What are Nale's good qualities?

[CaDzilla]

What good qualities did Nale possess? And don't say something snarky like, "an excellent knife depository", or, "good XP for the Order".

[Gift Jeraff]

He seemed to care about Z here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html).

[Cavenskull]

He seemed remarkably committed to his relationship with Sabine. Infidelity did not appear to be among his worse traits.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He seemed remarkably committed to his relationship with Sabine. Infidelity did not appear to be among his worse traits.

Agreed. Nale also seemed to be relatively smart, even if he tended to make overly complex plans.

[Ellye]

He seemed to be true to his companions. I couldn't imagine Nale betraying any of his Linear Guild mates. His love for Sabine, and his friendship with Z and Thog all seemed really sincere.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yes, he was loyal.

[Koo Rehtorb]

He's loyal to Sabine. Not so much Thog.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html

[ti'esar]

As with the others, I'll agree that his ability to form mutually fulfilling emotional attachments with at least some other intelligent beings is a definite positive trait, particularly since his father appears to lack it.

He's also an equal-opportunity employer.

[ChristianSt]

Does "has a pretty awesome twin" count as good quality? :smallconfused:

[Domino Quartz]

Does "has a pretty awesome twin" count as good quality? :smallconfused:

Read the OP.

[Khay]

Nale did oppose greater evils - for selfish reasons, yes, but he did oppose them. Make no mistake, the Empire of Nale wouldn't be a great place to live, but I can't really see it being as soul-crushing as one ruled by Tarquin, or especially Malack.

Nale also demonstrated some small (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0892.html) degree of self-awareness. It's not much, but he knows that what he's doing isn't the best way to go about being evil and ruthless and such - and yet, he keeps doing it. So he does care about something other than, well, being evil, and his petty grudges.

Uh. Apart from that, I've got noth- oh, wait, he paid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html) his associates pretty well. Let's see Xykon do that! Yeah.

... you know, if he hadn't stated otherwise, I'd peg Nale as Chaotic.

[Morty]

The best thing one can say about Nale is that he may not have turned out as such a scumbag if Tarquin hadn't raised him. Other than that, yeah, I got nothing.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

... you know, if he hadn't stated otherwise, I'd peg Nale as Chaotic.
Interesting that you'd say that. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286395-Vigilantism-and-the-Lawful-Alignment-in-OotS&p=15364378&viewfull=1#post15364378)

[Khay]

I took a few moments to thumb through the author's commentaries. The Giant notes that Nale isn't really a whole lot less evil than Xykon, just less powerful (it's in War & XPs, just before #339) which raises all sorts of interesting questions. Did we ever actually learn what his plan for the Gates was? If I'm interpreting the hallucination correctly, it takes over an hour to explain, which would be a record even for Nale.


Interesting that you'd say that. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286395-Vigilantism-and-the-Lawful-Alignment-in-OotS&p=15364378&viewfull=1#post15364378)

That is interesting. Now I wonder, indeed...

[Benthesquid]

Nale is charismatic, charming, and apparently a pretty good boss to work for. He pays well. Whatever his own loyalty to his subordinates, he certainly seems capable of inspiring loyalty in them towards him.

He has moments where he's pretty good at reading people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html). Although in that example, even as he accurately analyzes Xykon and Haley, he's also completely oblivious to Sabine's jealousy, so not always.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I took a few moments to thumb through the author's commentaries. The Giant notes that Nale isn't really a whole lot less evil than Xykon, just less powerful (it's in War & XPs, just before #339) which raises all sorts of interesting questions. Did we ever actually learn what his plan for the Gates was? If I'm interpreting the hallucination correctly, it takes over an hour to explain, which would be a record even for Nale.

I think that while Nale may just as Evil as Xykon, he also has some good qualities that make him not a complete monster, unlike Xykon.

I think his plan could be seemed up as "take over the world", but Nale just took too long to explain it.

[oppyu]

He was a very determined man. You can say a lot about Nale, but you can't say he ever gave up.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, while he may have had a bit of an ego, he could recognize when a scene was not about him, as seen in the Battle of Azure City.

[Cuthalion]

He also was....focused on his plan.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He also was....focused on his plan.

Persistent? Determined?

[RedSand]

Nale is ambitious, competitive and driven; He can't stand the idea of people having more power than him, than being superior to him, which isn't good, but his total unwillingness to back down from what's a pretty big goal(i.e., ruling the friggin' world) is kind of respectable.

Nale is also somewhat indomitable; he's a supremely sore loser, but it never phases him for that long. He's bounces back pretty quickly from most of his losses, and when he does, he's always ready to get back to work.

I think, more than most OotS villains, Nale has the potential to reform into a not-completely-horrible person; I mean, that kinda depends on what kind of hell Rich has devised for the setting, but I think Nale's villainy is something that he does because he's a broken, angry person, in much the same way Miko was, and I'd interested to see what being subjected to the ultimate of all evils did to him.

