The power of Nature! (Druid builds) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

eggynack

2014-05-01, 12:02 PM

There are lots of good druid builds, depending on what you want to do, and a couple of nifty druid archetypes. One of the big differences between druid building and not-druid building is that druids benefit from being somewhat unfocused. So, you're better off doing something like greenbound summoning, natural bond, natural spell, exalted wild shape than doing something like greenbound summoning, ashbound, natural spell, rashemi elemental summoning. The first feat in a given line just has that much more marginal benefit than the second.

On that note, I suppose I should start with Orcy (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=811638), which is a high power 8th level druid that I designed for arguing purposes. It's pretty much just a standard half-orc build, running the relevant substitution levels, with a mass of high powered feats. The 9th and 12th level feat slots are currently open, so for those slots you'd want one out of exalted, dragon, or aberration wild shape, the latter of which requires two feats, and then the other slot is a bit open. Initiate of nature is pretty cool, and it fits in with the character's high wild empathy check. It might also be worth picking up both exalted and dragon wild shape, as they provide different sorts of utility, or maybe devoting the other slot to companion spellbond, because share spells is the best way to make an animal companion useful into higher levels.

After that, I suppose I should break down one of the archetypes I mentioned above, in this case the shifter archetype. That's a shifter druid, running the first and fourth level substitution levels, with the level breakdown looking like druid 8/moonspeaker 4/druid 8. This build doesn't have an animal companion, so it can afford to specialize in summoning more than usual. That fits in well with what shifter stuff does. Thus, when I last constructed the build, the feat breakdown was greenbound summoning, ashbound, natural spell, rashemi elemental summoning, dragon wild shape, and then the last two slots are pretty open.

Red Fel

2014-05-01, 12:05 PM

I'll make the obvious joke about straight Druid 20 being one of the most powerful builds in the game, and move along.

Allow me to propose mine. Shifter Druid 8/ Moonspeaker 12. Take the Shifter Druid 1 and Shifter Druid 4 racial substitution levels; ignore the 5th-level one. Choose the Dreamsight Shifter Trait for a +2 Wis bonus while Shifted. (This becomes permanent later on.) Moonspeaker gives full Druid casting progression, Moonspeaker -4 Wild Shape progression, several useful new summons and boosts to summoning, DR and energy resistance/immunity, and Gate.

Your feats are mostly irrelevant. Obviously Natural Spell is priceless. Greenbound or Ashbound summoning to augment your summoning. Dip Cloistered Cleric and grab Knowledge Devotion along with some DMM Persist if you're feeling cheesy. Maybe take a Wild Shape feat, like Dragon Wild Shape or Frozen Wild Shape.

Be a boss.

TrueJordan

2014-05-01, 12:14 PM

Exalted companion with VoP is always nice.

Darkweave31

2014-05-01, 12:19 PM

Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 is quite powerful depending on the plane you shepherd. If you're in Eberron and you pick Dal Quor for instance you can enjoy a planar bubble where time passes faster allowing you to take (I think) 10 rounds to 1 outside the bubble.

http://clickdamage.com/motivator/motivator_bank/674.jpg

Mnemnosyne

2014-05-01, 12:38 PM

Personally I love Aberration Wildshape combined with the enhance wildshape spell on a primarily spellcasting druid, to permit going into will-o-wisp form and becoming invisible, with fantastic deflection AC and magic immunity, in addition to perfect 50 ft. flight speed. Goes well with the druid's summoning. The invisible flying druid summons monsters to deal with everything, and most enemies can't even see the druid doing the summoning, and those that can will still have trouble hitting her because of the base 29 AC the form grants...

It's basically straight druid, with feats:
L1: Greenbound Summoning, Aberration Blood. If flaws, Assume Supernatural Ability, Gatekeeper Initiate.
L3: Extend Spell OR Ashbound.
L6: Natural Spell.
L9: Aberration Wild Shape.
L12: Dragon Wild Shape OR Rashemi Elemental Summoning.
L15: Rashemi Elemental Summoning OR Dragon Wild Shape.

If you've got flaws for Assume Supernatural Ability, a number of other shapes become valuable. The Gatekeeper Initiate feat is nice because it consolidates knowledge checks for aberrations under Knowledge: the Planes, giving you a double bang for your buck there and mostly removing the need for Knowledge: Dungeoneering. Also because it puts mind blank on your list at 8th level. Dimensional anchor and dimensional lock are also really nice abilities to have available, as is the simple protection from evil. Good equipment is the trappings of the beast from Complete Champion, and of course the traditional monk's belt with wilding clasp.

eggynack

2014-05-01, 03:13 PM

those that can will still have trouble hitting her because of the base 29 AC the form grants...
I'm not sure on this count. 9 of that 29 AC comes from a deflection bonus with no apparent source. This isn't natural armor, so you don't just automatically get it, and it's not definitely an Ex special quality, so enhance wild shape doesn't necessarily grant it. This seems like one of those things that's ambiguous at best, and that just doesn't work at worst. It's a great form though.

Yorrin

2014-05-01, 04:58 PM

i've never seen a detailded Druid build.

The problem with this statement is with the term "build," at least as I understand it, because Druid 20 is not a build. Even Druid 20 with a lot of nice feats isn't really a build, it's just a class. "Build," in my mind, involves multiclassing and/or prestige classing, and the fact is that Druids don't really need to do any of that to be effective. Moonspeaker and Planar Shepherd have already been mentioned in this thread as some good Druid PrCs, and an early-entry Arcane Heirophant can also be a lot of fun, but realistically Druid 20 is already so effective at what it does (Wildshaping, BFC, healing, etc) that none of that is necessary. Being good at Druid is a matter of knowing what feats to pick and what wildshapes to use, rather than what PrCs or dips to go for.

WinWin

2014-05-02, 08:55 AM

Druid 7+/Vermin Lord 10 Add Child of Winter feat.

Technically this is a Sorcerer build. You gain the advantages of a 3rd edition Hivemind, including spellcasting, due to the way the capstone ability of Vermin Lord is worded. You get to ignore the 3.5 update, yay! Let your Vermin pets benifit from the improved spellcasting stats (The Druids stats are unaffected by the Hivemind, his vermin companions do not suffer this restriction). Profit.

For extra fun and games, choose LA+0 Hairy Spiders with class levels as your Vermin Companions.

nedz

2014-05-02, 09:18 AM

The problem with this statement is with the term "build," at least as I understand it, because Druid 20 is not a build. Even Druid 20 with a lot of nice feats isn't really a build, it's just a class. "Build," in my mind, involves multiclassing and/or prestige classing, and the fact is that Druids don't really need to do any of that to be effective. Moonspeaker and Planar Shepherd have already been mentioned in this thread as some good Druid PrCs, and an early-entry Arcane Heirophant can also be a lot of fun, but realistically Druid 20 is already so effective at what it does (Wildshaping, BFC, healing, etc) that none of that is necessary. Being good at Druid is a matter of knowing what feats to pick and what wildshapes to use, rather than what PrCs or dips to go for.

Druid 20 is a build. You have Feat and ACF choices, it's just that you decided not to multiclass or use a PrC.

Also: Spellchoice is kind of important to being good at playing a Druid.

.Zero

2014-05-02, 05:13 PM

eggynack

2014-05-02, 05:23 PM

I don't have time to write much right now, so i'll be quick: Greenbound Summoning is really worth it? I mean, i know your summoned animals willhave nice stats bonuses and they got to cast Entangle and Wall of Thorns, but you loose the ability to buff 'em with gems like Animal Growth and Nature's Avatar... and what about the time when elementals become very much useful and stronger than animals (especially if you took Rashemi Elemental Summoning)? I'm feeling like that's a waste of a feat.
The buffs on the animals are roughly in line with what you're getting from those spells, if not better, except you're getting them without having to cast additional spells. Greenbound admittedly does go a bit downhill when you get access to rashemi at 9th, or huge elementals at 11th, but those summons are still quite good. I mean, you're still able to spontaneously cast wall of thorns out of a first level slot, and that's pretty ridiculous.

Really, what this means is that you should usually pick greenbound if you're starting at low level, and that you should usually pick rashemi if you're starting later. Ultimately, greenbound is far too utterly broken to be a waste of a feat. That spontaneous wall of thorns thing happens at level one, and the stat boosts and other abilities are massive, making the summons incredibly durable, and granting them massive grapple checks. You're getting a lot. I mean, really, just sit down and read the statblock of this greenbound and augmented giant crocodile (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=821940). It's insane. Greenbound is the kinda feat where you read it once, and you say, "What the hell, why do they get that ability?" and then you come back to it later, and say, "Whoa, I completely missed that broken thing," and then that happens another three or four times.

