Detailed tier analysis of the Paladin class

[Gnoman]

I'm rebuilding the Paladin, Monk, Cleric and partially Wizard classes for my setting in order to tie them in to the world a lot better than the generic PHB versions (setting up different knightly orders and religious socieites, etc,), and I figured I might as well touch up some of the Paladin's flaws while I'm at it. Not trying to make it tier 1 or anything (in fact, I'm not actually setting out to rebalance things, I just want to rework the crunch to better match my fluff, so to speak), but there's no reason to build a class that nobody will play because it happens to be terrible. Does anyone have a link to the analysis of the Paladin specifically?

[Oko and Qailee]

This might help?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269440-Why-Each-Class-Is-In-Its-Tier-(Rescued-from-MinMax)

[Gnoman]

That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

[Metahuman1]

Unless you explicitly want to be mounted or cast paladin spells, just tell your players Paladin's in your setting are crusaders. Maybe with a Warblade dip for Iron Heart and Diamond Mind goodness like the Concentration to save counters, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Mithril tornado, couple of others.


If they MUST have paladin spells and/or mount, do the following.

1: Take PrC Paladin, including the alignment variant options form Unearthed Arcana.

2: Add all the Paladin's class skills to the Crusader that aren't already there.

3: Make the PrC Paladin condense the Core Paladin's casting progression into 15 levels, and kick off on level 1 of the PrC.

4: Make the PrC Paladin grant Turn Undead at entry level 1 based on characters hit dice or character level, not class level.

5: Make Paladin Casting based off Cha.

6: Make PrC Paladin Advance everything about Crusader. Yes, even that. And make it on a 1-1 level bases.

7: Profit.

[Kennisiou]

It's worth mentioning Paladin (and Monk as well) can play the ACF shuffle game and wind up in tier 3 with no problems. Paladin feat support outside of core also gives them a lot of ways to fix their problems, with battle blessing and serenity making their casting better and removing their MAD. If remaking the paladin, making those two feats somehow inherent to the class would be a good idea (like just give paladins Cha-based casting to begin with for "reverse Serenity" that's more thematic). Check out Songsword of Milil to see how Paladin can perform well at high levels.

[Gnoman]

Unless you explicitly want to be mounted or cast paladin spells, just tell your players Paladin's in your setting are crusaders. Maybe with a Warblade dip for Iron Heart and Diamond Mind goodness like the Concentration to save counters, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Mithril tornado, couple of others.


That will not work. Because I absolutely despise the mechanics, I have banned Tome of Battle from my table.

[Rakaydos]

What's so bad about it?

[Metahuman1]

That will not work. Because I absolutely despise the mechanics, I have banned Tome of Battle from my table.

Um, well then, you may find yourself having a very, very difficult time with not nearly the results you wanted in trying to hit perfect T-3 balance or very close too it then, as Crusader is sorta the poster child for T-3 and tome of battle as a book is likely the single most balanced thing Wizards of the Coast ever published prior to 4E.

Best of luck in the endeavor. Oh, um, small suggestion, make it a point to not push any kind of realism, as anyone who knows anything about eastern or western martial arts will tell you that Tome of Battle simulate realistic combat far better then any other system in the game. Just, friendly warning to try and help you dodge a pitfall there.

[Darkweave31]

Try taking a look at the A-game paladin, the result is a pretty interesting leader character. Not sure what tier it falls in, possibly 4? Not sure if it can do much more than the base paladin out of combat. If you're looking to apply some homebrew to the paladin to bring it up to snuff you could check over on the homebrew boards. There are a lot of fixes, project heretica being my favorite.

[Dorian Gray]

Best of luck in the endeavor. Oh, um, small suggestion, make it a point to not push any kind of realism, as anyone who knows anything about eastern or western martial arts will tell you that Tome of Battle simulate realistic combat far better then any other system in the game. Just, friendly warning to try and help you dodge a pitfall there.

Yeah, I can personally attest that ToB is better at modeling fencing than the PHB. I mean, why the hell do I need to be level, like 3/6 to have improved feint and weapon finesse? :smallsigh:

[Kennisiou]

Try taking a look at the A-game paladin, the result is a pretty interesting leader character. Not sure what tier it falls in, possibly 4? Not sure if it can do much more than the base paladin out of combat. If you're looking to apply some homebrew to the paladin to bring it up to snuff you could check over on the homebrew boards. There are a lot of fixes, project heretica being my favorite.

It's often considered t3. Out of combat you have spells/wand access to heal and are an excellent party face. That may not sound by much, but it's as much out of combat utility as the crusader has, and a-game paladin's in-combat utility is comparable to theirs.

[Gnoman]

What's so bad about it?

It doesn't mesh well with the rest of 3.5, adds an additional complex subsystem that I can't keep track of in combat, and my groups are so low-op (one of the most effective characters in my last game was a MONK) that it becomes massively overpowered because you can't do very badly with it (granted, that's not really a flaw in the system itself as much as it is unsuitable for my groups).

Apart from that, I don't like "cooldowns", which is what the mechanics feel like to me. I'm not trying to claim that ToB is objectively bad the way a lot of BoED or BoVD content is. It just is not the game I want to play.


Um, well then, you may find yourself having a very, very difficult time with not nearly the results you wanted in trying to hit perfect T-3 balance or very close too it then, as Crusader is sorta the poster child for T-3 and tome of battle as a book is likely the single most balanced thing Wizards of the Coast ever published prior to 4E.

Best of luck in the endeavor. Oh, um, small suggestion, make it a point to not push any kind of realism, as anyone who knows anything about eastern or western martial arts will tell you that Tome of Battle simulate realistic combat far better then any other system in the game. Just, friendly warning to try and help you dodge a pitfall there.

I'm not trying for "perfect balance" or "realistic combat". I want my game mechanics to match the setting fluff. I'm hoping to avoid making the altered classes horrible, and would be thrilled if the result is improved, but that isn't my goal.