Spell Versatility - how to exploit?

[weckar]

With the broadest non-contradictory reading possible of the class ability, how and with what build can the Geomancer's Spell Versatility be exploited to the maximum potential? Armored Mages seem the most obvious, but certainly not the most interesting, right?

[NoACWarrior]

The Geomancer's Spell versatility ability, while allowing for armored arcane mages, isn't as helpful as you might think.

First off, mad issues aren't addressed with the preparation, since that is untouched. Its only when the geomancer actually casts a spell that the very specific and spelled out effects can occur. The issue is when you take the fluff regarding the mixing and matching of spellcasting parameters for any spell which qualifies to mean other things than spellcasting.

Taken at face value and ACFs - you get things like converting any arcane or divine spell slot to a domain spell or the ability to ignore expensive foci or material components for a arcane or divine only spell (so long as it is listed as arcane or divine foci / material components).

Taken a bit further out you can do things which affect spells when they are cast - changing a spell from arcane type to divine type and back again (yes this is pretty stupid, but hey sometimes a creature might just have arcane immunity but no divine immunity, or maybe you want to use divine metamagic on the fly on a sorcerer spell, or maybe you have arcane spell enhancing feats which you want to work on divine spells), casting a spell using the arcane or divine caster level (usually using the higher of the two), casting a spell at a higher level because it has a higher level on the other list, skipping out on the other components (so long as its divine or arcane listed) to get a free still and silent spell, and using the better of two durations (if a spell allows divine casters not to have to concentrate then by all means use the divine version)

The face value portion I approve of, but the "taken a bit further" I do not approve of. But thats fluff interpretation for you.

[weckar]

When he casts them, however, he can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell with a spell level equal to or less than his spell versatility score.
Just those few words make me think anything justifiable is free game.

[Kazudo]

It gives specific things that it does, however, it is possible for a DM to read it as "anything happens". Now that wouldn't be something like "Well, this spell does 1d6 damage so I'll rather it gave negative levels", and I believe it's pretty obvious not to give you anything like free metamagic uses. It's really just not that great. Don't get me wrong, it allows for you to ignore spell failure chance, to change your primary casting trait for determining Save DCs, you also can substitute a Divine Focus for Material Components whenever the option for either is presented. You can't really just rewrite spells with it. Oh, and you can burn ANY spell you know for spontaneous casting as long as you can cast the substituted-in spell in the first place, and all at the low, low cost of Cleric/Druid 3.

It's really not as good as it looks, but all of that can still be incredibly useful if done correctly. Now, the line you're thinking of,



he can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes


is a "general statement" which is then clarified by the "Specific Instances" below it. You can't do things like change energy type, convert to positive or negative energy (except for spontaneous casting above), change the range or buff increment, because you're not affecting the SPELL, per se, you're affecting how you CAST it.

[weckar]

I get all that. But, in the end, there are certain things divine casters can do with their spells that arcana users can't (and the other way) that are balanced against their normal spell lists. For example, could a cleric/sorcerer benefit for a sorcerers many spells per day by using those slots for cleric spells? How about a Druid who gets to spontaneously convert to... Summon animal, I think? Any ACFs that could make use of this that you could never get on a character on the opposite end of the magic scale?

[Kazudo]

I get all that. But, in the end, there are certain things divine casters can do with their spells that arcana users can't (and the other way) that are balanced against their normal spell lists. For example, could a cleric/sorcerer benefit for a sorcerers many spells per day by using those slots for cleric spells? How about a Druid who gets to spontaneously convert to... Summon animal, I think? Any ACFs that could make use of this that you could never get on a character on the opposite end of the magic scale?

Well, ACFs not really. They all actually affect the base class, which would be argumentative at best with Geomancers in the mix.

You can't really "Trade Spells" amongst your slots. You can cast Cleric Spells as Arcane Spells suddenly for whatever reason (I'm sure there are exploits for that, like using Archmage's abilities for example.) but you can't cast Cleric Spells from your Sorcerer's Spell Slots. As far as Spontaneous casting, you can use any spell from any spell list to substitute for Spontaneous Casting. That's a listed feature.

Now then, some things might actually work where they didn't before like, for example, DMM Persisting spells on the Wizard/Sorc spell list that aren't shared in the Cleric list would work, since you can cast Arcane spells suddenly as Divine.

[NoACWarrior]

Well, ACFs not really. They all actually affect the base class, which would be argumentative at best with Geomancers in the mix.

You can't really "Trade Spells" amongst your slots. You can cast Cleric Spells as Arcane Spells suddenly for whatever reason (I'm sure there are exploits for that, like using Archmage's abilities for example.) but you can't cast Cleric Spells from your Sorcerer's Spell Slots. As far as Spontaneous casting, you can use any spell from any spell list to substitute for Spontaneous Casting. That's a listed feature.

Now then, some things might actually work where they didn't before like, for example, DMM Persisting spells on the Wizard/Sorc spell list that aren't shared in the Cleric list would work, since you can cast Arcane spells suddenly as Divine.

