Vermin Knight

[PraxisVetli]

So, I've been stumped for a while as to what my next character will be.
I've finally decided, I want to play a Master of Flies, but not sure if Druid is the way to go, or if there's a race that would benefit more. I know Druids easy entry and high powered, but I was actually hoping for something a tad less powerful.
On that note, and slightly contradictory, I wanted to have a mount, something big and fearsome to ride into war on. I don't want a deathdealing mecha-mount, but I do want something that will survive. Currently, courtesy of THIS (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a), I've been thinking the Giant Wasp is the way to go. I see the Mantid's grapple check, and acknowledge it, but the wasp seems....cool, you know? Intimidating.
Is there any tips out here?
edit: focusing on less casting, more "I'm a vermin knight" tanky, mounted build

[WinWin]

Check out the Vermin Keeper class in Underdark. It has one of the few methods available to be able to train vermin, plus many abilities compliment MoF.

As for training vermin, there is the Arachnid Rider Feat and the Vermin Trainer feat, of which Vermin Trainer is superior, but has a race requirement.

For entry to MoF, any shapechanger will grant you entry. So you can qualify with Changeling. An alternate method would be to use the variant lycanthrope, the entomanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a). You could even use another PrC to qualify, such as Arachnomancer (which will also grant you the ability to rebuke/control vermin.

Keep in mind that much of the MoF's utility is size dependant. Finding a method of increasing size, at least to Huge, will increase their potential dramatically. Spells like Venomfire and other +damage riders will increase the efficacy of Swarm damage as you increase in level.

[PraxisVetli]

Check out the Vermin Keeper class in Underdark. It has one of the few methods available to be able to train vermin, plus many abilities compliment MoF.

As for training vermin, there is the Arachnid Rider Feat and the Vermin Trainer feat, of which Vermin Trainer is superior, but has a race requirement.

For entry to MoF, any shapechanger will grant you entry. So you can qualify with Changeling. An alternate method would be to use the variant lycanthrope, the entomanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a). You could even use another PrC to qualify, such as Arachnomancer (which will also grant you the ability to rebuke/control vermin.

Keep in mind that much of the MoF's utility is size dependant. Finding a method of increasing size, at least to Huge, will increase their potential dramatically. Spells like Venomfire and other +damage riders will increase the efficacy of Swarm damage as you increase in level.
Wow, that class is excellent, even lets me keep the higher spell slots.
I had forgotten Entomanthrope, though with this new class advancing casting, I might go Druid, and just keep my spell selection low op.
I definately am taking Vermin Trainer, though the +2 LA on Drow is annoying.


What's your opinion on a good Vermin Mount?

[Yorrin]

My favorite entry to Master of Flies is actually a Changeling with a melee chassis and Warshaper. Something like

Paladin of Tyranny 2/Crusader 2/Warshaper 4/MoF 10
or
Ranger 4/Warshaper 4/MoF 10

using Knowledge Devotion or similar to meet the prereqs in the first case. Both go well with the Vermin Mount idea, imho, as he essentially becomes this vermin-themed knight who uses Swarm Shape if his mounted tactics fail him and/or as a means of escape.

[PraxisVetli]

My favorite entry to Master of Flies is actually a Changeling with a melee chassis and Warshaper. Something like

Paladin of Tyranny 2/Crusader 2/Warshaper 4/MoF 10
or
Ranger 4/Warshaper 4/MoF 10

using Knowledge Devotion or similar to meet the prereqs in the first case. Both go well with the Vermin Mount idea, imho, as he essentially becomes this vermin-themed knight who uses Swarm Shape if his mounted tactics fail him and/or as a means of escape.

This sounds wicked, and brings up a question.
How bad do I want casting? I mean I had assumed I needed it to do what I want, but if I'm just gonna dump swarms everywhere, then maybe I should go full mounted.
What'd be your pick for mount?
They all seem to have they're advantages. Centipedes seem to tend towards high Grapple, Scorpions are just tanks with their three attacks (makes Rend a good option), the Mantid seems good all around, the Wasp is fast.

