Original Fate of the Draketooths?

[DaggerPen]

I can't find it now, and I believe it was actually in the DSTP commentary, but I remember hearing that Rich said that originally, V's Familicide wasn't planned, and that it was an element he added to the plot later. Assuming I'm remembering correctly, what I'm wondering is - what might this last book have looked like if Familicide hadn't happened? So much of the plot was dependent on the Draketooths being absent - it would have been a very different story, certainly.

[As, barring input from the author himself we are unlikely to get, we can never know for sure, I wish to make it plain: this is a speculation thread. I want to hear your ideas on alternate plot arcs that still accomplished the broad points of the book, not arguments over whether something really *is* what Rich was originally going to do.]

[zimmerwald1915]

I can't find it now, and I believe it was actually in the DSTP commentary, but I remember hearing that Rich said that originally, V's Familicide wasn't planned, and that it was an element he added to the plot later.
The way I read the Don't Split the Party commentary, it says the exact opposite. On the page facing strip #623, the Giant wrote...

"As I said in the commentary for [No Cure for the] Paladin Blues, that was my first plan for a Vaarsuvius-centered plot. What I didn't mention is that the plot was only beginning there. The seeds for the mother to return were planted, particularly in strip #188, where V him/herself states that there were two dragons living in the cave - and nothing is ever made of it. The only part that I did not have set in my mind was how V would respond to an angry dragon, and that came to me during the visit to the Oracle. V's question was practically inevitable, so I suddenly had my answer: V would gain ultimate power in order to defeat the dragon mother, who would threaten V's family."

It seems to me that there was but a short period of time when the Giant was not sure he would have V cast familicide: the between his deciding to have the Order fight the Young Adult Black Dragon and his deciding on V's question to the Oracle.

[DaggerPen]

The way I read the Don't Split the Party commentary, it says the exact opposite. On the page facing strip #623, the Giant wrote...

"As I said in the commentary for [No Cure for the] Paladin Blues, that was my first plan for a Vaarsuvius-centered plot. What I didn't mention is that the plot was only beginning there. The seeds for the mother to return were planted, particularly in strip #188, where V him/herself states that there were two dragons living in the cave - and nothing is ever made of it. The only part that I did not have set in my mind was how V would respond to an angry dragon, and that came to me during the visit to the Oracle. V's question was practically inevitable, so I suddenly had my answer: V would gain ultimate power in order to defeat the dragon mother, who would threaten V's family."

It seems to me that there was but a short period of time when the Giant was not sure he would have V cast familicide: the between his deciding to have the Order fight the Young Adult Black Dragon and his deciding on V's question to the Oracle.

Aha! I had gotten the impression that the ABD going after V and vir taking the soul splice was planned out far in advance, as well as V going after Xykon and getting smacked down to induce character development, but I had gotten the impression that the Familicide detail - and it killing the Draketooths - was not decided on until well into the storyline.

Thanks!

[Jasdoif]

...what I'm wondering is - what might this last book have looked like if Familicide hadn't happened? So much of the plot was dependent on the Draketooths being absent - it would have been a very different story, certainly.Hmm....Well, without Familicide, the Draketooths are still alive. As is Penelope, which means the Linear Guild's divination process (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) would have a couple more weeks to work.


So if I were to come up with alterations...
The Draketooths were contacted when the OOTS triggered the trap at the false Gate location (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), which warned them of potential searchers...not long before the Linear Guild, having isolated the location enough to search the area, tried to pay a visit. The Linear Guild doesn't have sufficient resources to counter the legion of illusions, though, and they regroup back at the Empire of Blood without finding the pyramid.

The whole sequence of events leading the OOTS from the explosion of the trap to arriving in the throne room of the Empress of Blood is basically unaltered. When Nale realizes Elan is there, he shifts his focus to keeping his twin out of his hair, so the events that transpire inside the Empire of Blood are also unaltered for the most part. The biggest change I'm seeing there is Penelope gives the background on the Draketooths here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) herself.

