Help with a legendary thief.

[Gamereaper]

I'm trying to make a thief part of this legendary triad. In one of the legends he's in, he has a huge role in saving a kingdom froman army of werewolves lead by a wolf demon. He made the werewolves powerless by stealing the moon (I'm hoping literally possible, but trickery would be nice.) and the rest of the party slayed the demon.

I don't feel that a
Spellthief//Psithief 20 is adequate.
I needs a good X//Y PrC combination for 10 levels.

No evil classes, but I could if it's just flavor. No Urpriest though.

Basically, I want a thief capable of stealing anything or as much as possible. I will want at least 5th level in arcane casting. So maybe Sorcerer as one half. If it's possible, I'll use the epic feat to let him get "5th" level spellthief so he can get the "remove trait" spell if it's possible so I don't need the sorcerer levels.

[TheMooch]

oh man Sha'ir//spelltheif/theif of life would be cool you steal spells from all over and some nifty stuff. refluff sha'ir to be stealing the spells from elementals

Ur-preist would work so well flavor wise since you are stealing abilities from creatures/gods

[Gamereaper]

oh man Sha'ir//spelltheif/theif of life would be cool you steal spells from all over and some nifty stuff. refluff sha'ir to be stealing the spells from elementals

Ur-preist would work so well flavor wise since you are stealing abilities from creatures/gods

Urpriest is evil, I can't use it for a CG 30th level thief.

Part of the history is that the gods asked them if they wanted to ascend to godhood in exchange, they can't help mortals anymore. If they declined, they would fade from history one day. They chose to stay. The gods respected their decision and then put them in stasis for when the world needed them again at the day of the coming of the apocalypse (not too distant future in game).

So yeah, Urpriest will be a BIG no no.

Also, I want the Fighter, Caster, and Thief to all have their own dynamic to them. Including a full casting PrC in the Tgief hero will make the caster not stand out as much.

[Shining Wrath]

So you want a gestalt character class capable of stealing the moon (or making it appear that the moon has been stolen)?

Illusion. Illusion strong enough that even a demon can't see through it. The moon was there, just hidden. Conversely, conjure something like a giant Tenser's Disk that eclipses the moon so the werewolves can't see it. A Bard / rogue gestalt.

Or give him a legendary artifact - a Bag of Holding large enough to hold the moon (which may not be the size of our moon because magic). And a flying mount that let him ascend to the moon. He's a ranger / rogue with an animal companion.

[Telonius]

So, are these Werewolves afflicted or natural? If they're aware of their condition, they really don't need the moon to change shape voluntarily; all it takes is a Control Shape check. You could impose a Wisdom penalty (or some other penalty to their Control Shape check) to prevent them from changing. (Of course if it's a fluff thing that the moon being gone removes lycanthropy, that's something different).

It seems like causing a lunar eclipse would do it. Maybe something like a Killer Gnome or a high-level Shadowcaster could do that.

Just make sure that whatever the plan is, it doesn't involve killing a fish. Some bald-headed kid is bound to show up and thwart you.

[Werephilosopher]

The Shadow Templar prc from the 3.5 update to Dark Sun gets 9th-level casting over 10 levels like Ur-Priest, except it's arcane instead of divine. Also your body slowly turns to shadow as you progress, making it nice for someone focused on stealth. You'd have to refluff it, but unlike Ur-Priest there's no evil requirement.

[Gamereaper]

So, are these Werewolves afflicted or natural? If they're aware of their condition, they really don't need the moon to change shape voluntarily; all it takes is a Control Shape check. You could impose a Wisdom penalty (or some other penalty to their Control Shape check) to prevent them from changing. (Of course if it's a fluff thing that the moon being gone removes lycanthropy, that's something different).

It seems like causing a lunar eclipse would do it. Maybe something like a Killer Gnome or a high-level Shadowcaster could do that.

Just make sure that whatever the plan is, it doesn't involve killing a fish. Some bald-headed kid is bound to show up and thwart you.

The werewolves were infected by the demon*with an atrifact made by the demon. It's like a genie bottle, but it shoots red mist that infects those who breathe in the mist into werewolves under his control in the moonlight (which is why there wasn't a slaughterfest, they were innocent people).
With the moon gone, they instantly reverted back.

I think I'll just make an artifact for each of the heroes that embodies what they do. The thief could have a bag of holding that could hold any one item in it, regardless of size.

I don't want to give him a caster class that will give a 9th level casting because the caster won't stand out as much.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14// Incarnate 20 gets you all the thieving and a critical mass of trickery and versatility on top of 9th level arcane spellcasting.

[Gamereaper]

Are there any prestige classes that help steal stuff.

I have:
Items
Magical Items
Spells
Powers
Spell Like Abilities
Spell Like Powers
The spell Remove Trait
(By Improved Spell Capacity)

Anything else (except Urpriest) that can steal stuff? If the fluff is evil, then that's doable. But requiring to be evil and having to do evil things is out.

I don't need him to be a 9th level caster, have a full BAB, have familiars, have animal companions, shapeshift, or anything like that. He has 2 teammates that are 30th level that work as a team with him. I need just the rogue aspect.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anything else (except Urpriest) that can steal stuff? If the fluff is evil, then that's doable. But requiring to be evil and having to do evil things is out.