Mnemnosyne

2014-05-02, 05:38 PM

If you're actually playing at lower levels, greenbound summoning is very worth it. If you're starting at high levels, it's more questionable, and yet still probably worth it, I think. Sure, you can't buff the animals you summon with animal-only buffs, but with the buffs the greenbound template gives, why would you want to? You're basically giving up the ability to spend spells and actions buffing your summons for the ability to have your summons be badass right off the bat, without having to spend any spells or actions on it. Anywhere up to 8 or 10th level at the least, greenbound summoning basically means the only reason you'd have to cast two spells during the same encounter is if your summon doesn't last long enough to kill everything, because the vast majority of enemies ain't gonna kill your summon. If, at high levels, you find greenbound summoning not being useful, then switch it out. Retrain it via PHB II rules, or pay someone to manifest psychic reformation, or get a dark chaos feat shuffle done. But until you get to high levels, that feat is invaluable.

As for Arcane Hierophant builds, I didn't mention them since you wanted druid builds, but really, you can simply insert a single level of wizard and an early entry trick into my build up there, and you get 11 levels of wizard casting and a better animal companion. If you use the Enhanced Summoning conjurer variant from Unearthed Arcana, you get free Augment Summoning, too, without having to blow a feat on Spell Focus Conjuration. Trade away your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt while you're at it, because Arcane Hierophant doesn't require that you have a familiar in order to get the companion familiar benefits.

TrueJordan

2014-05-02, 06:17 PM

I'd like to go on record saying Storm Elemental summoning are great, especially at later levels, especially with buffs and feats.

DruidAlanon

2014-05-02, 08:52 PM

Greenbound
natural spell
ashbound
rashemi
natural bond

There are a few overpowered feats to choose from and if you're careful you won't go wrong. You pump up wisdom and constitution and that's it.

The most difficult part is to select your everyday spells. Blinding spittle, keplstrand, primal instict, arctic haze, etc.

I play a druid for several months and I just got into higher levels. I can kill our fighter and our sorcerer at the same time without even asking my direwolf for help.
It's a broken class and you just have to take natural spell, rashemi and the right spells.

Talya

2014-05-02, 09:40 PM

eggynack

2014-05-02, 10:04 PM

Druid 20 is so powerful without multiclassing that I'm enjoying playing one with VoP ... Which while being a net power loss for a druid, actually raises the optimization floor for them and lets you play solely for style and fun without ever risking your choices making you ineffectual.
As a vaguely arbitrary thing, are you running it with words of creation? I originally thought it was super bard focused, but then I read it again, and it seems pretty sweet on druids. I don't see it tossed around very much in conjunction with VoP, relative to what I perceive to be its power level. It's probably because of the prerequisites, because they're pretty hard to achieve, though when you're basically getting access to free extension on phantom stag, obscuring snow, and wood wose, it might be worth going out of your way a bit.

Talya

2014-05-03, 05:00 PM

As a vaguely arbitrary thing, are you running it with words of creation? I originally thought it was super bard focused, but then I read it again, and it seems pretty sweet on druids. I don't see it tossed around very much in conjunction with VoP, relative to what I perceive to be its power level. It's probably because of the prerequisites, because they're pretty hard to achieve, though when you're basically getting access to free extension on phantom stag, obscuring snow, and wood wose, it might be worth going out of your way a bit.

Oh that's neat.
I qualify for the prereqs already, too. And since it's an exalted feat, it's free.

Edit: Hmm. No other Conjuration (Creation) spells with a duration? Blood Creepers, Bones of the Earth, Climbing Tree, Cometstrike, Conjure Ice Beast (I-IX), Conjure Ice Object, Death Hail, Deep Breath...oh my. Okay, there are likely a lot.

eggynack

2014-05-03, 05:15 PM

Oh that's neat.
I qualify for the prereqs already, too. And since it's an exalted feat, it's free.
Sweet. I'm a bit of a fan, as it's almost maybe good enough to be a normal feat, if you squint. Also, if you take it early enough, then it makes wall of smoke viable during the levels where it would otherwise be bad due to duration issues. There's also that caster level boost effect, which is significantly less interesting, but it has nice interactions, especially with leonal's roar.

The really tragic thing, though, is that even with words of creation, along with all of the other cool exalted feats a druid can get, I still can't construct a full list of 11 exalted feats which doesn't make me feel like crap by the end. The last one I tried ended up with defenders of the homeland, which is just not good. Exacerbating the issue is that some of the lower end feats, like sanctify natural attack, or animal friend, actually get worse the later you take them, especially in the former case, because VoP naturally makes your natural attacks good aligned by 10th anyway. They just did not think that part of the feat through.

Talya

2014-05-03, 05:33 PM

Sweet. I'm a bit of a fan, as it's almost maybe good enough to be a normal feat, if you squint. Also, if you take it early enough, then it makes wall of smoke viable during the levels where it would otherwise be bad due to duration issues. There's also that caster level boost effect, which is significantly less interesting, but it has nice interactions, especially with leonal's roar.

The really tragic thing, though, is that even with words of creation, along with all of the other cool exalted feats a druid can get, I still can't construct a full list of 11 exalted feats which doesn't make me feel like crap by the end. The last one I tried ended up with defenders of the homeland, which is just not good. Exacerbating the issue is that some of the lower end feats, like sanctify natural attack, or animal friend, actually get worse the later you take them, especially in the former case, because VoP naturally makes your natural attacks good aligned by 10th anyway. They just did not think that part of the feat through.

Nymph's Kiss, Exalted Companion, Exalted Wildshape, Animal Friend, Words of Creation, Touch of Golden Ice, Sanctified Natural Attack (still not bad for the bonus damage), Nimbus of Light/Holy Radiance, then it gets sparse.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-05-03, 05:39 PM

Talya

2014-05-03, 05:46 PM

Yeah, Druid is one of the few classes that can get decent exalted feats for at least the first 10 levels, maybe through 14th. Having a high charisma helps a lot, too, since for some reason so many require Cha 15. There's also Intuitive Attack (for when out of wildshape, or using a form w/ high dex / poor str?) and that crappy +1 to a roll 1/day feat that serves as a feat tax for Lion of Talisid.

Yeah. I'm using rich burlew's "Fey Druid" variant that uses Charisma instead of wisdom for casting. Works well with VOP. Not going Lion of Talisid, though. Sure, it's a good PrC...but it's not her style.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-05-03, 06:22 PM

It's not so much about the build itself as using the right spells, items, and feats.

Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend are one of the best things to have for buffs and short-duration offensive spells. Buffs would include Longstrider, Greater Magic Fang (+1 to everything), Barkskin, Bear's Strength, etc. Offensive spells that go well with that include Creeping Cold (deals 21d6 over six rounds at level 3), Kelpstrand, and Sleet Storm. You can also use it when you cast Bone Talisman (Turning) with Unguent of Timelessness on the spell foci. You can use it with Produce Flame to get twice as many hits with it, and per holding the charge on a touch spell it goes off every time you come into contact with a creature, such as making a natural weapon attack, though casting another spell while holding a touch spell immediately ends it.

In the higher levels, a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power gets you Superior Resistance and Energy Immunity five times continuously active for only two 6th level spells/day. That means complete immunity to all five energy types and a +6 Resistance bonus to saves for just those two items and two spell slots.

Greenbound Summoning is one of the strongest feats in the game. Take it at 1st level and use Summon Nature's Ally I to get a Greenbound Dire Rat, which can immediately drop a Wall of Thorns on up to four opponents, automatically trapping them. It can be two connected 5x10 ft. areas, and it lasts for ten minutes and is extremely difficult to destroy or escape from, making anyone unlucky enough to get stuck in it a sitting duck especially at that level. Note that spell-like abilities have no minimum caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities), a 1 HD rat can use a spell-like ability that duplicates a 5th level spell at a caster level of one. Get a Ring of the Beast and your SNA I can get a Greenbound Dire Bat, and SNA III can get a Unicorn which has a constant Magic Circle Against Evil and it can use Cure Light/Moderate Wounds and Neutralize Poison on your party.

Frostburn introduces a completely unfair spell combo in Snowsight + Obscuring Snow. The first is a 1st level hour/level spell that lets the target see normally despite snow conditions. The second is a 2nd level hour/level spell that generates a huge area of blinding snowstorm around you that moves with you. That basically means your opponents cannot see you or anyone else in the snowstorm, but anyone you've cast Snowsight on can see normally. Granted the gigantic cloud of swirling snow will be visible for miles, but nobody will know what's inside and the area is too big for it to be destroyed or dispersed by most spells or effects.

There are other extremely powerful spells in Frostburn, such as Call Avalanche which is one of the strongest crowd controls in the game (unless they have a burrow speed), and Blood Snow which makes a snowy area deal Con drain every round to anyone within, including those buried under your avalanche. There are tons of other extremely effective offensive spells on the Druid list, they're basically just as good as a Wizard in that regard.

