Making a Blind Character [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Red Fel

2014-05-01, 02:36 PM

Grimlock...

The problem with making a blind character is...well...you are blind.

This. This is the major downside. I love the flavor (and I really love the character Zatoichi, great franchise) but I get annoyed when my players want that kind of flavor for free.

If a player comes to me and says he wants to play a character who lost his legs in a major battle, I think that's awesome and exciting. I tell him I want to work with him to get the most out of that flavor. Maybe he received honors for his military service, maybe there are people whose lives he saved, bunch of cool things. Then this player tells me he wants something to completely offset the loss, such as no-fail golem legs or (Ex) flight. I tell him, no, not going to happen without some major concessions on your part.

You can have the flavor, and you can work on compensating. But don't expect complete replacement here. You will probably be illiterate, for example - most vision replacements don't give you the ability to read a flat surface. And don't expect your compensation to be free, either. Minor flavor, like hair color, is something anyone can take. But flavor that impacts gameplay is an informed decision, one that comes with a cost. Don't expect to have it free of charge, as if nothing's changed.

Daredevil is a blind man with the superpower of sight. Daredevil was played by Ben Affleck. Don't be Ben Affleck.
Okay. All that aside, let's resume.

There are ways, as others have mentioned, to get supplemental sight. The Diamond Mind stance Hearing the Air is also a good source of Blindsense, plus it grants a bonus on Listen checks (and fits a blind samurai nicely). Alternatively, take the Psion Telepath ACF to gain Telepathy, followed by the Mindsight feat, which is not hindered by Darkstalker. Another option, be a Necropolitan (which removes your Con score) and take Lifesense.

Thorvaldr

2014-05-01, 02:42 PM

I had assumed that you were more hesitant in throwing away feats for it, hence why I thought of the item. Yes, there is a feat which negates it, but that would be a very specific build to get around your blindsight. Also: That's when your listen checks kick in. So yes, you'll have a 50% miss chance against characters with Darkstalker (assuming you can hear them)... but at least you have a chance! :smallbiggrin:

And if you're still worried about that miss chance, you can pack some splash weapons?

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 02:43 PM

This. This is the major downside. I love the flavor (and I really love the character Zatoichi, great franchise) but I get annoyed when my players want that kind of flavor for free.

If a player comes to me and says he wants to play a character who lost his legs in a major battle, I think that's awesome and exciting. I tell him I want to work with him to get the most out of that flavor. Maybe he received honors for his military service, maybe there are people whose lives he saved, bunch of cool things. Then this player tells me he wants something to completely offset the loss, such as no-fail golem legs or (Ex) flight. I tell him, no, not going to happen without some major concessions on your part.

You can have the flavor, and you can work on compensating. But don't expect complete replacement here. You will probably be illiterate, for example - most vision replacements don't give you the ability to read a flat surface. And don't expect your compensation to be free, either. Minor flavor, like hair color, is something anyone can take. But flavor that impacts gameplay is an informed decision, one that comes with a cost. Don't expect to have it free of charge, as if nothing's changed.

Daredevil is a blind man with the superpower of sight. Daredevil was played by Ben Affleck. Don't be Ben Affleck.
Okay. All that aside, let's resume.

There are ways, as others have mentioned, to get supplemental sight. The Diamond Mind stance Hearing the Air is also a good source of Blindsense, plus it grants a bonus on Listen checks (and fits a blind samurai nicely). Alternatively, take the Psion Telepath ACF to gain Telepathy, followed by the Mindsight feat, which is not hindered by Darkstalker. Another option, be a Necropolitan (which removes your Con score) and take Lifesense.

I do agree with this, but I think the important thing is that I want to play the character. The character is able to interact with people as though he had perfect sight, which includes slicing things he tosses into the air or making precise strikes. I said that I don't mind the other penalties of blindness like the -4 to Search (makes sense if you have to tap a stick and scrounge around) and half-speed, and I would want to keep those in the character. But to play Zatoichi, that 50% miss chance is just unacceptable. He does not miss half of his strikes. So I'd need to negate specifically that aspect of it somehow.

Hearing the Air is flavorful, but requires too much investment for a pretty meager payoff. Blindsense still doesn't remove that total concealment, so Hearing the Air does nothing that a super high Listen check doesn't. Mindsight doesn't at all fit the feel of the character. Neither does being Undead, and I would imagine that Lifesense might still rely on regular sight anyway (the life-light works like regular light...which you can't see.)

weckar

2014-05-01, 02:47 PM

Tremorsense? it's restricted to both touching the ground, but...

NoACWarrior

2014-05-01, 02:51 PM

OK, you could take the two mage slayer feats and have blindness / deafness cast on you so you have some type of magical blindness. Pierce Magical Concealment lets you ignore concealment from magical effects, so the blindness / deafness should be nullified (in terms of concealment).

You will still need some type of location ability such as tremorsense, earth sense, track, or blindsense to first pinpoint the enemy.

infomatic

2014-05-01, 02:56 PM

But to play Zatoichi, that 50% miss chance is just unacceptable. He does not miss half of his strikes. So I'd need to negate specifically that aspect of it somehow…

But that's not just what you want, because you've rejected the obvious suggestion of getting blindsight because you also want to defeat darkstalker. You want a character that sees better than a sighted person in combat.

Blindsight, by the rules, isn't sight. It's hearing/scent/magic that replicates most of what sight does in combat. You should take it. (For the record, I've played a Psychic Grimlock as a blind warrior-type. It was great, though I needed to have a seeing-eye companion to help with visual stuff.)

13ones

2014-05-01, 02:57 PM

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses

There is a curse called clouded vision.

Clouded Vision

Source: Advanced Player's Guide

Your eyes are obscured, making it difficult for you to see.

Effect

You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision.

At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet.

At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet.

At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 03:04 PM

But that's not just what you want, because you've rejected the obvious suggestion of getting blindsight because you also want to defeat darkstalker. You want a character that sees better than a sighted person in combat.

Blindsight, by the rules, isn't sight. It's hearing/scent/magic that replicates most of what sight does in combat. You should take it. (For the record, I've played a Psychic Grimlock as a blind warrior-type. It was great, though I needed to have a seeing-eye companion to help with visual stuff.)

Well...no, a sighted character in broad daylight fighting a character with Darkstalker would not have any miss chance. A sighted character in pitch blackness fighting a character with Darkstalker would have a 50% miss chance. I want a blind character who can fight as well as a sighted character in the day (as Zatoichi does) and better than a sighted character denied their sight (as Zatoichi does).

See, all these suggestions of "take Blindsight" is exactly what Red Fel was arguing against, because doing that just completely invalidates the drawback of being blind. It is seeing without sight, and that defeats the purpose. In the films Zatoichi's Listen check is truly extraordinary (c'mon, hearing how dice fall?) and beyond natural human capability, which in all but very specific (usually setting-based) circumstances lets him operate as well or indeed better than someone with regular sight. The difficult thing is that in the films, Darkstalker isn't a thing. It's just Move Silently versus Listen. So that never comes up. To my knowledge there was never an instance of any foe, no matter how stealthy, who was like leaping around Zatoichi while he swung and missed all the time.

So I guess to put my question simply, how can I use Listen to replace Spot? How can I pinpoint a foe with a Listen check so precisely as to deny them concealment?

A.A.King

2014-05-01, 03:07 PM

I believe Infomatic is right on this. The feel you get from most blind characters who can still fight perfect is best replicated by getting some kind of Blindsight (probably the feat). It's not some kind of magic, it's just acute hearing. I'm pretty sure there is no other way to get rid of the 50% concealment that fits better with the image.

I've asked a similar question here before, and so have others, and the answers are always the same. "Blindfold of True Darkness", "Blind-sight" or Area Attacks are the only ways to get rid of the 50% miss chance.

EDIT: In a reply to your comment which definetly wasn't there when I started typing... I'm pretty sure there is no offical way to do that with just a Listen.

infomatic

2014-05-01, 03:12 PM

How can I pinpoint a foe with a Listen check so precisely as to deny them concealment

You use blindsight, because that's what it is, and does. Except you don't need a check b/c your hearing is so good.

And as somebody who has used a PC with all-the-time blindsight, let me say instead that it is in NO way equal to actual vision in a real campaign. It does not invalidate all downsides. Your world ends at 40 feet. Inside that, you're great. But against archers, or chargers, or flyers, or sign language, or big warning signs saying "Don't go in — Dead Inside" … you're hosed.

NoACWarrior

2014-05-01, 03:17 PM

How can I pinpoint a foe with a Listen check so precisely as to deny them concealment?

Without bindsight, there is no one single ability which lets you pinpoint and NOT get concealment. Which is why I suggested using mage slayer -> pierce magical protection + blindness + blind/tremor/track.

Juntao112

2014-05-01, 03:20 PM

Synesthete (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm)

The Grue

2014-05-01, 03:28 PM

Well...no, a sighted character in broad daylight fighting a character with Darkstalker would not have any miss chance. A sighted character in pitch blackness fighting a character with Darkstalker would have a 50% miss chance. I want a blind character who can fight as well as a sighted character in the day (as Zatoichi does) and better than a sighted character denied their sight (as Zatoichi does).

Against any opponent that doesn't have Darkstalker, Blindsight gives you that. Against an opponent that does, well, tough; that opponent has a feat designed specifically to counter Blindsight. That is one of the drawbacks of Blindsight.

I'm not familiar with the character in question, but how can you be so sure that Zatoichi isn't affected by the Darkstalker feat? Does that feat exist in the work you're referencing?

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 03:45 PM

Against any opponent that doesn't have Darkstalker, Blindsight gives you that. Against an opponent that does, well, tough; that opponent has a feat designed specifically to counter Blindsight. That is one of the drawbacks of Blindsight.

I'm not familiar with the character in question, but how can you be so sure that Zatoichi isn't affected by the Darkstalker feat? Does that feat exist in the work you're referencing?

Zatoichi is a character from Japanese cinema, the protagonist of a series of 26 movies and a 100-episode TV show, all of which spans through the 60s-70s, or thereabouts. The films are set in medieval Japan, and the character is (unlike the samurai who usually dominate the genre) very low-class, a blind masseur which is one of the lowest possible positions in Japanese society. However, he is a master swordsman who relies on hearing and proprioception to defeat his foes and has a charming, self-depreciating wisdom that makes him a likable protagonist despite a checkered past. There was a remake movie made in 2003.

So I say there's no Darkstalker because it's not D&D-related at all. He's been shown to even anticipate ninjas and the like, who would be the most likely candidates for having Darkstalker-esque stealth.

weckar

2014-05-01, 03:47 PM

the character is (unlike the samurai who usually dominate the genre) very low-class, a blind masseur which is one of the lowest possible positions in Japanese society.
Wouldn't that make him a ninja instead of a samurai? Culturally speaking?

Pesimismrocks

2014-05-01, 03:47 PM

Blindsight pretty much represents Daredevil among others. It is what immense hearing will give you, the best representation of super senses.. Earthsense is identical to toph, which is probably not what you want. Darkstalker however is a feat specifically designed to defeat you. Overcoming it is a bit silly in my opinion. It would probably only come up once or twice anyway and would be an interesting challenge. Also I would like to point out is that you say you want flavour that doesn't hurt you so you need to defeat darkstalker, but with blindsense you can defeat a normal hider, giving you better senses and characters with normal hide are just as affected by dark sight. Your only way around it will be mindsight. Mindbender is a good dip, or possibly psion 5. However that means your giving up a portion of your character build and fluff. But what do you expect. A character who has trained for years to move in a way that he cannot be detected by super human senses, and yet you want to detect him usin those same superhuman senses. Fluff wise magical senses are pretty much the only answer.

Having supersenses does negate the disadvanategs of blind. That's the point of having supersenses.

Edit: But Ninja's don't have darkstalker. They would have no reason for this kind of training where senses like this are unique. If he can sense them, they're using regular hiding skills. Just because ts optimal for a d&d build doesnt mean that other genre characters have it.

The Grue

2014-05-01, 04:04 PM

Zatoichi is a character from Japanese cinema, the protagonist of a series of 26 movies and a 100-episode TV show, all of which spans through the 60s-70s, or thereabouts. The films are set in medieval Japan, and the character is (unlike the samurai who usually dominate the genre) very low-class, a blind masseur which is one of the lowest possible positions in Japanese society. However, he is a master swordsman who relies on hearing and proprioception to defeat his foes and has a charming, self-depreciating wisdom that makes him a likable protagonist despite a checkered past. There was a remake movie made in 2003.

So I say there's no Darkstalker because it's not D&D-related at all. He's been shown to even anticipate ninjas and the like, who would be the most likely candidates for having Darkstalker-esque stealth.

So maybe he just has very high ranks in Spot or Listen?

When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can fl ank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.

Darkstalker doesn't automatically defeat Blindsight. It just puts a Blindsighted creature on the same footing as a creature with normal sight.

A common mistake people make when they point to an existing fictional character and say "I wanna be like that guy!" is to mistake high competence for automatic success. Are you perhaps making that mistake here?

weckar

2014-05-01, 04:07 PM

Wait. "whichever DC is higher"? So these abilities would put you at a disadvantage vs a darkstalker even if you had normal sight?