The DMM trick with spell versatility will not work until you would be casting said spell - you couldn't prepare the spell in advance with DMM due to it still being an Arcane spell.

As for ACFs, YES, if a cleric has spontaneous domain spells they would be able to use it as normal with spell versatility.


He can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage

It only affects spell casting parameters on cast of the spell - that includes all differences in spellcasting ability and parameters affecting the spell that was cast - CL, Spell level, duration, effect (if separated by type), components, and type.

Because lists are better than paragraphs / walls of text, I made the mistake of making it unreadable:


Things you can do with spell versatility which is arguably allowed -
1) Change the spell type from arcane to divine or vice versa
2) Casting a spell with a feat which only affects one type of spell (divine or arcane)
3) Casting the spell at a higher level using a lower level slot because either the divine or arcane version has a higher level.
4) Not needing any components (even verbal or somantic) so long as the component has the prefix "Arcane" or "Divine".
5) Using the better of two durations if it is different between the arcane or divine versions

[weckar]

How about using it to qualify for another PrC that requires spellcasting of the opposing tree?

[Vaz]

An Arcane character can CAST Arcane spells, while a Divine character can CAST Divine spells, but there's nothing preventing you from preparing Divine Spells in those slots. For example, you have access to 9th level spells, but Archivist allows you to use Miracle as a 9th level divine spell. Because they're prepared in the same manner (from a spellbook - the prayerbook of the Archivist references the spellbook), you can put a Divine spell taking up an Arcane slot, but you still couldn't cast it.

However, as, "at the time of casting" you can choose what parameters are involved, you can choose the ability to cast the 9th level divine spell as an arcane spell.

[NoACWarrior]

An Arcane character can CAST Arcane spells, while a Divine character can CAST Divine spells, but there's nothing preventing you from preparing Divine Spells in those slots. For example, you have access to 9th level spells, but Archivist allows you to use Miracle as a 9th level divine spell. Because they're prepared in the same manner (from a spellbook - the prayerbook of the Archivist references the spellbook), you can put a Divine spell taking up an Arcane slot, but you still couldn't cast it.

However, as, "at the time of casting" you can choose what parameters are involved, you can choose the ability to cast the 9th level divine spell as an arcane spell.

What do you mean prepare the divine spell in the arcane slot... spell versatility doesn't affect preparation - it explicitly states you prepare spells separately and normally. OH I understand what you are getting at for archivist / wizard, that's a totally different story though.

@ Weckar - so long as you interpret the fluff as allowing you to cast arcane or divine spell versions of any spell which meets the prerequisites of spell versatility, then maybe. A few PrCs still state access to x level spells, this would imply that you have the slots to cast them from, not just the ability to cast them. For any PrC which requires you casting x level spells, spell versatility could allow for "early" entry.

[Kazudo]

Now then, that's the RAW (and I'm pretty convinced the RAI, too) but I did have one DM that said that it pretty much extended into the spell's effect too, which allowed for a particularly nasty time when I prepared a devastating spell chain that ended in an infinite damage combo. Except it did negative energy damage. And I was undead.

So really, if you have a DM that agrees with that (And probably thinks that RKV can Divine Impetus as a free action and that Kobolds can be true dragons with just a few templates and feats) then please. Take it and run with it and let your imagination go wild.

Now, Vaz, this confuses me. Are you saying that the game doesn't differentiate between spell slots of different classes? Because that's pretty much what you're saying it doesn't do.

[Vaz]

What do you mean prepare the divine spell in the arcane slot... spell versatility doesn't affect preparation - it explicitly states you prepare spells separately and normally. OH I understand what you are getting at for archivist / wizard, that's a totally different story though.

There's nothing, anywhere, preventing you from preparing spells you can't actually cast in your existing spell slots. You just can't cast them, which would make it a waste. Wizards/Wu Jen/Archivist all draw their spells from spell books, which by the wording;


She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare

Means that when she selects her spells from her spellbook (Blessed book of Boccob in this instance for ease of having the spells), she can select any for the slots, provided they are prepared by a spellbook. So; Wu Jen 3/Archivist 3/Geomancer 10 (all Wu Jen advancement)/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 1 is my favourite example. It has 9th level Wu Jen Spells, and 2nd level Archivist spells. Regardless of spell level, you can transcribe it within the spellbook.

To prepare the spell, you must be have an Int of 10+Spell level, nothing else. The only time that there's a "check" to ensure it's on your spell list is when you cast it. The definition of parameter is extremely loose. However, a parameter is a "limit". We're talking about exploits here, so permissive ruleset for CharOp. In my eyes, being a particular type of spell (Arcane/Divine) and on a particular spell-list are both parameters. As such - both are eligible to be changed AT THE TIME OF CASTING. So that "Miracle" you transcribed in your Blessed book using Archivist that you prepared in your Wu Jen 9th level spell slot as a Divine spell from the Cleric spell-list you cannot actually cast, until, AT THE TIME OF CASTING, you change its parameters to being an Arcane spell on the Wu Jen spell list.

It's an exploit, and, from what I can see, RAW legal.

[Kazudo]

So what about the following statements?



A wu jen casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the wu jen spell list (page 91).