[DaggerPen]

After meeting Tarquin, I've actually felt really bad for Nale. While it does seem like he might have a bit of a natural sadistic streak, I feel like if his mother had managed to keep both twins after all, he'd probably be a pretty decent person, if possibly a bit of a jealous jerk now and again. Nale kind of strikes me as someone with a really natural Chaotic bent trying to be Lawful because it's a way to show up his father, and I figure if he was raised by his mother, he'd probably actually be somewhat Haleyesque - Chaotic Good, but occasionally faltering towards Neutral, plus with a real snarky edge that just feels like part of him.

Basically, I guess one of the best things I can say about Nale is that... he may have been kind of a terrible person, and he certainly had free will and all, but he was in the end just another one of Tarquin's victims, from the moment he got custody to the moment of his death. His ability to inspire loyalty, commitment in romantic relationships and quite possibly loyalty to his team were solid qualities, and if things had been different, he'd probably have been a pretty good team leader. Given, uh, given a second-in-command who can help him dial back on the complicated plots a bit.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Absolutely agreed.

I think Nale may be my favorite antagonist, as far as his character goes. Honestly, I was quite shocked (and saddened) by his death.

[Dr.Epic]

He's loyal to Sabine. Not so much Thog.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html

To be fair, Thog is a mid level barbarian. For all we know, he could just shrug it off.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To be fair, Thog is a mid level barbarian. For all we know, he could just shrug it off.

Well, "find new fighter for afterwords" shows that Nale wasn't predicting that.

[Dr.Epic]

Well, "find new fighter for afterwords" shows that Nale wasn't predicting that.

Exactly! Thog is a barbarian.:smallwink:

[Keltest]

Exactly! Thog is a barbarian.:smallwink:

iirc, Nale is the one with the most fighter levels...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Exactly! Thog is a barbarian.:smallwink:

With levels in fighter. Plus, fighter has definitions outside the Class, you know.

[Guancyto]

He makes plans that will just blow you away.

I mean damn, the opposition just disintegrates in the face of his brilliance.

And he takes good care of himself! He has to be the lightest he's ever been.

But seriously, the key with Nale is that he absolutely does not know when to let go. If you've seen Avatar, Prince Zuko absolutely has a lot of the same traits, the only difference (and the thing that makes Zuko sympathetic and Nale not) is that Zuko is totally lacking Nale's sadistic streak.

[ORione]

What good qualities did Nale possess? And don't say something snarky like, "an excellent knife depository", or, "good XP for the Order".

That would be ridiculous, anyway.

Tarquin got XP from Nale, not the order.

I'd contribute something more constructive to this thread, but others have made all of the points I can think of on the subject.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That would be ridiculous, anyway.

Tarquin got XP from Nale, not the order.

Chances are they got XP each time they defeated him. You don't have to kill someone to get XP

[ReaderAt2046]

Nale was fairly loyal to his subordinates and companions. He was also a decent strategist (he several times outmaneuvered the Order, only to be thwarted by perfectly timed natural twenties, one literal Deus Ex Machina, and other improbable events).

[ORione]

Chances are they got XP each time they defeated him. You don't have to kill someone to get XP

Oh, yeah, you're right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html).

That strip also shows a couple of exceptions to the part about Nale inspiring loyalty. Although Nale and Haley both agree that he has that quality.

[JessmanCA]

Able to grow facial hair
Had friends
Decent in combat

[Sunken Valley]

He was a good leader and strategist. His people listened to his every command (even Z) His plans mostly worked with only things he hadn't considered disrupting them (Haley rolling a 20, Haley confessing her love for Elan, Malack, Tarquin choosing Malack over him).

[DaggerPen]

I suppose he did free three souls from eternal imprisonment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html). Morality of killing vampire spawn who would have had free will but were likely kept as thralls but were negative energy beings whose existence depended on imprisoning souls not being discussed, we're focusing on positives here.

[Aolbain]

He was a (mostly) loyal friend and dedicated lover. And when he wasn't obstructed by a compulsion for complexity and childhood traumas he could plan with the best of 'em.

[ti'esar]

I suppose he did free three souls from eternal imprisonment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html). Morality of killing vampire spawn who would have had free will but were likely kept as thralls but were negative energy beings whose existence depended on imprisoning souls not being discussed, we're focusing on positives here.

It's not like he was trying to do good there (unless, maybe, one of those thralls was the reason Nale hated Malack so much - which I doubt). Same reason why killing Malack isn't really a positive, even though it may have done more good for the world then just about anything the Order's done so far.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I suppose he did free three souls from eternal imprisonment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html). Morality of killing vampire spawn who would have had free will but were likely kept as thralls but were negative energy beings whose existence depended on imprisoning souls not being discussed, we're focusing on positives here.

I'm not sure that's much of a quality though. It's not like he made it a point to free any souls trapped unwillingly, it was just a part of his attempted takeover.