Kuulvheysoon

2014-05-01, 04:09 PM

If you don't want Blindsight/Mindsight, I'll join those recommending Hearing the Air (ToB stance).

If you don't mind me asking, why the 8 levels of Factotum? If you replaced those with 8 levels of say, Warblade, then Hearing the Air would take no additional investment (provided that you time the levels and your IL correctly) and give access to both Iron Heart and Diamond Mind, two disciplines that just scream samurai to me. As a bonus, Warblade is also (kinda) Intelligence-focused with 4+Int skills/level. I'm sure that your DM would give you Iaijutsu Focus as a Skill if you talked about with your build with him (Alternatively, do someting like Factotum 1/Warblade 8/Exemplar 1/Iaijutsu Master 10, making sure to grab Able Learner).

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 04:46 PM

So maybe he just has very high ranks in Spot or Listen?

Darkstalker doesn't automatically defeat Blindsight. It just puts a Blindsighted creature on the same footing as a creature with normal sight.

A common mistake people make when they point to an existing fictional character and say "I wanna be like that guy!" is to mistake high competence for automatic success. Are you perhaps making that mistake here?

I could be, but there's a difference between wanting a character which always hits and wanting a character which doesn't miss 50% of the time against any character which has put even a modicum of training into stealth. Even a 1st level Rogue can have Darkstalker, and probably any 10th level Rogue would. To fight someone so much weaker and miss every other attack? That just doesn't suit the level of competence that this character has.

If you don't want Blindsight/Mindsight, I'll join those recommending Hearing the Air (ToB stance).

If you don't mind me asking, why the 8 levels of Factotum? If you replaced those with 8 levels of say, Warblade, then Hearing the Air would take no additional investment (provided that you time the levels and your IL correctly) and give access to both Iron Heart and Diamond Mind, two disciplines that just scream samurai to me. As a bonus, Warblade is also (kinda) Intelligence-focused with 4+Int skills/level. I'm sure that your DM would give you Iaijutsu Focus as a Skill if you talked about with your build with him (Alternatively, do someting like Factotum 1/Warblade 8/Exemplar 1/Iaijutsu Master 10, making sure to grab Able Learner).

I like the Factotum because it gives good access to any skill I want like Iaijutsu Focus and Listen together with no finagling, but also because Cunning Surge synchronizes really well with the Iaijutsu Master's One Strike Two Cuts. Also too many of my build ideas use ToB, and I've gotten a little tired of it because I always want better maneuvers, and then I start carving off flavorful classes or choices to get a higher IL.

The Grue

2014-05-01, 04:53 PM

I could be, but there's a difference between wanting a character which always hits and wanting a character which doesn't miss 50% of the time against any character which has put even a modicum of training into stealth. Even a 1st level Rogue can have Darkstalker, and probably any 10th level Rogue would. To fight someone so much weaker and miss every other attack? That just doesn't suit the level of competence that this character has.

From where are you getting this 50% miss chance with Blindsight versus Darkstalker?

Lonely Tylenol

2014-05-01, 05:04 PM

In my opinion, the best way to emulate both the feel and the limitations of Zatoichi would be as follows:

Ask for Blind-Fight in exchange for treating blindness as a "flaw", which will let you reroll your miss chances due to concealment and allow you to retain your DEX bonus against invisible enemies;
Take Hear the Unseen (Complete Adventurer, p. 110), which will let you pinpoint the exact location of your foes based on a Listen check as a move action; and
Some way to mitigate the action cost of Hear the Unseen in crisis situations (for example, Factotum 8, which is already in your build, can give you extra standard actions for Inspiration points; you can use standard actions as move actions to use Hear the Unseen). Remember that Zatoichi was able to hear his enemies and anticipate their movements reflexively.

This combination will let you defeat Darkstalker with a swift action, and reroll all your miss chances once (you can improve upon this with reroll methods if you want).

If your DM is feeling particularly generous, "Blind" might be worth two feats, in which case you can cover both the feat costs with the cost of the blind "flaw".

If your DM is letting you steal out from under his nose, ask if pious opportunist can be used to fuel divine and devotion feats.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 05:06 PM

From where are you getting this 50% miss chance with Blindsight versus Darkstalker?

Because Darkstalker stops Blindsight from working, which means I've gone back to being blind against any Rogue with Darkstalker, which gives them total concealment no matter how high my Listen check to pinpoint their position. With a high Listen you don't even need Blindsight to find them, but without it there's no getting around that 50% miss chance.

In my opinion, the best way to emulate both the feel and the limitations of Zatoichi would be as follows:

Ask for Blind-Fight in exchange for treating blindness as a "flaw", which will let you reroll your miss chances due to concealment and allow you to retain your DEX bonus against invisible enemies;
Take Hear the Unseen (Complete Adventurer, p. 110), which will let you pinpoint the exact location of your foes based on a Listen check as a move action; and
Some way to mitigate the action cost of Hear the Unseen in crisis situations (for example, Factotum 8, which is already in your build, can give you extra standard actions for Inspiration points; you can use standard actions as move actions to use Hear the Unseen). Remember that Zatoichi was able to hear his enemies and anticipate their movements reflexively.

This combination will let you defeat Darkstalker with a swift action, and reroll all your miss chances once (you can improve upon this with reroll methods if you want).

If your DM is feeling particularly generous, "Blind" might be worth two feats, in which case you can cover both the feat costs with the cost of the blind "flaw".

If your DM is letting you steal out from under his nose, ask if pious opportunist can be used to fuel divine and devotion feats.

How does Hear the Unseen help with this? All it lets you do is know a creature's location, which Keen-Eared Scout already does, but explicitly does not remove the concealment miss chance.

The Grue

2014-05-01, 05:12 PM

Because Darkstalker stops Blindsight from working, which means I've gone back to being blind against any Rogue with Darkstalker, which gives them total concealment no matter how high my Listen check to pinpoint their position. With a high Listen you don't even need Blindsight to find them, but without it there's no getting around that 50% miss chance.

That is not at all how Darkstalker works. I suggest you re-read the feat in question.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 05:21 PM

That is not at all how Darkstalker works. I suggest you re-read the feat in question.

That is exactly how Darkstalker works. Darkstalker basically removes you from the radar of any enemy with a radar sense, be it Blindsense/Blindsight/Tremorsense/Scent. To find them, I will have to make a Spot or Listen check as normal. I could already do that, and very well. But being blind gives all my opponents total concealment no matter how well I Listen to them. The basic plan here is to use regular Listen checks to find the opponent, and negate the total concealment with Blindsight, 5 Ft Radius. Except that, as per the feat Darkstalker, that Blindsight won't work on the creature with Darkstalker. Which means their total concealment is not negated. Which means I have a 50% miss chance. Which sucks if a tiny army of 1st level Rogues all pick Darkstalker as their first feat.

So, how was I misinterpreting Darkstalker?

The Grue

2014-05-01, 05:22 PM

That is exactly how Darkstalker works. Darkstalker basically removes you from the radar of any enemy with a radar sense, be it Blindsense/Blindsight/Tremorsense/Scent. To find them, I will have to make a Spot or Listen check as normal. I could already do that, and very well. But being blind gives all my opponents total concealment no matter how well I Listen to them. The basic plan here is to use regular Listen checks to find the opponent, and negate the total concealment with Blindsight, 5 Ft Radius. Except that, as per the feat Darkstalker, that Blindsight won't work on the creature with Darkstalker. Which means their total concealment is not negated. Which means I have a 50% miss chance. Which sucks if a tiny army of 1st level Rogues all pick Darkstalker as their first feat.

So, how was I misinterpreting Darkstalker?

Show me where the text of Darkstalker says that Blindsight no longer functions at all. Hint: It doesn't. It says you make a Spot or Listen check like a normal sighted opponent.

A sighted creature who makes a Spot check to see a hidden one sees it. No 50% miss chance there.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 05:34 PM

Show me where the text of Darkstalker says that Blindsight no longer functions at all. Hint: It doesn't. It says you make a Spot or Listen check like a normal sighted opponent.

A sighted creature who makes a Spot check to see a hidden one sees it. No 50% miss chance there.

Alright, so I can see what you're trying to say, even if it's flawed in its logic. So let me ask you this. When Darkstalker says that the sensing creature must make either a Spot or a Listen check, whichever has a higher DC, how do you intend to get past the fact that a blind creature automatically fails Spot checks and so the Spot DC is effectively infinite? Blindsight lets you notice creatures, sure, but it doesn't affect your Spot check in any way. So even even if you want to argue that a feat which removes the benefit of such an ability (in making that creature make Spot and Listen checks when it doesn't normally) doesn't remove the benefit of such an ability (in somehow allowing you to still count as sighted for purposes of concealment) there's still the issue of the infinite Spot DC. If anything, by your reading of this and the use of "notice" in the text, a creature with Darkstalker is 100% undetectable to a blind creature. Can't even be noticed.

Gemini476

2014-05-01, 05:37 PM

Just checking, but you are aware what exactly being blind entails in D&D, right?

Blinded

The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

Also, just FYI curing blindness is a 3rd level spell. You might want to figure out why your character has not tried to get cured when such a thing is both relatively cheap and easy to find.

Remove Blindness/Deafness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeBlindnessDeafness.htm)
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 3, Pal 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Remove blindness/deafness cures blindness or deafness (your choice), whether the effect is normal or magical in nature. The spell does not restore ears or eyes that have been lost, but it repairs them if they are damaged.

Remove blindness/deafness counters and dispels blindness/deafness.

I'll echo the sentiment to go Warblade 9 since Hearing the Air is pretty much exactly what you're looking for. Warblade is a lot better at being a Samurai than a Factotum is.
Although given how dippable Tome of Battle is you could go something like Factotum 1/Something 1/Warblade 8 and still get the IL 9 necessary for grabbing Hearing the Air. If you're Human then Factotum/Warblade/Iajutsu Master with Able Learner is interesting.

Either way, make sure to talk with your GM to find what you can and cannot use. And for adding the Iajutsu Focus skill to the game, since not every GM would allow you to take it for your Expert/Factotum, much less a Warblade. It doesn't exist outside of Rokugan, after all.

The Grue

2014-05-01, 05:37 PM

Alright, so I can see what you're trying to say, even if it's flawed in its logic. So let me ask you this. When Darkstalker says that the sensing creature must make either a Spot or a Listen check, whichever has a higher DC, how do you intend to get past the fact that a blind creature automatically fails Spot checks and so the Spot DC is effectively infinite? Blindsight lets you notice creatures, sure, but it doesn't affect your Spot check in any way. So even even if you want to argue that a feat which removes the benefit of such an ability (in making that creature make Spot and Listen checks when it doesn't normally) doesn't remove the benefit of such an ability (in somehow allowing you to still count as sighted for purposes of concealment) there's still the issue of the infinite Spot DC. If anything, by your reading of this and the use of "notice" in the text, a creature with Darkstalker is 100% undetectable to a blind creature. Can't even be noticed.

I'm not sure what else to say. You are convinced that my reading of the feat is incorrect. I am convinced that your reading of the feat is incorrect. Is there an official errata or FAQ that deals with this question we can consult?

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 05:44 PM

Just checking, but you are aware what exactly being blind entails in D&D, right?

Also, just FYI curing blindness is a 3rd level spell. You might want to figure out why your character has not tried to get cured when such a thing is both relatively cheap and easy to find.

I'll echo the sentiment to go Warblade 9 since Hearing the Air is pretty much exactly what you're looking for. Warblade is a lot better at being a Samurai than a Factotum is.
Although given how dippable Tome of Battle is you could go something like Factotum 1/Something 1/Warblade 8 and still get the IL 9 necessary for grabbing Hearing the Air. If you're Human then Factotum/Warblade/Iajutsu Master with Able Learner is interesting.

Either way, make sure to talk with your GM to find what you can and cannot use. And for adding the Iajutsu Focus skill to the game, since not every GM would allow you to take it for your Expert/Factotum, much less a Warblade. It doesn't exist outside of Rokugan, after all.

Yeah I'm aware of those, hence why I mentioned them in the first post, so yeah. As for the lack of Remove Blindness, that's a fair point, but I could imagine that someone maybe has a philosophical attachment to their blindness. The character Zatoichi often remarks that there is darkness in the world that he is glad he cannot see. That kind of thing. Maybe.

Okay, even disregarding that I said I didn't want to go too far with ToB, why is Hearing the Air "perfect"? Sure, it's flavorful, very. But it's 30 ft Blindsense. Blindsense is basically no better than having an amazingly high Listen check, because it tells you what square foes are in, but doesn't pinpoint them and doesn't remove the total concealment they get. It doesn't automatically solve the problem.

I'm not sure what else to say. You are convinced that my reading of the feat is incorrect. I am convinced that your reading of the feat is incorrect. Is there an official errata or FAQ that deals with this question we can consult?

Not to my knowledge, but I'm addressing a different point now. Since you're concerned with RAW, tell me how a blind character who fails Spot checks can so much as notice a character with Darkstalker who forces a Spot or Listen check against the higher DC (but, RAW, only against creatures that HAS one of those senses and it doesn't do anything to anyone who doesn't.)