[Yorrin]

When I'm including a mount in my build I look at two factors: speed and survivability. Because lets face it- you mount is not going to be contributing a lot of damage unless it's the focus of the whole build. And you can use Wild Cohort instead of actual Druid levels if you're going the melee route. So we're looking at the following as solid options for you:

Monstrous Centipede: Bigger the better. Good balance of HD and natural armor. Speed 40.
Monstrous Scorpion: Bigger the better. Less HD and natural armor than a Centipede at the same level with adjustments, but faster.
Wasp: Fast but fragile
Mantis: Like a wasp, but trades speed for some natural armor. Also looks frikkin awesome to ride a giant mantis into battle.
Stag Beetle: Slow but high AC for its level.

So if I were to place them on a continuum from fast to tanky it'd prolly be,
Wasp-Mantis-Scorpion-Centipede-Stag Beetle

with scorpion or centipede being what I'd recommend as a good balance, depending on if you'd want more survivability or speed. But if you want to go full wasp or mantis and you were wise about leaving it out of fights then having a flying mount is always fun for mobility purposes. Also don't forget to pick up the feats from DotU for riding your mounts up the wall if you pick up anything besides scorpion.

[Vaz]

I Like the Centipede. Its Con damaging poison is fantastically useful all over the game.

[WinWin]

Look at utility. A Giant Wasp can fly for example. Giant Spiders have tremorsense and climb. If you take the Vermin Trainer feat, you can apply the Warbeast template to whatever you decide.

As you increase in level, you can probably upgrade by either capturing a more powerful beast, replacing your companion or through the use of magic. I am sure there are planty of insectoid mounts detailed in FR sourcebooks and the like. I tried and failed to find the stats for sword spiders and steeders, both of which featured as mounts in an underdark campaign I played quite some time ago.

[Urpriest]

Master of Flies is really hard to use. All of its swarm forms are based on 3.0 swarm mechanics, so adapting them requires going through and figuring out which 3.5 swarms are balanced in the same roles, and making sure none of the mechanics stop working.

[PraxisVetli]

Look at utility. A Giant Wasp can fly for example. Giant Spiders have tremorsense and climb. If you take the Vermin Trainer feat, you can apply the Warbeast template to whatever you decide.

As you increase in level, you can probably upgrade by either capturing a more powerful beast, replacing your companion or through the use of magic. I am sure there are planty of insectoid mounts detailed in FR sourcebooks and the like. I tried and failed to find the stats for sword spiders and steeders, both of which featured as mounts in an underdark campaign I played quite some time ago.


Master of Flies is really hard to use. All of its swarm forms are based on 3.0 swarm mechanics, so adapting them requires going through and figuring out which 3.5 swarms are balanced in the same roles, and making sure none of the mechanics stop working.

While durability is important, I think I'm more inclined towards a knight-esque character over a caster, which means being able to fly is important.
(And a blackguard-esque guy riding a 25' wasp as it looms up over your city walls is gnarly)
While a Wasp is the most fragile, Warbeast will help.
Will Vermin Keeper's first level let me warbeast vermin?
"Handle Vermin (Ex): At 1st level, a vermin keeper can apply his Handle Animal skill to vermin."
Ftr, Wild Cohirt can't get me a Vermin, it specifically says animal.
which kinda stinks.
Also, I'm not seeing the issue with swarm rules here. Am I missing something?

[PraxisVetli]

Ok, ok, I know double posting is the devils work, but what if I convine my dm that because I took Child of Winter and Vermin Keeper, that I should be able to Awaken my wasp, maybe acquiring it as a cohort?
Or is that a bad plan?


also, shameless self-bump.

[Yorrin]

Ok, ok, I know double posting is the devils work, but what if I convine my dm that because I took Child of Winter and Vermin Keeper, that I should be able to Awaken my wasp, maybe acquiring it as a cohort?
Or is that a bad plan?


also, shameless self-bump.

I'm AFB, but cohort and Wild Cohort/Animal Companion might not be the best interaction, since cohort might put a HD limit on your bug that the other exceeds, making it an ineligible choice. Look out for interactions like that.

[WinWin]

If you just want to be a warrior that rides bugs, you can enter Vermin Keeper as a Wildshape Ranger variant. You gain a Vermin Companion with a few levels of Vermin Keeper and it functions just like an animal companion, but you can pick just about any Vermin creature you like, with a limitation based on it's size. It will gain an intelligence score, as well as any bonus tricks, HD and abilities that an AC normally gets.

If you take this route, you will lose the Animal Companion you gain from your Ranger levels, so you may as well trade that feature away for something like Distracting Attack or an Urban companion (a bug familiar would be thematic).