[StreetUrchin]

He shares at one essential quality with a good goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html)


....yeah couldn't resist...carry on

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He shares at one essential quality with a good goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html)


....yeah couldn't resist...carry on

Yeah know, considering how many zombie goblins Xykon has, I always found that statement to be really funny and a little silly when you think about it.

[StreetUrchin]

Yeah know, considering how many zombie goblins Xykon has, I always found that statement to be really funny and a little silly when you think about it.

Dead vs. Undead for their state of existence. Though, in hindsight they should have had a little bonfire before they left.

Oh well, At least Xykon knows how to appreciate a good goblin....

[Themrys]

Nale is really determined. I would have given up after failing so often. He didn't.

Also, that plan to take Elan's place was quite brilliant. It could have worked. (Actually, it should have worked even better, since identical twins don't actually smell differently, so Belkar shouldn't have got in the way.)

And he's tolerant towards homosexuals, although that seems to be a given in OotS-verse.

He is loyal to Sabine. I think that's his most redeeming trait, even though she is an evil succubus. The lack of sexism and other -isms is probably due to his living in OotS-verse.

[Sylian]

I suppose he did free three souls from eternal imprisonment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html). Morality of killing vampire spawn who would have had free will but were likely kept as thralls but were negative energy beings whose existence depended on imprisoning souls not being discussed, we're focusing on positives here.Potentially four, if you count Malack, unless Malack and the shaman had merged, or something.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Dead vs. Undead for their state of existence.

I know, I just like making jokes about how the term dead can get confusing in a world with all sorts of undead. I love Eugene's strips were he talks about that.

[DaggerPen]

Nale is really determined. I would have given up after failing so often. He didn't.

Also, that plan to take Elan's place was quite brilliant. It could have worked. (Actually, it should have worked even better, since identical twins don't actually smell differently, so Belkar shouldn't have got in the way.)

And he's tolerant towards homosexuals, although that seems to be a given in OotS-verse.

He is loyal to Sabine. I think that's his most redeeming trait, even though she is an evil succubus. The lack of sexism and other -isms is probably due to his living in OotS-verse.

Given his father, lack of sexism isn't really a given, actually, so that's a thing.


Potentially four, if you count Malack, unless Malack and the shaman had merged, or something.

Oh, good point.

[Ramien]

He's got style. I'd even say he's got more style than Tarquin. Tarquin cribbed a lot of his off the Evil Overlord's List and Star Wars.

He's also the only one of Tarquin's blood to actually be a leader in their own right - not deluding himself like Tarquin does.

He's also still civilized. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)

[Amphiox]

Well, he was true to his own convictions, even to the end.

He should have been smart enough to figure out that sucking up to his father at the end, even insincerely, was the safest course of action for him, and he chose not to do so.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He's also still civilized. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)

This is a very important point and shouldn't be forgotten.

[Killer Angel]

The mere fact that he openly refused Tarquin's final offer, counts definitely as a positive aspect.

[Keltest]

The mere fact that he openly refused Tarquin's final offer, counts definitely as a positive aspect.

unless you consider it to be in "too dumb to live" territory.

[Benthesquid]

unless you consider it to be in "too dumb to live" territory.

Too dumb to live, or too good for this world?

It's the first one.

[Keltest]

Too dumb to live, or too good for this world?

It's the first one.

depends. If it gets him killed, he was dumb. If it doesn't, but he dies later, he was too good.

[Kish]

From a strictly consequentialist viewpoint, Nale accomplished far more good than anyone else in the entire comic. His destruction of Malack, ignoring the fact that his motivations for doing it were completely self-serving, saved an entire continent from being turned into a sapient-being cattle farm.

[Khay]

From a strictly consequentialist viewpoint, Nale accomplished far more good than anyone else in the entire comic. His destruction of Malack, ignoring the fact that his motivations for doing it were completely self-serving, saved an entire continent from being turned into a sapient-being cattle farm.

I would find it endlessly amusing if this ended up pushing Nale's alignment juuuuuust barely into (a very dark shade of) Chaotic Neutral.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I would find it endlessly amusing if this ended up pushing Nale's alignment juuuuuust barely into (a very dark shade of) Chaotic Neutral.

It would be interesting, but I find it unlikely. The people in charge of this sort of thing seem to look at intent more than effect.

[Killer Angel]

unless you consider it to be in "too dumb to live" territory.

That was exactly Tarquin's judgement on that behaviour. It was viewed negatively by an evil and amoral person. :smallamused:

[DaggerPen]

You know, reading back over that scene, I don't think it counts as "too dumb to live." There's a difference between colossally poor decision-making and being frustrated enough with a lifetime of dealing with Tarquin to lash out, and damn the consequences. It was not the most well-reasoned decision, but spiting Tarquin on principle is something that, after reading that whole arc, I can totally understand, forseeable though the end result may have been.

[Amphiox]

From a strictly consequentialist viewpoint, Nale accomplished far more good than anyone else in the entire comic. His destruction of Malack, ignoring the fact that his motivations for doing it were completely self-serving, saved an entire continent from being turned into a sapient-being cattle farm.

