12 encounters during 1st level. Reasonable thus far. Except, my group manages to play at most once every two weeks. And with luck we manage to squeeze in one combat every session, less if it is RP heavy. So, that means that if everything goes exceedingly well, they'll be lv 2 after half a year of relatively boring fights because there's nothing interesting to throw at them at lv 1 that won't instantly kill them.

Thanks, WBL!

So you're willing to tweak the game one way but unwilling to tweak it to compensate for the changes you've already made. And you blame the system for that.

Granted, yeah, a faster leveling progression & accoutrement system support would have been a nice option, but it's not that hard to figure out how to give extra treasure to compensate for giving extra XP. :smallconfused:

[Yogibear41]

Didn't take the time to read every post so if I say something that has been said before I apologize.

For starters I have never played in a game that uses WBL. My DM hates the concept(and I tend to agree with him). I have had a first level characters with over 8,000 gold(yet no place to spend it ha ha no magic marts here) and I have had an 11th level character who is essentially naked(no VOP either) We tend to agree with the you earn what you get concept. He has told me most of the time we leave tons of stuff worth money right in plain sight anyway, although with more experience I believe I have gotten better at this.

He and now I from my experiences now believe in what he calls "dungeon economics" which doesn't necessarily have to apply to dungeons anyway. A rather abrupt way to explain it is to say take EVERYTHING. Get you some mules and a cart/wagon take them to the dugeon, after you clear the place out spend time to go through it and grab every weapon, piece of furniture, lamps, art works, statues, iron, etc. etc. load that wagon up and go to town.

Granted most of the time I don't even do this(mostly because bad things tend to happen to my mules on the way there :smallfrown: okay actually it just happened once ha poor fe-fe got eaten by a giant), but I would be lying if I said I hadn't made good gold off of taking things that most people would just leave behind, such as a rather large stone statue that I found once when I was low level, was rather huge and had to basically use a pulley system to get it out of the place I found it in, but got a few hundred gold pieces for my trouble.

[Yogibear41]

So, that means that if everything goes exceedingly well, they'll be lv 2 after half a year of relatively boring fights because there's nothing interesting to throw at them at lv 1 that won't instantly kill them.



I've killed CR 3+ stuff as a level 1 solo character before.

One example being a level 1 mystic ranger vs a ghast, I knew the critter was in the area (old graveyard) fortunately it wasn't around when I showed up(just knew it was undead had no idea it was a ghast), checked out my surrounding area found a large tree climbed it, positioned myself 50 or so ft off the ground in it where I could do hide checks in the tree, sat there for a few hours til the undead in question came by. Proceeded to shoot it. Got a 1 or 2 shots off before it reached the tree and started to climb. Continued to shoot it. Got about 10 or so feet from reaching me, got a good shot on it, so it had to roll a climb check it failed and fell 30-40 ft took damage and then began to run away. Shot if a few more times it falls over. I'm thinking YES! but wait... I say: I do a spot check to make sure its not faking... turns out it was playing possum to wait for me to come over and loot it so it could attack and paralyze me! but I wasn't fooled and shot it again killing it. OH the Experience points were good that day :smallsmile:

Killed an otyugh with the same character while it was still level 1 too, although it took me about 3 days in game to actually kill the thing because of a cat and mouse game I was playing with it. I knew I couldn't engage it in melee so kept trying to set up ambushes, where I could basically shoot it from the roof top of the local farm's barn it was terrorizing(it was killing and eating cows!) but it saw through my first several attempts. Ended up taking it to about half hit points before I had to actually engage it in melee and hope it just didn't hit me ha ha.

[Vhaidara]

He and now I from my experiences now believe in what he calls "dungeon economics" which doesn't necessarily have to apply to dungeons anyway. A rather abrupt way to explain it is to say take EVERYTHING. Get you some mules and a cart/wagon take them to the dugeon, after you clear the place out spend time to go through it and grab every weapon, piece of furniture, lamps, art works, statues, iron, etc. etc. load that wagon up and go to town.