Round out the build with Wild Plains Outrider, Master of Flies and whatever other tanky/mounted PrC's you like.

If you instead go the Druid route, then Child of Winter will allow you to target Vermin with spells that normally only effect Animals. This lends itself to a more Spellcasting oriented build, however.

[Urpriest]

While durability is important, I think I'm more inclined towards a knight-esque character over a caster, which means being able to fly is important.
(And a blackguard-esque guy riding a 25' wasp as it looms up over your city walls is gnarly)
While a Wasp is the most fragile, Warbeast will help.
Will Vermin Keeper's first level let me warbeast vermin?
"Handle Vermin (Ex): At 1st level, a vermin keeper can apply his Handle Animal skill to vermin."
Ftr, Wild Cohirt can't get me a Vermin, it specifically says animal.
which kinda stinks.
Also, I'm not seeing the issue with swarm rules here. Am I missing something?

Warbeast isn't a verb, it's a noun. You can't turn a preexisting creature into a Warbeast, it has to be born that way, which means it's not a legitimate choice for a companion. (Some people misread the "Training a Warbeast" rules as rules to turn a creature into a warbeast, but they're not, if you compare them to the 3.0 Handle Animal rules you'll see that they're just rules for the DCs to raise a Warbeast and get it to obey commands and wear armor.)

With the swarm rules, take a look at Master of Flies. It's a 3.0 Prestige Class, and it references spells that existed back in 3.0. You may recall that back in 3.0, swarms weren't creatures, instead the various swarm-summoning spells were just another form of battlefield control. Since the spells have changed very dramatically, there's no guarantee that the ability would stay the same, especially since in its current form it doesn't tell you which abilities of the swarm you gain and which you don't, which every ability that turns you into a creature needs to do.

Vermin Keeper itself grants you an ability to turn into swarms at 10th level, so if you're willing to wait you can just use that. The Vermin Shape feat also probably works, IIRC there aren't any restrictions against Wild Shaping into swarms generically, though I may be forgetting something.


Ok, ok, I know double posting is the devils work, but what if I convine my dm that because I took Child of Winter and Vermin Keeper, that I should be able to Awaken my wasp, maybe acquiring it as a cohort?
Or is that a bad plan?


also, shameless self-bump.

Child of Winter itself allows you to Awaken vermin, that's just a basic part of the feat. You don't want to use it on your wasp, though, because then it will be a magical beast and will leave your service. In general, Awaken turns something into a fully sentient version of itself, which means it's no longer your minion, and it doesn't give it an LA so you can't take it as a cohort. The purpose of Awaken is to seed the world with friendly NPCs, not to buff your own minions.

[WinWin]

The swarm shapes are easily updatable. You just turn into multiple contiguous locust or centipede swarms as dictated by the size increase. The rule for a larger than normal swarm is literally as simple as attaching 2 swarms together and requiring that they stay in contact.

The only issue is if you turn into a 'medium sized' swarm, which is actually occupies 1/4 of the space for a normal swarm, a single square, or a 'huge' swarm, which occupies 9 squares. Other sized swarms are easy to manage as they all fit into blocks that are neatly divisible into distinct swarms.

Unlike massive swarms that may occur naturally, you do not track hp seperately for each part because they are all one creature.



Warbeast isn't a verb, it's a noun. You can't turn a preexisting creature into a Warbeast, it has to be born that way, which means it's not a legitimate choice for a companion. (Some people misread the "Training a Warbeast" rules as rules to turn a creature into a warbeast, but they're not, if you compare them to the 3.0 Handle Animal rules you'll see that they're just rules for the DCs to raise a Warbeast and get it to obey commands and wear armor.)

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man. Because the warbeast template comes from domesticating an animal and training it for war, it follows that no wild animal is a warbeast. However, the template includes rules for rearing and training a wild animal as a warbeast. It follows that warbeast is not an inherited template, but an aquired one.

As Vermin Companions retain their Vermin type but are no longer mindless, they are eligable to be trained.



Vermin Keeper itself grants you an ability to turn into swarms at 10th level, so if you're willing to wait you can just use that. The Vermin Shape feat also probably works, IIRC there aren't any restrictions against Wild Shaping into swarms generically, though I may be forgetting something.