With the normal set of illusions still active, the OOTS' attempts to locate Girard's Gate are halted. But it turns out not to matter: Nale's attempt to silently trail the OOTS to grab the Gate out from under them means the Linear Guild is close enough for the Draketooths to detect and associate both groups. Since the Linear Guild now has Tarquin and Malack in it, known high-level figures on the continent; the Draketooths assume they and the OOTS are all part of a massive scheme to take over the Gate, and go on the offensive, incidentally revealing where the pyramid is. Tarquin calls up Laurin and Miron, who are uncomfortable with a "renegade" spellcaster enclave in position to interfere with their empires; and in the spellcasting cataclysm that follows, the OOTS manage to gain entry to the pyramid before the Linear Guild does. The OOTS descends the pyramid more or less immediately, as a chunk of roof falling and knocking over Girard's crypt suggests that being near the outer surface of the pyramid is a bad idea (which does mean we'd miss most of the stuff from 842 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) to 854 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html), sadly)

While the Draketooths are utterly uninterested in diplomacy since they already "know" everyone's there to take over the Gate, the threat of multiple high-level casters (and a manifester) means they can't spare people to simply scour the Order/Guild from the pyramid. Most of the scenes that transpire within the pyramid are about the same except adjusted for Vaarsuvius' presence, and with the occasional sound of spells from outside. (Durkon's vampirization, in particular, works out the same way it does now.) The illusion runes, however, would need to operate over a few minutes instead a few hours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html) for the timeframe to make sense.

Roy's decision to destroy the Gate is based not only on Xykon's impending arrival, but because the arcane cacophony outside has stopped and none of the Draketooths have arrived in the Gate room. He surmises that even if the Draketooths withstood the assault, if they don't have the spells left to teleport within their own pyramid then they're incapable of handling Xykon. The IFCC acts to prevent Vaarsuvius from mentioning the world in the rift (since Familicide was not a prerequisite for the deal with the IFCC); the only difference is that Vaarsuvius is with the OOTS (and will have some explaining to do later).

Events after that play out the same way they already do; none of the Draketooths have any further ability to meaningfully influence things at this time.
...OK, it's not perfect by any means, but I think it's reasonably thorough and I'm uninterested in devoting much time to refine this thing that won't didn't happen :smalltongue:

[DaggerPen]

Hmm....Well, without Familicide, the Draketooths are still alive. As is Penelope, which means the Linear Guild's divination process (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) would have a couple more weeks to work.


So if I were to come up with alterations...
The Draketooths were contacted when the OOTS triggered the trap at the false Gate location (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), which warned them of potential searchers...not long before the Linear Guild, having isolated the location enough to search the area, tried to pay a visit. The Linear Guild doesn't have sufficient resources to counter the legion of illusions, though, and they regroup back at the Empire of Blood without finding the pyramid.

The whole sequence of events leading the OOTS from the explosion of the trap to arriving in the throne room of the Empress of Blood is basically unaltered. When Nale realizes Elan is there, he shifts his focus to keeping his twin out of his hair, so the events that transpire inside the Empire of Blood are also unaltered for the most part. The biggest change I'm seeing there is Penelope gives the background on the Draketooths here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) herself.

With the normal set of illusions still active, the OOTS' attempts to locate Girard's Gate are halted. But it turns out not to matter: Nale's attempt to silently trail the OOTS to grab the Gate out from under them means the Linear Guild is close enough for the Draketooths to detect and associate both groups. Since the Linear Guild now has Tarquin and Malack in it, known high-level figures on the continent; the Draketooths assume they and the OOTS are all part of a massive scheme to take over the Gate, and go on the offensive, incidentally revealing where the pyramid is. Tarquin calls up Laurin and Miron, who are uncomfortable with a "renegade" spellcaster enclave in position to interfere with their empires; and in the spellcasting cataclysm that follows, the OOTS manage to gain entry to the pyramid before the Linear Guild does. The OOTS descends the pyramid more or less immediately, as a chunk of roof falling and knocking over Girard's crypt suggests that being near the outer surface of the pyramid is a bad idea (which does mean we'd miss most of the stuff from 842 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) to 854 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html), sadly)

While the Draketooths are utterly uninterested in diplomacy since they already "know" everyone's there to take over the Gate, the threat of multiple high-level casters (and a manifester) means they can't spare people to simply scour the Order/Guild from the pyramid. Most of the scenes that transpire within the pyramid are about the same except adjusted for Vaarsuvius' presence, and with the occasional sound of spells from outside. (Durkon's vampirization, in particular, works out the same way it does now.) The illusion runes, however, would need to operate over a few minutes instead a few hours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html) for the timeframe to make sense.

Roy's decision to destroy the Gate is based not only on Xykon's impending arrival, but because the arcane cacophony outside has stopped and none of the Draketooths have arrived in the Gate room. He surmises that even if the Draketooths withstood the assault, if they don't have the spells left to teleport within their own pyramid then they're incapable of handling Xykon. The IFCC acts to prevent Vaarsuvius from mentioning the world in the rift (since Familicide was not a prerequisite for the deal with the IFCC); the only difference is that Vaarsuvius is with the OOTS (and will have some explaining to do later).