That really depends on just how likely Malack was going to be at succeeding in his plan if Nale had not dusted him. From a narrative standpoint, Malack was a dead vamp walking from the moment he turned Durkon, and if it were not for Nale, it would have been Roy's Greenhilt sword, or V's Dispel Magic/Sunburst or something else combo, or Xykon with a your plans are too slow meteor swarm, or something....

[Khay]

It would be interesting, but I find it unlikely. The people in charge of this sort of thing seem to look at intent more than effect.

Yeah, I can't really see it as a realistic possibility. Though I suppose it depends on how the Lawful Evil afterlife handles those things. Would one attempt to argue to get OUT of that afterlife? Do they even WANT souls down there that aren't genuinely evil? (Honestly, the afterlives are all sorts of weird in general. Could one theoretically avoid "the great fire down below" by swearing an impossible-to-fulfill blood oath of vengeance? The lawful good afterlife let Roy in despite the outstanding oath, but...)

[oppyu]

And he's tolerant towards homosexuals, although that seems to be a given in OotS-verse.

Eh? How can Nale be shown to be tolerant to homosexuals when there he has literally not interacted with any homosexual characters whatsoever, because the closest thing to a gay character in the narrative is the demonic Evil incarnation of illicit sex? (Note: There is enough boomerang bigotry in the world that him experimenting with Sabine does not automatically qualify him as tolerant of homosexuals. Especially since in that context he was struggling with his urge to loudly assert that he is, in fact, heterosexual, and not one of those darn homosexuals.)

[ORione]

Yeah, I can't really see it as a realistic possibility. Though I suppose it depends on how the Lawful Evil afterlife handles those things. Would one attempt to argue to get OUT of that afterlife? Do they even WANT souls down there that aren't genuinely evil? (Honestly, the afterlives are all sorts of weird in general. Could one theoretically avoid "the great fire down below" by swearing an impossible-to-fulfill blood oath of vengeance? The lawful good afterlife let Roy in despite the outstanding oath, but...)

Eugene wasn't let in as a punishment, and not being let into the LE afterlife wouldn't really be a punishment. I think they would've let him in.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, I can't really see it as a realistic possibility. Though I suppose it depends on how the Lawful Evil afterlife handles those things. Would one attempt to argue to get OUT of that afterlife? Do they even WANT souls down there that aren't genuinely evil? (Honestly, the afterlives are all sorts of weird in general. Could one theoretically avoid "the great fire down below" by swearing an impossible-to-fulfill blood oath of vengeance? The lawful good afterlife let Roy in despite the outstanding oath, but...)
I think the lower planes might welcome the sort of people willing to swear a blood oath of vengeance, actually. The D&D afterlife is a little odd, and when you look closely at it it starts to make very little sense.

[Keltest]

Eh? How can Nale be shown to be tolerant to homosexuals when there he has literally not interacted with any homosexual characters whatsoever, because the closest thing to a gay character in the narrative is the demonic Evil incarnation of illicit sex? (Note: There is enough boomerang bigotry in the world that him experimenting with Sabine does not automatically qualify him as tolerant of homosexuals. Especially since in that context he was struggling with his urge to loudly assert that he is, in fact, heterosexual, and not one of those darn homosexuals.)

Not true. There has in fact (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) been one homosexual.

[DaggerPen]

That really depends on just how likely Malack was going to be at succeeding in his plan if Nale had not dusted him. From a narrative standpoint, Malack was a dead vamp walking from the moment he turned Durkon, and if it were not for Nale, it would have been Roy's Greenhilt sword, or V's Dispel Magic/Sunburst or something else combo, or Xykon with a your plans are too slow meteor swarm, or something....

Technically speaking, all vampires are dead vamps walking. :smalltongue:

Yes, I know, we just did this upthread.

[oppyu]

Not true. There has in fact (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) been one homosexual.
He's a one-strip joke. He's about of much as a character as Hobgoblin Cleric #2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html).

[Keltest]

He's a one-strip joke. He's about of much as a character as Hobgoblin Cleric #2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html).

He nearly has a name! Even if he never shows up again, he has more of an identifier than every other nameless background character!

[evileeyore]

What good qualities did Nale possess? And don't say something snarky like, "an excellent knife depository", or, "good XP for the Order".

He's dead.





You can weigh 'good qualities' your way, I weigh it mine.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He's dead.





You can weigh 'good qualities' your way, I weigh it mine.
That's kind of counter to the purpose of this thread, and also doesn't really answer the OP's question, since they were asking what qualities he possesses before his death, hence the "did" in their question.

[Killer Angel]

I would also add that he was very good at improvising (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html).

[Ron Miel]

He seemed to be true to his companions. I couldn't imagine Nale betraying any of his Linear Guild mates. His love for Sabine, and his friendship with Z and Thog all seemed really sincere.


Nale was fairly loyal to his subordinates and companions. He was also a decent strategist (he several times outmaneuvered the Order, only to be thwarted by perfectly timed natural twenties, one literal Deus Ex Machina, and other improbable events).