You would need a specific exception to the normal Alternate Form rules, I believe. Turning into a spider via wildshape would be permissible, but turning into a spider swarm would require adding a subtype. Then again, Druid can WS into aquatic forms, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Urpriest]

The swarm shapes are easily updatable. You just turn into multiple contiguous locust or centipede swarms as dictated by the size increase. The rule for a larger than normal swarm is literally as simple as attaching 2 swarms together and requiring that they stay in contact.

The only issue is if you turn into a 'medium sized' swarm, which is actually occupies 1/4 of the space for a normal swarm, a single square, or a 'huge' swarm, which occupies 9 squares. Other sized swarms are easy to manage as they all fit into blocks that are neatly divisible into distinct swarms.

Unlike massive swarms that may occur naturally, you do not track hp seperately for each part because they are all one creature.

So do they count as two separate creatures for any other purposes? Targeting and so forth?

And why should it be a different size, instead of just going with the new spell effects?

Is it based on Wild Shape, or on Polymorph, or something else? Do you get the Ex Qualities?




Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man. Because the warbeast template comes from domesticating an animal and training it for war, it follows that no wild animal is a warbeast. However, the template includes rules for rearing and training a wild animal as a warbeast. It follows that warbeast is not an inherited template, but an aquired one.

No, it absolutely does not, read the actual template. It includes rules for rearing and training a warbeast that is based on a wild animal. Specifically, the rules state that it is reared and trained as if it was a wild animal, despite the fact that, as you say, all warbeasts are domestic. That's what "A warbeast can be reared and trained just as the base creature can" means.

Look, you've either heard this argument before, in which case you know your proposal is controversial enough that it has no place in a PO thread, or you haven't, in which case you should google the topic and you'll see this hashed out numerous times. Neither requires arguing about it in this thread.



As Vermin Companions retain their Vermin type but are no longer mindless, they are eligable to be trained.

The Vermin Keeper ones remain mindless.




You would need a specific exception to the normal Alternate Form rules, I believe. Turning into a spider via wildshape would be permissible, but turning into a spider swarm would require adding a subtype. Then again, Druid can WS into aquatic forms, so maybe I'm wrong.

There's nothing that stops you from turning into a creature with a subtype. As you note, Druids can turn into aquatic creatures. So if there is an obstruction it's not that.

[PraxisVetli]

I'm on my way to run some errands, so I'll elaborate more later, but I think I gotta say, I've always read it that you can take a rhino, roll the 20/25+HD handle animal check for two weeks or w/e, and now you've a war rhino.
maybe I'm crazy, but thats really how it seemed to read.
Is it one of those RAW vs. RAI moments?
Although, on the side, wildshape ranger/outlands/mof sounds a lot closer to what I want than my origional concept. Thank You!

[Urpriest]

I'm on my way to run some errands, so I'll elaborate more later, but I think I gotta say, I've always read it that you can take a rhino, roll the 20/25+HD handle animal check for two weeks or w/e, and now you've a war rhino.
maybe I'm crazy, but thats really how it seemed to read.
Is it one of those RAW vs. RAI moments?
Although, on the side, wildshape ranger/outlands/mof sounds a lot closer to what I want than my origional concept. Thank You!

The only reason you think that is because you've seen it described that way on forums. If you read it when it came out in 3.0, without other people having told you it worked that way, you would have seen that it provided rules for rearing and training an existing warbeast, not turning a non-warbeast into a warbeast. Remember, the template description explicitly describes warbeasts as the result of breeding programs, so it's kind of impossible to turn something that wasn't born as a warbeast into one. Anyway, as I said, this is easy to google.

I still think Master of Flies is just not that great for this character, because of all the 3.0->3.5 ambiguities. Vermin Keeper has a similar range of abilities and is more 3.5-friendly. Plus the main draw of Master of Flies is turning into a swarm early, which you might not even need since it sounds like you want to spend most of your time mounted.

[PraxisVetli]

ell, actually, I've not seen it discussed, I came to that conclusion on my own.
but no matter.
And you are correct, I intend to mount my deathbug and charge.
what if I go Cleric/prestige pally into vermin keeper? that way that casting progression isnt wasted. I might only get 4-6th lvl spells, but thats just fine.

Though, I have a question. This means then, that Warbeasts are born warbeasts, then the training is them being raised. Thats fine, kinda explains how the template says it can be applied to vermin, then says vermin are mindless, thus untrainable. Seems contradictory, but with what you're saying, it makes sense. They can be bred, but not trained, right?
So then here's the question. Can I buy a Warbeast Wasp, and thanks to Vermin Keeper, then I can train it?
which really is different means to same ends. Long as I get to ride a Warbeast Wasp.
which I would, right?