Events after that play out the same way they already do; none of the Draketooths have any further ability to meaningfully influence things at this time.
...OK, it's not perfect by any means, but I think it's reasonably thorough and I'm uninterested in devoting much time to refine this thing that won't didn't happen :smalltongue:

Well, it turns out my thread premise was faulty, but I have to say that I really like that!

[Porthos]

The way I read the Don't Split the Party commentary, it says the exact opposite. On the page facing strip #623, the Giant wrote...

"As I said in the commentary for [No Cure for the] Paladin Blues, that was my first plan for a Vaarsuvius-centered plot. What I didn't mention is that the plot was only beginning there. The seeds for the mother to return were planted, particularly in strip #188, where V him/herself states that there were two dragons living in the cave - and nothing is ever made of it. The only part that I did not have set in my mind was how V would respond to an angry dragon, and that came to me during the visit to the Oracle. V's question was practically inevitable, so I suddenly had my answer: V would gain ultimate power in order to defeat the dragon mother, who would threaten V's family."

It seems to me that there was but a short period of time when the Giant was not sure he would have V cast familicide: the between his deciding to have the Order fight the Young Adult Black Dragon and his deciding on V's question to the Oracle.

That still does leave a decent sized window between the introduction of the the Order of the Scribble and The Meeting with the Oracle. If I had to guess, Rich probably hadn't yet decided the exact Final Fates of all of the Scribblers at that time (after all, the conflict that drove them apart was far more important), though he might very well have already decided that Girard had Draconic blood.

And if he had already decided that 'something' (yet to be determined) had happened to whomever was defending Girard's Gate (also possibly yet to be determined) to leave it defenseless.... Well, this would be a perfect opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. Instead of having to come up with something unrelated as to why Girard's Gate was undefended, he simply used the V's actions to do it for him.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hmm....Well, without Familicide, the Draketooths are still alive. As is Penelope, which means the Linear Guild's divination process (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) would have a couple more weeks to work.


So if I were to come up with alterations...
The Draketooths were contacted when the OOTS triggered the trap at the false Gate location (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), which warned them of potential searchers...not long before the Linear Guild, having isolated the location enough to search the area, tried to pay a visit. The Linear Guild doesn't have sufficient resources to counter the legion of illusions, though, and they regroup back at the Empire of Blood without finding the pyramid.

The whole sequence of events leading the OOTS from the explosion of the trap to arriving in the throne room of the Empress of Blood is basically unaltered. When Nale realizes Elan is there, he shifts his focus to keeping his twin out of his hair, so the events that transpire inside the Empire of Blood are also unaltered for the most part. The biggest change I'm seeing there is Penelope gives the background on the Draketooths here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) herself.

With the normal set of illusions still active, the OOTS' attempts to locate Girard's Gate are halted. But it turns out not to matter: Nale's attempt to silently trail the OOTS to grab the Gate out from under them means the Linear Guild is close enough for the Draketooths to detect and associate both groups. Since the Linear Guild now has Tarquin and Malack in it, known high-level figures on the continent; the Draketooths assume they and the OOTS are all part of a massive scheme to take over the Gate, and go on the offensive, incidentally revealing where the pyramid is. Tarquin calls up Laurin and Miron, who are uncomfortable with a "renegade" spellcaster enclave in position to interfere with their empires; and in the spellcasting cataclysm that follows, the OOTS manage to gain entry to the pyramid before the Linear Guild does. The OOTS descends the pyramid more or less immediately, as a chunk of roof falling and knocking over Girard's crypt suggests that being near the outer surface of the pyramid is a bad idea (which does mean we'd miss most of the stuff from 842 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) to 854 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html), sadly)

While the Draketooths are utterly uninterested in diplomacy since they already "know" everyone's there to take over the Gate, the threat of multiple high-level casters (and a manifester) means they can't spare people to simply scour the Order/Guild from the pyramid. Most of the scenes that transpire within the pyramid are about the same except adjusted for Vaarsuvius' presence, and with the occasional sound of spells from outside. (Durkon's vampirization, in particular, works out the same way it does now.) The illusion runes, however, would need to operate over a few minutes instead a few hours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html) for the timeframe to make sense.

Roy's decision to destroy the Gate is based not only on Xykon's impending arrival, but because the arcane cacophony outside has stopped and none of the Draketooths have arrived in the Gate room. He surmises that even if the Draketooths withstood the assault, if they don't have the spells left to teleport within their own pyramid then they're incapable of handling Xykon. The IFCC acts to prevent Vaarsuvius from mentioning the world in the rift (since Familicide was not a prerequisite for the deal with the IFCC); the only difference is that Vaarsuvius is with the OOTS (and will have some explaining to do later).