Your animal companion is often going to be more powerful than another character in the party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html) all by itself. Take Natural Bond and you can get a 'level -3' companion, apply the -3 first and then the +3 for Natural Bond to still count your full Druid level toward its benefits. A Fleshraker dinosaur or a Dire Eagle are probably the strongest choices. You can take Exalted Companion and get a Celestial version, which makes it good aligned, and give the animal companion Vow of Poverty so it gets the benefits of having a full set of gear without spending any gold. For a Fleshraker you can cast Venomfire on it and it adds 1d6 per caster level acid damage to all three of its attacks that deliver poison. You can use Handle Animal to add the Warbeast template to whatever animal companion you get. Even at 1st level a war-trained Riding Dog with the Warbeast template is going to be contributing just as much as having another Fighter in the party.

Later on Wild Shape alone lets you be amazing at melee combat without even planning for it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html). Adding buffs on top of that such as Enhance Wild Shape or a Bite of the Werecreature will just make you that much stronger. You could make buffs persistent, but you don't need to do that. Between Longstrider and Cloud Wings and Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire and Primal Hunter/Instinct/Senses/Speed and the Energy Immunity and Superior Resistance trick above, you'll have plenty of buffs always active without Persistent Spell. Stormrage is nice to be able to fly in any form plus its other benefits, but since you can wild shape into flying forms anyway it's not even necessary.

A Monk's Belt will give you the AC bonus and unarmed damage of a Monk 5, including adding your Wis bonus to AC. Wild armor and shields still meld into your form when you Wild Shape, and even though you'll still benefit from their AC bonuses you won't be considered to be wearing armor or carrying a shield, so that Monk AC bonus will still apply. You can also cast (Greater) Luminous Armor every day for nearly free (get a Rod of Bodily Restoration). You can get a Wilding Clasp for any item you want to function when you Wild Shape, or there are items that have this built in such as the Raiment of the Stormwalker set and the Trappings of the Beast set. Note that any mundane functions of an item with a Wildling Clasp on it will also continue to function when you Wild Shape, such as a belt's purpose of holding other items. You can add multiple new effects to an existing item per DMG p282 and/or MIC p234, so a Ring of the Beast can also be a Ring of Sustenance, though you'll be paying 50% more for the Ring of Sustenance effect.

You can do all of this with a single-classed Druid, no special multiclassing or prestige classes are even necessary. I guess my point is, it's not so much about building the character correctly as it is about playing the character correctly. You can read a Druid handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) or copy a build someone else made, but that won't automatically mean the character is going to perform well when you're playing it. You need to be aware of what tools your character has available and when to use which ones, and the reason a given class is Tier 1 is because of how many different tools it has available.

.Zero

2014-05-05, 01:47 AM

It's not so much about the build itself as using the right spells, items, and feats.

That's exactly how i feel. I don't see much raw power by itself (a part from simple combos like wildshape + bite of the werebear and the like) thus it is quite difficult to me to see the true power of the class. It's not like a wizard, which becomes stronger and stronger simply adding some PrCs and metamagic.

Anyway, the druid seems suffering a lot from dispelling. How can someone be protected against it? And more, is Craft Contingent Spell a good feat for druids?

eggynack

2014-05-05, 01:55 AM

That's exactly how i feel. I don't see much raw power by itself (a part from simple combos like wildshape + bite of the werebear and the like) thus it is quite difficult to me to see the true power of the class. It's not like a wizard, which becomes stronger and stronger simply adding some PrCs and metamagic.
I'm not even sure what this means. Druids are fine all on their lonesome, which indicates the maximum possible level of raw power. The true power of the class is that you're a full caster off of an immense list, with an ability that grants a variety of powerful buffs that last all day, and an ability that grants the aid of what is roughly a fighter equivalent. Bite of the werebear+wild shape is at a decent level of druid competence, but there are other and more powerful ways you could be using your spells, like summoning or battlefield control.

Anyway, the druid seems suffering a lot from dispelling. How can someone be protected against it?
They are somewhat vulnerable to it, owing to the high power level associated with their all day buffs. The two biggest ways to protect against it are a ring of counterspelling, keyed to (greater) dispel magic, or, when you get higher up in level, a ring of spell-battle. They make for pretty good purchases.

ddude987

2014-05-05, 01:58 AM

Would you recommend spellblade on something to stop dispelling as well? Perhaps armor spikes on barding that you wear while in animal form or something similar.

eggynack

2014-05-05, 02:06 AM

Would you recommend spellblade on something to stop dispelling as well? Perhaps armor spikes on barding that you wear while in animal form or something similar.
That'd probably work too, though it seems like it'd be trickier to make use of that in a wild shape. You pick up a ring of the beast, toss the ability of a ring of counterspells on it, and there ya go. I'm not sure exactly how you'd go about it with the spellblade, and the armor solution suffers a bit from my general preference for unarmored druids. The spellblade also suffers some due to the fact that it doesn't stop the area mode, and because you can't swap out dispel magic for the greater version when the latter becomes the dispel magic of choice.

.Zero

2014-05-05, 01:26 PM

I'm not even sure what this means.

Well, Wizards get Incantatrix, Shadowcraft Mage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Archmage and Hathran. These classes, along with metamagic feats and the widest and best spell list in the game allows Wizards to become unstoppable and to do everything. Druids get, uhm, Planar Shepherd, which is horribly broken (thus i'm not going to consider it in any purpose). Druids are stand-alone charachters, but this is a bane and a blessing. They can do melee, can do sneak, can do spellcasting, battlefield control all by the basic structure of the class, but... that's it, and Druids can't do all these things at the same time like Wizards. Wizards must achieve acknowledgement of what they're goin to face, sure, but where a Druid can do BFC, buffing and healing, Wizards have world-shaping and reality-altering spells, like Time Stop, Gate, Genesis, Astral Projection, Plane Shift, Mordenkainen's Disjunction and i'm pretty sure there are some other broken spells. Wiz can "wildshape" better than a Druid with Alter self, Polymorph, Draconic Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object. And they get Contingent Celerity, rendering them able to break action economy in a way a Druid can never do (aside from Dal Quori Planar Shapherd or Aberrant Wild Shape in a Thoon Elder Brain).

A Druid can do these things (not really anything, though), but they need to get feats, domains or particular PrCs that doesn't feel like a Druid (i.e. getting DMM, Travel, Time, Trickery, Magic, Spell, Undeath domains, Arcane Hierophant etc.). I'm not going to transform this thread in "Druid vs Wizard: who's stronger?" and I still believe Druids deserve the tier1. Also, they are one of my favourite classes more than a Wizard build can ever be, but, well, here's what i think of their power.

I mean, Wizard is a "ok, you have the potential of doing anything and the splatbook support of being anything, you have no limits!", it's a build-your-own-charachter class. On the other side, Druids (like Clerics) have a "better" fluffed class concept and i think it is funny to stay within it. I mean, that's basically why someone decides to play a Druid or a Cleric instead of a more generic Wizard.

However, I still have an unaswered question: is Craft Contingent Spell a good feat for Druids? And if yes, which are good contingent spells?
And can any of you link me some good Druid or Arcane Hierophant builds? Thanks.

Talya

2014-05-05, 02:51 PM

The thing is, when people discuss the phenomenal cosmic power of wizards, they are not talking about Incantatrix (or any other PrC). Incantatrix is just downright broken (as much as Planar Shepherd, really), a single classed Wizard 20 is still a god.

It is not the prestige classes that break Tier 1s/2s. It's the spells. And as eggynack will argue, the Druid spell list is consistently and greatly underestimated. People have very little idea exactly how much it can do.

eggynack

2014-05-05, 03:05 PM

I'm not really sure what you're asking for when you ask for druid builds. I've posted two reasonable ones already, after all. What does the word "build" even mean to you? Is it just a character with prestige classes? Cause that seems like an unnecessarily narrow definition. I mean, we could always kill two birds with one stone in the manner you've indicated, running a dip in holt warden and contemplative for full access to the spell domain. Moreover, if you really think druids don't get access to any broken prestige classes, then you haven't looked at the hathran . Frigging spontaneous access to the druid list all the time, along with eventual access to circle magic, and leadership is inexplicably a prerequisite. I'm surprised it doesn't get mentioned more, though that might be because it's too silly. (Actually, you have looked at it, but ignored it for druid use. Wizards don't even get acorn of far travel on their list, so it seems to be an odd omission to me).

Anyway, Tayla is correct, that the druid list can do a whole hell of a lot if you know where to look. For example, your list of reality altering wizard things was constructed of nothing but 9th's, which can all be reasonably approximated with sufficient application of shapechange, and planeshift, which can be approximated with animate with the spirit for a movanic deva. Druids get far more than just BFC's, healing, and buffs, with access to a reasonable range of teleportation, divination, direct damage, minionmancy, and buffs that go far beyond your example of bite of the X. As for the wizard out-wild shaping the druid, I'm honestly pretty doubtful at most levels on the basis of duration alone.