Are we reading the same strip? Apart from the already mentioned roadrunner device, with an 84% chance of killing Thog, Nale also abandoned Thog to prison (death penalty, maybe) in order to get Elan. He's no more loyal to his minions than Xykon.

[ORione]

Are we reading the same strip? Apart from the already mentioned roadrunner device, with an 84% chance of killing Thog, Nale also abandoned Thog to prison (death penalty, maybe) in order to get Elan. He's no more loyal to his minions than Xykon.

I think the main reasoning behind this view is his reaction to HPoH killing Z'zdtri (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html).

[Kish]

That really depends on just how likely Malack was going to be at succeeding in his plan if Nale had not dusted him. From a narrative standpoint, Malack was a dead vamp walking from the moment he turned Durkon, and if it were not for Nale, it would have been Roy's Greenhilt sword, or V's Dispel Magic/Sunburst or something else combo, or Xykon with a your plans are too slow meteor swarm, or something....
If you look at it that story-externally, Nale was nothing but an arrangement of ink and the question is meaningless. He has no more (or less) good qualities than the arrangement of ink known as Roy, which will not destroy the arrangement of ink known as Xykon since no one but Rich Burlew destroys any of them.

[Keltest]

If you look at it that story-externally, Nale was nothing but an arrangement of ink and the question is meaningless. He has no more (or less) good qualities than the arrangement of ink known as Roy, which will not destroy the arrangement of ink known as Xykon since no one but Rich Burlew destroys any of them.

I think you misunderstood. Malack stood no chance for the same reason Loki could never come out on top in the Avengers: hes set so many people against him personally that with his current level of power, even if he did take over the continent and turn it into a dictatorship for Nergal, he himself would get killed.

[Ron Miel]

Not true. There has in fact (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) been one homosexual.

And a latent bisexual.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Are we reading the same strip? Apart from the already mentioned roadrunner device, with an 84% chance of killing Thog, Nale also abandoned Thog to prison (death penalty, maybe) in order to get Elan. He's no more loyal to his minions than Xykon.
He seems loyal to Sabine and Zz'dtri. Not Thog or Hilgya, though. And at least Nale doesn't go around killing his minions for fun.

[Bulldog Psion]

1. Sheer persistence. The chap was indomitable.

2. Loyalty to Sabine, to some extent to certain of his minions.

3. Fairly smart, though this often turned into "too smart for his own good because of overthinking plans."

4. Quite a bit of courage at times. It took a lot of nerve to pull off that stunt with Malack.

5. Only goatee in the comic that I can recall, so chalk one up for individuality.

I agree with the people who say that Nale was actually a fairly tragic figure, turned into a twisted, bitter, vicious person by dear old Tarquin.

Let's give him an epitaph:

"Here lies Nale Tarquinson, who, though urinated on continuously by Fate from his birth, and hamstrung by his own glaring faults, never gave up, never submitted, and never wavered from the course he chose."

[DaggerPen]

5. Only goatee in the comic that I can recall, so chalk one up for individuality.

Hinjo's got a pretty cool one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hinjo's got a pretty cool one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)

Clearly Hinjo is secretly evil, then!

[Ron Miel]

Hinjo's got a pretty cool one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)

And Girard

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html

[The Pilgrim]

He was the only member of his family who actually managed to become the leader of his own team.

[ORione]

He was the only member of his family who actually managed to become the leader of his own team.

I dunno, his mother clearly has some sort of authority. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

[Cavenskull]

If you look at it that story-externally, Nale was nothing but an arrangement of ink and the question is meaningless. He has no more (or less) good qualities than the arrangement of ink known as Roy, which will not destroy the arrangement of ink known as Xykon since no one but Rich Burlew destroys any of them.

Unless you're talking about certain types of reproductions, neither Nale nor Roy are arrangements of ink. :smallwink:

[Bird]

His silly plans show him to be one of the more imaginative characters in OotS.

His unfavorable multiclassing reveals, I think, a certain lust for life. Combat excites him. Magic excites him. Roguery excites him. While there's something respectable about dedicating yourself to a given class, there's a lot to be said for being open to new experiences and stretching yourself.

It would have been easy for Nale to live his life suckling at his father's teat. He chose to do things on his own, despite (or perhaps because of) the difficulty. He was nobody's toady.

So: "Confidence."

Since he's Elan's twin: extremely good-looking.

He also organized his little band and launched his missions at quite a young age. So: precocious (as you'd expect from someone who had a goatee as an infant).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I went through the thread, and I think we've managed to count up around 12 good qualities about Nale. We had several repeats, but despite those there are still quite a few.

[Dalek Kommander]

He was the only member of his family who actually managed to become the leader of his own team.