The Grue

2014-05-01, 05:48 PM

Not to my knowledge, but I'm addressing a different point now. Since you're concerned with RAW, tell me how a blind character who fails Spot checks can so much as notice a character with Darkstalker who forces a Spot or Listen check against the higher DC (but, RAW, only against creatures that HAS one of those senses and it doesn't do anything to anyone who doesn't.)

Because automatically failing a Spot check that relies on sight is not the same thing as an infinite Spot DC.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 05:53 PM

Because automatically failing a Spot check that relies on sight is not the same thing as an infinite Spot DC.

It effectively is, unless it's low enough to be less than the Listen DC. So you want to say that if a character with Darkstalker was in the shadows but making a racket around someone who was blind, the blind character wouldn't find them, because the Spot DC is higher than the Listen DC and so the blind character is forced to make a Spot check, which they autofail. Good job, I'm sure your interpretation is *puts on sunglasses* sound.

The Grue

2014-05-01, 05:54 PM

It effectively is

No, it is not. Look up the definition of "infinite" please.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 06:02 PM

No, it is not. Look up the definition of "infinite" please.

For these purposes, a DC that cannot be met no matter how high my Spot check is effectively infinite. Would you like me to say "immeasurably high" instead? Fine, doesn't matter. Address my point.

The Grue

2014-05-01, 06:04 PM

Upon further reading(in order to actually answer your question rather than just be snarky; sorry about that), I noticed this:

When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can fl ank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.

My reading is that Darkstalker applies only to a Hide check, ie "when you hide" rather than "when you hide or move silently". The bit about "whichever DC is higher" is poorly written. Darkstalker thus allows a creature with special senses to oppose a Hide check with their choice of Spot or Listen, because the DC is set when the hiding creature makes their roll. It doesn't change based on the skill you're using.

HighWater

2014-05-01, 06:04 PM

Also, just FYI curing blindness is a 3rd level spell. You might want to figure out why your character has not tried to get cured when such a thing is both relatively cheap and easy to find.
Seconded. Blindness is a very temporary inconvenience once you're in the possession of a couple hundred gp... I also get a bit nervous when people try to carbon-copy a fictional character for the Awesomz and expect the system to have a way of exactly modeling all their special powers (at an affordable price) while ALSO negating their obvious weakness. Sounds like this dude would really be boned against Darkstalkers, or would he really? Probably not in DnD...

"When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can fl ank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality."

That the spot DC would be essentially infinite because you're blind is nonsense. Spot and Listen DCs are not reliant on the spotter/listener, but on the spotted/heared and the circumstances. That means that the Rogue gets to pick whether he wants you to roll against: his Move Silently, or his Hide. Also, you don't have a Spot score, it is essentially (--) (like an undead's constitution), not negative infinity, so it defaults to listen. Which you rock. Which is precisely what you want. Darkstalker only negates blindsight/blindsense in the sense that you don't auto-spot them when they hide within range. That's all it does.
There's also a very good chance that the feat is worded improperly (and that they meant "whichever modifier is higher", as that makes much more sense), and you instead get to roll your BEST check (spot or listen) to find the Rogue. Either way, you come out ahead of properly-sighted people as long as they don't stay out of blindsight range.

Also, Darkstalker isn't core, being from LoM. Does every Rogue in every game you played essentially run around with it, or are you afraid your DM will meta-game and send you Darkstalkers all the time?

Blinded

The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
There's even RAW room for negotiation with your DM before you go into feats and items. Essentially, blindsight "based on hearing" is what you want.

Vedhin

2014-05-01, 06:06 PM

For these purposes, a DC that cannot be met no matter how high my Spot check is effectively infinite. Would you like me to say "immeasurably high" instead? Fine, doesn't matter. Address my point.

Being blind does not increase the DC of Spot checks. It effectively gives you an insurmountable penalty.

Remember, the DC increases if the task is harder to accomplish. The check modifier decreases if the person has a hard time accomplishing the task.

madtinker

2014-05-01, 06:06 PM

Sounds like getting what you want from RAW will be difficult. Is your DM reasonable enough that you can say "If I beat the listen DC by 10 I ignore miss chance"? And maybe there's a slew of reasons why this particular fix is a bad idea, but homebrew may be your only answer here.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 06:20 PM

Being blind does not increase the DC of Spot checks. It effectively gives you an insurmountable penalty.

Remember, the DC increases if the task is harder to accomplish. The check modifier decreases if the person has a hard time accomplishing the task.

Which is why I later corrected myself and said that it's effectively infinite if it's at all higher than the Listen check. Look at my above scenario, of a Darkstalker with a bad Move Silently and a high Hide, being unnoticeable to a blind character with a high Listen (which is the opposite of what should be the case.)

Sounds like getting what you want from RAW will be difficult. Is your DM reasonable enough that you can say "If I beat the listen DC by 10 I ignore miss chance"? And maybe there's a slew of reasons why this particular fix is a bad idea, but homebrew may be your only answer here.

I'm honestly just trying to make a build and am not thinking about any particular DM. I would just like to find a rules-capable way of doing it, and I'd be really surprised if there isn't some rule or feat made for eyeless or dark-dwelling monsters without Blindsight that does this. Keen-Eared Scout comes so close, if only "precise" location meant that it eliminated the miss chance.

Seconded. Blindness is a very temporary inconvenience once you're in the possession of a couple hundred gp... I also get a bit nervous when people try to carbon-copy a fictional character for the Awesomz and expect the system to have a way of exactly modeling all their special powers (at an affordable price) while ALSO negating their obvious weakness. Sounds like this dude would really be boned against Darkstalkers, or would he really?

That the spot DC would be essentially infinite because you're blind is nonsense. Spot and Listen DCs are not reliant on the spotter/listener, but on the spotted/heared and the circumstances. That means that the Rogue gets to pick whether he wants you to roll against his Move Silently, or his Hide. Also, you don't have a Spot score, it is essentially (--) (like an undead's constitution), not negative infinity, so it defaults to listen. Which you rock. Which is precisely what you want. Darkstalker only negates blindsense in the sense that you don't auto-spot them when they hide within range. That's all it does.
There's also a good chance that the feat is worded improperly (and that they meant "whichever modifier is higher"), and you instead get to roll your BEST check (spot or listen) to find the Rogue. Either way, you come out ahead of properly-sighted people as long as they don't stay out of blindsight range.

Also, Darkstalker isn't core, being from LoM. Does every Rogue in every game you played essentially run around with it, or are you afraid your DM will meta-game and send you Darkstalkers all the time?

There's even RAW room for negotiation with your DM before you go into feats and items.

Already addressed Remove Blindness. And sorry, nervous? Why on earth do you care? That D&D has so many resources means that trying to build existing characters is possible within the guidelines of the books. There's no comparison to make with the character and Darkstalker because Darkstalker doesn't exist in these movies. His skill isn't supernatural even if it seems superhuman, and if this D&D character had sight then the Darkstalker thing wouldn't be an issue. It's just that being blind always forces the 50% miss chance no matter how good the hearing. The only reason Darkstalker is an issue is because the cheap D&D way to removing that barrier just rolls over in front of it.

Your remark of "You don't have a Spot" is just wrong. It's said that you automatically fail Spot checks, which means you can still make them, but they'll never work. So you do still have a Spot check. By Darkstalker's wording (and I see no reason to assume the writers meant the opposite of what they said) if an enemy attacks you, makes a Hide and Move Silently check, and starts screaming while they're doing so, then you can't so much as NOTICE them because the Spot DC is higher than the Listen DC, and you fail your Spot check.

Gemini476

2014-05-01, 06:21 PM

For these purposes, a DC that cannot be met no matter how high my Spot check is effectively infinite. Would you like me to say "immeasurably high" instead? Fine, doesn't matter. Address my point.

The DC is completely unchanged, the only thing that being blind does is that you always fail it. A DC 10 Spot check is still DC 10, you just never get to roll the dice (since you auto-fail).

While it may seem like this is the same as the DC being effectively infinite, it is not: this whole discussion is the proof of that.

If the Darkstalker character rolls higher on their Hide check than their Move Silently check, you're out of luck. The same would go for a sighted character without high Spot, though.

The reason I think that Hearing the Air is perfect is because it fits the flavor pretty much to a T.

Your perception becomes so fine that you can hear the tiniest flutter of air moving past you. Invisible foes and other hidden threats become as plain as day in the area of your heightened senses.

Drawing on your combat training, sharpened senses, and capability to predict your enemy’s moves, you become a faultless sentinel on the battlefield. Even the smallest detail or stealthiest enemy cannot hope to evade your notice. While you are in this stance, you gain blindsense out to 30 feet and a +5 insight bonus on Listen checks.

Also because the Listen skill as-is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm)doesn't let you do much. You can pinpoint invisible creatures by beating the DC by 20, but yeah. You still need to take the Blind-Fight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#blindFight)feat to start to get around the miss chance you have, and even then you're still just going for better-of-two and moving and 3/4th speed.

Blindsight/blindsense are pretty much the only ways I know of to approximate "blind but can hear well enough to fight effectively" in 3.5. Blindness isn't an area that seems to be intended for PC adventurers past short stints in pitch-black rooms and periods between being cursed and healed by Remove Blindness.

The Grue

2014-05-01, 06:23 PM

If the Darkstalker character rolls higher on their Hide check than their Move Silently check, you're out of luck. The same would go for a sighted character without high Spot, though.

Unless my reading of the feat is correct(see earlier), and Darkstalker only affects Hide checks. Which makes sense because a blind character already gets to roll Listen against Move Silently.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 06:27 PM

The DC is completely unchanged, the only thing that being blind does is that you always fail it. A DC 10 Spot check is still DC 10, you just never get to roll the dice (since you auto-fail).

While it may seem like this is the same as the DC being effectively infinite, it is not: this whole discussion is the proof of that.

If the Darkstalker character rolls higher on their Hide check than their Move Silently check, you're out of luck. The same would go for a sighted character without high Spot, though.

The reason I think that Hearing the Air is perfect is because it fits the flavor pretty much to a T.

Also because the Listen skill as-is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm)doesn't let you do much. You can pinpoint invisible creatures by beating the DC by 20, but yeah. You still need to take the Blind-Fight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#blindFight)feat to start to get around the miss chance you have, and even then you're still just going for better-of-two and moving and 3/4th speed.

Blindsight/blindsense are pretty much the only ways I know of to approximate "blind but can hear well enough to fight effectively" in 3.5. Blindness isn't an area that seems to be intended for PC adventurers past short stints in pitch-black rooms and periods between being cursed and healed by Remove Blindness.

Welcome to the conversation an hour ago.

HighWater

2014-05-01, 07:05 PM

Welcome to the conversation an hour ago.
You are pretty hostile for somebody who is asking for help.

His skill isn't supernatural even if it seems superhuman, and if this D&D character had sight then the Darkstalker thing wouldn't be an issue. It's just that being blind always forces the 50% miss chance no matter how good the hearing.
Blindsight is an (Ex.), which means it's Extraordinary, not Supernatural. Blindsight also negates the miss chance from all sight-based concealment. It can work through acute hearing. It is exactly what you need:

Blindsight (Ex)

Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. (...)

Your remark of "You don't have a Spot" is just wrong.
True, missed it.

By Darkstalker's wording (and I see no reason to assume the writers meant the opposite of what they said) if an enemy attacks you, makes a Hide and Move Silently check, and starts screaming while they're doing so, then you can't so much as NOTICE them because the Spot DC is higher than the Listen DC, and you fail your Spot check.
You see no reason to assume that the writers might have slipped up when a screaming Rogue that tries to be heard but has made a hide check, cannot be heard by an enemy that has made Listen it's thing, because of a feat? You also see no reason to assume that a feat that has no prerequisites, "allows" first level Rogues to stab an Assassin Vine (CR3) and, any other effectively blind Monster with blindsight/sense, to death without any retribution, because it doesn't have eyes, might have been improperly worded? Really? Really, really? They meant that the snuck-upon creature's best sense (spot or listen) would oppose (set the DC) for the hide check. They didn't word that properly. They should have used the word "modifier", not the word "DC". It happens. Sometimes terms get mixed up, and this can quite easily result in a reversal of what was intended. As far as I can tell, the book never received an errata, though I might be wrong on that, but this is one of the things that should've been fixed. Sometimes common sense must prevail over simple editing errors.

The only thing Darkstalker does, is force blindsense/blindsight etc. creatures to make a Spot or Listen check opposed by a Hide check to notice a hiding Rogue, in the same way that a normal sighted person needs to roll a Spot/Listen to notice a hiding Rogue. You can tell by reading the "Normal" section:
Benefit

When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.

Normal

Creatures with these senses do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice other creatures within range. Creatures with all-around vision can't be flanked.
Blindsight allows you to TRY to hide from a creature with no normal sight, but other senses just as good as it. It doesn't allow you to auto-succeed if it either doesn't have a spot, or a listen.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 07:33 PM

You are pretty hostile for somebody who is asking for help.

I don't want my time wasted by having to redo conversations that have been going on too long already. Oh em gee, totes didn't even think about BLINDSIGHT.

Blindsight is an (Ex.), which means it's Extraordinary, not Supernatural. Blindsight also negates the miss chance from all sight-based concealment. It can work through acute hearing. It is exactly what you need:

I was using supernatural (uncapitalized) to refer to superhuman, beyond natural capabilities, etc, as opposed to a category of abilities from D&D.