As for your final two questions, I haven't really done significant research into the applicability of contingent spells to druidry, though my suspicion is that it's good, but less good than it is on wizards, and I can't think of all that much on the topic of arcane hierophant beyond a standard druid 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 2/arcane hierophant 10/mystic theurge 2. I mean, there's always early entry, including the classic bamboo spirit folk method, but I've never gone in on that sort of thing.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-05-05, 03:16 PM

Regarding Hathran, a Druid/Hathran can cast Acorn of Far Travel (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) and always be considered to be standing under that particular tree, thus you're always considered to be in Rashamen. You can put Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) on that acorn and use a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend to make it last two years per caster level.

Furthermore, if you dip a single level of Wizard on that character to get a spellbook, you can fill that book with Wizard spells and they're considered to be spells you know. Rashemi Spirit Magic allows you to spontaneously cast any spell you know even if it's not from the same class spell list as the slot you spent on it, so that gives a Druid access to the entire Wizard spell list. If not for the restriction of one regional feat per character, you could have just spent a feat on Magical Training to do this, but you need to take Ethran to qualify for Hathran.

.Zero

2014-05-06, 05:28 PM

The fact is that Druid is a lot less popular than Wizard, Sorcerer and Cleric and consequently people tend to not know much about its best spells, combos, and generally speaking capabilities.

I saw a boatload of wizardry builds and there are thousands and thousands pages in which people discuss Wizard power, capabilities and builds, thus people is more or less aware of what Wizards can do.

On the other side i found only a few discussions about Druid, and the vast majority of them simply tells us that "Druid is one of the most powerful and versatile classes of the game" without explaining how or why. I was really happy when i read about Biffoniacus' middle-aged snow elf Druid (linked in my OP) because i realized how powerful a Druid can be. At first glance. Yes, because after i read it more and more times it doesn't really seemed like a Druid. His persistomancy made him seem like a Cleric with Druid spells to me.

I mean, let's talk about niches.
A Wizard is the guy with the best spell list, best PrCs, best dirty tricks (this part involves even Aalmost everything a Druid and a Cleric can do) and is the one that gets the most out of metamagic feats.
A Cleric is the guy that does DMM, huge buffs, summoning and melee, and his acces to domains lets him cast some good Wizard-only spells.
Druid is the one that does wild shape, BFC, huge buffs, summoning, melee and has a powerful pet following him.

In general, i like that a given build focuses itself doing these things, mostly for an aesthetical factor. Sure i know there are Wizards, Clerics or Druids that do other things, and i like 'em. So giving a Druid access to domains, a turn/rebuke pool, or somehow arcane spells really feels bad to me. If this is the case, you aren't really a Druid. And if you want prestige with Hathran, you choose to give up your companion and your wild shape, which should be you main reasons to play a Druid.

The purpose of this thread was to understand the potential of Druid without giving him access to things that do not belong to his class concept, fluff and niche (like DMM, domains, non-druidry PrCS etc.).
I mean, even a fighter or a monk reach that "above mediocrity" line if they gish.
And the more i go on, the more i feel like Druids are one step behind Clerics and two steps behind Wizards, Archivists and Artificiers, resulting in the very low Tier1.
Sure I'm inexperienced but i really want to know what a Druid is capable of only counting on his class concept (i.e. animal companion, wild shape, BFC, melee and summoning)

Regarding the Wizard polymorph capabilities, I'm ok with that a Druid can stay in wild shape 24/7, but in order to be effective a Druid *needs* to do that. A Wizard, simply, doesn't. He can stay in his original form most of the time and still be continuously protected and effective. And overall, Wizards get best forms available. A Druid needs to spend feats, instead, and even if he does it, he will never achieve that big amount of gold

nedz

2014-05-06, 07:13 PM

No no no, you map your classes to your character concept — not the other way around.

E.g.
If your character concept says Ice Nature Mystic then go with Druid+'Ice' domain OR Cleric with 'Ice' domain as you prefer.
(I know that there isn't an actual Ice domain, but that's not the point)

If your character concept says Ice Nature Mystic with a Polar Bear then the Druid+'Ice' domain option fits best.

eggynack

2014-05-06, 07:26 PM

The fact is that Druid is a lot less popular than Wizard, Sorcerer and Cleric and consequently people tend to not know much about its best spells, combos, and generally speaking capabilities.
This doesn't seem accurate. Those classes tend to have more complicated builds, but druids are plenty popular.

I saw a boatload of wizardry builds and there are thousands and thousands pages in which people discuss Wizard power, capabilities and builds, thus people is more or less aware of what Wizards can do.

On the other side i found only a few discussions about Druid, and the vast majority of them simply tells us that "Druid is one of the most powerful and versatile classes of the game" without explaining how or why. I was really happy when i read about Biffoniacus' middle-aged snow elf Druid (linked in my OP) because i realized how powerful a Druid can be. At first glance. Yes, because after i read it more and more times it doesn't really seemed like a Druid. His persistomancy made him seem like a Cleric with Druid spells to me.

There are plenty of threads about druids. I should know, as I make a point of reading nearly all of them.

Druid is the one that does wild shape, BFC, huge buffs, summoning, melee and has a powerful pet following him.
As I've noted, you're leaving off quite a lot of spells. This is especially true if "huge buffs" only includes melee stuff to the exclusion of spells like heart of water, primal instinct, and friendly fire.

In general, i like that a given build focuses itself doing these things, mostly for an aesthetical factor. Sure i know there are Wizards, Clerics or Druids that do other things, and i like 'em. So giving a Druid access to domains, a turn/rebuke pool, or somehow arcane spells really feels bad to me. If this is the case, you aren't really a Druid. And if you want prestige with Hathran, you choose to give up your companion and your wild shape, which should be you main reasons to play a Druid.
Whether they feel bad to you personally doesn't seem all that relevant in the general sense, as there are plenty of people they feel just fine for. As for your contention that prestiging into hathran "gives up" your animal companion and wild shape, no it doesn't. Dipping into hathran for a level costs one level of advancement for each class feature, which is negligible for most purposes.

The purpose of this thread was to understand the potential of Druid without giving him access to things that do not belong to his class concept, fluff and niche (like DMM, domains, non-druidry PrCS etc.).
If you're going to reject pretty much anything but a druid 20, you're going to get a lot of druid 20.

Sure I'm inexperienced but i really want to know what a Druid is capable of only counting on his class concept (i.e. animal companion, wild shape, BFC, melee and summoning)
If you set arbitrary limitations, then you're going to get a class that's arbitrarily limited. I could equally say that wizards are ten steps behind druids, because I really want to know what a wizard is capable of only counting his class concept (i.e. fireball, fireball, and more fireball). The fact that druids can do stuff beyond what you think they can is a big part of what makes them awesome.

Regarding the Wizard polymorph capabilities, I'm ok with that a Druid can stay in wild shape 24/7, but in order to be effective a Druid *needs* to do that. A Wizard, simply, doesn't. He can stay in his original form most of the time and still be continuously protected and effective. And overall, Wizards get best forms available. A Druid needs to spend feats, instead, and even if he does it, he will never achieve that big amount of gold
I'm not really sure what the issue is with being in a wild shape permanently. It costs a single feat, natural spell, and it probably costs an amount of money comparable to what a wizard spends on his book. Meanwhile, the druid doesn't *need* anything. Druids are frigging fullcasters, off of one of the best lists in the game. If a druid is always wild shape'd, that's because being wild shape'd is the best option. It's not because it's the only option. You're still tier one without it.

Incanur

2014-05-06, 08:41 PM

Note that Greenbound Summoning is actually a mistake and is supposed to be a +2 metamagic according to the person who wrote it.

I like the Elemental Companion ACF myself, though it requires a minor house rule to function well. (There's no way to replace the companion if it dies RAW.) An earth elemental companion provides amazing scouting ability and plenty of combat power early on.

3.5 druid almost build themselves, but lots of options exist. Druids can do a bit of everything: BFC, blast at long range, melee, charge, summon, diplomancy, stealth, perception, etc. The class is tier-1 for a reason.

nedz

2014-05-06, 08:59 PM

Note that Greenbound Summoning is actually a mistake and is supposed to be a +2 metamagic according to the person who wrote it.

Well, maybe the editor thought differently?

.Zero

2014-05-12, 04:08 PM

@eggynack
You're right. I didn't meant to bore you, sorry.

Anyway, in these days i made a little research on the Druid spell list and i have to say that it's beautiful, it really shines in buffing, although the lack of spells similar to Divine Power and Righteous Might may hurt, but, you know, a Druid is still a melee blood machine even without them (and can do Aspect of the Wolf + Animal Growth...).
When i talked about the "buffing" section of the Druid spell list i was not limited to Nature's Avatar or Bite of the X and the whole Heart of X line and Primal X line is astounding.

