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Drolyt
2014-05-02, 01:22 PM
Introduction
Even though the 3rd edition of Dungeons and Dragons came out 14 years ago now various forums still frequently host discussions (not necessarily friendly) about issues of class balance or how to deal with magic tactics such as scry and die. This is not another one of those discussions. What I hope to do here is start a discussion of what D&D spellcasters actually do in the game world. What should we be imagining when a Wizard casts a spell? This is an important question, because we can't really talk about class balance or high level adventures if we aren't clear on what the characters are actually doing. I'm going to focus on 3.5, but this discussion mostly applies to any version of the game prior to 4th edition. So without further ado, here are some of the things a 20th level Wizard can do:

Transportation
Greater Teleport allows a Wizard travel anywhere in the world within seconds. You might need some divination to set it up, but not if you are familiar with the location. Plane Shift allows the Wizard to explore other planes of existence. Overland Flight allows them to fly all day long. Haste gives Wizards limited super speed. It is hard to overstate how powerful these spells are. Many many challenges cease to be challenges when faced with flight and teleportation. That said, barring teleportation Wizards aren't incredibly fast (although much faster than normal humans). Their flight spells are significantly slower than real world aircraft or even cars, and Haste doesn't let a human Wizard run nearly as fast as a superhero with super-speed. In many ways teleportation more than makes up for this, but teleportation is usually a standard action.

Summoning
Summon Monster IX lets you summon a giant demonic spider several times larger than any living creature in the real world and most buildings (fiendish colossal monstrous spider) or a giant angelic bird of prey that isn't quite that big but is big enough to carry off elephants (celestial roc). That's still much smaller than Godzilla (as is the Tarrasque) but it's certainly nothing to sneeze at. Gate and the various Planar Binding spells allow the calling of much more powerful creatures such as planetars and pit fiends though this can be dangerous. Spell Compendium includes spells that summon small armies of outsiders, such as Heavenly Host, Abyssal Army and Hellish Horde.

Evocation
Fireball is low level but actually pretty awesome. The range is incredible (over a thousand feet at 20th level), the area is about the size of a house, it sets anything flammable on fire and melts metals with low melting points such as gold, copper, lead, and bronze (this sets the temperature of the blast at at least 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, probably much hotter since it melts them instantaneously). In other words a pretty nasty explosion. Oddly however it doesn't get much better from there. Meteor Swarm should be awesome but isn't. I suppose we could just ignore the description and imagine our Wizard firing a swarm of meteors at his enemies but as it stands magical explosions aren't very large scale in D&D. It also isn't clear how powerful higher level spells should be since unlike Fireball most of them don't have real world reference points.

While Disintegrate isn't technically evocation it falls into the "blast" category. It only affects 10 cubic feet of material or one creature, but it completely disintegrates them and for objects it doesn't matter how strong the material is, it can even destroy a Wall of Force. It also has pretty good range, 300 feet at 20th level.

Transformation
With Shapechange a Wizard can take the form of a young adult red or gold dragon (your choice), or in other words a flying reptile approximately the size of an elephant that breathes fire. Or a titan, a human shaped outsider about that size with a heavy load of approximately 18 tons. Or the aforementioned giant angelic bird of prey (though not the giant demonic spider). Or an abyssal greater basilisk. Or most other things you might think of. They can also change their shape once every six seconds or so without interrupting their other actions. And the spell lasts over 3 hours. And they can continue casting other spells in many forms. Also they can cast it on their pet cat for some reason. Polymorph isn't as awesome but can be cast on other people and takes up a lower level spell slot.

Weather
Control Weather is a 7th level spell that allows a Wizard to... control the weather. It is somewhat limited (though this varies considerably depending on which edition you are using) and takes a while to cast but it allows you to either cause or prevent small scale natural disasters. Various other spells have weather themed effects as well.

Invisibility
Invisibility allows a Wizard to become invisible. That's it really. Invisibility is another one of those things that renders many challenges into non-challenges and is just awesome in general. Higher level spells (such as Superior Invisibility from Spell Compendium) make this even better.

Defensive Magic
Wizards have access to a large number of defensive buffs such as Mage Armor, Stoneskin, Protection from Arrows, Protection From Energy, Mind Blank, and Protection from Spells that make them effectively immune to all but the most powerful foes.

Divination
Wizards have access to almost any information they want. Discern Location makes it very hard to hide anything from them. Greater Scrying makes them excellent spies. Analyze Dweomer tells you all about magical effects and items. Contact Other Plane and Legend Lore can get you all kinds of information. So on and so forth.

Necromancy
Animate Dead doesn't give Wizards very large armies, but it can give them fairly big and powerful minions like cloud giant skeletons or zombie dragons (pretty good if using the Draconomicon rules). Create Undead is similar. Obviously Finger of Death allows you to kill someone by pointing at them while Power Word Kill kills with a word and Wail of the Banshee kills up to 20 people at once.