Tarquin's team-mates politely and respectfully declined to participate in a completely thankless side-quest, before Tarquin gave them a good enough reason to change their mind. If it only takes that much to prove Tarquin wasn't really a leader, do you know who is even MORE utterly and conclusively proven to not be a leader? Roy. After all, saying Roy has to occasionally deal with objections hardly begins to cover it, Roy deals with a level of sheer, impudent SASS every day that Tarquin would probably cut short with his trusty dagger.

The important thing to note about Tarquin's handling of his team-mates is that once he was finished arguing against their better judgement, they FOLLOWED him after the airship. That demonstrates the very definition of leadership.

[Keltest]

Tarquin's team-mates politely and respectfully declined to participate in a completely thankless side-quest, before Tarquin gave them a good enough reason to change their mind. If it only takes that much to prove Tarquin wasn't really a leader, do you know who is even MORE utterly and conclusively proven to not be a leader? Roy. After all, saying Roy has to occasionally deal with objections hardly begins to cover it, Roy deals with a level of sheer, impudent SASS every day that Tarquin would probably cut short with his trusty dagger.

The important thing to note about Tarquin's handling of his team-mates is that once he was finished arguing against their better judgement, they FOLLOWED him after the airship. That demonstrates the very definition of leadership.

IIRC, Word of Giant is that Tarquin was exaggerating his role in leading his team to Elan. Now, im inclined to agree that based on available in-comic evidence Tarquin is most definitely the leader, but that may just because its his agenda that the others are following while we see them, so they do what he asks them to, and that when they all stand to benefit and have the same goal, someone else leads.

[Dalek Kommander]

IIRC, Word of Giant is that Tarquin was exaggerating his role in leading his team to Elan. Now, im inclined to agree that based on available in-comic evidence Tarquin is most definitely the leader, but that may just because its his agenda that the others are following while we see them, so they do what he asks them to, and that when they all stand to benefit and have the same goal, someone else leads.

Well sure Tarquin exaggerated. NOBODY is as perfect a leader as he gave himself credit for. If Roy ever tried to talked himself up even half as much as Tarquin did, Belkar and/or Haley would make some sassy comment to pop his swelling head. That doesn't mean that Roy or Tarquin aren't leaders, it means their team-mates aren't "just followers", which they easily could have been in the hands of a less skilled writer.

[Keltest]

Well sure Tarquin exaggerated. NOBODY is as perfect a leader as he gave himself credit for. If Roy ever tried to talked himself up even half as much as Tarquin did, Belkar and/or Haley would make some sassy comment to pop his swelling head. That doesn't mean that Roy or Tarquin aren't leaders, it means their team-mates aren't "just followers", which they easily could have been in the hands of a less skilled writer.

Perhaps im misremembering, but Tarquin never really played up his role as leader that I can recall. He would say things like "youre leader of your own team now, just like I was!", but I don't think he had ever seriously played up how key he was to the party's success or anything.

[Dalek Kommander]

Perhaps im misremembering, but Tarquin never really played up his role as leader that I can recall. He would say things like "youre leader of your own team now, just like I was!", but I don't think he had ever seriously played up how key he was to the party's success or anything.

Tarquin's boundless self-assurance was not limited to merely believing he could convince his closest associates to do what he wanted, which arguably wasn't entirely unjustified considering how long they kept doing what he said against their better judgement. What Tarquin could not possibly grasp is that their judgement WAS better than his. He didn't just want them to do what he said... he wanted what he said to be a GOOD IDEA!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The main difference between Roy and Tarquin is that Roy is the declared team leader, and we saw in DStP how well the team functions without him. Until Tarquin is shown as the leader, I wouldn't be certain he is leader.

[Dalek Kommander]

The main difference between Roy and Tarquin is that Roy is the declared team leader, and we saw in DStP how well the team functions without him. Until Tarquin is shown as the leader, I wouldn't be certain he is leader.

Tarquin's leadership is more of an affliction on his teammates, but be that as it may, it's really not disputable that Tarquin led his teammates in the chase after the airship.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Tarquin's leadership is more of an affliction on his teammates, but be that as it may, it's really not disputable that Tarquin led his teammates in the chase after the airship.

I tend to think that that was because it was his side quest and his favors they were working off/for. I actually think the Vector Legion has no leader, it just varies depending on who knows the most about the situation or is calling in favors.

[Keltest]

I tend to think that that was because it was his side quest and his favors they were working off/for. I actually think the Vector Legion has no leader, it just varies depending on who knows the most about the situation or is calling in favors.

That was my assessment as well. It fits with Tarquin exaggerating his role (he wasn't de facto leader) while allowing for him to lead quasi-effectively during this arc.

[snikrept]

Curious about the whole loyal-to-Sabine thing. Is that evidence of a good character trait or just evidence that he got suggestion'd a lot at some time in the past? She *is* a succubus.

When suggestion wears off does the victim start realizing he was previously under an enchantment?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Curious about the whole loyal-to-Sabine thing. Is that evidence of a good character trait or just evidence that he got suggestion'd a lot at some time in the past? She *is* a succubus.

When suggestion wears off does the victim start realizing he was previously under an enchantment?