I'm also reconsidering my position regarding Druid's BFC capabilities. While Entangle, Wall of Thorns, Fire and Stone are always awsome spells, i found that Frostburn offers a lot of extreme quality spells like Frostfell and Call Avalanche, and i have to say that generally speaking, a large part of the [cold] spells are just golden.

But if i have to compare Druid list with Wizard's, well, it's evident that the arcane side is in serious advantage. It has everything.

In my opinion, the two biggest ploblem of Druids are that they just don't know how to deal with teleportation (either to effectively prevent it or to use it, but i admit that i don't remember right now if he has Dimensional Anchor on his list), and if they want to do that, they need to access to the Travel domain or to get Gatekeeper Initiate feat or to equip a Belt of the Wide Earth.
The second one is the lack of decent ways to get extra actions and breaking action economy. No Contingency-like, no Celerity-like, no Moment of Prescience-like, and his list doesn't support Craft Contingent Spell in the same manner Wizard's list do. Also, most builds don't have a feat slot to burn for Quicken Spell before reaching 18th level, especially without flaws. This puts Druids in a situation of inferiority (i need to remark that Druids *don't* get teleportations effect out of a full-of-vegetation area) when it comes to be prepared to sudden dangers.
They get that Dire Tortoise's Lighting Strike, sure, but how does this interact with the enemy caster's Celerity?

@nedz
I feel exactly that way, but in this particular case, i'd like a Druid that does druidry things, and i feel that things like DMM are not druidry things. That's an arbitrary limitation of mine, i admit it.

@Biffoniacus
Wow. Just wow. This spells opens up a lot of possibilities, even without Hathran. So let's say i cast it under an oak in the middle of a forest, thus I'm considered being alway under that tree and by extension, alway in a forestal area. Which funny things can be done in such an area? Can i assume that Woodland Stride and Trackless Step are always active? Also how does this state interact with Druid's tree-teleportation capabilities?

Off topic: i heard about a trick that lets a Chameleon cast double 9s. Is that trick the same as presented here (i mean, dipping a level of Hathran and cast Acorn of Far Travel while under a Rashemen oak)?

I hope this thread is not yet fallen in thread necromancy category ;-)

eggynack

2014-05-12, 04:38 PM

In my opinion, the two biggest ploblem of Druids are that they just don't know how to deal with teleportation (either to effectively prevent it or to use it, but i admit that i don't remember right now if he has Dimensional Anchor on his list), and if they want to do that, they need to access to the Travel domain or to get Gatekeeper Initiate feat or to equip a Belt of the Wide Earth.
Druids actually have pretty good teleportation. You get stormwalk (Storm, 122) and transport via plants at 6th, and master earth (SpC, 139) at 7th for long distance teleportation, shuffle (Shining South, 49) at 6th, unicorn heart (CM, 121) at 7th, and exalted wild shape (BoED, 42) for blink dog form for tactical teleportation, and even animate with the spirit (CV, 42) for a movanic deva (FF, 57) at 4th for planeshift. You don't really get teleportation stoppers, but those aren't nearly as important.

The second one is the lack of decent ways to get extra actions and breaking action economy. No Contingency-like, no Celerity-like, no Moment of Prescience-like, and his list doesn't support Craft Contingent Spell in the same manner Wizard's list do. Also, most builds don't have a feat slot to burn for Quicken Spell before reaching 18th level, especially without flaws. This puts Druids in a situation of inferiority (i need to remark that Druids *don't* get teleportations effect out of a full-of-vegetation area) when it comes to be prepared to sudden dangers.
They get that Dire Tortoise's Lighting Strike, sure, but how does this interact with the enemy caster's Celerity?
Action economy breaking is certainly a weak spot for the non-planar shepherd druid, but I figure that the druid attacks the action economy more directly. You have an animal companion, and there already you're running two actions, and then you spend a round summoning a giant crocodile, and the next round you have three actions, and then you toss on mass snake's swiftness or animal growth, and then you get even more and more meaningful actions. That's not even getting into the really fun stuff, like combining a belt of battle with golden desert honey to summon 2d4+2 oreads in a single turn, thus creating that many earthquakes before the opponent even has a chance to act.

Druids also pull off cleric style action economy breaking naturally, to some extent. A cleric persists divine power, or righteous might, and that pulls actions away from combat. In the same fashion, a druid uses wild shape, or extends some hours/level spells, and is thus unburdened by the need to quicken those spells at all. In some senses, though certainly not all, it could be considered an advantage. There're also a few spells, like friendly fire (EoE, 27), or vision of punishment (CV, 59) that are just naturally faster than a standard action. As for dire tortoise, the interaction with celerity doesn't seem entirely unfavorable. You need to not be flat-footed in order to use celerity, after all, and eliminating the possibility of a surprise round helps with that.

However, overall, the druid is likely behind the wizard at high levels, entirely on the basis of list. It's an issue that can be mitigated some through a contemplative dip for the spell domain, or even through just knowing the druid list really well, but it is what it is. It's a fact of life that druids will, on occasion, not be the very best class in the universe, and that's probably not the worst thing.

I feel exactly that way, but in this particular case, i'd like a Druid that does druidry things, and i feel that things like DMM are not druidry things. That's an arbitrary limitation of mine, i admit it.
That's actually fine, I think. DMM persist just doesn't do as much for druids as it does for clerics, even if you didn't have to play weird dipping games to get there. The best druid buffs just tend to be of such a high duration naturally, such that persist doesn't help all that much. I mean, it's still very good, but it's not the end all and be all of druidry. Trickery on the scale of holt warden+contemplative for full access to the spell domain is more up a druid's alley. A holt warden dip on its own is actually pretty sweet, as you can technically spontaneously convert those extra slots.

Wow. Just wow. This spells opens up a lot of possibilities, even without Hathran. So let's say i cast it under an oak in the middle of a forest, thus I'm considered being alway under that tree and by extension, alway in a forestal area. Which funny things can be done in such an area? Can i assume that Woodland Stride and Trackless Step are always active? Also how does this state interact with Druid's tree-teleportation capabilities?
It definitely does interact with the teleport effects, as that's an explicit benefit. I'm less sure on the count of the other effects, as those seem to be less dependent on where you are, and more dependent on what exactly you're doing. Being under a tree doesn't qualify as moving through undergrowth, after all. Trackless stride seems more likely to work, though not infinitely so.

I hope this thread is not yet fallen in thread necromancy category ;-)
Nah, you're within 6 days. The current limit is 45, if I'm not mistaken.

Edit: Really, the issue with druids is just 6th to 8th level spells. You get some stuff, and some of the things I've listed are from those levels, but they're just not on the same level of quality as the spells of levels below them. 5th's are basically the most amazing thing ever, and then you get marginal upgrades to those amazing spells, until you hit 9th's where storm of vengeance is comparing unfavorably to blizzard and control winds. 9th's would be included in the problem area, but shapechange is just that good.

Incanur

2014-05-13, 12:38 PM

You don't really get teleportation stoppers, but those aren't nearly as important.

Well, in a game with optimized foes, somebody in the party needs a counter to the scry-buff-teleport routine starting around level 9. I guess that's one of the reasons wizards always win optimization wars by higher levels.

eggynack

2014-05-13, 01:10 PM

Well, in a game with optimized foes, somebody in the party needs a counter to the scry-buff-teleport routine starting around level 9. I guess that's one of the reasons wizards always win optimization wars by higher levels.
Eh, not really. The issue isn't so much that teleportation stopping effects would be useless, and more that they tend to be highly inefficient, primarily owing to the radius of those effects. Also of note is the fact that master earth can bypass teleportation stoppers completely, which is nifty.

Incanur

2014-05-13, 01:48 PM

If the party's facing opposing wizards - which they probably will be in a high-op campaign - yeah really - unless you want to give your foes a surprise round plus full buffs. It's probably not a big deal in your average game, though.

Anticipate teleportation and company work okay to stop the scry-buff-teleport trick because of the sort visual range of scrying. Nondetection is also nice, and mind blank a trump card.

eggynack

2014-05-13, 01:54 PM

If the party's facing opposing wizards - which they probably will be in a high-op campaign - yeah really - unless you want to give your foes a surprise round plus full buffs.
But you can just kinda teleport to somewhere outside of a 5 ft radius around the wizards, and then attack them from there, because that's a completely reasonable place to attack from. I also don't think anticipate teleportation grants a surprise round, as the teleporters are presumably completely aware that their target is there, even before they come out of the lock. Also, as above, if we're talking about a direct druid versus wizard battle, druids have a way to bypass this.

Ivanhoe

2014-05-13, 02:33 PM

Incanur

2014-05-13, 02:39 PM

But you can just kinda teleport to somewhere outside of a 5 ft radius around the wizards, and then attack them from there, because that's a completely reasonable place to attack from.