[Urpriest]

ell, actually, I've not seen it discussed, I came to that conclusion on my own.
but no matter.
And you are correct, I intend to mount my deathbug and charge.
what if I go Cleric/prestige pally into vermin keeper? that way that casting progression isnt wasted. I might only get 4-6th lvl spells, but thats just fine.

You need Wild Shape for Vermin Keeper, is the problem. That's hard to get without Druid or Wildshape Ranger.



Though, I have a question. This means then, that Warbeasts are born warbeasts, then the training is them being raised. Thats fine, kinda explains how the template says it can be applied to vermin, then says vermin are mindless, thus untrainable. Seems contradictory, but with what you're saying, it makes sense. They can be bred, but not trained, right?
So then here's the question. Can I buy a Warbeast Wasp, and thanks to Vermin Keeper, then I can train it?
which really is different means to same ends. Long as I get to ride a Warbeast Wasp.
which I would, right?

Yeah, you could buy a Warbeast Wasp. Problem is, you can't make it your Vermin Companion, so it's not going to be all that tough.

Thinking in general about this, your real goal is to have a flying vermin mount, preferably a giant wasp, right? And then otherwise be a blackguard-ish mounted combat type?

I can go looking and try to see what the most efficient way to do that is. There's got to be a simpler way than what we're discussing in this thread.

Edit: Question: a Large Monstrous Spider would be way easier to do this with. Is that an option, or are you committed to the Wasp?

[Vaz]

There is Divine Minion Template, but LA+2 for (limited) Wild Shape, and Outsider Type is a lot to ask a DM to say "yes" to, unless you're in a High Power campaign.

Druids do have the Vermin Companion (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a) ACF. Taking a level of Contemplative gets you Competition domain for Divine Power, and Bone Talisman lets you Turn Undead, so qualify for Divine Metamagic to Persist it. Also has Giant Vermin spell. You can replace its Wild Shape with the Swift and Deadly Hunter ACF if that's too strong - but then no Master of Flies. Then you only have its Spell-list with a relatively lower powered spell list to worry about. A Druid/Duskblade Arcane Heirophant could be pretty decent Knight build.

[Urpriest]

In order:

Zhentarim Skymage from Lords of Darkness is basically utterly ridiculous. You can get pretty much any mount from anywhere from it, and it's only based on hit dice and as such wildly cheesable. I would not recommend it unless your DM has a strong stomach, but it's there if you need it.

If you were willing to switch to a Spider, Large Monstrous Spiders are a legal Paladin Mount choice at 6th level, so on a Paladin of Tyranny or the like you've at least got that.

If you do want the Wasp, though, and you don't want to use Skymage cheese, then it looks like you'd need either Vermin Keeper or some form of Animal Companion. There are two ways to get a Vermin Animal Companion, the Vermin Companion feat from ECS and the web enhancement (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a).

Vermin Companion gives you a Wasp the earliest, for four levels of Druid and two feats. The feats also let you do anything which you could normally do to animals to your Wasp, which presumably includes not only buffs but training and the like (since Wild Empathy is included, Handle Animal ought to be as well). Your companion gains Int 1, but no skills or feats. HD-wise, your Wasp has zero bonus HD at 4th, 2 at 6th, 4 at 9th, 6 at 12th, 8 at 15th, and 10 at 18th.

The web enhancement list puts the Wasp at level-6, so you first can get it at 7th level, and it has two fewer HD than the Vermin Companion. Also unlike the Vermin Companion it's treated as a magical beast, you cannot use animal-based spells on it, and it's dumber than the Vermin Companion. It does stay Mindless, though, and it does gain skill points and feats. Otherwise, the main advantage is that you can combine this one with Wild Cohort and thereby not have to take any Druid levels, but you'd be paying even more HD advancement to do so, and Wasps are already kind of fragile.

The advantage to both of the above methods is that they're animal companions, so PrCs that advance companions will advance them. That means you can take Full-BAB PrCs like Prestige Ranger, Beastmaster, Animal Lord, Vadalis Beastkeeper, and Wild Plains Outrider.

Vermin Keeper turns on later (8th level) and gives fewer HD...it's more compact I suppose, but I feel like that's all it has going for it.