To clarify to EVERYONE here, yes, I agree that Blindsight would be the thing to use to defeat that 50% miss chance, but I don't want to disregard the capability of a high Listen check since the benefits granted by Keen-Eared Scout (being able to know creatures' races, carried objects, etc) is pretty cool and fits the character well. As a result, I want to use Listen more than Blindsight, but would be content to rely on things like Blindsight, 5 ft Radius to negate that miss chance. HOWEVER, there's still the stumbling block of Darkstalker, which is a troublesome hurdle. If I can somehow precisely pinpoint creatures by use of Listen, which would bypass Darkstalker's "off the radar" effect, that would be ideal.

You see no reason to assume that the writers might have slipped up when a screaming Rogue that tries to be heard but has made a hide check, cannot be heard by an enemy that has made Listen it's thing, because of a feat? You also see no reason to assume that a feat that has no prerequisites, "allows" first level Rogues to stab an Assassin Vine (CR3) and, any other effectively blind Monster with blindsight/sense, to death without any retribution, because it doesn't have eyes, might have been improperly worded? Really? Really, really? They meant that the snuck-upon creature's best sense (spot or listen) would oppose (set the DC) for the hide check. They didn't word that properly. They should have used the word "modifier", not the word "DC". It happens. Sometimes terms get mixed up, and this can quite easily result in a reversal of what was intended. As far as I can tell, the book never received an errata, though I might be wrong on that, but this is one of the things that should've been fixed. Sometimes common sense must prevail over simple editing errors.

I'm pointing out something that doesn't make sense via RAW, in response to The Grue's statements that the whole "total concealment" clause of blindness is completely circumvented by the presence of Blindsight even against a creature with Darkstalker. I think it's fair to assume that Darkstalker doesn't work the way it seems to say it does, but if you've spent a day on these boards you'll know that common sense takes a back seat to RAW foaming-at-the-mouth fanaticism. Quite frankly, you can houserule whatever you want or whatever makes sense but I'm going to plan for a catch-all that works even with the existing Darkstalker.

The only thing Darkstalker does, is force blindsense/blindsight etc. creatures to make a Spot or Listen check opposed by a Hide check to notice a hiding Rogue, in the same way that a normal sighted person needs to roll a Spot/Listen to notice a hiding Rogue. You can tell by reading the "Normal" section:
Blindsight allows you to TRY to hide from a creature with no normal sight, but other senses just as good as it. It doesn't allow you to auto-succeed if it either doesn't have a spot, or a listen.

I think you meant to write Darkstalker instead of Blindsight there. And the hiding isn't the issue; with a generic Listen check I am convinced that the single square the Darkstalker is occupying can be detected. The issue is ridding the Darkstalker with the 50% concealment that they have by virtue of me being blind, which normally would be negated by my Blindsight.

One Step Two

2014-05-01, 08:04 PM

Just a summary of things I made notes for when I made a blind character:

Uncanny dodge: Always keep Dex to AC even if caught flat-footed or hit by invisible foes. If you can find any way to get this, I cannot recommended it enough.

Feats/Traits:
Illiterate (UA) You cannot read, but you get +1 to another skill, in this case Listen, cause every bit helps.
Skill Focus and Alertness from PHB are so-so, but a nice boost if you can afford them.
Blind-Fighting (PHB) This eliminates the benefits "invisible" attackers would receive against you in close combat, ranged attacks are still iffy though, and gives you the concealment re-roll. You can combine this with the Quick trait (UA) for +10ft movement, and so while moving at three-quaters speed, you're still at a 30ft movement rate.
Keen-Eared Scout(PHB2) Gives you information on the things you hear if you beat their move silently check.
Hear the Unseen (CAdv) lets you make a listen check to pinpoint all foes within 30'. While this doesn't remove miss chance, you can argue that if you beat the DC by 15 as per Keen-Eared scout, you should be able to tell if they are carrying bows, so they don't get any bonuses to attack you.
This combines nicely with Quick Reconnoiter also from CAdv, which lets you make one listen check every round as a Free Action, but needs 5 ranks in spot. Ask your DM if they can relax that requirement.
Additional:
Dragon Magazine 324 has the Superior Hearing, +1 to listen, and various perform checks.
Dragon Magazine 346 has the Passive Reconnoiter, If you spend a full round action searching for opponents for a +3 Circumstance bonus to listen and spot.

Beyond boosting listen checks, there's rare few feats that give you anything more to do with listen checks sadly, Blightsight, 5ft Radius is pretty nice though.

Now, I'm getting a little lost on what the disparity with the whole Darkstalker argument is above me. I know that it lets someone who has the feat take Hide/Move silent checks vs. opponents who normally defeat them (such as blindsight etc) but the feat doesn't do anything to auto-defeat listen/spot checks as normal. In any case, Darkstalker does nothing to the feats I mentioned above.

As for the remove blindness/deafness thing, to be gruesome, no eyes, no problem. Regenerate is the only thing that can fix it them.

I hope this gives you some ideas and insights :smallsmile:

Lonely Tylenol

2014-05-01, 08:17 PM

How does Hear the Unseen help with this? All it lets you do is know a creature's location, which Keen-Eared Scout already does, but explicitly does not remove the concealment miss chance.

Well, first, Hear the Unseen is a static (DC 25) check that lets you hear everything within 30 feet of you, whereas Keen-Eared Scout requires you beat the check by 10 or more to get that information (and unless the creatures are consistently failing to meet Move Silently checks of 15, that means the DCs might be higher on the latter). The fact that Keen-Eared Scout lets you make reactive checks is a plus, though the creature has to do something in order to prompt the check.

The second is that, even though Keen-Eared Scout doesn't explicitly state that it doesn't remove the concealment miss chance, that doesn't mean that it does. Being able to notice and pinpoint a creature's location does not eliminate the miss chance; both of these abilities effectively give you Blindsense that is contingent on hearing, and Blindsense does not negate miss chances due to concealment for "invisible" creatures. No special sense (darkvision, scent, tremorsense, blindsense, etc) short of actual, true-to-life Blindsight, actually negates these miss chances. Since you are not willing to use Blindsight (or Mindsight, or equally good analogue), you won't get a blind creature with none of the drawbacks of blindness.

Nettlekid

2014-05-01, 08:19 PM

The Grue

2014-05-01, 08:25 PM

The thing about Darkstalker was that thanks to Blindsight, 5ft Radius we could ignore the 50% miss chance on foes in melee, but Darkstalker negates that and gives them the concealment back

No, it does not, and it's been explained at least three times now why that is.

I don't want my time wasted by having to redo conversations that have been going on too long already.

Could have fooled me. :smallconfused:

One Step Two

2014-05-01, 08:36 PM

Thanks, this is a good list! I can't believe I didn't think of Uncanny Dodge, that fits in really well. Though getting it might be a small chore. Although then again, Blind-Fight already returns Dex to AC. I forgot about Quick Reconnoiter, and that would be helpful indeed.

The thing about Darkstalker was that thanks to Blindsight, 5ft Radius we could ignore the 50% miss chance on foes in melee, but Darkstalker negates that and gives them the concealment back. I was hoping to find a way to remove the concealment without relying on Blindsight, but it devolved into an argument about the letter of the law with regard to Darkstalker's capabilities and to what degree it negates Blindsight.

The real kicker with Uncanny dodge, is that it applies vs ranged attacks, where blind-fight does not, it's worthwhile having both, if only because blind-fight gives you the re-roll vs concealment as well.

As for Darkstalker... hm, tricky bit of stuff there. See, while darkstalker let's them make hide/move silent checks vs your blindsight, the problem they are going to have is finding something to hide in within 5ft of you, or having Hide in plain sight. In normal circumstances, if there was a rogue with darkstalker and no Hide in plain sight in a room without obstacles and a monster with blindsight, is going to spot them, because... well where is the rogue hiding?

In your case, you're blind, you auto-fail spot based checks, and they have total concealment so they can hide from you, blindsight 5ft however means they cannot have concealment within 5ft of you, and without any form of Hide in plain sight, cannot attempt to hide within 5ft. Or at least, that's my interpretation.

I hope that clarifies.

atemu1234

2014-05-01, 09:39 PM

I don't want my time wasted by having to redo conversations that have been going on too long already. Oh em gee, totes didn't even think about BLINDSIGHT.

I was using supernatural (uncapitalized) to refer to superhuman, beyond natural capabilities, etc, as opposed to a category of abilities from D&D.

To clarify to EVERYONE here, yes, I agree that Blindsight would be the thing to use to defeat that 50% miss chance, but I don't want to disregard the capability of a high Listen check since the benefits granted by Keen-Eared Scout (being able to know creatures' races, carried objects, etc) is pretty cool and fits the character well. As a result, I want to use Listen more than Blindsight, but would be content to rely on things like Blindsight, 5 ft Radius to negate that miss chance. HOWEVER, there's still the stumbling block of Darkstalker, which is a troublesome hurdle. If I can somehow precisely pinpoint creatures by use of Listen, which would bypass Darkstalker's "off the radar" effect, that would be ideal.

I'm pointing out something that doesn't make sense via RAW, in response to The Grue's statements that the whole "total concealment" clause of blindness is completely circumvented by the presence of Blindsight even against a creature with Darkstalker. I think it's fair to assume that Darkstalker doesn't work the way it seems to say it does, but if you've spent a day on these boards you'll know that common sense takes a back seat to RAW foaming-at-the-mouth fanaticism. Quite frankly, you can houserule whatever you want or whatever makes sense but I'm going to plan for a catch-all that works even with the existing Darkstalker.

I think you meant to write Darkstalker instead of Blindsight there. And the hiding isn't the issue; with a generic Listen check I am convinced that the single square the Darkstalker is occupying can be detected. The issue is ridding the Darkstalker with the 50% concealment that they have by virtue of me being blind, which normally would be negated by my Blindsight.

You can reflavor the blindsight to have it refer to listen, but don't mouth off to people trying to help.

Gavinfoxx

2014-05-01, 10:25 PM

Here's an earlier thread on the topic...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?262941-How-to-build-a-blind-man

Mnemnosyne

2014-05-01, 11:28 PM

If you need perfect sensing ability near you with only one condition I can think of that allows it to be negated (incorporeality), what you want is touchsight. To get it with minimum investment, what you want is two levels of Ardent and the Practiced Manifester feat. You take one level of Ardent, stick four other levels in there with Practiced Manifester, and then take a second level, giving you an ML of 5, high enough to manifest touchsight, which is a 3rd level power and takes 5 PP.

However, everyone else is absolutely right on two things: Blindsight is D&D's interpretation of the ability you're describing, so if you're really trying to mimic this character, that is exactly the right ability to use, and Darkstalker does not work that way. It lets creatures attempt to hide from blindsight and so forth, it doesn't automatically overcome blindsight with no way to negate it. It does mean that your character will occasionally come up against someone who is better at hiding than he is at detecting. D&D is not a setting where you are the protagonist with ultimate ability that no one can overcome; other creatures will sometimes be better than you.

It should also be noted, in response to some comments back on the first page, that even with blindsight or even touchsight, blindness is still a major disadvantage. None of D&D's anti-blindness abilities work at a great distance, which means anyone that stays at 120-250 ft. range is going to be very difficult to detect by this character, since the DC to pinpoint their location would be somewhere between 40-ish and 55-ish, and that's with an untrained move silently check. Even a character with the full suite of supersense abilities maintains this weakness.

Nettlekid

2014-05-02, 01:49 AM

No, it does not, and it's been explained at least three times now why that is.

Could have fooled me. :smallconfused:

Once again, Blindsight gives you the capability of locating a target as though you have sight, and Darkstalker forces you to make Spot and Listen checks as normal as opposed to automatic detection. You are being forced to make Spot and Listen checks as though you do not have Blindsight, because if Blindsight applied (to the degree that it would negate concealment) then you wouldn't have to make those checks. Look at what you're actually saying. "Darkstalker doesn't negate Blindsight, you're able to perfectly pinpoint their position without uncertainty, but you can't actually figure out where they are." Your interpretation of Darkstalker gives way to the ridiculous idea of a loud Rogue in shadows being undetectable to a blind character with great hearing. I do not accept your interpretation of it, and it doesn't count as being explained three times when you're just saying the same thing over and over without actually addressing the point I'm raising.

The Grue

2014-05-02, 01:58 AM

I do not accept your interpretation of it, and it doesn't count as being explained three times when you're just saying the same thing over and over without actually addressing the point I'm raising.

Except I have addressed your point, so let me try one more time:

a loud Rogue in shadows being undetectable to a blind character with great hearing

Darkstalker affects Hide checks, not Move Silently checks. A loud rogue, ie a rogue who rolls poorly on Move Silently, is still opposed by the observer's Listen check.

Not only is your reading of the feat wrong, but your reading of my reading of the feat is also wrong. But hey, don't take my word for it.