How? It's 5ft per caster level for anticipate teleportation. With scrying you can only see 10ft around the subject.

I also don't think anticipate teleportation grants a surprise round

I never said it did, though it does give 1-3 of prep for the battle because of the delay. My point was that without countermeasures to the scry-buff-teleport trick, the party will be attacked in this fashion. Teleporting in on somebody who's not expecting it grants a surprise round by D&D 3.5 rules. (I'm unsure whether detecting the scrying sensor changes this.)

Also, as above, if we're talking about a direct druid versus wizard battle, druids have a way to bypass this.

At the high levels, though, the druid will never be able to find the wizards because of mind blank, while the druid can't gain the same immunity.

For instance, would a core version of your 8th level druid even survive to that level given that his phyisical stats (STR, DEX) are so low?

Playing such a druid at level 1-4 might not be the most fun RPGing experience, but you just cast and have your pet fight. You can BFC with spells like entangle and fog cloud, contribute damage if needed with produce flame and flaming sphere, buff with barkskin and magic fang, summon, and heal.

eggynack

2014-05-13, 02:46 PM

just noticing this thread after a while of longer absence...

eggynack, referring to a discussion we once had about how much more non-core material provides power to casters or not ... and noticing the majority of staggering druid powers mentioned in this thread (including your 8th level build) is non-core ... would you still stick to your former idea that druids do not really get much out of non-core compared to what non-casters get?
For instance, would a core version of your 8th level druid even survive to that level given that his phyisical stats (STR, DEX) are so low?
Probably yeah, on both counts. I did know about a good amount of the stuff I know now, after all, though the exact extent is somewhat dependent on how far back the discussion was. I definitely didn't have the same list for aberration wild shape, for example. Still, my point was that while druids get a massive amount of stuff, as you've noted, not-druids gain competence, and the ability to contribute, and that means more. I mean, just look at fighters, gaining the power to stun-lock, a new way to control the battlefield, and better skill use, or paladins, gaining actual magical ability. Really though, any discussion of druid build is going to mostly focus on out of core elements, because druids don't get all that much build stuff in core. Instead, they just get the massive amount of stuff that druids are natively privy to.

As for the part about survival, we're talking here about a character with a d8 for HD, constitution as one of only two stats being boosted, halfway decent armor, a host of spells that can be very defensively oriented, and above all, an animal companion that often verges on fighter equivalent. The druid might not survive, and he might even fail to survive a situation that the non-core druid would succeed at (though theoretically, any power gap at all could cause this), but if the druid's not surviving, I've gotta figure that just about nothing else is surviving either. That list of traits I just mentioned is better than nearly anything else on offer, even with some level of dexterity disparity.

Edit:
How? It's 5ft per caster level for anticipate teleportation. With scrying you can only see 10ft around the subject.
True, but if the wizards are moving around to any extent, that would solve the problem rather handily. The whole point of scry and die is that you take your time, after all.

I never said it did, though it does give 1-3 of prep for the battle because of the delay. My point was that without countermeasures to the scry-buff-teleport trick, the party will be attacked in this fashion. Teleporting in on somebody who's not expecting it grants a surprise round by D&D 3.5 rules.
I suppose, though the same issue as above exists.

At the high levels, though, the druid will never be able to find the wizards because of mind blank, while the druid can't gain the same immunity.
Mind blank is of a higher level than master earth, so there's a decent gap of time available where effectiveness can be obtained. Simultaneously, if the wizard isn't always completely alone, scrying can potentially be effective here. As for druids getting the immunity, I'm not really aware of a non-contemplative method as of yet, so I suppose that's just a deficit in ability that needs to likely be made up through item use.

Ivanhoe

2014-05-13, 02:49 PM

OK eggynack, thanks for your fast reply!

Incanur

2014-05-13, 03:09 PM

True, but if the wizards are moving around to any extent, that would solve the problem rather handily. The whole point of scry and die is that you take your time, after all.

That's certainly a possibility, but it involves carefully judging distances through the sensor.

I suppose, though the same issue as above exists.

Maybe parties in high-op campaigns travel around in lead-lined wagons. :smallwink:

Endarire

2014-05-13, 03:30 PM

Incanur:
I thought you wrote "lead-winged dragons". If so, yes!

Incanur

2014-05-13, 03:48 PM

Incanur:
I thought you wrote "lead-winged dragons". If so, yes!

Unfortunately, I don't think that'd stop scrying. :smallfrown:

Vogonjeltz

2014-05-13, 04:14 PM

Exalted companion with VoP is always nice.

Feats aren't customizable on animal companions.

Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind, but make the following changes.

The exalted companion has all the normal abilities of a typical creature of its kind

No enumerated exalted creature and no animal listed gets VoP as a bonus feat. Ipso facto, no animal companion has VoP, however nice it might be conceptually if they did.

eggynack

2014-05-13, 04:19 PM

Feats aren't customizable on animal companions.

No enumerated exalted creature and no animal listed gets VoP as a bonus feat. Ipso facto, no animal companion has VoP, however nice it might be conceptually if they did.
Future feats are absolutely customizable, and there's nothing stopping you from asking the animal companion to retrain past ones. If running this with natural bond, you might even get the retraining at the same time as you get the animal companion, as there's an immediate HD boost.

nedz

2014-05-13, 05:20 PM

eggynack

2014-05-13, 05:33 PM

Except that it's the animal which gets to choose the future feats — which is a decision made by the DM. Now a permissive DM may allow you to choose the feat, but it's not a given.
Perhaps, but to some other extent, it's a decision made by the animal companion itself. This normally isn't hyper-relevant, as animal companions are unintelligent, but here you can easily collaborate with the companion about optimal/character fitting feat choices. As long as this celestial companion isn't somehow opposed to the idea of forgoing worldly possessions, it should work out fine.

WhamBamSam

2014-05-14, 12:53 AM

Future feats are absolutely customizable, and there's nothing stopping you from asking the animal companion to retrain past ones. If running this with natural bond, you might even get the retraining at the same time as you get the animal companion, as there's an immediate HD boost.Pretty much. You can direct the companion toward better choices for the feats gained through its bonus HD (or by retraining if you're into that sort of thing) just by talking to it, even if your DM exerts a lot of control over it. Also, Psychic Reformation exists.

Oh and since Metamagic shenanigans were brought up as a thing Druids are a bit deficient in earlier in the thread, this seems a good place to bring up a thing I found while reading up on stuff in preparation for an update to the Dragon Handbook.

Free Metamagic (Su): Metamagic comes naturally to tome dragons. Applying a metamagic feat to a spell takes no extra time for a tome dragon (rather than increasing casting time to a full-round action or adding another full-round action as is normal for sorcerers). In addition, tome dragons can subtract an amount based on their age category from the increase in spell level caused by using metamagic feats. The number listed is the total reduction in extra spell levels, not the reduction for each feat applied (so a tome dragon with two levels of free metamagic would still add three levels to the cost of an empowered maximized spell). This bonus can be applied to one spell per round (additional spells cast in a single round are unaffected).

Clearly they didn't really expect the ability to interact with prepared casting, but there doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from just Dragon Wild Shaping into a Tome Dragon when you prepare your spells and getting a free point of metamagic on as many spells as you want (just one though, Tome Dragons get their second point of free metamagic at the same age category they become large). It's not entirely clear to me how the last line interacts with prepared casting by RAW, and it's a far cry from the Incanatrix or DMM, but it's certainly a thing, assuming Dragon Magazine is allowed.

.Zero

2014-05-28, 05:11 PM

eggynack

2014-05-28, 05:29 PM

@Eggynack
I don't understand why you are suggesting Holt Warden. Isn't just a one level dip in Contemplative sufficient to fully access to the Spell domain? Why should i need a level in Holt Warden? And also, why is Spell domain so useful? Ok, it grants me the access to Greater Anyspell, but are up-to-5th-level-arcane-spells so useful to Druids? I mean, if i would choose some domains i will certainly choose among Travel, Time and Trickery, so why Spell?

Not to mention that 14 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) is a hard prerequisite for a Druid.
It's actually partially because of knowledge (religion) that holt warden is important. It doesn't really have any prerequisites, and it gets religion on its list. More importantly, holt warden grants an actual domain, with actual bonus spells, and you can slot spells granted by contemplative into those slots, for such is the way domain spells work. Getting that many spell slots, all doing generally cool things (if they're not, then there's actually nothing stopping you from spontaneous conversion, as the thing stopping you from doing that with a cleric isn't there) is pretty neat.