While it feels blasphemous, I'd recommend a build that starts with Druid and then ignores casting to boost your mount to the stratosphere. Maybe begin with Druid 5, trade everything you can except the companion, then go for a Beastmaster Dip, followed by Wild Plains Outrider and Vadalis Beastkeeper. There should be enough levels of all of the above so that you end up with BAB +18 by 20th level, along with a level+3 companion, presumably a Vermin Companion Wasp.

[PraxisVetli]

okay, here we go.

You need Wild Shape for Vermin Keeper, is the problem. That's hard to get without Druid or Wildshape Ranger.
Yeah, you could buy a Warbeast Wasp. Problem is, you can't make it your Vermin Companion, so it's not going to be all that tough.

Why can't it be my companion. Can't I buy it, Handle Animal it a few times, then RP it into being my buddy? Especially if I can actually reason with it?

Thinking in general about this, your real goal is to have a flying vermin mount, preferably a giant wasp, right? And then otherwise be a blackguard-ish mounted combat type?
I can go looking and try to see what the most efficient way to do that is. There's got to be a simpler way than what we're discussing in this thread.
Yes, that's exactly what I want. And yes, there has to be, because this is gettin pretty whack.


Edit: Question: a Large Monstrous Spider would be way easier to do this with. Is that an option, or are you committed to the Wasp?
I really would prefer a Wasp, but if I have to Spider, I will.


There is Divine Minion Template, but LA+2 for (limited) Wild Shape, and Outsider Type is a lot to ask a DM to say "yes" to, unless you're in a High Power campaign.

Druids do have the Vermin Companion (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a) ACF. Taking a level of Contemplative gets you Competition domain for Divine Power, and Bone Talisman lets you Turn Undead, so qualify for Divine Metamagic to Persist it. Also has Giant Vermin spell. You can replace its Wild Shape with the Swift and Deadly Hunter ACF if that's too strong - but then no Master of Flies. Then you only have its Spell-list with a relatively lower powered spell list to worry about. A Druid/Duskblade Arcane Heirophant could be pretty decent Knight build.
I will look into this.

In order:

Zhentarim Skymage from Lords of Darkness is basically utterly ridiculous. You can get pretty much any mount from anywhere from it, and it's only based on hit dice and as such wildly cheesable. I would not recommend it unless your DM has a strong stomach, but it's there if you need it.

Well, just because it can be cheesed, doesn't mean I'm obligated to cheese. I usually don't start the cheese war with my DM's.


If you were willing to switch to a Spider, Large Monstrous Spiders are a legal Paladin Mount choice at 6th level, so on a Paladin of Tyranny or the like you've at least got that.

If you do want the Wasp, though, and you don't want to use Skymage cheese, then it looks like you'd need either Vermin Keeper or some form of Animal Companion. There are two ways to get a Vermin Animal Companion, the Vermin Companion feat from ECS and the web enhancement (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a).

Vermin Companion gives you a Wasp the earliest, for four levels of Druid and two feats. The feats also let you do anything which you could normally do to animals to your Wasp, which presumably includes not only buffs but training and the like (since Wild Empathy is included, Handle Animal ought to be as well). Your companion gains Int 1, but no skills or feats. HD-wise, your Wasp has zero bonus HD at 4th, 2 at 6th, 4 at 9th, 6 at 12th, 8 at 15th, and 10 at 18th.

The web enhancement list puts the Wasp at level-6, so you first can get it at 7th level, and it has two fewer HD than the Vermin Companion. Also unlike the Vermin Companion it's treated as a magical beast, you cannot use animal-based spells on it, and it's dumber than the Vermin Companion. It does stay Mindless, though, and it does gain skill points and feats. Otherwise, the main advantage is that you can combine this one with Wild Cohort and thereby not have to take any Druid levels, but you'd be paying even more HD advancement to do so, and Wasps are already kind of fragile.

The advantage to both of the above methods is that they're animal companions, so PrCs that advance companions will advance them. That means you can take Full-BAB PrCs like Prestige Ranger, Beastmaster, Animal Lord, Vadalis Beastkeeper, and Wild Plains Outrider.

Vermin Keeper turns on later (8th level) and gives fewer HD...it's more compact I suppose, but I feel like that's all it has going for it.