That the spot DC would be essentially infinite because you're blind is nonsense. Spot and Listen DCs are not reliant on the spotter/listener, but on the spotted/heared and the circumstances. That means that the Rogue gets to pick whether he wants you to roll against: his Move Silently, or his Hide. Also, you don't have a Spot score, it is essentially (--) (like an undead's constitution), not negative infinity, so it defaults to listen. Which you rock. Which is precisely what you want. Darkstalker only negates blindsight/blindsense in the sense that you don't auto-spot them when they hide within range. That's all it does.
There's also a very good chance that the feat is worded improperly (and that they meant "whichever modifier is higher", as that makes much more sense), and you instead get to roll your BEST check (spot or listen) to find the Rogue. Either way, you come out ahead of properly-sighted people as long as they don't stay out of blindsight range.

Being blind does not increase the DC of Spot checks. It effectively gives you an insurmountable penalty.

The DC is completely unchanged, the only thing that being blind does is that you always fail it. A DC 10 Spot check is still DC 10, you just never get to roll the dice (since you auto-fail).

While it may seem like this is the same as the DC being effectively infinite, it is not: this whole discussion is the proof of that.

If the Darkstalker character rolls higher on their Hide check than their Move Silently check, you're out of luck. The same would go for a sighted character without high Spot, though.

The only thing Darkstalker does, is force blindsense/blindsight etc. creatures to make a Spot or Listen check opposed by a Hide check to notice a hiding Rogue, in the same way that a normal sighted person needs to roll a Spot/Listen to notice a hiding Rogue. You can tell by reading the "Normal" section:
Blindsight allows you to TRY to hide from a creature with no normal sight, but other senses just as good as it. It doesn't allow you to auto-succeed if it either doesn't have a spot, or a listen.

However, everyone else is absolutely right on two things: Blindsight is D&D's interpretation of the ability you're describing, so if you're really trying to mimic this character, that is exactly the right ability to use, and Darkstalker does not work that way. It lets creatures attempt to hide from blindsight and so forth, it doesn't automatically overcome blindsight with no way to negate it.

You're right in one respect; it doesn't count as being explained three times. It counts as being explained at least six times. I find this odd coming from someone who throws a tantrum because they "don't like repeating conversations" and keeps demanding that I "address the point".

Regissoma

2014-05-02, 02:26 AM

One Step Two

2014-05-02, 03:17 AM

Have you thought about obtaining Lifesense, or talking about a possible homebrew based off the various options the nice people of the giants in the playground have given you with your DM?
Darkstalker only works against blindsight, tremorsense, scent, and blindsense and it mentions nothing about lifesense. It might not be what you are looking for in your case, but possibly having a custom magic item of Lifesense with 3 charges/day may be the best solution. This is D&D where magic and giant monstrosities out to devour your entire being exist.

Edit: It also sounds like darkstalker will be a feat everyone and their mother has, but thats not the case. If that feat does pop up a lot, it sounds like something you and the DM need to talk about.

I'd also call it a DM trust thing. See, if you've intentionally made a blind character, Darkstalker should only really exist on a personal nemesis, someone who has trained to fight your supernal hearing. However, if every single stealth character is a whisper gnome with boots of elvenkind and Darkstalker, then you know, something is up.

Red Fel

2014-05-02, 07:13 AM

I'd also call it a DM trust thing. See, if you've intentionally made a blind character, Darkstalker should only really exist on a personal nemesis, someone who has trained to fight your supernal hearing. However, if every single stealth character is a whisper gnome with boots of elvenkind and Darkstalker, then you know, something is up.

This, I think, is a very key point.

Even ignoring the other posts in this thread (and I don't think you should, they're really quite right about Blindsight and Darkstalker), a DM shouldn't be throwing out hordes of enemies with this particular and unique ability. By comparison, if I make a melee-focused Fighter or Warblade, it implies a tacit understanding that the DM won't throw out only flying and incorporeal enemies - that would render my character utterly ineffective. I am at the same time (1) expressing my desire that the DM not slap those abilities on every enemy we meet, but (2) accepting that these are in-game concepts and functions and they do appear from time to time.

You, it seems, want assurances that your DM won't be able to employ these abilities against you. By my example again, if a DM threw an Allip at my melee-only fighter, or a Raptoran, I shouldn't become furious. I should be cross if he employs only Allips and Raptorans, but if it's just once in awhile? I'll deal. Same thing here - even ignoring everyone else's advice, you shouldn't get all anxious over the idea that the DM might occasionally give someone an ability that interferes with your effectiveness.

Blindsight is a thing. So is Darkstalker. So are flying, incorporeality, teleportation, damage reduction, antimagic field, and a host of other immunities that reduce or obviate a character's effectiveness. We deal. We just deal.

Vedhin

2014-05-02, 08:05 AM

Once again, Blindsight gives you the capability of locating a target as though you have sight, and Darkstalker forces you to make Spot and Listen checks as normal as opposed to automatic detection. You are being forced to make Spot and Listen checks as though you do not have Blindsight, because if Blindsight applied (to the degree that it would negate concealment) then you wouldn't have to make those checks. Look at what you're actually saying. "Darkstalker doesn't negate Blindsight, you're able to perfectly pinpoint their position without uncertainty, but you can't actually figure out where they are." Your interpretation of Darkstalker gives way to the ridiculous idea of a loud Rogue in shadows being undetectable to a blind character with great hearing. I do not accept your interpretation of it, and it doesn't count as being explained three times when you're just saying the same thing over and over without actually addressing the point I'm raising.

Let me try to make it clear: Darkstalker gives the ability to attempta Hide check against things with special senses. It does not, in any way, guarantee that they "fall off the radar".
It's similar to how Hide In Plain Sight doesn't let you automatically succeed on Hide checks. It just lets you make them in situations where you normally couldn't.

Nettlekid

2014-05-02, 08:36 AM

Except I have addressed your point, so let me try one more time:

Darkstalker affects Hide checks, not Move Silently checks. A loud rogue, ie a rogue who rolls poorly on Move Silently, is still opposed by the observer's Listen check.

Not only is your reading of the feat wrong, but your reading of my reading of the feat is also wrong. But hey, don't take my word for it.

You're right in one respect; it doesn't count as being explained three times. It counts as being explained at least six times. I find this odd coming from someone who throws a tantrum because they "don't like repeating conversations" and keeps demanding that I "address the point".

And I'm not going to just accept a multitude of people saying the same thing if that thing is not correct. This keeps boiling down to you all saying that Darkstalker does not outright trump Blindsight. But describe to me in any way that it does not. The ONLY THING that Blindsight does is automatically detect a creature and find its location with no uncertainty, removing the need for Spot and Listen checks. Darkstalker says "Hey you still need to make Spot and Listen checks." It puts back the only thing Blindsight takes away. Like I JUST said, how can you justify saying that the two abilities let you know exactly where a foe is without giving them concealment and yet makes you unable to notice that foe?

You also keep reading the feat wrong, interpreting things that aren't there. For example, now you're arguing that it only applies to Hide checks. It doesn't say that. It says "when you hide," lowercase h, not "when you make a Hide check." That "hide" can simply be "when you try to make yourself unnoticed by an enemy" in the way that the word "hide" means, and to willfully ignore other means of making yourself unnoticed (such as by being quiet) is just ignoring part of what the feat is doing.

Let me address each quoted post in order:
1: The whole "Spot score is --" thing is nonsense. Blind characters autofail Spot checks which means they are capable of making them. Saying that Darkstalker makes you unable to autospot the user with Blindsight is correct, and yes that's all it does, but that's all it has to do, because that's all Blindsight does.

2,3: Yes, this is true. I was hasty in saying "effectively infinite DC," but "unbeatable DC" does work in this context, and by Darkstalker's admittedly peculiar wording so long as the enemy is forcing Spot checks, you will always lose them. It doesn't matter how high or low the Spot or Listen DC is.

4: Yes, that is all it does. That is exactly what is robbing Blindsight of its power, because that's all Blindsight does. You all keep trying to say that since Blindsight says it removes miss chance and also locates a target then when Darkstalker removes the locate it doesn't remove the removal of miss chance, but that just doesn't make sense. Seriously, how are you going to justify the whole "pinpointing a target you can't detect" part of this argument?

5: Yes, Blindsight is indeed the description of the ability I'm talking about, I am aware of that. However, in the same way that there are many Enchantment spells which mimic the effect of certain powers that people might want to use to build a character and those people will have to worry about interacting with Mind Blank to the point of wanting to find more mundane ways of getting across the same effect while bypassing the block which stops their ability from working, I too want to bypass the catch-all block of Darkstalker by not relying solely on Blindsight.

Have you thought about obtaining Lifesense, or talking about a possible homebrew based off the various options the nice people of the giants in the playground have given you with your DM?
Darkstalker only works against blindsight, tremorsense, scent, and blindsense and it mentions nothing about lifesense. It might not be what you are looking for in your case, but possibly having a custom magic item of Lifesense with 3 charges/day may be the best solution. This is D&D where magic and giant monstrosities out to devour your entire being exist.

Edit: It also sounds like darkstalker will be a feat everyone and their mother has, but thats not the case. If that feat does pop up a lot, it sounds like something you and the DM need to talk about.

This, I think, is a very key point.

Even ignoring the other posts in this thread (and I don't think you should, they're really quite right about Blindsight and Darkstalker), a DM shouldn't be throwing out hordes of enemies with this particular and unique ability. By comparison, if I make a melee-focused Fighter or Warblade, it implies a tacit understanding that the DM won't throw out only flying and incorporeal enemies - that would render my character utterly ineffective. I am at the same time (1) expressing my desire that the DM not slap those abilities on every enemy we meet, but (2) accepting that these are in-game concepts and functions and they do appear from time to time.

You, it seems, want assurances that your DM won't be able to employ these abilities against you. By my example again, if a DM threw an Allip at my melee-only fighter, or a Raptoran, I shouldn't become furious. I should be cross if he employs only Allips and Raptorans, but if it's just once in awhile? I'll deal. Same thing here - even ignoring everyone else's advice, you shouldn't get all anxious over the idea that the DM might occasionally give someone an ability that interferes with your effectiveness.

Blindsight is a thing. So is Darkstalker. So are flying, incorporeality, teleportation, damage reduction, antimagic field, and a host of other immunities that reduce or obviate a character's effectiveness. We deal. We just deal.

I still don't think Lifesense actually works on a blind character, since the feat describes the light as being identical to normal torchlight. Which you still need your eyes to see. Also it just doesn't fit the character theme correctly. That's the same reason I'm not using Synesthete, which is really strong and would remove all penalties with a snap, because it doesn't suit the character and removes the whole point of the character being blind.

And look, I'm not even thinking about playing this in an actual game. (If I was this would actually be a valid concern since the DM I would most likely play it with LOVES Roguish characters and thinks Darkstalker is amazing and would stick it on tanks and dragons if he had the chance, and who am I to stop him?) I'm just trying to flesh out a character idea, and yeah, I acknowledge that it likely won't come up very often, but if it does, I want to be prepared for it. You're acting like I'm trying to autohit everything, but like I said earlier, I don't want to go up against ten 1st level Rogues who are from the "Darkstalker School" and keep whiffing against these little mooks. You'll notice that I haven't been complaining about incorporeal enemies, who are perfectly silent and will be really hard for this guy to fight. I recognize that, and know that that's a stumbling block he'll face at some point.

Let me try to make it clear: Darkstalker gives the ability to attempta Hide check against things with special senses. It does not, in any way, guarantee that they "fall off the radar".
It's similar to how Hide In Plain Sight doesn't let you automatically succeed on Hide checks. It just lets you make them in situations where you normally couldn't.

But it DOES take you off the radar of the special senses! Not the CREATURE per se, but that creature will never be able to find you with Blindsight or Tremorsense. Yes I suppose that if they make the Spot check to see you and their eyes would not be normally able to see you then they're sort of using their ability to find you, but it's really no different than making a normal Spot or Listen check without any complicating factors like darkness. And making a normal Spot or Listen check would still have this guy taking a 50% miss chance because even using Listen to find a target doesn't pinpoint their location, even if it finds their square. Hence, Darkstalker puts back that 50% miss chance. And that's what I want to try to avoid.

Adverb

2014-05-02, 09:30 AM

Daredevil is a blind man with the superpower of sight. Daredevil was played by Ben Affleck. [I]Don't be Ben Affleck.

Wise words!

Nettlekid, this is a sweet idea you're chasing, and I hope it works out for you.

Red Fel

2014-05-02, 09:48 AM

And look, I'm not even thinking about playing this in an actual game. (If I was this would actually be a valid concern since the DM I would most likely play it with LOVES Roguish characters and thinks Darkstalker is amazing and would stick it on tanks and dragons if he had the chance, and who am I to stop him?) I'm just trying to flesh out a character idea, and yeah, I acknowledge that it likely won't come up very often, but if it does, I want to be prepared for it. You're acting like I'm trying to autohit everything, but like I said earlier, I don't want to go up against ten 1st level Rogues who are from the "Darkstalker School" and keep whiffing against these little mooks. You'll notice that I haven't been complaining about incorporeal enemies, who are perfectly silent and will be really hard for this guy to fight. I recognize that, and know that that's a stumbling block he'll face at some point.

That's the problem in a nutshell, then. You're willing to take on the "penalty," but not if it hinders your character in any real or reasonable way. Not even if it has a chance - one which you acknowledge "likely won't come up very often" - of hindering your character.