As for the spell domain, there's just a general list of stuff that wizards can do, which druids aren't all that great at. I've been working pretty hard at shrinking that list, but it's always there. So, the spell domain grants you access to everything from celerity, to actual teleport, to contact other plane, to just about any illusion or enchantment. Hell, you even get a bunch of minionmancy options, like animate dead. I'm not all that sure how to pull off planar binding in this context (maybe with limited wish running the normal version, and greater anyspell getting the circle), but you're definitely closer. Your access here is limited, but it's much better than it would be otherwise, even with one of the other domains. I mean, you should know pretty well that wizards get a lot of stuff that druids don't, as that's the essence of what you've been arguing here.

Edit: Also, incidentally, that aberration wild shape for nilshai form thing deals with that action economy manipulation issue you mentioned pretty well, I think. Not natively, sure, but it's pulling something off in a way that the wizard can't. I don't even know that wizards get action economy manipulation on that scale, that early in the game, though they can probably do better with the extra actions they do get.

.Zero

2014-05-29, 08:52 PM

More importantly, holt warden grants an actual domain, with actual bonus spells, and you can slot spells granted by contemplative into those slots, for such is the way domain spells work. Getting that many spell slots, all doing generally cool things (if they're not, then there's actually nothing stopping you from spontaneous conversion, as the thing stopping you from doing that with a cleric isn't there) is pretty neat.

Wow, it seems I'm lacking some game basics here. So, what is the thing that grants you domain spell slots? Why does Contemplative not grant you those slots?

As for the spell domain, there's just a general list of stuff that wizards can do, which druids aren't all that great at. I've been working pretty hard at shrinking that list, but it's always there. So, the spell domain grants you access to everything from celerity, to actual teleport, to contact other plane, to just about any illusion or enchantment. Hell, you even get a bunch of minionmancy options, like animate dead. I'm not all that sure how to pull off planar binding in this context (maybe with limited wish running the normal version, and greater anyspell getting the circle), but you're definitely closer. Your access here is limited, but it's much better than it would be otherwise, even with one of the other domains. I mean, you should know pretty well that wizards get a lot of stuff that druids don't, as that's the essence of what you've been arguing here.

Sure, but another major point of mine is that i don't want to transform a Druid into a Wizard. If i would find myself doing so, i would do better playing a Wizard instead.

Ironically, i believe the main issue with wizard's spells is just with those above 5th level (as you said, Druid's spell list tends to fall off the power level curve past that level, compared to Wizard's). You proved me that Druid's spell list is awesome and can cover a very large amount of stuff, so things like BFC, buff and direct damage don't necessitate the support of Wizard's spell list. The ability to spontaneously convert prepared spell slots in SNA, access to Conjure Ice Beast and feats like Greenbound and Rashemi Elemental gives to Druids the ability be good summoners, but a summoning-focused Wizard still do better, 'cause he has Augment Summoning as a bonus feat (UA, Summoner variant) and, overall, access to the Planar Binding line and Gate (I know Shifter's substitution levels are wonderful for summoning, but that's just race-specific).
And the effect of the spell Teleport can be replicated in a lot of ways you mentioned above.

What they really need is teleportation stoppers, a much free way of teleporting (those spells you listed have restrictions), breaking action economy and a Wizard-like way to be protected and deal with enemies at the same time.

For all that teleportation stuff, we have Gatekeeper Initiate (wich also offers Mind Blank) and Travel domain, which coupled, are flavorful and powerful.
For action economy, we have Spell domain with Anyspell for Celerity, or the Nilshai form (i read your thread about it, good catch boy!). For the first one we need to spend class levels, resulting in abandoning at least two levels of Wild Shape and two levels of Animal Companion, for the second one, we need to spend two feats. I cannot say wich is better, but i think i prefer that Dire Tortoise's Lighting Strike (feels more druidry to me XD).
For the last one problem, i don't know what to do. What i mean is that a Wizard, purely by his list, could do Genesis, Clone, Heart of Stone, sitting in his demiplane and eternally scrying the outer plains while his summons, Ice Assassin, Simulacrum, undead slaves and dominated foes do the dirty job for him, never putting himself in a direct danger. And this could be done in a smaller scale before level 17.
Maybe your wider knowledge might enlight me.

So, about Spell domain. Undoubtedly, Limited Wish is *great* for Druids (just like for anyone), but i don't feel so good on Anyspell. That arcane spell can be stored solely on that single 6th level domain spell slot, regardless of the spell's actual level, meaning that you get to cast only one arcane spell each day. So, do a Druid get much from a single arcane spell a day considering the effort he made to get that spell? Maybe. Or maybe not. At this point i believe is all a matter of personal attitude.

What i found brilliant in Biffoniacus' build i linked in my OP was that he chose to compleately waste a caster level for a single level of Cloisterd Cleric. This granted him Knowledge (swapped for K. Devotion), Planning (another fantastic domain, which is powerful&flavourful) and Undeath (not a big fan of that, mostly for my bad feeling about DMM on Druids), plus a single level dip in Seeker of the Misty Island for Travel domain. This is more in line with my playstyle, rather than dipping like crazy to give Druids some Wizard's artillery (this is not a critique on you, granted).

eggynack

2014-05-29, 09:39 PM

Wow, it seems I'm lacking some game basics here. So, what is the thing that grants you domain spell slots? Why does Contemplative not grant you those slots?
Contemplative derives its extra domain rules from page 20 of complete divine, which specifies that you just toss the domain spells in existing slots. The holt warden's plant affinity ability, by contrast, has its own individual rule set that grants a full set of slots.

Sure, but another major point of mine is that i don't want to transform a Druid into a Wizard. If i would find myself doing so, i would do better playing a Wizard instead.
I suppose, though that whole majig is pretty subjective. The spell domain is definitely pushing into wizard territory, but at the very least, you're getting there in a pretty druidish manner.

Ironically, i believe the main issue with wizard's spells is just with those above 5th level (as you said, Druid's spell list tends to fall off the power level curve past that level, compared to Wizard's).
Well, to be fair to the spell domain, it's not like it falls apart after greater anyspell. The next three spells, limited wish, AMF, and disjunction, all provide at least some interesting utility, especially limited wish. Still, it's certainly a lapse in potential in general.

You proved me that Druid's spell list is awesome and can cover a very large amount of stuff, so things like BFC, buff and direct damage don't necessitate the support of Wizard's spell list. The ability to spontaneously convert prepared spell slots in SNA, access to Conjure Ice Beast and feats like Greenbound and Rashemi Elemental gives to Druids the ability be good summoners, but a summoning-focused Wizard still do better, 'cause he has Augment Summoning as a bonus feat (UA, Summoner variant) and, overall, access to the Planar Binding line and Gate (I know Shifter's substitution levels are wonderful for summoning, but that's just race-specific).
And the effect of the spell Teleport can be replicated in a lot of ways you mentioned above.
I think you're overrating augment some, as even when you spend a feat on it, greenbound is still probably better. Besides, druids can also gain reasonably free access through half-orc substitution levels, which are sweet. The long term minionmancy options on a druid are admittedly lacking, but I think there's some headway being made along those lines, with stuff like fey ring, animate with the spirit, and various zombie-like things. I wouldn't say that druid summoning is better or worse. It's just different, with wizards mostly focusing on the SLA and utility end, and druids focusing more on beat stickery. The SNA list is just better at hitting things over the head, with many options popping up at an earlier level, and the ring of the beast compounding that even more. Also, frigging oread summoning for spontaneous earthquakes two spell levels early. Damn.

For all that teleportation stuff, we have Gatekeeper Initiate (wich also offers Mind Blank) and Travel domain, which coupled, are flavorful and powerful.
Travel does have its moments, but it feels like most of it is somewhat redundant. You're mostly just gaining three or four spells, which are good, but probably worse than it could be. Gatekeeper initiate is pretty nifty though, especially because you gain return to nature, which is a spell I can't even begin to comprehend. I can definitely see tossing it into a reasonably empty feat slot, though that's obviously a somewhat build dependent thing. .

For action economy, we have Spell domain with Anyspell for Celerity, or the Nilshai form (i read your thread about it, good catch boy!). For the first one we need to spend class levels, resulting in abandoning at least two levels of Wild Shape and two levels of Animal Companion, for the second one, we need to spend two feats. I cannot say wich is better, but i think i prefer that Dire Tortoise's Lighting Strike (feels more druidry to me XD).
The problem with dire tortoise is that it comes online too late, maybe running at level eleven if you pick up a wild shape amulet. As for feat expenditure for aberration forms, I don't think it's an issue. Nilshai shenanigans are the top of that particular curve, but there's a lot of other stuff you could do.

