Am I going to wipe my party? 3.5

[Brunks]

So I've been a DM for just over a year now so I'm still learning and I'd like some feedback on the encounter I have prepped for my party.

The party:
Lvl 8 Drow sorcerer (CL7, mostly support, benign transposition, glitterdust, wings of cover etc)
Lvl 8 Human Warblade (IHS, the big nukes)
Lvl 8 Warforged fighter (dungeoncrasher, 30-50 damage/round)
Lvl 8 human: Lvl 3 sorcerer Lvl 3 warlock Lvl2 Eldritch theurge (Junk spells but 5d6EB and empower SLA)

The encounter:
Half Fire-elemental (Manual of the Planes p189) Fire Souled (Dragon#314) Aboleth
Reworked feats:
Spell focus: Illusion, Quicken Spell-Like Ability(hypnotic Pattern), Final Strike

The story:
The players uncovered an ancient dwarven hold. Upon reading long forgotten journals they've learned that there was a sinister presence here, corrupting the dwarves. A cult worshipping a new fire god appeared, and people started to disappear, as they do around cultists. The players have decided to end this slumbering evil once and for all.

What they know:
They only skimmed through the journal they found, so they missed some mildly important stuff. What they do know is that there have been a large number of abberations and creatures from the elemental plane of fire. They also know the cave is made largely of obsidian, and know there is volcanic activity.
The creature has thus far only been referred to as a god (it isn't)

Their motivation:
I hinted at large amounts of gold, also there are some goods they need to recover for a quest, although it isn't rquired of them. The sorcerer worships Kossuth and has taken great offense to this would be fire-god.

How they prepared:
They all have some small ammount of fire resistance gear, as well as belts of healing.
I also gave them rings that improve Will saves vs mind affecting, but they haven't bothered identifying them yet.

The terrain:
A crude stone walkway extends out over a large bed of obsidian, with a gold plated shrine glimering in the distance. The shrine has a shallow pit filled with gold and other goodies.
Ofcourse thats all fake. Abolleth put up numerous illusions, walls floors, terrain etc. The floor isn't obsidian, it is lava. The walkway isn't intact, but filled up with illusionairy walls.

The tactics:
I'm hoping one of them will fall through the walkway into the lava. At that point the aboleth (who lives in said lava, aquatic, fire immunity) will use Hypnotic Patern to fascinate the party consuming actions and letting the one who fell burn. The first to break out/resist this will be enslaved.
During this time the aboleth will be behind illusionairy walls (which it can see through)
The enslaved partymember will try to bullrush something in or block the retreat. Depending who is still in the fight the Aboleth will either Bait attacks with projected image while the slave wails at them, or it will cast Wall of Fire to cut of the retreat (placed along the length of the walkway for maximum coverage) After that it will use produce flame to pick off wounded. Finishing with closing in melee for terrible burning death.

The problem:
The campaign thus far has been very focused on building the story of these characters and exploring the world. There have been a fair few times it came down to a single roll wether someone would live or die. Those cases were usually their own fault. I don't want to cause a total party wipe, I like this campaign a lot and like to see it continue.
I think I've dropped enough hints as to the danger this god poses, however: "Its there, so we kill it."
How can I give my players a little bit more of an edge/ warning without mentioning the illusions (if I did that, every single square would be blasted to see if its real.)

I feel like I wrote myself into a corner, and could really use some outside perspective. What are some tips you might have for me?

[Crake]

So I've been a DM for just over a year now so I'm still learning and I'd like some feedback on the encounter I have prepped for my party.

The party:
Lvl 8 Drow sorcerer (CL7, mostly support, benign transposition, glitterdust, wings of cover etc)
Lvl 8 Human Warblade (IHS, the big nukes)
Lvl 8 Warforged fighter (dungeoncrasher, 30-50 damage/round)
Lvl 8 human: Lvl 3 sorcerer Lvl 3 warlock Lvl2 Eldritch theurge (Junk spells but 5d6EB and empower SLA)

The encounter:
Half Fire-elemental (Manual of the Planes p189) Fire Souled (Dragon#314) Aboleth
Reworked feats:
Spell focus: Illusion, Quicken Spell-Like Ability(hypnotic Pattern), Final Strike

The story:
The players uncovered an ancient dwarven hold. Upon reading long forgotten journals they've learned that there was a sinister presence here, corrupting the dwarves. A cult worshipping a new fire god appeared, and people started to disappear, as they do around cultists. The players have decided to end this slumbering evil once and for all.

What they know:
They only skimmed through the journal they found, so they missed some mildly important stuff. What they do know is that there have been a large number of abberations and creatures from the elemental plane of fire. They also know the cave is made largely of obsidian, and know there is volcanic activity.
The creature has thus far only been referred to as a god (it isn't)

Their motivation:
I hinted at large amounts of gold, also there are some goods they need to recover for a quest, although it isn't rquired of them. The sorcerer worships Kossuth and has taken great offense to this would be fire-god.

