Getting Poisons from animal companions/familiars/etc

[Yogibear41]

So in drow of the underdark it has rules for using handle animal to get poisons from vermin companions, I was wondering if there were rules anywhere from getting poisons from other types of companions such as a pseuododragon familiar or a homonculus construct?

[Ravens_cry]

Apparently, you can milk poison (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=dg30v580ed14nd29fpnfj13465&topic=2714.msg31467#msg31467) with a DC 15 Handle Animal check, which is laughably easy if you invest even moderately in the skill. Given that many creature's poisons scale with hit dice and stats, it becomes pretty easy to get some pretty damn potent poisons this way.

[Yogibear41]

that rule is for vermin, which is what I already knew about.

[Ravens_cry]

that rule is for vermin, which is what I already knew about.
Ah, I see. I don't see any problem with extending it to such, but talk to your DM.

[Yogibear41]

Well, I was seeing if there was anything that basically says, since its your familiar/etc and its actually intelligent why do you need to make a handle animal instead of just saying hey buddy mind putting a little bit of your special stuff in this jar? Not to mention both the pseudodragon and the homunculus(using SS LA) are playable, so you might want to give the rogue in your party some special sleep poison or something.

[Crake]

Well, I was seeing if there was anything that basically says, since its your familiar/etc and its actually intelligent why do you need to make a handle animal instead of just saying hey buddy mind putting a little bit of your special stuff in this jar? Not to mention both the pseudodragon and the homunculus(using SS LA) are playable, so you might want to give the rogue in your party some special sleep poison or something.

The reason you'd still need to make a check is the same reason why players without poison use need to roll that 5%. You might screw up and prick yourself by accident. I'd allow a charater with pison use to ignore the need to roll the check though, but only with an intelligent and friendly creature.

[TuggyNE]

Well, I was seeing if there was anything that basically says, since its your familiar/etc and its actually intelligent why do you need to make a handle animal instead of just saying hey buddy mind putting a little bit of your special stuff in this jar?

Nay, that would be far too reasonable, und ve kent haff that, hey?

[Yogibear41]

und ve kent haff that, hey?

I'm afraid I have no clue as to what this means :smallfrown:

unless it means "and we can't have that"

[Yogibear41]

The reason you'd still need to make a check is the same reason why players without poison use need to roll that 5%. You might screw up and prick yourself by accident. I'd allow a charater with pison use to ignore the need to roll the check though, but only with an intelligent and friendly creature.

they still have make the check when they poison their weapon, and they still have to make a check to actually refine the poison. I just find it strange that you would have to make a handle animal check for something that has the same amount of intelligence as you do. I could see a diplomacy if the guy didn't already like you to begin with.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't think it's terribly unreasonable to ask for a skill check for a potentially dangerous act. Even if the creature in question is amicable to the idea, mistakes can still be made, especially if one doesn't have the specific training Poison Use implies.

[Socratov]

I'm afraid I have no clue as to what this means :smallfrown:

unless it means "and we can't have that"

Indeed it does (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HerrDoktor)

[Vaz]

You can "Push" which is a DC25 check to get it to do that, using Handle Animal. A druid with 3 ranks in handle animal can take 20 to get her AC to be milked without getting her hands dirty and risking poisoning herself. Considering that's something out of combat, its more than reasonable to do.

For a Familiar, from 5th level onwards, it can Speak with Master and has an Intelligence score enough to understand what is wanted of it.

[Deathcharge01]

There's a cantrip aptly named "Sample" in the Book of Eldritch Might 3 on page 38. It may be worth checking out.

Its not a rule, but it may be a viable alternative.

[HighWater]

Point 1:

Perils of Using Poison

A character has a 5% chance of exposing himself to a poison whenever he applies it to a weapon or otherwise readies it for use. Additionally, a character who rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with a poisoned weapon must make a DC 15 Reflex save or accidentally poison himself with the weapon.
I'd say it's already pretty dangerous to use poisons, without being apt with poison-making. Honestly, screwing up 1 in 20 times when dipping your arrowpoint into a poison sounds ridiculously high, before you even start using that stuff.

Point 2:
Familiars are NOT animals. They are Magical Beasts. Handle Animal does not apply. You get to communicate unerringly at level 5 with "Speak with Master", at which point the familiar has an Int of 8. Are you honestly saying that If I ask the Barbarian or Fighter (often also an Int of 8) to walk "overthere" to chop the firewood, I have a 1 in 20 chance he will instead walk over to me and chop my head off? In no way does the milking of an intelligent viper require you to hold the cup (some kind of clamp should suffice to hold it in place really). Also, downside to familiar poison is that it does not increase in potency (the bugger doesn't get racial hit dice).

Point 3:
Vermin is much more stupid than an animal. The Handle Animal check should be lower when it's an Animal Companion. Take 20 doesn't apply, as there is "some risk involved", but I don't see why take10 shouldn't work.

[Yogibear41]

This is basically my line of thinking

[Captnq]

My Sig. Get the EVD. Folder Combat Equipment.
Poison Chart v2.01.xls
Poison v2.02.doc

Everything you could ever stand to know about poisons.

Have fun.

[Vaz]

There is no risk when it is your Animal Companion. 'See that muslin covered jar? Bite it!' Taking 20 on that is fine, there is no risk to you.

[Inevitability]

I wonder how it works if you are poisonous yourself (pseudodragon came up).

You don't risk poisoning yourself, as you are immune to your own poison, but can you reasonably extract your own poison?

Or you can sell it... I'm sure people'd like some good ol' pseudodragon poison. It's pretty strong stuff.

[Urpriest]

Most creatures can't excrete poison on command. While part of the challenge is getting the animal not to bite you, there is also the challenge of overcoming its natural reflexes to get it to release poison when it's not biting anything. Most things that a dentist does to you aren't things you can do to yourself, and the same principle applies here.

[torrasque666]

Hence why when you milk a snake for venom you have it bite a thinly covered jar, and thus it reacts as if it is attacking something. Same thing should apply here, as per what Vaz said.

[Vaz]

A quick google suggests snakes are possible to be milked, but the milkers usually push down on the gland to ensure enough is taken.

On a tablet atm so harder to check, but I'm not sure how they do it for spiders/scorpions, whose exoskeleton makes it hard to do the same for them i'm guessing. Not sure on centipedes. But those last three are vermin and already accounted for.

For others, like say Lionfish, Octopi, Treefrogs, etc mmight be a bit harder.