Barriers
Wall of Stone is very useful, either to create or enhance fortifications or to trap enemies (try hacking your way through almost 2 feet of stone sometime). Wall of Force cannot be broken by nonmagical means, which makes Forcecage an excellent spell. Prismatic Wall and Prismatic Sphere are virtually impenetrable. Most spells of this sort are permanent or can be made so.

How fast can Wizards cast?
A Wizard casts a spell every six seconds, more under specific circumstances. Six seconds is not a long amount of time. Go watch a video of a spellcaster from TV or film, count the seconds as they cast spells. Most of them don't cast a spell every six seconds, much less 2 as high level D&D Wizards often do. Another question we might ask is how fast a quickened spell is cast? If a Wizard casts a regular spell in the same round as a quickened spell we can assume the regular spell still takes about six seconds to cast, so the quickened spell must be cast virtually instantaneously. Of course Wizards also have access to spells like Contingency, Celerity, Simbul's Spell Matrix, and freaking Time Stop to further enhance the speed of their casting.

Hit Points
A 20th level Wizard likely has about as many hit points as an Orca Whale. It isn't clear what that means in world, but between all those hit points, various defensive magics, and a bunch of protective magic items Wizards are very hard to kill.

Conclusion
I'll cover more awesome magic in a follow up post, but I think this is enough to begin with. A couple takeaways. First, many iconic characters (Beowulf, Conan, Elric, Gandalf, Aragorn, King Arthur, Robin Hood, etc.) are nowhere near 20th level. This cannot be said enough, but high level D&D characters are much more comparable to mythic heroes, deities, and superheroes than your typical hero from sword and sorcery. Remember that the Queen of the Demonweb Pits module had you storm Lolth's (goddess of the drow) stronghold on the abyss and slay her as low as 10th level! Sure Lolth is a minor deity and for some reason 3e got rid of god slaying as an acceptable adventure but still.

Second is that for a martial character to keep up he has to be pretty awesome. For the most part they aren't. Without magical assistance a 20th level Fighter can't really do much. In AD&D they were at least ridiculously tough and did a ton of damage, but 3e took that away.

Thoughts?

Darkweave31
2014-05-02, 02:44 PM
Whenever I explain higher tier classes to players that are unfamiliar with the system I always state how higher tier isn't necessarily about being able to kill things faster, but how many ways that the character can completely alter the narrative of the traditional campaign.

For example, teleport means that exploration of the wilderness and the adventure of traveling to a location by foot or horse just goes away unless the caster chooses to partake. Divination spells can all but replace the need for gathering information on a target and the roleplay that goes into that. Invisibility spells can make stealth missions trivial. Midnight ambushes are not possible when the entire party is in a dimensional pocket.

High level casters essentially change the way the story is told and alter the course of the narrative in very obvious and meaningful ways. That is the true power of wizards in 3.5 D&D.

Xar Zarath
2014-05-02, 10:42 PM
High level casters essentially change the way the story is told and alter the course of the narrative in very obvious and meaningful ways. That is the true power of wizards in 3.5 D&D.

The day that someone can manage a module/campaign where wizards can coexist with other classes in a game without dumbing things down will be a day of days indeed.

Incanur
2014-05-02, 11:47 PM
First, many iconic characters (Beowulf, Conan, Elric, Gandalf, Aragorn, King Arthur, Robin Hood, etc.) are nowhere near 20th level.

Beowulf and Gandalf don't really work as lower-level D&D characters either. Beowulf is way, way stronger than even your typical fighter 20, while Gandalf literally fought the Balrog for days. Their struggle initially blew up a room by accident and devastated both a mountaintop and nearby mountainside in the end. They don't have the tricks of high-level D&D characters, but in many ways their numbers are higher (excluding high-op games).

P.S. Beowulf has the strength of thirty men in each of his hands. In D&D terms that's about 35 Str per hand assuming 10 Str per man.

ryu
2014-05-02, 11:59 PM
Beowulf and Gandalf don't really work as lower-level D&D characters either. Beowulf is way, way stronger than even your typically fighter 20, while Gandalf literally fought the Balrog for days. Their struggle initially blew up a room by accident and devastated both mountaintop and nearby mountainside in the end. They don't have the tricks of high-level D&D characters, but in many ways their numbers are higher (excluding high-op games).

P.S. Beowulf has the strength of thirty men in each of his hands. In D&D terms that's about 35 Str per hand assuming 10 Str per man.

You say that like either is hard to obtain by high level. Although to be fair at level 20 that combat with the balrog should've been over in a matter seconds, maybe minutes tops.

Incanur
2014-05-03, 12:02 AM
You say that like either is hard to obtain by high level.

Strength like Beowulf's is hard for a non-caster to obtain in D&D, though with templates and whatnot you might be able to manage by or before level 20.


Although to be fair at level 20 that combat with the balrog should've been over in a matter seconds, maybe minutes tops.

By 3.x D&D standards. My point is that Gandalf and many other fantasy characters don't translate into 3.x mechanics. They simply play by different rules. Neither a low-level nor a high-level 3.x character models Gandalf well.