How they prepared:
They all have some small ammount of fire resistance gear, as well as belts of healing.
I also gave them rings that improve Will saves vs mind affecting, but they haven't bothered identifying them yet.

The terrain:
A crude stone walkway extends out over a large bed of obsidian, with a gold plated shrine glimering in the distance. The shrine has a shallow pit filled with gold and other goodies.
Ofcourse thats all fake. Abolleth put up numerous illusions, walls floors, terrain etc. The floor isn't obsidian, it is lava. The walkway isn't intact, but filled up with illusionairy walls.

The tactics:
I'm hoping one of them will fall through the walkway into the lava. At that point the aboleth (who lives in said lava, aquatic, fire immunity) will use Hypnotic Patern to fascinate the party consuming actions and letting the one who fell burn. The first to break out/resist this will be enslaved.
During this time the aboleth will be behind illusionairy walls (which it can see through)
The enslaved partymember will try to bullrush something in or block the retreat. Depending who is still in the fight the Aboleth will either Bait attacks with projected image while the slave wails at them, or it will cast Wall of Fire to cut of the retreat (placed along the length of the walkway for maximum coverage) After that it will use produce flame to pick off wounded. Finishing with closing in melee for terrible burning death.

The problem:
The campaign thus far has been very focused on building the story of these characters and exploring the world. There have been a fair few times it came down to a single roll wether someone would live or die. Those cases were usually their own fault. I don't want to cause a total party wipe, I like this campaign a lot and like to see it continue.
I think I've dropped enough hints as to the danger this god poses, however: "Its there, so we kill it."
How can I give my players a little bit more of an edge/ warning without mentioning the illusions (if I did that, every single square would be blasted to see if its real.)

I feel like I wrote myself into a corner, and could really use some outside perspective. What are some tips you might have for me?

Have something prepared in-game for resurrection. Like an escape from hell mission, where they break out of hell and find a portal back to the material plane. They'll be gearless, with fiends after them, but at least alive?

I can't say how subtle of obvious your hints were to them, but I also find the attitude of "If it's there, we can kill it, because the DM would never throw an unsurpassable foe at us" mentality a bit annoying, because it's a very meta assumption, so I'd say take this opportunity to make them realise that's not the case.

[Seffbasilisk]

Does the sorcerer have Feather-Fall?

Does anyone in the party have fire immunity?

They're level eight, and attacking something that's powerful enough to portray a God to the locals. They've been warned, and even specific gear'd that they haven't bothered to ID? They're asking for it.

I think you'll lose one, maybe two at worst. I don't think there'll be a wipe, but it will be a challenging encounter.

[AlanBruce]

The party:
Lvl 8 Drow sorcerer (CL7, mostly support, benign transposition, glitterdust, wings of cover etc)
Lvl 8 Human Warblade (IHS, the big nukes)
Lvl 8 Warforged fighter (dungeoncrasher, 30-50 damage/round)
Lvl 8 human: Lvl 3 sorcerer Lvl 3 warlock Lvl2 Eldritch theurge (Junk spells but 5d6EB and empower SLA)

The encounter:
Half Fire-elemental (Manual of the Planes p189) Fire Souled (Dragon#314) Aboleth
Reworked feats:
Spell focus: Illusion, Quicken Spell-Like Ability(hypnotic Pattern), Final Strike


According to the encounter calculator, this should be a "Very Difficult" encounter. The Final Strike feat alone should raise the CR by 1, since if it is killed, it could wipe the party if they are within range.

I would drop some cryptic hints (but not give everything away). They already know it's some "fire god" and will take measures to protect against fire (or at least they should). The rings should be IDed by the casters in the party prior to going in and fighting this guy. By level 8, at least one in the party should have flight on, and the means to cast it on their party members.

The one I see surviving the longest is the drow, because of WoC, which should block a direct attack at him either by the aboleth or a dominated party member.

If you provide some sort of terrain amidst the lava for the party to hop around, they could, in theory, surround the beast and flank it (Aboleths are huge, so there should be enough room to move around his lair)

The aboleth should be played intelligently, using illusions to confuse and diving under the lava if he gets hit too hard.

Alternatively, have you thrown other hooks at them? If they have other places of interest to explore and this one does not demand such urgency, they could leave it for later.

If you have left other hooks for them and they still pursue this quest and do not bother to gather more info (the rings, specifically), then there is nothing to do- play the aboleth as they are portrayed: very intelligently. And proceed to use your aforementioned tactics. When the first PC dies or becomes enslaved, they'll know that retreat is sometimes a better option.

[Brookshw]

It's tough, its nasty, they might die, but its fair. I would definitely pepper the adventure with lots of hints previous victims left before their deaths and be a bit blunt about dropping useful gear. Say they find a skeleton and some belongings at the end of some caved in tunnel, the tattered remains of a journal,...."poor wilhelm, when the fires washed over him and jorgen he burst from the heat. If only he had jorgens ring,...he at least was mostly unscathed. Shame it was lost in x chamber when he was skewered by the y and we fled". If you through out some blunt clues and they ignore them, well, that's how it goes.