While it feels blasphemous, I'd recommend a build that starts with Druid and then ignores casting to boost your mount to the stratosphere. Maybe begin with Druid 5, trade everything you can except the companion, then go for a Beastmaster Dip, followed by Wild Plains Outrider and Vadalis Beastkeeper. There should be enough levels of all of the above so that you end up with BAB +18 by 20th level, along with a level+3 companion, presumably a Vermin Companion Wasp.
I thought you liked blasphemy?
Jokes aside, with all of this, and the earlier suggestion by vaz, Druid does seem like the starting way to go. I'll try to see if I can convince my DM to allow me to trade the Pally's spider for a wasp, but that might work, Druid will work.
...
......
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ok. looked up Zhentarim. Looks like with its CHA necessity, Paladin might be a good idea.
Vadalis might not fly. (most of my DMs are sketchy with anything that has the word Dragonmarked in it)
Wild Plains looks great.
Not sure why I'd dip Beastmaster though, if I get the Wasp from Druid. I don't need two Wasps. Wasp Chariot?
So I think we're looking at Druid4/Wild Plains3
Then I'm not sure where to go from there.

[Urpriest]

okay, here we go.

Why can't it be my companion. Can't I buy it, Handle Animal it a few times, then RP it into being my buddy? Especially if I can actually reason with it?

Oh, there's no problem with it being your buddy. But it won't get any Animal Companion benefits because it's not on the allowed list. Wasp is on the list, Warbeast Wasp is not, and if you could add templates willy-nilly everyone would have Paragon companions, yeah?



Well, just because it can be cheesed, doesn't mean I'm obligated to cheese. I usually don't start the cheese war with my DM's.

I mean sure? I tend to not allow overly cheesable stuff in my games because if I allow class X for you, why not for another player who wants a more powerful companion? But I tend to care a lot about consistency in my rules, and that's not a universal preference.



I thought you liked blasphemy?
Jokes aside, with all of this, and the earlier suggestion by vaz, Druid does seem like the starting way to go. I'll try to see if I can convince my DM to allow me to trade the Pally's spider for a wasp, but that might work, Druid will work.
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ok. looked up Zhentarim. Looks like with its CHA necessity, Paladin might be a good idea.
Vadalis might not fly. (most of my DMs are sketchy with anything that has the word Dragonmarked in it)
Wild Plains looks great.
Not sure why I'd dip Beastmaster though, if I get the Wasp from Druid. I don't need two Wasps. Wasp Chariot?
So I think we're looking at Druid4/Wild Plains3
Then I'm not sure where to go from there.

Beastmaster stacks with Druid for the Animal Companion. You add the effective levels together, and since Beastmaster gives a companion at effective level Beastmaster level +3, that means you get an extra three levels of companion advancement out of that dip.

Wild Plains Outrider can't be taken before 7th level due to its prereqs.

If you can swing the feats, I'd advise Druid 5/Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3. After that, you can do Prestige Ranger if it's allowed, or more Beastmaster (mostly just for BAB and companion advancement, since you don't have a lot of other good choices, it will eventually give you more vermin too). You can also take three more levels of Druid without losing BAB.

[hamishspence]

Arms and Equipment Guide mentions that Large spiders are too low to the ground to be a good mount for Medium creatures.

It provides a few other vermin though - Giant Fireflies, Giant Dragonflies.

[PraxisVetli]

Oh, there's no problem with it being your buddy. But it won't get any Animal Companion benefits because it's not on the allowed list. Wasp is on the list, Warbeast Wasp is not, and if you could add templates willy-nilly everyone would have Paragon companions, yeah?
I suppose. I guess maybe high level had a list "lvl 34 Druid. you may now take a paragon dire tiger" something like that.


I mean sure? I tend to not allow overly cheesable stuff in my games because if I allow class X for you, why not for another player who wants a more powerful companion? But I tend to care a lot about consistency in my rules, and that's not a universal preference.



Beastmaster stacks with Druid for the Animal Companion. You add the effective levels together, and since Beastmaster gives a companion at effective level Beastmaster level +3, that means you get an extra three levels of companion advancement out of that dip.

Wild Plains Outrider can't be taken before 7th level due to its prereqs.

If you can swing the feats, I'd advise Druid 5/Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3. After that, you can do Prestige Ranger if it's allowed, or more Beastmaster (mostly just for BAB and companion advancement, since you don't have a lot of other good choices, it will eventually give you more vermin too). You can also take three more levels of Druid without losing BAB.
I had misread the stacking part of Beastmaster, that's definately useful.