Events after that play out the same way they already do; none of the Draketooths have any further ability to meaningfully influence things at this time.
...OK, it's not perfect by any means, but I think it's reasonably thorough and I'm uninterested in devoting much time to refine this thing that won't didn't happen :smalltongue:
Very nice theory! However, wouldn't the Draketooths be able to have some effect on the later battle, or prevent Laurin from looking in the rift?

Out of curiosity (I wasn't here at the time) did anyone on the forum guess what had happened before Girard's relation to dragons was revealed?

[Keltest]

Very nice theory! However, wouldn't the Draketooths be able to have some effect on the later battle, or prevent Laurin from looking in the rift?

Out of curiosity (I wasn't here at the time) did anyone on the forum guess what had happened before Girard's relation to dragons was revealed?

I wasn't here either, but given that the name is Draketooth, if there wasn't a camp arguing that V killed them, I think the forums would have exploded.

[Gift Jeraff]

Draketooth Clan captures OOTS and enters into a stalemate versus the Linear Guild (unless Penelope's lack of death causes a different chain of events that doesn't get Tarquin and Mal to join the LG, in which case Nale and whoever's with him are also captured or teleport out of there).

Xykon arrives. OOTS plus Draketooths team up to fight Xykon. LG teams up with either side planning to betray them. Laurin, Miron, and eventually Julio arrive and stall Xykon enough for someone to blow up Gate.

Durkon and Nale's chances of survival are about the same as everyone else's. Malack, Z, Yukyuk, and all those poor mooks still seem likely to die.

[BaronOfHell]

The Draketooth's scry the area of the explosion where they see Elan and his warning. Shortly afterwards Nale and his team arrives, they believe Nale to be Elan.

1) Once the Order arrives, Nale and the Draketooth's delay them just long enough so once Xykon arrives he gets the upper hand and it looks like victory is at his bony fingertips. The cavalry arrives in the form of the Vector Legion who'd shadowed the Order and Nale ultimately realizes his wrong doings, sacrifices himself and dies at a hero. Doing this big clash throughout the pyramid Durkon both happens to find out Malack is a vampire and once they get isolated together, Durkon tries to slay Malack, but gets vamped in stead.

2) Once the Order arrives, they find the Draketooth's prepared for them, one of the very first warnings are the corpses of Nale and his Linear Guild hung up as a warning for others who might pursue the gate. Tarquin & his crew once again shadows the Order, but once Tarquin sees Nale's corpse he loses it and this ultimately leads to the destruction of the Draketooth's, and once Xykon arrives, the destruction of the Vector Legion, with Roy & Xykon having their epic final battle... and Roy's not yet quite able to take on Xykon despite his new anti caster feat, but manages to delay him enough so the Gate can be blown to pieces.

[zimmerwald1915]

I wasn't here either, but given that the name is Draketooth, if there wasn't a camp arguing that V killed them, I think the forums would have exploded.
I remember there being such a camp, though not who was in it. I'm sure they were insufferable when the reveal came :smalltongue:

[jere7my]

Out of curiosity (I wasn't here at the time) did anyone on the forum guess what had happened before Girard's relation to dragons was revealed?

After 841 was posted, I believe I was the first person on the forum to add "dead people named Draketooth" to "squiggles on wall that look like a family tree with a dragon at the top" and get "Familicide," though I could be mistaken. Edit: And the familicide guess was common by the first page of the 841 discussion thread, if not before.

My insufferability may be left as an exercise for the reader.

[Keltest]

After 841 was posted, I believe I was the first person on the forum to add "dead people named Draketooth" to "squiggles on wall that look like a family tree with a dragon at the top" and get "Familicide," though I could be mistaken.

My insufferability may be left as an exercise for the reader.

Im sure you didn't go past appropriate levels of insufferability.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

After 841 was posted, I believe I was the first person on the forum to add "dead people named Draketooth" to "squiggles on wall that look like a family tree with a dragon at the top" and get "Familicide," though I could be mistaken. Edit: And the familicide guess was common by the first page of the 841 discussion thread, if not before.

My insufferability may be left as an exercise for the reader.

Fascinating. I didn't think that that many people would guess it, but then I remembered that with all the guessing that goes on in this forum, at least one prediction per strip will be right. :smallbiggrin:

[DaggerPen]

IIRC, someone actually jokingly suggested it shortly after the false coordinates reveal and about fell over when the reveal happened, but I don't think anyone seriously proposed it until the "dead Draketooths" page.

[Gift Jeraff]

Earliest I can find:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147990-OOTS-712-The-Discussion-Thread&p=8231793&viewfull=1#post8231793