A wu jen must choose and prepare spells ahead of time like a wizard (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177 of the Player's Handbook).


Actually, I'm done researching stuff for this. Your interpretation of RAW is incorrect as far as I can see.

I wonder if Nedz has this in his handbook yet.

[NoACWarrior]

There's nothing, anywhere, preventing you from preparing spells you can't actually cast in your existing spell slots. You just can't cast them, which would make it a waste. Wizards/Wu Jen/Archivist all draw their spells from spell books, which by the wording;



Means that when she selects her spells from her spellbook (Blessed book of Boccob in this instance for ease of having the spells), she can select any for the slots, provided they are prepared by a spellbook. So; Wu Jen 3/Archivist 3/Geomancer 10 (all Wu Jen advancement)/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 1 is my favourite example. It has 9th level Wu Jen Spells, and 2nd level Archivist spells. Regardless of spell level, you can transcribe it within the spellbook.

To prepare the spell, you must be have an Int of 10+Spell level, nothing else. The only time that there's a "check" to ensure it's on your spell list is when you cast it. The definition of parameter is extremely loose. However, a parameter is a "limit". We're talking about exploits here, so permissive ruleset for CharOp. In my eyes, being a particular type of spell (Arcane/Divine) and on a particular spell-list are both parameters. As such - both are eligible to be changed AT THE TIME OF CASTING. So that "Miracle" you transcribed in your Blessed book using Archivist that you prepared in your Wu Jen 9th level spell slot as a Divine spell from the Cleric spell-list you cannot actually cast, until, AT THE TIME OF CASTING, you change its parameters to being an Arcane spell on the Wu Jen spell list.

It's an exploit, and, from what I can see, RAW legal.

Although I personally don't think thats RAW legal, but yet understand why it seems raw legal, thats something for another discussion, lets just talk about spell versatility exploiting instead.

More things to add to the fluff allowed spell versatility game breaking pile-

Ignoring alignment restricted spells - as an arcane spell you don't have the same restriction as clerics do.
Replacing spell effects from divine to arcane and vice versa - arcane fire or flame strike can now deal divine or arcane based damage instead.
Hypothetically when casting a prepared spell you can instead expend a spontaneous slot in the other arcane / divine casting class (the SRD under "choosing a spell" entry), pretty nifty if you suddenly need 4-5 castings of deathward and you only prepared one.

[Vaz]

The fact that there's no mention in that section, there's no mention of the prepared spells having to be on your spell-list. Normally, this isn't an issue - you can't cast that spell even if you prepare it.

For example, a Wizard comes across a scroll of a Cleric only spell; lets say Divine Power. It can scribe it in its spellbook if it so wishes; however, it just can't cast it, making it a wasted spell, and godly intelligence Wizards/Wu Jen aren't that stupid to do so. However - this is where spell versatility comes in when you cast it - see above for why.

[NoACWarrior]

The fact that there's no mention in that section, there's no mention of the prepared spells having to be on your spell-list. Normally, this isn't an issue - you can't cast that spell even if you prepare it.

For example, a Wizard comes across a scroll of a Cleric only spell; lets say Divine Power. It can scribe it in its spellbook if it so wishes; however, it just can't cast it, making it a wasted spell, and godly intelligence Wizards/Wu Jen aren't that stupid to do so. However - this is where spell versatility comes in when you cast it - see above for why.

OK I fully see where you are going with this - using an arcane spell slot to prepare a divine spell you couldn't otherwise cast, but attempt to cast and change the spell type when casting but before casting criteria for failure or success is checked so that it is treated as if an arcane spell.

That would be a good use of spell versatility if people agreed you could prepare a divine spell from your spell book into a slot designed only for your class derived spells. If I could get over the preparation part - I'm cool with the scribing into spell book part - then I would say this is a GREAT way to get free divine spells with your arcane spells - all without giving up the power of a single spell casting class.

[Kazudo]

I can only really put this forward as counter-evidence to your claims, Vaz.



a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.




The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)


I know that the evidence is circumstantial, but no more so than attempting to prove the absence of a rule saying otherwise. It sounds to me like in order to copy a spell to a spellbook, you have to use it, and in order to use it, it has to be of the correct type.

[Vaz]

Character Optimization was coming up with methods of killing gods, and produced Pun Pun, all reliant on 'shaky' readings.

I was told to exploit, I exploited :) It is RAW legal, and TO. Not practical optimization, or suitable for most games.

At the end of the day, you're still a vastly delayed spellcaster, you don't hit 9ths until 20th level, which is worse than a Shugenja - even if the spell list is inherently more flexible. If you're not playing at 20th level, then switch wu jen for wizard. Wu Jen is used because Wish can be used to cast 7-8th Wizard spells, but not Wu Jen 7+'s.

Edit @ Kazudo, in that instance, it doesn't matter either way, as I can learn all divine spells as an Archivist, and any Divine spellcaster with Scribe Scroll can make Divine versions of any spell, whoever provides the spell, making it viable. I'm on a tablrt at th minute making it hard to reply, I'll look tomorrow regarding that.