Look. There are obstacles that hinder almost every character concept. Flying enemies. Antimagic fields. Freedom of Movement. Wind Wall. Pretty much everything a Wizard does. They're an accepted risk of the game. With the exception of playing a Wizard or CoDzilla, there's basically no such thing as a build that doesn't have an exploitable weak point.

In the same breath, you acknowledge that Darkstalker is uncommon, and yet assert that its very existence in the game system renders the proposed suggestion, which is otherwise perfectly feasible, completely worthless. In essence, you contend that because Darkstalker even exists, Blindsight would never work for a concept like this, on the off chance you might encounter "ten 1st level Rogues who are from the 'Darkstalker School'[.]"

At this point, there is no advice I can give you. If I abandoned every character concept I had because somewhere out there was a feat, spell, or ability that trumped it, I'd be left with only Tier 1 caster builds. And I'd be bored to tears with them.

Take the risk. Embrace that your character's strength is based in his weakness.

I love the concept. I really do. But Zatoichi is a blind swordsman, who developed skills to overcome his handicap. A handicap which, despite his extraordinary talents, he still possesses. Someone who finds a way to exploit that has defeated Zatoichi, or at least jeopardized him. Full stop. That's an acceptable dramatic decision, and makes for a compelling story. Insisting that nobody in the world is allowed to bypass Zatoichi's miraculous senses defeats that dramatic element. D&D doesn't work the way you seem to think it does, or should.

Nettlekid

2014-05-02, 12:11 PM

That's the problem in a nutshell, then. You're willing to take on the "penalty," but not if it hinders your character in any real or reasonable way. Not even if it has a chance - one which you acknowledge "likely won't come up very often" - of hindering your character.

Look. There are obstacles that hinder almost every character concept. Flying enemies. Antimagic fields. Freedom of Movement. Wind Wall. Pretty much everything a Wizard does. They're an accepted risk of the game. With the exception of playing a Wizard or CoDzilla, there's basically no such thing as a build that doesn't have an exploitable weak point.

In the same breath, you acknowledge that Darkstalker is uncommon, and yet assert that its very existence in the game system renders the proposed suggestion, which is otherwise perfectly feasible, completely worthless. In essence, you contend that because Darkstalker even exists, Blindsight would never work for a concept like this, on the off chance you might encounter "ten 1st level Rogues who are from the 'Darkstalker School'[.]"

At this point, there is no advice I can give you. If I abandoned every character concept I had because somewhere out there was a feat, spell, or ability that trumped it, I'd be left with only Tier 1 caster builds. And I'd be bored to tears with them.

Take the risk. Embrace that your character's strength is based in his weakness.

I love the concept. I really do. But Zatoichi is a blind swordsman, who developed skills to overcome his handicap. A handicap which, despite his extraordinary talents, he still possesses. Someone who finds a way to exploit that has defeated Zatoichi, or at least jeopardized him. Full stop. That's an acceptable dramatic decision, and makes for a compelling story. Insisting that nobody in the world is allowed to bypass Zatoichi's miraculous senses defeats that dramatic element. D&D doesn't work the way you seem to think it does, or should.

There are degrees of penalties that I am prepared to accept, but also those that I don't want to be bogged down by. I mentioned incorporeal creatures before, which are exactly the kind of "My qualities defeat you full stop" baddies that you're talking about. In a build for a sound-based swordsman, that's something that I'm glad to embrace as a weakness. I'd even be willing to take on the other penalties for blindness like the half speed and penalties to AC, most or all of which are removed by the single feat Blind-Fight but really don't need to be. I'm not trying to make a mundane fighter, blind or otherwise, without weakness. But I want the weaknesses he has to be relevant.

See, if there was a creature with Darkstalker which ALSO had an amazingly high Move Silently check, such that neither Blindsight nor regular Listen checks could find it, that would be a valid enemy worthy of claiming victory over Zatoichi because they've beaten him at his own game. The same way that I'm being frustrated that Darkstalker trumps Blindsight, I've been annoyed in the past that Blindsight trumps any super-high Hide check (the same way I don't like True Seeing beating any Illusionist, or Mind Blank beating any Enchanter). If two opponents weren't using these all-or-nothing abilities and matching one another with their skills alone, that would be fine. The thing which is annoying me the MOST is that an opponent might have Darkstalker and a middling Move Silently. Zatoichi here can easily find the guy's square with his super high Listen check. But even knowing right where the guy is standing, he'll miss 50% of his attacks. And that is not indicative of Zatoichi's skill.

I'm not saying that Blindsight, 5ft Radius isn't a good idea. It's great for 90, 95% of opponents I'd fight, discounting incorporeals and Darkstalkers. I think that the qualities of incorporeality justify it being a naturally good matchup against this type of character. A master assassin with Darkstalker too. But any old Darkstalker, not so much. I don't think that's an unfair opinion, right?

Also, I thought of a good example as to why the many previous remarks of "Darkstalker leaves you with Blindsight's elimination of the total concealment" can't be right. Imagine a creature like a Grimlock or whatever with Blindsight and that also has bad Spot and Listen, fighting a Rogue with Darkstalker. The Rogue hides, and the Grimlock fails to Spot or Listen the Rogue, so the Grimlock has no idea where the Rogue is. But against all odds, the Grimlock randomly attacks into the square that the Rogue is hiding in! In this case, does the Grimlock not have any miss chance despite the fact that the Grimlock doesn't know the Rogue's position in any way? No way, he's got a 50% miss chance like any creature randomly attacking into a square that just so happens to have a creature in it! But by your argument, because he has Blindsight, that would remove the miss chance. Which is just ridiculous.

EDIT: Unrelated to the above, but does anyone know of any way to change the school of a spell? Namely, turning an Enchantment or Necromancy spell into an Illusion spell. I've kept the earlier suggestion of using Pierce Magical Concealment in conjunction with magically induced Blindness to negate the miss chance, and although I don't want to sink that many feats into it, it's a great workaround. An Illusion Bane weapon will ignore miss chances stemming from Illusion effects. If the blindness was an Illusion effect, that would apply.

Alternatively, I could just take True Believer and worship Fharlanghn and use a Rapier of Unerring Direction, which outright ignores all miss chances no matter their source.

Dr. Azkur

2014-05-02, 12:39 PM

This is so weird. I saw Zatoichi for the first time yesterday too!

The Grue

2014-05-02, 01:33 PM

And I'm not going to just accept a multitude of people saying the same thing if that thing is not correct.

There's a saying I heard once that I've tried unsuccessfully to place. It goes something like this: "If one person says you're wrong, they're probably wrong. If everybody says you're wrong, then you likely are."

This keeps boiling down to you all saying that Darkstalker does not outright trump Blindsight. But describe to me in any way that it does not.

No no no no,

Stop.

Discussions don't work that way. You don't get to demand that I explain X, after I've already explained X and you've flat-out declared that you refuse to accept my explanation.

I'm shocked it's taken me this long to realize, but you aren't actually interested in discussion here. What you are doing is the written equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling that you can't hear me. Well, you win. Congratulations.

John Longarrow

2014-05-02, 01:37 PM

Nettlekid,
You do know that a whisper gnome baker will beat your character's listen every time. They get silence as a racial ability. They can make themselves silent and walk right by him.

Nettlekid

2014-05-02, 02:48 PM

There's a saying I heard once that I've tried unsuccessfully to place. It goes something like this: "If one person says you're wrong, they're probably wrong. If everybody says you're wrong, then you likely are."

No no no no,

Stop.

Discussions don't work that way. You don't get to demand that I explain X, after I've already explained X and you've flat-out declared that you refuse to accept my explanation.

I'm shocked it's taken me this long to realize, but you aren't actually interested in discussion here. What you are doing is the written equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling that you can't hear me. Well, you win. Congratulations.

I ask you to adequately explain something. Nothing of yours to this point has been adequate, so I refuse to accept that, and request something more substantial than "It works this way cuz I say so cuz I want it to." You're the one who refuses to actually address any of the points I'm raising in objection to your argument, instead choosing to blithely mix and match your own interpretation of RAW and RAI while not actually...you know, helping. Look at my last post, specifically the bit just above the edit about a monster that fails its Spot and Listen, and tell me what you make of that with regard to your stance. You never actually addressed the whole "loud and shadowed Rogue" thing either. Actually discuss with me what I'm asking you to discuss, because you've already derailed my thread and I'd appreciate you either finishing whatever half-baked objection you start with, or stepping aside and letting actually useful people like Red Fel and One Step Two engage more thoroughly. I won't have to put up with you and juggle more civil-minded posters that way. Actually, strike the first part, I'd appreciate the latter far more than the former.

EDIT: By the way, you know what would be great? You actually quoting my whole post and responding to each part the way I've done to you. You quote a bunch of people saying they support your argument? I address each quote and explain why I do not find their reasoning valid, or which parts I agree with but which do not break apart my stance. You? You pluck out one sentence and scribble something down angrily in response to that. Not what I asked for. If you're going to lecture me on how to have a discussion, at least do THAT right.

Nettlekid

2014-05-02, 02:51 PM

Nettlekid,
You do know that a whisper gnome baker will beat your character's listen every time. They get silence as a racial ability. They can make themselves silent and walk right by him.

I was wondering about that as well. Now, the spell Amplify counters and dispels Silence. Does that mean that if I had an item of Amplify, any area which overlapped with the Silence would be rendered normal volume, or does that mean that I'd have to actually cast Amplify on a Silenced area in order to remove the effect of Silence?

John Longarrow

2014-05-02, 03:21 PM

Nettlekid,
Where is Amplify from? I would need to read the spell to answer.

Nettlekid

2014-05-02, 03:35 PM

Nettlekid,
Where is Amplify from? I would need to read the spell to answer.

Spell Compendium, but here (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/amplify--3825/) you go. It's like a Haste and Slow type deal.

Troacctid

2014-05-02, 05:02 PM

EDIT: By the way, you know what would be great? You actually quoting my whole post and responding to each part the way I've done to you. You quote a bunch of people saying they support your argument? I address each quote and explain why I do not find their reasoning valid, or which parts I agree with but which do not break apart my stance. You? You pluck out one sentence and scribble something down angrily in response to that. Not what I asked for. If you're going to lecture me on how to have a discussion, at least do THAT right.

That's a great way to tackle a formal debate where you're trying to prove someone is wrong to an objective third party, but in an internet discussion where you're trying to influence someone's opinion, ignoring the big picture to focus on minutiae is basically the opposite of convincing.

John Longarrow

2014-05-02, 05:35 PM

NettleKid,

I think I can explain DarkStalker in an easy to understand way that should clarify everything.

Darkstalker allows you to make a HIDE check.

This HIDE check is opposed EITHER by SPOT or LISTEN (which ever has a higher DC).

The modifiers for SPOT are +1 per 10'
The modifiers for LISTEN are generally a lot worse.

In game, what should happen is
1) Enemy decides to use HIDE against you with darkstalker. The enemy needs to have partial cover or concealment unless they have hide in plain site. This is required by the HIDE skill.

Say you are facing a small Dex 18 rogue with 4 ranks in HIDE and a +4 racial to HIDE. They set the HIDE DC to d20+4(small)+4(Dex)+4(Skill)+4(Racial) or an average of 27.

They then try to move closer to you to attack.

2) You get a LISTEN check VS their MOVE SILENT to hear them.

3) You either do a LISTEN check VS 27+LISTEN modifiers (should be about a DC 35) or a SPOT check VS 27+SPOT modifiers (should be about a DC 30). Check SPOT and LISTEN for the modifiers.

4) For each 5' the little guy moves, he gets a -5 to his HIDE. If he started 20' away the DC for your LISTEN to 'See' him with blindsight will be about a 15 (or a 10 for SPOT, so DarkStalker makes you do the listen) when he is 5' away.

5) When he attacks, the little guy gets another -20 to his HIDE (per HIDE skill). Your DC to 'see' with Blindsight is now a DC -5 Listen check.

Does this make it a little easier to understand? The DC for SPOT is set by the rules. Your being blind doesn't impact the DC. You can't make a SPOT check, but that doesn't affect what the initial DC would be.

This is the same rules interaction as launching a fire spell against a creature immune to fire that has SR. You have to beat their SR first. Doesn't matter that the spell can't affect them, you still need to go through SR (and possibly a save) before your spell does nothing.

If your character is 10th level, as a 16 Wisdom, max ranks in Listen, and skill focus(listen) you are +19 on a listen check. If you have blind sight, you will probably 'see' the low level rogue before he gets close. You would only need to do SPOT checks if it is perfectly quiet and you are on or under water (oddly listen is easier in game underwater, something that doesn't meet reality).

atemu1234

2014-05-02, 05:46 PM

I ask you to adequately explain something. Nothing of yours to this point has been adequate, so I refuse to accept that, and request something more substantial than "It works this way cuz I say so cuz I want it to." You're the one who refuses to actually address any of the points I'm raising in objection to your argument, instead choosing to blithely mix and match your own interpretation of RAW and RAI while not actually...you know, helping. Look at my last post, specifically the bit just above the edit about a monster that fails its Spot and Listen, and tell me what you make of that with regard to your stance. You never actually addressed the whole "loud and shadowed Rogue" thing either. Actually discuss with me what I'm asking you to discuss, because you've already derailed my thread and I'd appreciate you either finishing whatever half-baked objection you start with, or stepping aside and letting actually useful people like Red Fel and One Step Two engage more thoroughly. I won't have to put up with you and juggle more civil-minded posters that way. Actually, strike the first part, I'd appreciate the latter far more than the former.