For the last one problem, i don't know what to do. What i mean is that a Wizard, purely by his list, could do Genesis, Clone, Heart of Stone, sitting in his demiplane and eternally scrying the outer plains while his summons, Ice Assassin, Simulacrum, undead slaves and dominated foes do the dirty job for him, never putting himself in a direct danger. And this could be done in a smaller scale before level 17.
Well, at 17 it's all at least somewhat irrelevant. Shapechange makes everything into the singularity, granting infinite wishes, and just about anything else you could want. Before that,, I don't think there's that much, though you can use aberration wild shape for dharculus form (PlH, 112), allowing you to attack people from the ethereal plane, or kython form (BoVD, 178), allowing you to go incorporeal or back as a free action, once a round (though this one's a bit more ambiguous). Alternatively, there's always the weird ghost plan, where you cast aspect of the wolf, and then cast ghost companion on yourself, possibly preceded by a cocoon, thus allowing you to be a ghost for about a week.

So, about Spell domain. Undoubtedly, Limited Wish is *great* for Druids (just like for anyone), but i don't feel so good on Anyspell. That arcane spell can be stored solely on that single 6th level domain spell slot, regardless of the spell's actual level, meaning that you get to cast only one arcane spell each day. So, do a Druid get much from a single arcane spell a day considering the effort he made to get that spell? Maybe. Or maybe not. At this point i believe is all a matter of personal attitude.
You can do some pretty nifty stuff with it, though it's obviously somewhat limited. I figure that it's at its best when you're using it for out of combat stuff, thus making the slot expenditure irrelevant.

HunterOfJello

2014-05-29, 09:50 PM

Dreamsight Shifter Cloistered Cleric 8/Moonspeaker 13 with Animal Domain and the Spontaneous Summoning feat. Also grab Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM(Persist), and Wild Cohort.

Toss on the Armor, Ring, and Mantle of the Beast for assorted awesome benefits and then a Wild Shape Amulet from Magic of Faerun.

You can now cast divine spells, wild shape as a level 14 druid, spontaneous summon nature's ally, and have a combat pet. That's what you wanted right?

note:
If you want further wild shape shenanigans then grab the Divine Minion online template and then take extra wild shape based feats at lower levels than you normally would.

Psyren

2014-05-30, 09:09 AM

Haven't seen this mentioned yet but Druid 10/Skypledged 10 is also a useful build. You nerf your wildshape, sure, but you can still wild shape into a max-level Air Elemental, and you also get full casting and access to the entire cleric list, getting you things like Holy Word, Resurrection, Restoration, Gate and Miracle.

Darrin

2014-05-30, 02:23 PM

Sublime Hierophant "Dual 9s":

Druid 3/Bard 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 3/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant +7/Mystic Theurge +2
Feats: Extend Spell (1st), Versatile Spellcaster* (3rd), Natural Bond (6th), Natural Spell (9th), etc.
* = Replace with Sanctum Spell, Improved Krau Sigil, or Precocious Apprentice according to taste/lactose tolerance.

Fochluchan Chord "Dual 9s":

Druid 3/Bard 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 3/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9
Feats: Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots (1st), Versatile Spellcaster (3rd), Open Least Chakra: Feet (6th), Natural Spell (9th), etc.

Some other PrC ideas:

Druid -> Holt Warden -> Contemplative looks promising, but I'm not sure where the best cut-offs are. Hold Warden 8-10 looks kinda boring, and Contemplative 6 is good for a second domain, so maybe Druid 7/Hold Warden 7/Contemplative 6.

Druid 6/Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/Contemplative 10 also might be decent.

I've been fiddling around with a Druid/Alienist build, but getting the Summoner domain into it at a decent level is proving to be tricky. Druid 5/Alienist 3/Divine Seeker 4/Alienist +7/Something +1 seems to work. Druid 6/Divine Agent 1/Alienist 10/Something +3 also works, but loses a caster level.

eggynack

2014-05-30, 02:33 PM

Druid -> Holt Warden -> Contemplative looks promising, but I'm not sure where the best cut-offs are. Hold Warden 8-10 looks kinda boring, and Contemplative 6 is good for a second domain, so maybe Druid 7/Hold Warden 7/Contemplative 6.

Druid 6/Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/Contemplative 10 also might be decent.

I tend to think that the best cutoffs are 1's on everything. The way I figure it, ditching a level or two of animal companion/wild shape advancement won't destroy those areas of the build, but once you're sacrificing as much as you're indicating, it's a problematic thing. I mean, take seeker as a quick example. One level gets you the travel domain, which is great, but spending four levels on an ability that's relatively irrelevant on an oft flying druid, or a caster level on the magic domain, just seems like the wrong move. Prestiging on a druid is tricky business.

sleepyphoenixx

2014-05-30, 03:24 PM

eggynack

2014-05-30, 03:38 PM

You can dip up to two levels without losing any animal companion HD on a 20 level build.
If you want to dip more than that getting the Urban Companion ACF may be a good idea since it's a lot less reliant on druid level.
If you take the Shifter Beast Spirit ACF you can lose up to 5 levels and still get standard action summons and the +6 ability boost.

You can also lose 4 levels of Wild Shape and either use a Wild Shape Amulet to make them up or just make do with forms up to 16HD (which isn't too bad, most staples are there).
It's not like you need 20HD forms to make Wild Shape useful. Most useful forms have less HD than that so you could easily dip more depending on what you're willing to give up and if you can get your hands on the amulet.

The only class feature where you really don't want to lose progress is spellcasting.
There's something to be said for that perspective, but looking at everything through the lens of an ultimate 20th level character, and in a larger sense, not looking through these things on a level by level basis, doesn't seem all that logical to me. It's a tricky thing, I think. Getting wild shape above 16 HD/huge is pretty meaningless, as you've indicated, but hitting that point is appropriately huge, so you ideally want to get there as early as possible. The amulet is a viable solution to some extent, but it's expensive as hell, which can be occasionally problematic.

It's also notable that there are some lines formed of HD, rather than size/type, especially when you take into account form adding feats. Dragon wild shape, for example, is basically just a continuous growth in added forms from the time you take it onward, owing to the unique way that dragons work. I think there's a lot of stuff that goes into this decision, but it might all add together in a simple way. If you're ditching advancement, then make sure that what you're getting is worth it, because it often isn't. It is more often than some give it credit for, and you can take a hit without serious issue, but when you're losing over 10 levels of advancement to prestige classes that don't do all that much, it just seems like a mistake.

gorfnab

2014-05-30, 04:06 PM

The Salad Bar Monk is a funny Druid build: Warforged Monk 2/ Druid 3/ Landforged Walker 5/ Sacred Fist 10 - basically Treant Kung-fu will 9th level spells (text trumping table on Sacred Fist). If you just want Wildshape, Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 10/ Warshaper 5 is decent.

eggynack

2014-05-30, 04:17 PM

If you just want Wildshape, Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 10/ Warshaper 5 is decent.
Running that with druid instead generally leads to a more powerful build, if one that feels worse. Those spells just do more than what ranger offers, even if you're only relying on long term buffs, such that you don't need to run natural spell. I mean, just consider primal instinct, primal hunter, heart of water, and heart of air. Right there, you've got a +5 to initiative, survival, climb, jump, and swim, along with a +10 to fly speed, reasonably strong underwater travel capabilities, swift access to FoM and feather fall, uncanny dodge, and light fortification.

It's a lot of stuff, especially when you toss a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell, and it's just a start. There's also the list of out of combat utility stuff, of which you get a decent quantity, and fast spells, if you do choose the natural spell path. Mystic ranger narrows the gap a lot, but you're still talking about a spell level of difference, and that might still be enough to push druid over the top.

sleepyphoenixx

2014-05-30, 08:16 PM

There's something to be said for that perspective, but looking at everything through the lens of an ultimate 20th level character, and in a larger sense, not looking through these things on a level by level basis, doesn't seem all that logical to me. It's a tricky thing, I think. Getting wild shape above 16 HD/huge is pretty meaningless, as you've indicated, but hitting that point is appropriately huge, so you ideally want to get there as early as possible. The amulet is a viable solution to some extent, but it's expensive as hell, which can be occasionally problematic.

It depends on the campaign and preferred playstyle of course. Depending on the level you start at and what you expect to reach at the end of the campaign it may be more viable to get more power now instead of hypothetically superior WS forms that you may never reach. The point is mostly moot however since there aren't really any PrC that are worth taking beyond a dip, except Planar Shepherd.

The Holt Warden 1/Contemplative 1 dip is almost always worth it imo if your campaign gets high enough, even if it delays WS. Holt Warden 2 may be worth it if your DM allows it to qualify for DMM, but that's where it stops.

Warshaper isn't really an option imo since you lose out on all three of WS, AC and spellcasting when you can get most of the benefits from spells easily enough.
MoMF has the same problem, especially since you can get most of the same functionality with Enhance Wild Shape and the various form adding feats.

Moonspeaker would be worth it if taking it didn't mean you'd have to forgo the Beast Spirit ACFs Rapid Summoning ability. That one is especially annoying since the PrC is so uniquely suited to druid summoners.

There's also Lion of Talisid but i feel that it doesn't really add anything substantial to justify the feat and rp costs.