Explaining Bull Rushing with charges.

[Catarang]

I have played melee martial classes a lot in my time as a PC, but I've only ever Bull Rushed maybe once or twice. It always seemed like a situational thing for when I needed to knock someone off a cliff or into a fire or something like that. But now I'm helping a friend spruce up his character's build, and he's been trying to get the most out of the two feats I suggested: Combat Brute and Shock Trooper. Both give great bonuses for power attacking, charging, and bull rushing, but I was wondering what the extent of those bonuses for Bull Rushing actually were. My question is two-fold:

1) Can I Bull Rush on a charge, and still make my attack on it? If I can't, would Pounce somehow allow me to do so. The bonuses given by the two feats mentioned above seem to be mediocre compared to just power attacking on a charge and Kicking in the opponent's face, but could I use the Bull rush to not only push the creature back and gain the bonuses, but also attack with my charge as well?

2) What are some neat ways to use the two feats in conjuncture, and what feats go great with them(in respect to the bull rushing portion of the feats)? The character mentioned before isn't really finished yet, so I'm willing to say anything goes when using those two feats. I just want to know how to get the most out of them, as well as what to pair them with in the future.

Thanks and I look forward to your responses!

[OldTrees1]

Bullrush is one of the options available during an attack action (each attack of opportunity, each standard action attack, and each iterative attack during a full attack). You only get 1 option per attack.

However Bullrush also says "You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit."

So yes you can bullrush at the end of a charge and yes if you have pounce you can bull rush as one or more of your attacks. However I am unsure how your DM will interpret that movement clause.



Sidenote: The Knockback feat lets you do a free Bullrush without moving against anyone you power attack.

[TuggyNE]

Bullrush is one of the options available during an attack action (each attack of opportunity, each standard action attack, and each iterative attack during a full attack).

That's not correct.
You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge.

Pounce does not improve on this, even by letting you make attacks along with the bull rush.

[Catarang]

But my original question wants to know if the rules stating you may use it as part of a charge lets you still get the single attack off that a charge normally gives.

[TuggyNE]

But my original question wants to know if the rules stating you may use it as part of a charge lets you still get the single attack off that a charge normally gives.

Not as far as I can tell.

[Darrin]

But my original question wants to know if the rules stating you may use it as part of a charge lets you still get the single attack off that a charge normally gives.

In the interests of pedantry, the rules don't explicitly state when or how you make the bull rush when you charge. The text for bull rush says "see Charge, below", but all the Charge rules say is:

"Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. Since you can use the momentum of the charge in your favor, you get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. Since a charge is a bit reckless, you also take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above)."

At no point do the rules state that you make the Bull Rush instead of attacking, or that you have to give up the attack to Bull Rush. Nor do they state when the Bull Rush happens, although presumably it would have to start when you're adjacent to your opponent, so you can move into their space as per the Bull Rush rules.

The wording on Pounce may have a little more wiggle-room for literal RAW shenanigans. The exact wording from the MM:

"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack attack-including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability."

The key word there is follow, which could be interpreted to mean that the charge action must be complete before you get the full attack from Pounce. This may mean that the full attack can only happen after you've completed your single melee attack and/or bull rush. Even if you assume that attack/bull rush is an either/or situation, a charge with a bull rush is still a charge, and thus according to Pounce you should be able follow it up with a full attack if your opponent is still within the reach of your weapons.

Note: I don't expect anyone actually plays this way, and if you insist on this sort of literal reading of RAW, you're likely to get books thrown at your head. The general consensus is that the designers intended charging and attacks/bull rush/pounce to be combined into a single full-round action. When you charge an opponent and end the movement portion of the charge, you then get one single melee attack or a single bull rush. If you have pounce, it replaces the single melee attack with a full attack.

[OldTrees1]

That's not correct.

Pounce does not improve on this, even by letting you make attacks along with the bull rush.

Could you explain how you are reading that quote differently than I?

It explains you can do a bull rush "as a standard action" because bull rush is "an attack" (aka an option for the attack action).

[Darrin]

Could you explain how you are reading that quote differently than I?

It explains you can do a bull rush "as a standard action" because bull rush is "an attack" (aka an option for the attack action).

Certain combat maneuvers can be swapped with any attack action, regardless of the action type or how it was triggered. These include trips, disarms, sunders, and grapples. So if you have an attack due to an AoO or high BAB, you can swap your normal melee attacks with a trip/disarm/sunder/grapple.

Bull Rush is different because it specifies a standard action. Thus, you cannot swap it for one of your iterative attacks or an AoO for a Bull Rush. If you decide to Bull Rush in a round, this generally prevents you from making any other kind of attack because all you have left after spending your standard action is a move action.

If you want to Bull Rush on every possible attack, the best way to do that is make sure you're Large-sized and pick up the Knockback feat (Races of Stone).

[OldTrees1]

Certain combat maneuvers can be swapped with any attack action, regardless of the action type or how it was triggered. These include trips, disarms, sunders, and grapples. So if you have an attack due to an AoO or high BAB, you can swap your normal melee attacks with a trip/disarm/sunder/grapple.

Bull Rush is different because it specifies a standard action. Thus, you cannot swap it for one of your iterative attacks or an AoO for a Bull Rush. If you decide to Bull Rush in a round, this generally prevents you from making any other kind of attack because all you have left after spending your standard action is a move action.

If you want to Bull Rush on every possible attack, the best way to do that is make sure you're Large-sized and pick up the Knockback feat (Races of Stone).

That(a mere assertion) did not answer how "as a standard action(an attack) or ..." is different from "as an attack action" and is the same as "as a standard action". When it says "as a standard action(an attack)" that implies to me "as a standard action(as an attack action)".

[TuggyNE]

That(a mere assertion) did not answer how "as a standard action(an attack) or ..." is different from "as an attack action" and is the same as "as a standard action". When it says "as a standard action(an attack)" that implies to me "as a standard action(as an attack action)".

As far as I can tell, it's marking that this special attack, unlike e.g. Aid Another and despite doing no damage, is in fact an attack for various purposes, such as breaking invisibility. Special attacks that can be made in place of regular attacks use a different wording and nowhere mention standard actions at all.

[OldTrees1]

As far as I can tell, it's marking that this special attack, unlike e.g. Aid Another and despite doing no damage, is in fact an attack for various purposes, such as breaking invisibility. Special attacks that can be made in place of regular attacks use a different wording and nowhere mention standard actions at all.

Thank you.