EDIT: By the way, you know what would be great? You actually quoting my whole post and responding to each part the way I've done to you. You quote a bunch of people saying they support your argument? I address each quote and explain why I do not find their reasoning valid, or which parts I agree with but which do not break apart my stance. You? You pluck out one sentence and scribble something down angrily in response to that. Not what I asked for. If you're going to lecture me on how to have a discussion, at least do THAT right.

Okay. Now I'll explain it, an objective third party. Totally RAW, your character idea, while fairly awesome, sucks. Even with Blind-Fight at first level, you're still missing a 25% miss chance on top of a system that doesn't guarantee a hit in the first place. Your only hope is Blindsight, because Blindsense doesn't provide most of the benefits actual sight does. Unless your DM gives you Blindsight, your character would die unless he started out with actual sight for a few levels, takes blind-fight for an unrelated reason, then becomes blinded. Even then, Regenerate lets you get back your eyesight in under 24 hours. So your character, flavor-wise, cannot survive, for a similar reason why a Good Drow stands such a limited chance of survival.

Just because an idea is awesome doesn't mean that the rules support it. Unless the DM is experienced enough to homebrew a balanced set of things for this character, the RAW causes it to be destroyed at first level when it runs into something with a high move silently skill. In other words, talk to your DM, not us.

If you want my opinion and ideas, do the following.

1. Give it the following homebrewed flaw:

Permanent Blindness (Flaw):

Your character was either born blind or blinded at a young age. He is permanently incapable of sight (regenerate cannot allow him to regrow his eyes, nor can a Remove Blindness spell relieve this inability). He automatically fails sight-based checks and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks. He is treated as blinded for the purpose of determining other penalties.

Special: Characters with this flaw must take Blind-Fight as the bonus feat this flaw grants. The way they've matured has made taking this feat a necessity.

2. Give it this homebrewed feat:

Improved Listening (General)
Prerequisites: Permanent Blindness Flaw, Blind-Fight, Listen 8 ranks, Skill Focus (Listen), Wis 16

Your character has learned to cope with his blindness. He can make any sight based check with an equal listen check. You also gain an additional bonus equal to your original (without bonuses granted by items) wisdom bonus to your Listen checks (this stacks with bonuses granted by your wisdom score originally)

3. And give him this homebrewed feat too.

See While Blind (General)
Prerequisites: Improved Listening, Permanent Blindness Flaw, Blind-Fight, Listen 15 ranks, Skill Focus (Listen), Wis 19

Your character has learned to use his blindness to his advantage, his ability to listen has granted him power. He gains Blindsight 15 ft, and gains a +2 bonus on listen checks.

Nettlekid

2014-05-02, 06:04 PM

That's a great way to tackle a formal debate where you're trying to prove someone is wrong to an objective third party, but in an internet discussion where you're trying to influence someone's opinion, ignoring the big picture to focus on minutiae is basically the opposite of convincing.

I wasn't saying that I was trying to pick apart each sentence, which is more of what this guy's doing (except only taking two sentences or so out of my whole post.) With regard to the whole answering it bit by bit, that was because I claimed he hadn't validated his claims, and he replied with many quotes from other people saying similar, and so I was addressing each quote individually to explain why I still didn't feel like his claim was validated. I've been trying to address big points and use small examples to point out stumbling blocks where his points are proven wrong.

*snip*

I know how making skill checks works. And I have already acknowledged that my remark about the Hide DC being infinite was made hastily, and is incorrect. What I should have said, and subsequently said repeatedly, is that because you autofail Spot checks you can never meet the DC, no matter how low it is. By the wording of Darkstalker, which forces a Spot or Listen check against the higher DC, if a sneaking foe intentionally made a terribly low Move Silently check and a slightly higher Hide check, then I'd be forced to make a Spot check against the higher DC, which I fail, which means because of Darkstalker I am unable to so much as notice them. A blind character with amazing hearing can't notice a noisy character in shadow. This is a dysfunction that I've been remarking on.

Okay. Now I'll explain it, an objective third party. Totally RAW, your character idea, while fairly awesome, sucks. Even with Blind-Fight at first level, you're still missing a 25% miss chance on top of a system that doesn't guarantee a hit in the first place. Your only hope is Blindsight, because Blindsense doesn't provide most of the benefits actual sight does. Unless your DM gives you Blindsight, your character would die unless he started out with actual sight for a few levels, takes blind-fight for an unrelated reason, then becomes blinded. Even then, Regenerate lets you get back your eyesight in under 24 hours. So your character, flavor-wise, cannot survive, for a similar reason why a Good Drow stands such a limited chance of survival.

Just because an idea is awesome doesn't mean that the rules support it. Unless the DM is experienced enough to homebrew a balanced set of things for this character, the RAW causes it to be destroyed at first level when it runs into something with a high move silently skill. In other words, talk to your DM, not us.

If you want my opinion and ideas, do the following.

1. Give it the following homebrewed flaw:

Permanent Blindness (Flaw):

Your character was either born blind or blinded at a young age. He is permanently incapable of sight (regenerate cannot allow him to regrow his eyes, nor can a Remove Blindness spell relieve this inability). He automatically fails sight-based checks and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks. He is treated as blinded for the purpose of determining other penalties.

Special: Characters with this flaw must take Blind-Fight as the bonus feat this flaw grants. The way they've matured has made taking this feat a necessity.

2. Give it this homebrewed feat:

Improved Listening (General)
Prerequisites: Permanent Blindness Flaw, Blind-Fight, Listen 8 ranks, Skill Focus (Listen), Wis 16

Your character has learned to cope with his blindness. He can make any sight based check with an equal listen check. You also gain an additional bonus equal to your original (without bonuses granted by items) wisdom bonus to your Listen checks (this stacks with bonuses granted by your wisdom score originally)

3. And give him this homebrewed feat too.

See While Blind (General)
Prerequisites: Improved Listening, Permanent Blindness Flaw, Blind-Fight, Listen 15 ranks, Skill Focus (Listen), Wis 19

Your character has learned to use his blindness to his advantage, his ability to listen has granted him power. He gains Blindsight 15 ft, and gains a +2 bonus on listen checks.

These are valid points, but I think that an adequate amount of roleplaying (especially if starting at a higher level where you can have the character gain his first few levels in backstory) can break through it. If this character was a trained swordsman then he could have been trained and show excellent talent, but became blinded, and although his mentors wrote him off there was one guy who kept training him in secret (helping him gain more levels) until he became competent enough to fight in the real world. Or maybe he was a blind beggar, lacking in martial skill but excelling in guile (which rather fits a Factotum, or at least one kind) and became skilled enough at manipulation and understanding people's movements, gaining XP through non-combat encounters and then going on as normal.

So I agree, it would be rather difficult to play from level 1, but from level 6 or so onward? That can start working. Level 12? Level 15? The character can work fine.

atemu1234

2014-05-02, 06:12 PM

So I agree, it would be rather difficult to play from level 1, but from level 6 or so onward? That can start working. Level 12? Level 15? The character can work fine.

Ok, so I was relatively diplomatic. I was worried. Now, at a level that can work with the penalties to being blind (pretty much any with full BAB) you can get away with the penalties to base attack, from maybe tenth level onward. The feats I made above allow for a character progression, requiring continual investment rather than simply "one-feat-fix"ing it. With Blind-Fight you've got the ability to reduce penalties due to being blind, and the feats fix the flavor issues.

Nettlekid

2014-05-02, 06:18 PM

Ok, so I was relatively diplomatic. I was worried. Now, at a level that can work with the penalties to being blind (pretty much any with full BAB) you can get away with the penalties to base attack, from maybe tenth level onward. The feats I made above allow for a character progression, requiring continual investment rather than simply "one-feat-fix"ing it. With Blind-Fight you've got the ability to reduce penalties due to being blind, and the feats fix the flavor issues.

Yeah, that's very fair. And you're absolutely right, from level 1 it would be nearly impossible to play this kind of character. I would think playing levels 1-4 being sighted (but picking up Blind-Fight for some flavor reason), losing your sight just before level 5, and getting Blindsight, 5ft Radius at level 6 would be the way to go in this case.

I like your feats, but I prefer not to have to rely on homebrew. I like going with clear-cut, unambiguous things, and homebrew often complicates that.

atemu1234

2014-05-02, 06:50 PM

Yeah, that's very fair. And you're absolutely right, from level 1 it would be nearly impossible to play this kind of character. I would think playing levels 1-4 being sighted (but picking up Blind-Fight for some flavor reason), losing your sight just before level 5, and getting Blindsight, 5ft Radius at level 6 would be the way to go in this case.

I like your feats, but I prefer not to have to rely on homebrew. I like going with clear-cut, unambiguous things, and homebrew often complicates that.

All in all, there really is no way to make this work going completely off of RAW.

Nettlekid

2014-05-02, 07:03 PM

All in all, there really is no way to make this work going completely off of RAW.

What do you mean? If you're talking about RAW and pure crunch as opposed to flavor, it's not so bad. As has been mentioned already, it works about 95% of the time. With Blind-Fight alone all you suffer from being blind is 3/4 movement speed, -4 on Search and most Str and Dex skill checks (but not Str and Dex based checks period, which is pretty nice), and that troublesome 50% miss chance. With Blindsight 5ft Radius you remove the trouble of that 50% miss chance against all but Darkstalkers, and with a Rapier of Unerring Direction you remove it for good. RAW? Not a lot of trouble. Fluff? Flavorful as a weakness should be.

It's not world-breaking power, but if that's your only concept of making an idea "work" then nothing but a Tier 1 is going to satisfy that anyway. This works just fine.

Segev

2014-05-02, 11:54 PM

Honestly, I think the biggest problem you might have is one of verisimilitude: Once you get past a certain level, why haven't you just gotten Remove Blindness cast on you by a cleric? The reasons for keeping such things around when solutions exist always feel...contrived...to me. I can think of only one example where it didn't, and there, a major plot point revolves around it.

Rezo the Red Priest is the greatest healer known to the world, but he cannot cure his own blindness (and neither can anybody else) because the Big Bad of season 1 is sealed in his eyes. His blindness is caused by the seal, since if he ever managed to open his eyes, Shabranigdo would be released. It's not a matter of healing at all.

That said, it probably would not be unreasonable to ask your DM for a custom Trait that let you be blind, and suffer all the interaction problems this causes (inability to read, discern colors, and other such things), and be required to make Listen checks to pinpoint enemies in combat. The benefit is that you would not suffer a miss chance against enemies if you know what square they're in.

John Longarrow

2014-05-05, 07:45 AM

I know how making skill checks works. And I have already acknowledged that my remark about the Hide DC being infinite was made hastily, and is incorrect. What I should have said, and subsequently said repeatedly, is that because you autofail Spot checks you can never meet the DC, no matter how low it is. By the wording of Darkstalker, which forces a Spot or Listen check against the higher DC, if a sneaking foe intentionally made a terribly low Move Silently check and a slightly higher Hide check, then I'd be forced to make a Spot check against the higher DC, which I fail, which means because of Darkstalker I am unable to so much as notice them. A blind character with amazing hearing can't notice a noisy character in shadow. This is a dysfunction that I've been remarking on.

Rules as Written, you make either a LISTEN or SPOT check against the person with Dark Stalkers's HIDE check.
The DC is based on HIDE.
The modifiers are based on either SPOT or LISTEN.

The only case where you have an easier time making the LISTEN check is when you are underwater (doesn't make sense) OR when you are in perfect silence OVER water.

The skill MOVE SILENT does not play a role.

Please read the feat again. It is specific to using HIDE only. You need to then look at both the LISTEN and SPOT skills to see what modifiers apply based on distance and other conditions.

In the feat, there is no reference to MOVE SILENT.

NOTE: I am looking at the feat in LoM. If you are using a different version, please specify which version.

torrasque666

2014-05-05, 09:28 AM

From what I have seen, you are asking how to make a impaired character and then.... not have to deal with the weakness.

Simply put: A creature with Darkstalker is effectively in Darkness to these creatures that normally overcome Darkness. That's the shtick. Deal with it. The only thing that separates you from from the rest is that you can't remove your darkness. Otherwise you are no different from a shmuck without a torch in a similar inability to see.

Otherwise, try using the argument of "Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them." and one such adaption is not autofailing spot checks. But using the RAW, I'm not seeing anything that would let you do so.

Vedhin

2014-05-05, 09:31 AM

Simply put: A creature with Darkstalker is effectively in Darkness to these creatures that normally overcome Darkness. That's the shtick. Deal with it. The only thing that separates you from from the rest is that you can't remove your darkness. Otherwise you are no different from a shmuck without a torch in a similar inability to see.

That's not how Darkstalker works, as many have explained before.

torrasque666

2014-05-05, 09:45 AM

When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.