[PraxisVetli]

It's tough, its nasty, they might die, but its fair. I would definitely pepper the adventure with lots of hints previous victims left before their deaths and be a bit blunt about dropping useful gear. Say they find a skeleton and some belongings at the end of some caved in tunnel, the tattered remains of a journal,...."poor wilhelm, when the fires washed over him and jorgen he burst from the heat. If only he had jorgens ring,...he at least was mostly unscathed. Shame it was lost in x chamber when he was skewered by the y and we fled". If you through out some blunt clues and they ignore them, well, that's how it goes.

Quoted for truthfulness

[Brunks]

Have something prepared in-game for resurrection. Like an escape from hell mission, where they break out of hell and find a portal back to the material plane. They'll be gearless, with fiends after them, but at least alive?
There is virtually no means to ressurect someone in my campaign world, but perhaps an afterlife adventure would be cool too. Death is not the end.


Does the sorcerer have Feather-Fall?

Does anyone in the party have fire immunity?


No to both of those, but the Drow sorcerer has just leveled, so he might pick something like that.


According to the encounter calculator, this should be a "Very Difficult" encounter. The Final Strike feat alone should raise the CR by 1, since if it is killed, it could wipe the party if they are within range.

Good point, maybe I'll give the feat to some mooks as well, to prepare them for the coming encounter.



If you provide some sort of terrain amidst the lava for the party to hop around, they could, in theory, surround the beast and flank it (Aboleths are huge, so there should be enough room to move around his lair)
This is a great idea, maybe some rocks jutting out. I can't imagine there not being a few "fake" surfaces though...




Alternatively, have you thrown other hooks at them? If they have other places of interest to explore and this one does not demand such urgency, they could leave it for later.

Yea there are other hooks, they are currently escorting a caravan. It stopped to pick up some ores in a mine but only 60% of the order had been filled. The players took it upon themselves to extract the remaining ores (which are currently spread around the dungeon.) It isn't really required they do this, as it is the management at the mine who screwed up here. Regardless the order is now 84% filled, but the caravan is two days behind scheduele.

Other hooks in this town are:
Complete an assassination
Resolve the slave revolts
Retrieve some items from the dungeon, mostly complete but they might think the "Fire-god" has the remaining few. (he only has some of the ore and a ****load of gold)


If you have left other hooks for them and they still pursue this quest and do not bother to gather more info (the rings, specifically), then there is nothing to do- play the aboleth as they are portrayed: very intelligently. And proceed to use your aforementioned tactics. When the first PC dies or becomes enslaved, they'll know that retreat is sometimes a better option.
The drow is usually very good at doing his homework, but their slacking is going to catch up with them now. I'll play it true.


It's tough, its nasty, they might die, but its fair. I would definitely pepper the adventure with lots of hints previous victims left before their deaths and be a bit blunt about dropping useful gear. Say they find a skeleton and some belongings at the end of some caved in tunnel, the tattered remains of a journal,...."poor wilhelm, when the fires washed over him and jorgen he burst from the heat. If only he had jorgens ring,...he at least was mostly unscathed. Shame it was lost in x chamber when he was skewered by the y and we fled". If you through out some blunt clues and they ignore them, well, that's how it goes.
Thanks, I'll be teensy bit more generous with hints and front load some of the loot. Maybe an amulet of water walking would give them more mobility.

Thank you all for the feedback, I'll let you know how it went.

[some guy]

One thing that might save your party is that Mirage Arcana does not include thermal elements. Persistent en Programmed Image do, but they have a shorter duration. If the party tarries a bit after setting off Programmed Image they might notice the sudden increase in heat. Persistent Image has a longer duration, but they might hear the casting of it (the aboleth could cast it after the party sets off a alarm trap, seeing how the aboleth doesn't need to concentrate on it, but they might never set off that trap).

[AlanBruce]

Persistent Image has a longer duration, but they might hear the casting of it (the aboleth could cast it after the party sets off a alarm trap, seeing how the aboleth doesn't need to concentrate on it, but they might never set off that trap).

I believe that the Aboleth's Persistent Image is a SLA (or PLA, if we go by the srd). Therefore, there should be no verbal component in its casting.

[Captnq]

I guess the question should be, Why do you care?

You're the DM. You create the world, the players run amuck in it. If the players blindly seek out a god and kick him in the junk. Smite the crap out of them. Just don't CHEAT. Create the encounter. Create a layer of minions between the PCs and the NPC BBEG, and let the players do what they do. If they're smart, they'll think. If they're are counting on you protecting them. Murder them as hard as the dice will allow.

Just roll the dice in front of them so they know you aren't cheating.