You see, we tried that, and it infuriated 3 separate GMs (all in the same week). But what do you expect when you spend a full minute describing the doors? Of course they're valuable!

[Brunks]

The DM I played with IRL the most was one of those people who would give one or two players numerous artifact items (which, naturally, only they could use), while everyone else got shafted. The first time I joined a game, he got really annoyed that I had full WBL at level 16, but he'd never said anything about it in his list of houserules, and so was forced to bring everyone else in the group up to snuff with treasure. Of course, the two players who had eight artifact weapons and two sets of artifact armors (and several artifact rings of three Wishes) each got full WBL, too.

I didn't care for his games, honestly (not the least of which was because he had an average of 12 players at a time), but that was the only group I knew of, so...

The games I play in I usually bother doing the math and keeping track of shares. If a character gets an item, that item's sellprice is substracted from his share of the loot and redistributed amongst remaining party members. A player in my campaign got a belt of freedom of movement, but then didn't get anything for the next 3 vendor runs.
And when you put it in concrete numbers like that it gets pretty hard to play favorites and you'll have more players backing your argument.

As a DM I tend to give out homebrew items as well, but always put a appropriate price tag on it. I think the WBL table is a great guide to follow.

[Somensjev]

And if that doesn't work, get a wagon, and ranks in craft (materials, smithing, gold smithing) and turn a single gold coin into 1*3*3*3= 27 gold minimum with a few days' downtime

i remember seeing this before, and i remember it being explained, but could someone please explain it to me? i seem to be unable to remember it :smallannoyed:

[Slipperychicken]

i remember seeing this before, and i remember it being explained, but could someone please explain it to me? i seem to be unable to remember it :smallannoyed:

To craft an item, you need 1/3 its cost in raw materials. People like to assume that gold coins are raw materials for gold coins, so they cheekily claim that you can turn one gold coin into 3 with a day's labor.

[OldTrees1]

i remember seeing this before, and i remember it being explained, but could someone please explain it to me? i seem to be unable to remember it :smallannoyed:

Non magical crafting costs 1/3 the market price in materials.

[PraxisVetli]

My first DM didn't believe in WBL, considering almost every itm to be overpowered. We finished the campaign around level 24, with a cumulative 30k gold split amongst 8 people.
60k if you count items into it, not just gold.
It was hell.

[Shinken]

I haven't really checked it, but I'm fairly certain the games I played in have gone far above it. And I don't mind. (I only spend it stupidly anyway). To me booty, loot and spoils of war are the reason to adventure. You literally get rich or die trying. Though to me the story matters more then the mechanics. As long as everyone has equipment enough to function (mundanes desperately need their equipment while casters don't really) all is fair to me.

That's how I usually DM. My players are usually well above WBL, because we rarely have full casters and because I like giving them cool items. Most interesting items are waaay overpriced anyway, so I take WBL mostly as a starting point.

[Incanur]

I've always tried to follow WBL when running more-or-less RAI 3.5 campaigns.

[Knaight]

You see, we tried that, and it infuriated 3 separate GMs (all in the same week). But what do you expect when you spend a full minute describing the doors? Of course they're valuable!
To some extent, this has to do with emulating the fiction. A lot of people want to have a game like Lord of the Rings, or Conan, or whatever. Extremely thorough looting is not a part of any of these. Lord of the Rings didn't feature looting to any real extent at all, and Conan tends to grab low weight, high value gems, the occasional chest, and the occasional better weapon. He doesn't take every door out and stick it on a cart, nor does he even bother to loot weapons most of the time, unless he's replacing his own, and at that point the one he was using usually ends up abandoned. If this sort of emulation is desired, the thorough looting gets irritating.