In the build I suggested, you can shape soulmelds and invest essentia to get +10 to the following skills, not counting your skill ranks (some are found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4)):
Acrobat Boots – Balance, Escape Artist, Jump, & Tumble.
Dragon Tail - Balance & Swim (competence bonus)
Elder Spirit - Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), & Use Magic Device
Keeneye Lenses – Spot.
Mage’s Spectacles – Decipher Script, Spellcraft, & Use Magical Device.
Necrocarnum Touch – Slight of Hand & some Bluff checks.
Psion’s Eyes – Autohypnosis, Psycraft, Use Psionic Device
Riding Bracers – Handle Animal & Ride.
Sailor’s Bracers – Swim, Profession (sailor), & Use Rope.
Silvertongue Mask – Bluff, Diplomacy & Sense Motive.
Theft Gloves – Disable Device, Open Lock, and Slight of Hand.
Truthseeker Goggles - Gather Information, Search, & Sense Motive.

The only thing that can get you a higher skill bonus besides a prohibitively expensive custom item is an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) with a lot of invested skill ranks. The above bonuses from soulmelds stack with everything I just mentioned, it's just an additional +10 to the skills for whichever soulmelds you shape. Granted if you only want the bonus from a single soulmeld (Theft Gloves), then you can just dip Incarnate to get it, but the class is just so good a everything that it's hard to not take it on a gestalt character.


I don't need him to be a 9th level caster, have a full BAB, have familiars, have animal companions, shapeshift, or anything like that. He has 2 teammates that are 30th level that work as a team with him. I need just the rogue aspect.

Any class that's capable of filling the role of a Rogue in a party does a better job of it than Rogue itself. There are two types of this character, one who sneak attacks so he can rob trains, stick up the bank, and be a thuggish type of thief, and one who uses tricks, charisma, and planning to steal something out from everyone's noses without them even knowing. I doubt he's going to be sapping any guards to steal the moon, so he should be the latter sort. For this reason he shouldn't need any type of sneak attack or combat capabilities, especially if it distracts from his purpose of epic filching. With Beguiler he can increase his carrying capacity high enough to grab the moon and (Swift) Ethereal Jaunt it away, then just let go of it so it stays on the ethereal plane when he returns to the material plane. Incarnate makes him better at being a thief, and gives him the tools he needs to be good at anything else he would want to be good at.

[Gamereaper]

In the build I suggested, you can shape soulmelds and invest essentia to get +10 to the following skills, not counting your skill ranks (some are found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4)):
Acrobat Boots – Balance, Escape Artist, Jump, & Tumble.
Dragon Tail - Balance & Swim (competence bonus)
Elder Spirit - Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), & Use Magic Device
Keeneye Lenses – Spot.
Mage’s Spectacles – Decipher Script, Spellcraft, & Use Magical Device.
Necrocarnum Touch – Slight of Hand & some Bluff checks.
Psion’s Eyes – Autohypnosis, Psycraft, Use Psionic Device
Riding Bracers – Handle Animal & Ride.
Sailor’s Bracers – Swim, Profession (sailor), & Use Rope.
Silvertongue Mask – Bluff, Diplomacy & Sense Motive.
Theft Gloves – Disable Device, Open Lock, and Slight of Hand.
Truthseeker Goggles - Gather Information, Search, & Sense Motive.

The only thing that can get you a higher skill bonus besides a prohibitively expensive custom item is an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) with a lot of invested skill ranks. The above bonuses from soulmelds stack with everything I just mentioned, it's just an additional +10 to the skills for whichever soulmelds you shape. Granted if you only want the bonus from a single soulmeld (Theft Gloves), then you can just dip Incarnate to get it, but the class is just so good a everything that it's hard to not take it on a gestalt character.



Any class that's capable of filling the role of a Rogue in a party does a better job of it than Rogue itself. There are two types of this character, one who sneak attacks so he can rob trains, stick up the bank, and be a thuggish type of thief, and one who uses tricks, charisma, and planning to steal something out from everyone's noses without them even knowing. I doubt he's going to be sapping any guards to steal the moon, so he should be the latter sort. For this reason he shouldn't need any type of sneak attack or combat capabilities, especially if it distracts from his purpose of epic filching. With Beguiler he can increase his carrying capacity high enough to grab the moon and (Swift) Ethereal Jaunt it away, then just let go of it so it stays on the ethereal plane when he returns to the material plane. Incarnate makes him better at being a thief, and gives him the tools he needs to be good at anything else he would want to be good at.

What are essentia and soulmelds?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What are essentia and soulmelds?

They're the class features that Incarnates, Totemists, and Soulborns get. All of that is detailed in Magic of Incarnum, here's a handy guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215723-Incarnum-and-YOU-a-reference-guide).

[Gamereaper]

They're the class features that Incarnates, Totemists, and Soulborns get. All of that is detailed in Magic of Incarnum, here's a handy guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215723-Incarnum-and-YOU-a-reference-guide).

Thanks, I'll definitely look into this.

Not exactly what I'm looking for, but I'll definitely keep these in mind for the future.

Are there any prestige classes that let you steal weird things like a shadow, someone's senses, memories, etc.?