In many cases, some characters or monsters might be able to see, while others are blinded. For purposes of the following points, a blinded creature is one who simply can't see through the surrounding darkness.

Creatures who are blinded must make Listen Checks to point out where their foes are. Creatures who have Darkstalker impose a similar effect on nonsighted(who overcome blindness with an ability) creatures. How is that not how it works?

Blinded = make listen checks, due to not being able to see.

Darkstalker = make listen checks(if creature is not hiding) or spot checks(if creature is hiding).

Note that a creature with darkstalker can't just hide anywhere, unless granted that through other means. A single pair of eyes on your foe, prevents hiding, it doesn't have to be yours. This means a familiar, an animal companion, a summon, ANYTHING can prevent a creature from initiating a spot check against you. If they are more than (assuming a land speed of 30) 15 feet away they take a -5. If they are 30 feet away, they take a -20. He's complaining about spot checks, when if they are a problem for him, most likely they will not be a problem for someone else. If even one person beats the DC for spot, the enemy is being observed and therefore CANNOT hide. So unless his entire group fails a spot check, someone will eliminate the need for him to make them and thus autofailing them. Yes, if the entire group is blinded, he can be hidden from. If he's alone, he can be hidden from. But unless conditions are met to allow for hide (concealment or cover) he won't be making spots. Yes, a 17th level ranger might provide a challenge. Yes, a 13th level ranger can hide anywhere regardless of cover or concealment. But my point still stands that unless he/the group encounters a situation where EVERYONE fails Spot, he'll be fine.

John Longarrow

2014-05-05, 09:53 AM

Nettlekid

2014-05-05, 01:11 PM

torrasque666,

Please note the 3rd word in your post. You must HIDE.

As a sample, character makes a DC 25 HIDE check.

2 monsters are 20 and 30 feet away.

The SPOT DC to see the character would be 25 (set by character's HIDE check) + 2 or +3 for range.
The LISTEND DC to hear the character would be 25 (set by the character's HIDE check) +2 or +3 for range AND any other modifiers per the listen skill.

If the character with Dark Stalker does not HIDE, it doesn't apply.
If the character with Dark Stalker can't hide (see the HIDE skill for reasons why), then it doesn't come into play.

The feat is pretty limited really.

You are incorrect. The feat says "When you hide," not "When you make a Hide check." Feats and spells and special abilities which use or otherwise modify checks call out the check as such. To "hide" is just to make yourself difficult to detect, and in game terms, that means using the Hide and/or Move Silently skill to conceal yourself from being detected.

Your claim is that the Hide check sets the DC for a Listen check to detect the creature. Listen is never used to oppose Hide. In addition, saying that if you aren't making a Hide check means that Darkstalker does nothing to help you is like saying that an Invisible creature is fully visible to all other creatures because Invisibility grants either a +20 or +40 bonus to Hide checks, so if they aren't making a check they aren't using that to their advantage and can be seen normally. That is not the case. Making a Hide check is a definite action, but hiding is simply a way of going about your business and can be seen as ambiguously continuous throughout. If you want not to be noticed, even if you aren't making a Hide and Move Silently check, you might still be "hiding."

Vedhin

2014-05-05, 01:17 PM

In addition, saying that if you aren't making a Hide check means that Darkstalker does nothing to help you is like saying that an Invisible creature is fully visible to all other creatures because Invisibility grants either a +20 or +40 bonus to Hide checks, so if they aren't making a check they aren't using that to their advantage and can be seen normally. That is not the case.

This analogy fails. First of all, the bonus to Hide does nothing if you aren't using Hide.

Second, from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility):

An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision.

And also:

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

If the invisible creature is not actively using Hide, you have to Spot it. Not because it gets a Hide bonus, but because the invisibility rules say so.

John Longarrow

2014-05-05, 01:36 PM

You are incorrect. The feat says "When you hide," not "When you make a Hide check." Feats and spells and special abilities which use or otherwise modify checks call out the check as such. To "hide" is just to make yourself difficult to detect, and in game terms, that means using the Hide and/or Move Silently skill to conceal yourself from being detected.

Your claim is that the Hide check sets the DC for a Listen check to detect the creature. Listen is never used to oppose Hide. In addition, saying that if you aren't making a Hide check means that Darkstalker does nothing to help you is like saying that an Invisible creature is fully visible to all other creatures because Invisibility grants either a +20 or +40 bonus to Hide checks, so if they aren't making a check they aren't using that to their advantage and can be seen normally. That is not the case. Making a Hide check is a definite action, but hiding is simply a way of going about your business and can be seen as ambiguously continuous throughout. If you want not to be noticed, even if you aren't making a Hide and Move Silently check, you might still be "hiding."

NettleKid.
Hiding is not "a way of going about your business ". You would need to use the HIDE skill to HIDE.

1) Hide is an action. Please see the HIDE skill. Invisibility is an effect. If you want to ignore the skill and rules, talk to a DM to have them explain it to you.
2) The FEAT Dark Stalker SPECIFIES that you use either a SPOT or LISTEN check. Since the FEAT specifies this, I would recommend you re-read it. The FEAT specifies you either use a SPOT OR LISTEN (which ever has the higher DC)

Please re-read both the FEAT Dark Stalker and the HIDE skill.

torrasque666

2014-05-05, 01:42 PM

You are incorrect. The feat says "When you hide," not "When you make a Hide check." Feats and spells and special abilities which use or otherwise modify checks call out the check as such. To "hide" is just to make yourself difficult to detect, and in game terms, that means using the Hide and/or Move Silently skill to conceal yourself from being detected.

Do you think these through? You just said that while it says "When you hide" rather than "Hide Check" and then go on to say that in game terms, to hide IS to make a Hide Check. See where this goes? From what you just said, to hide is to make a Hide Check.

Your claim is that the Hide check sets the DC for a Listen check to detect the creature. Listen is never used to oppose Hide. In addition, saying that if you aren't making a Hide check means that Darkstalker does nothing to help you is like saying that an Invisible creature is fully visible to all other creatures because Invisibility grants either a +20 or +40 bonus to Hide checks, so if they aren't making a check they aren't using that to their advantage and can be seen normally. That is not the case. Making a Hide check is a definite action, but hiding is simply a way of going about your business and can be seen as ambiguously continuous throughout. If you want not to be noticed, even if you aren't making a Hide and Move Silently check, you might still be "hiding."

Your Listen check is either made against a DC that reflects how quiet the noise is that you might hear, or it is opposed by your target’s Move Silently check.

Notice it says OR. When you are making the Listen check, you are not using in place of Spot, but rather you are trying to hear them as they move. Considering that a Medium/Small creature occupies a 5x5 square, this means that even if they don't "move" on the grid, they still move within their square. Shifting their weight, their breathing, their clothes rubbing together. These are all things that you could hear with a Listen check. It even gives DCs to that effect. A person with a 30ft base can only move 20ft in medium or heavier armor. Moving 10ft(as if hiding) and "trying not to make any noise" has a DC of 5. This same critter trying to move 15ft while unarmored has a DC of 10(why? I dunno.) Point is, while Listen doesn't OPPOSE Hide, it can be used, given a situation, to overcome it.

John Longarrow

2014-05-05, 01:48 PM

torrasque666

2014-05-05, 02:05 PM

torrasque666,

Your right on the money for the MOVE SILENT that most people do with hiding, but the FEAT Dark Stalker also lets you use LISTEN against your HIDE check.

yea, you've got HIDE and MOVE SILENT againsts someones LISTEN if you want to use it well.. Makes it hard if your not a whisper gnome...

Actually I never mentioned a Move Silently Check, but Hide says that you can move at half speed without penalty, and these same speeds are used as an example in the Hide Skill Listing on page 78 of the PHB.

Nettlekid

2014-05-05, 02:43 PM

Are you guys actually arguing that a creature has to use Listen to oppose Hide? Is that what you're saying? Think about how ridiculous you're being.

Vedhin

2014-05-05, 02:47 PM

Are you guys actually arguing that a creature has to use Listen to oppose Hide? Is that what you're saying? Think about how ridiculous you're being.

Yes, yes we are. It's what the rules say. And we're well aware of how ridiculous RAW is-- see the 5 threads documenting the dysfunctions.

torrasque666

2014-05-05, 02:49 PM

Not that it HAS to use it, but it is an alternative method to oppose. There are DCs that, while they don't out right say are for hiding, describe exactly what a creature hiding would do.

5
A person in medium armor walking at a slow pace(10 ft./round) trying not to make any noise.

10
An unarmored person walking at a slow pace
(15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise

These are DCs that would be used to oppose a person who moves while Hiding. Darkstalker says "Whichever is higher" means that if, for whatever reason, the creature hiding has managed to set its DC below 5/10 you would use Listen instead of Spot.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-05-05, 02:59 PM

Darkstalker says they must make a Spot check vs your Hide check, or a Listen check vs your Move Silently check, to detect you, whichever has the higher DC. The DC of a Listen check is determined by Move Silently, not Hide, and the DC of a Spot check is determined by Hide, not Move Silently. You never make Spot checks vs Move Silently, or Listen checks vs Hide. This is only when using one of those special senses to detect them, you make the above check in order to notice them with your blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense, but that doesn't prevent you from making a normal listen check vs their move silently check to notice them just like anyone else can. Failing the check at the higher of the two DCs for Darkstalker only means they thwart your blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense.

Edit: Just to clarify, Darkstalker only thwarts blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. If an opponent is hiding and moving silently, but you have darkvision and they do not have concealment relative to you and their hide check automatically fails, you still need to make a check to use blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense, but you can see them anyway via your normal vision that's not one of those senses, so in that case Darkstalker is irrelevant unless the conditions change. Darkstalker does not allow you to hide from all the senses of an opponent just because they have blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense.

On the topic of overcoming the miss chance, any weapon that can be used to make ranged attacks can have the Seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) property. Make your weapon a +1 Throwing Seeking weapon and you never suffer a miss chance for concealment, though you still need to attack the correct square.

John Longarrow

2014-05-05, 03:00 PM

Are you guys actually arguing that a creature has to use Listen to oppose Hide? Is that what you're saying? Think about how ridiculous you're being.

Nettlekid,
ridiculous is not reading the FEAT. The FEAT specifies SPOT or LISTEN which ever has the higher DC.
Not sure if your using a different game or something, but I've actually read the feat in LoM. If you think that's ridiculous, maybe you'd be better off not trying to make a blind swordsman... :elan:

John Longarrow

2014-05-05, 03:55 PM

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-05-05, 04:00 PM

Biffoniacus_Furiou,

Oddly, Dark Stalker doesn't say ANYTHING about MOVE SILENT. Kinda wierd, but the way it's written it would be a HIDE against either LISTEN or SPOT. I'm guessing they are looking at some of the blind creatures that have blindsight/tremor sense and using LISTEN (a skill they probably have some ranks in).

In all, its a poorly written feat.

Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm)
Your Move Silently check is opposed by the Listen check of anyone who might hear you. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/moveSilently.htm)

You're suggesting that someone trying to detect a creature with Darkstalker can use either Listen or Spot, whichever has the higher DC, to oppose the Darkstalker character's Hide check. How would those two skill checks have different DCs if they're both against the same Hide check?

Furthermore, the feat's Normal section which describes the exceptions the feat makes to the normal rules makes no mention of using Listen to oppose a Hide check. The core rules regarding those skills are not overridden by the feat, despite is poor wording.

Vedhin

2014-05-05, 04:04 PM

You're suggesting that someone trying to detect a creature with Darkstalker can use either Listen or Spot, whichever has the higher DC, to oppose the Darkstalker character's Hide check. How would those two skill checks have different DCs if they're both against the same Hide check?

DC modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm), that's how.

Nettlekid

2014-05-05, 04:22 PM

Nettlekid,
ridiculous is not reading the FEAT. The FEAT specifies SPOT or LISTEN which ever has the higher DC.
Not sure if your using a different game or something, but I've actually read the feat in LoM. If you think that's ridiculous, maybe you'd be better off not trying to make a blind swordsman... :elan:

Firstly, stop using that weird capitalization. It's very useful to capitalize certain words when making a distinction between game terms (like supernatural versus Supernatural, hide versus Hide, evil versus Evil, etc) but whatever you're doing isn't that. I'm reading it like your voice is undulating in volume. Stop that. Also the feat is called Darkstalker. Not Dark Stalker. It's one word. You keep telling me that you've read it.

Secondly, it's exactly because the feat remarks upon the use of Spot and Listen that I think it's ridiculous that you're saying it's only a Hide check which is being used as the DC here. Okay, I definitely can see that perhaps from the point of view of the writers, saying "use Spot or Listen" makes sense for creatures using Blindsight that are trying to notice a creature with Darkstalker because many of them may have only ears and no eyes, or something to that effect. But at no point does the feat say that this is a special case where Listen is used as an opposed check against Hide. Because there is no exception made, we default to the normal rules where we use Spot to oppose Hide as usual, and Listen to oppose Move Silently as usual. Because the Blindsighted creature is being told by the feat to make a Listen check, it stands to reason that the creature with Darkstalker should be making a Move Silently check to set the DC for that Listen check. After all, they're hiding, which means they ought to be making Hide and Move Silently checks, as you would if you were hiding. With a lowercase h.