WBL is one of those things that comes automatically when you read the rules systematically with no enforcement required, but a surprising number of people approach D&D, a game with textbook-sized rulebooks, as a game with rules that can just be guessed intuitively. I don't really understand where that comes from, but there it is.
A lot of people play D&D because it's the big game in the industry and the only game they know. A great many people in this group also would clearly prefer a game with a much lighter rules set, and as such they try to use D&D 3.5 as a rules light game. WBL is one of those things that tends to get dropped. For that matter, so is experience. I also routinely see class skills dropped, but that's less a matter of preference and more a matter of me routinely having more experience than the GM and suggesting it on account of hating that particular mechanic.

I'd consider the good fix to both of these problems to be not playing D&D 3.5. It's a lot of things, but a rules light game with minimal focus on wealth and equipment isn't one of them.

[Urpriest]

A lot of people play D&D because it's the big game in the industry and the only game they know. A great many people in this group also would clearly prefer a game with a much lighter rules set, and as such they try to use D&D 3.5 as a rules light game. WBL is one of those things that tends to get dropped. For that matter, so is experience. I also routinely see class skills dropped, but that's less a matter of preference and more a matter of me routinely having more experience than the GM and suggesting it on account of hating that particular mechanic.

I'd consider the good fix to both of these problems to be not playing D&D 3.5. It's a lot of things, but a rules light game with minimal focus on wealth and equipment isn't one of them.

See, on one level, I get that.

But on another level, Risk and Monopoly are also rules-heavy horrible dinosaurs that live on based purely on name recognition, played by people who just want a casual game. And while there are a few rules people forget, I still feel like people who buy those games pay a lot more attention to the rules than people do with D&D.

[Knaight]

But on another level, Risk and Monopoly are also rules-heavy horrible dinosaurs that live on based purely on name recognition, played by people who just want a casual game. And while there are a few rules people forget, I still feel like people who buy those games pay a lot more attention to the rules than people do with D&D.

They are also games you bring a lot less to (along with having nothing on D&D when it comes to being rules-heavy). D&D is a rules set, but unless you're running a module there's still a fair amount of designing things involved, and this involves pulling in all sorts of other sources.

In short - people are just playing Risk or Monopoly. People are using D&D to play The Tolkien/Howard/Whatever style adventures of [The Party], and that distinction is where the disregard to rules creeps in. Other people, many of whom actually know of other systems, choose D&D precisely because they favor a rules heavy approach, which is where things like actually expecting and wanting WBL comes in.

[HighWater]

And the DMG explicitly says not to wait 'til you've read ALL the rules before starting a game. Instead you should "hop right in". Combine that with the WBL section explicitly saying it's a guideline (while also saying that encounters factor it in) and there's plenty of wiggle room for DM's who wanna play "real fantasy" to omit the "you get massive amounts of treasure!"-clause.
That, and the Risk and Monopoly rules are a couple of pages. DnD 3.5? Not so much...

[NichG]

Risk and Monopoly are competitive games, so its more important for the players to be on the same page as far as the rules go. D&D is generally a collaborative experience between the players and the DM, so the rules are more useful for the purpose of giving structure, guidance, and inspiration than for enforcing fairness or consistency.

What doesn't work however is running a game on autopilot. Assuming that you can just throw things from the book at the party without actually paying attention to how well the party is doing, who is performing well or poorly, etc is a mistake even if you've made sure the party's wealth matches WBL - six Fighters and six Wizards are very different parties, and require very different DMing to achieve an enjoyable and functional game.

[Yogibear41]

You see, we tried that, and it infuriated 3 separate GMs (all in the same week). But what do you expect when you spend a full minute describing the doors? Of course they're valuable!

If a DM gets mad at you taking treasure thats staring you right in the face he has no business DMing.

[Incanur]

Looting everything is a D&D tradition. As a DM I always assume that the PCs may well take anything they can transport. I do, however, find WBL bookkeeping tedious. I'd much prefer a system where wealth didn't easily translate into increased combat power. That would allow for the PCs to strike it rich without dramatically upsetting encounter balance and simultaneously permit non-looting PCs to compete.