I don't think the level of concern he has for Sabine could be caused by Suggestion. While Sabine could probably use it to make herself seem more attractive or desirable, I don't think it would inspire the love he seems to have for her. I also think that when Suggestion wore off Nale would question why he was with Sabine, so he definitely loves her. Also, doesn't Nale have a fairly good Will save?

[Rodin]

Nale seems to get a bad rap for his plans, but when you actually look at the plans, they have a remarkable success rate.

...Why no, this isn't an excuse to read old strips for "research" purposes, why do you ask?

Plan A: Steal the amulet of Dorukan. For this he needs 3 people of pure heart to touch the Sigils. He cons the Order into doing it for him, backstabs them as soon as he has it, and makes his escape.

Complexity: Pretty simple - the only complicated bit is getting the Order to touch the Sigils, and that's a required pre-requisite for any of the plan to matter at all.

Successfulness: Total. The plan had concluded and they were making their escape when prophecy/rotten luck intervened to foil the plan. There was no way for Nale to predict it.

Plan B: Distract the Order with a tale about starmetal while the Linear Guild rebuilds.

Complexity: Again, pretty simple. One shapeshifted blacksmith is all it took.

Successfulness: Qualified success. It fulfilled the primary purpose that he was after in getting the Order off his back - the Order goes away and doesn't meet up with the LG until Nale re-initiates contact. On the other hand, the starmetal turns out to be real and still there. Bit of a wash.


Plan C: Kidnap Roy's sister so that the Order can be lured into a trap, such that Elan can be separated from the others and Nale can do the old "twin switcheroo". Also, set up a murder spree so that Elan gets chucked in prison.

Complexity: Very, very complicated. This is the plan that really makes Nale's reputation. There was almost certainly an easier way.

Successfulness: Total. He completes his objective, and even the members of the LG used for the distraction get away clean.

Plan D: Seduce Haley, then stab her in the back once they're alone.

Complexity: Simple.

Successfulness: The plan itself is quite successful - it only fails due to a (lampshaded) Deus Ex Machina, or at least something very close to that. The plans again due to factors entirely out of Nale's control.

Plan E: Beat the Order to Girard's gate by using Penelope to divine it's location.

Complexity: Simple - again, simple shapeshift and a bit of grifting.

Successfulness: Failure, by way of Familicide. He found out that it was in Windy Canyon, though. More circumstances out of his control.

-----------

Nale is actually a pretty good planner. His luck is atrocious. His worst trait is actually that he panics under pressure - when his plans start to fall apart, they fall apart hard because Nale is terrible at improvising.

[DaggerPen]

Nale seems to get a bad rap for his plans, but when you actually look at the plans, they have a remarkable success rate.

...Why no, this isn't an excuse to read old strips for "research" purposes, why do you ask?

Plan A: Steal the amulet of Dorukan. For this he needs 3 people of pure heart to touch the Sigils. He cons the Order into doing it for him, backstabs them as soon as he has it, and makes his escape.

Complexity: Pretty simple - the only complicated bit is getting the Order to touch the Sigils, and that's a required pre-requisite for any of the plan to matter at all.

Successfulness: Total. The plan had concluded and they were making their escape when prophecy/rotten luck intervened to foil the plan. There was no way for Nale to predict it.

Plan B: Distract the Order with a tale about starmetal while the Linear Guild rebuilds.

Complexity: Again, pretty simple. One shapeshifted blacksmith is all it took.

Successfulness: Qualified success. It fulfilled the primary purpose that he was after in getting the Order off his back - the Order goes away and doesn't meet up with the LG until Nale re-initiates contact. On the other hand, the starmetal turns out to be real and still there. Bit of a wash.


Plan C: Kidnap Roy's sister so that the Order can be lured into a trap, such that Elan can be separated from the others and Nale can do the old "twin switcheroo". Also, set up a murder spree so that Elan gets chucked in prison.

Complexity: Very, very complicated. This is the plan that really makes Nale's reputation. There was almost certainly an easier way.

Successfulness: Total. He completes his objective, and even the members of the LG used for the distraction get away clean.

Plan D: Seduce Haley, then stab her in the back once they're alone.

Complexity: Simple.

Successfulness: The plan itself is quite successful - it only fails due to a (lampshaded) Deus Ex Machina, or at least something very close to that. The plans again due to factors entirely out of Nale's control.

Plan E: Beat the Order to Girard's gate by using Penelope to divine it's location.

Complexity: Simple - again, simple shapeshift and a bit of grifting.

Successfulness: Failure, by way of Familicide. He found out that it was in Windy Canyon, though. More circumstances out of his control.

-----------

Nale is actually a pretty good planner. His luck is atrocious. His worst trait is actually that he panics under pressure - when his plans start to fall apart, they fall apart hard because Nale is terrible at improvising.

These are good points. I'd like to add:

Plan F: Remove Malack's Protection from Daylight while he's out in the sun.