Muggins
2014-05-03, 12:21 AM
I thought Gandalf was a Warblade/Wizard/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage with a really mediocre Intelligence score. In general, most of Lord of the Rings works if you consider it to be a low-op, low-magic world. Legolas is a ranger switch-hitter, the halflings hobbits are various NPC classes, and a Ring of Invisibility needs to be imbued with a soul from hell in order to function.

On-Topic: Curiously, not every book or video relies on the rules of DnD to provide its narrative. Our wizards are usually more powerful than theirs, and their martial classes somehow stand toe-to-toe with spellcasters. Oh well.

Drolyt
2014-05-03, 12:39 AM
Beowulf and Gandalf don't really work as lower-level D&D characters either. Beowulf is way, way stronger than even your typical fighter 20, while Gandalf literally fought the Balrog for days. Their struggle initially blew up a room by accident and devastated both a mountaintop and nearby mountainside in the end. They don't have the tricks of high-level D&D characters, but in many ways their numbers are higher (excluding high-op games).

P.S. Beowulf has the strength of thirty men in each of his hands. In D&D terms that's about 35 Str per hand assuming 10 Str per man.
Beowulf should translate into the Fighter class. The fact that he doesn't is the problem, and what is worse it is trivial for a Wizard to have an even greater strength than that. Gandalf doesn't translate well simply because he doesn't use Vancian casting. The best way to model him in D&D would be an outsider with some spell-like abilities. As for the damage to the mountain, D&D characters have a hard time damaging objects. I'm not really clear why, it isn't consistent with their ability to damage ridiculously huge monsters.

Phelix-Mu
2014-05-03, 01:50 AM
Alright, my two cents is that, while a 20th level wizard should be all kinds of cool (as should every 20th level character in the ideal game), the problem is that any 20th level wizard can be every kind of cool listed in the OP in a single day. I love versatility and big toolboxes, but high tiers really are hyperbolically strong/flexible compared to the baseline melee tank.

Consider the role of wizards in much of fantasy; their role in many stories is more akin to the role of the DM in D&D. Wizards recruit questers, they provide guidance, they manipulate from behind the scenes, and then they hijack the climactic scene in a storm of magical fire and arcane fury. Alright, so only bad DMs do that last bit. But a high level wizard in the game can pretty much rewrite the plot premise of the game in a single session, and may the gods take pity on the DM of a high-op game where one of the high tier players has decisively better system mastery than the DM. I view this as a bit of a problem, especially where only low-op games can really tolerate sizable tier gaps between characters.

Still, playing spellcasters as they are written is fun at many op-levels, and needn't break the game by nature. I'm more in favor of buffing mundanes and melees up to a higher standard and maybe not allowing high tiers (or allowing a gestalt of low tiers for those that stick to low tiers). Things like:

- Free Ancestral Relic mechanic that is non-magical in nature: the character is so badass that they can do awesome stuff. Some of the weapon special abilities would need refluffing, but, hey, refluffing is good fun and generally is easy to use to make a particular campaign more cool and more unique (or unique-feeling).
- Scaling combat feats.
- Floating feats and greater skill tricks that enhance these often lackluster class features that are the underpinning of many a mundane build.

EDIT: Also, I'd also like to note that much literature often has there be some drawback or cost/investment to know or learn or use magic. As it exists in 3e, magic is a perpetually renewable resource that isn't that hard to learn (though being good at it is a different matter), and that really only has upside. Not that I want to saddle the game with some kind of mechanical Curse of the Magi (though such would hardly make high tiers unplayable), I just would like the "price of power" motif to be more than just insubstantial role play fluff and stuff.

Incanur
2014-05-03, 04:09 PM
Gandalf doesn't translate well simply because he doesn't use Vancian casting. The best way to model him in D&D would be an outsider with some spell-like abilities.

He did cast spells in a fashion vaguely similar to D&D on occasion; in his first encounter with the Balrog, they had a spell duel over the door to chamber that resulted in Gandalf speaking a "word of Command" that caused the door to explode, send him flying down a set of stairs, and the whole room to collapse. The mountaintop after his battle with Balrog was so devastated that he couldn't figure out how to get down afterward - which highlights the difference between Tolkien's magic and D&D magic. D&D wizards have lots of mobility tricks starting at level 5 or so. (It's also arguably just a logical inconsistency. You just fought for over a week straight from the depths of the earth to high peak, devastated the peak and nearby mountainside in a battle that looked like a storm from afar, and now you can't get down? You're durable enough to wrestle with a demon for days but you can't handle getting down from the peak without stairs? What the hell?)


As for the damage to the mountain, D&D characters have a hard time damaging objects. I'm not really clear why, it isn't consistent with their ability to damage ridiculously huge monsters.

Martial characters with adamantine weapons and Power Attack can do impressive objects in 3.x - including stone walls. Certain spells can as well, most notably disintegrate, earthquake, and control winds. The latter two spells can significant collateral damage. But that's all higher-level stuff.