Complexity: Reasonably simple. While some prerequisites for the plan - Malack expending his first casting of Protection from Daylight, the destruction of the pyramid, etc. - were based on luck, after seeing those prerequisites were fulfilled, it required nothing but an easily accessible potion of protection from negative energy and a signal to Z.

Successfulness: VERY successful, Malack died easily without much in the way of collateral damage.

Plan G: Recruit Durkon into the Linear Guild.

Complexity: Not particularly complex.

Successfulness: Atrocious, but in fairness, it is possible that Nale had some idea that the dominant vampiric personality was no longer the original, so it was a reasonable enough thing to try.

Plan H: Taunt Tarquin about Malack's death to assert independence.

Complexity: Far, far too simple.

Succesfulness: Yeaaaah...

So all in all, Nale's plans actually aren't too bad as long as he has time to really think them through. Winging it, however, as you mentioned, seems not to work out well for him.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, Nale's luck really is quite atrocious. For Plan A, he was defeated by a lucky roll. For Plan B, there turned out to actually be starmetal in the woods. For Plan C, Elan escaped. For Plan D, Elan intervenes, something Nale couldn't have predicted. For Plan E, he was defeated because Vaarsuvius agreed to a once in a century deal. For Plan Plan F..., well Plan H happened. Plan G was the only one that didn't really seem to fail from bad luck.

[snikrept]

This seems to be pretty standard for fantasy villains. Massive amounts of solid forethought and careful groundwork, foiled by a precise chain of extremely unlikely circumstances at the last moment as the dashing hero, without any prior planning, simply gets lucky again and again and again.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

This seems to be pretty standard for fantasy villains. Massive amounts of solid forethought and careful groundwork, foiled by a precise chain of extremely unlikely circumstances at the last moment as the dashing hero, without any prior planning, simply gets lucky again and again and again.

It's interesting comparing Nale to Xykon. Xykon doesn't really put all that much strategy or effort into things (although he can be clever, like in the Dungeon of Dorukan), but still seems to win in the end. Except in the Dungeon of Dorukan, where he was undone by a fairly lucky (and definitely unplanned) tactic.

[Dalek Kommander]

That was my assessment as well. It fits with Tarquin exaggerating his role (he wasn't de facto leader) while allowing for him to lead quasi-effectively during this arc.

Maybe you should re-read exactly what Rich said:
"If you bought into Tarquin's story that Tarquin was a competent chessmaster when all of the evidence in the comic points to him being a quasi-delusional control freak that needs to be reigned in by one of his allies half the time, that's on you."

Tarquin didn't exaggerate his "role" as a leader, he exaggerated his COMPETENCE as a leader. When Tarquin was urging his teammates to chase after the airship, that would have been a good point to rein him in, but instead they gave in to the leadership of a quasi-delusional control freak who would accept no failure short of a SPECTACULAR one!

I'm not defending the quality of Tarquin's leadership, but I'm flabbergasted that anyone can deny the QUANTITY of his leadership.

[Ramien]

Maybe you should re-read exactly what Rich said:
"If you bought into Tarquin's story that Tarquin was a competent chessmaster when all of the evidence in the comic points to him being a quasi-delusional control freak that needs to be reigned in by one of his allies half the time, that's on you."

Tarquin didn't exaggerate his "role" as a leader, he exaggerated his COMPETENCE as a leader. When Tarquin was urging his teammates to chase after the airship, that would have been a good point to rein him in, but instead they gave in to the leadership of a quasi-delusional control freak who would accept no failure short of a SPECTACULAR one!

I'm not defending the quality of Tarquin's leadership, but I'm flabbergasted that anyone can deny the QUANTITY of his leadership.

Sure they can. All they have to do is agree with Tarquin when he said he was the leader of his group, just like Elan was the leader of his. Elan's not the leader, therefore, maybe Tarquin isn't the leader either.

And considering what he gave up to get Laurin to chase the airship (control of the rift and the valley around it), is it any surprise Laurin agreed?

[snikrept]

It's interesting comparing Nale to Xykon. Xykon doesn't really put all that much strategy or effort into things (although he can be clever, like in the Dungeon of Dorukan), but still seems to win in the end. Except in the Dungeon of Dorukan, where he was undone by a fairly lucky (and definitely unplanned) tactic.

In the scope of that plotline IMO Xykon is a powerful minion and Redcloak is the villain with the classic bucketload of careful plans.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In the scope of that plotline IMO Xykon is a powerful minion and Redcloak is the villain with the classic bucketload of careful plans.
If you're talking about the Dungeon, most of the planning there was done by Xykon. Of you're talking about Azure City, then yes Redcloak did more planning, but Xykon acted pretty much the same.

[Tannhaeuser]

Well, personally, I thought he was one of the funniest characters in The Order of the Stick. Even internally. His "dead-for-a-thousand-years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)" prank on Celia, though cruel (and not even all that mean -- he could have made her suffer a lot longer) was a classic -- and he's willing enough to pay for it. A loser, but a good loser.