What are all the flaws in Tarquin's "Legend" plan?

[CaDzilla]

Not the continent plan, the plan he had for Elan. What holes are in it?

[Keltest]

you mean besides the part where he deliberately ends it with his own death?

[ti'esar]

...The part where Elan completely rejected it?

[CaDzilla]

you mean besides the part where he deliberately ends it with his own death?


...The part where Elan completely rejected it?

Those are obvious. I mean the little details that make the plan fall apart due to story stuff. For example, father-son conflicts usually end with the evil father not being killed by their son.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The part where it involves Elan?

[Keltest]

Those are obvious. I mean the little details that make the plan fall apart due to story stuff

the plan as expressed was not specific enough to be done in by small details. If this were reality, the flaw would be that it relies on story conventions, but that's a legit thing in this world. I guess the biggest flaw outside of the obvious ones is the possibility that he could be ousted by someone other than Elan.

[Bitzer]

The biggest flaw was that he revealed it to Elan. He should have known that villains who expound upon their diabolical schemes never succeed.

[Keltest]

The biggest flaw was that he revealed it to Elan. He should have known that villains who expound upon their diabolical schemes never succeed.

but the diabolical scheme was that he ultimately didn't succeed... great. Now ive got a headache.

[Sartharina]

1. He explained his plan, dooming it to failure.
2. He explained his plan to a Bard, who also has powerful control over the narrative.
3. The bard's girlfriend has a competent rogue of a father with a chip on his shoulder against Tarquin.
4. Rogues don't play by the rules.
5. He has set up foreshadowing of his downfall from several of his victims, such as a powerful succubus, a freedom fighter leader, and a pair of capable mercenaries that he is completely oblivious to.
6. The Bard he has set himself up against is aware of this foreshadowing, and now knows Tarquin's plan.

He now has empowered enemies capable of taking him down quietly, causing him to die AND stopping him from becoming a legend.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

but the diabolical scheme was that he ultimately didn't succeed... great. Now ive got a headache.

:elan:: First blood: Elan!

[Loreweaver15]

but the diabolical scheme was that he ultimately didn't succeed... great. Now ive got a headache.

Tarquin posits this if/then scenario: If I become a big badass evil overlord, then at some point in the distant future I will be murdered by a hero.

Tarquin, nevertheless, wishes to be a big badass evil overlord, and has decided that being murdered in the distant future by a hero is an acceptable endgame. therefore since he has incorporated it into his plan, being murdered by a hero in the distant future is not a failure condition.

Tarquin's success conditions are: I live like a god for thirty years, and then am murdered by a hero and pass into legend as a big badass evil overlord; or, I live like a god for thirty years, successfully kill that hero I predicted would off me, then live like a god for thirty more years before I arrange my own death via intrepid hero.

A failure condition that Tarquin had not anticipated is: I live like a god for thirty years, and then die an ignominious death that nobody cares about in the long term. The only way to force Tarquin into a failure condition is to drive him to ignominy, perhaps imprisoning him and not giving him his grand death,

[DaggerPen]

Villainous endgame schemes, except in very rare narratives, are doomed to fail in the end.

Tarquin's endgame scheme was to game the system.

He's basically daring the narrative to foil his true plan.

[Rodin]

The biggest flaw in his plan is that he's not in the story he thinks he is.

Tarquin's plan relies on Narrative Causality - that stories work a certain way, and as such must have a certain outcome. The "dying ignominiously to a random dude" isn't something that's likely to happen to the Big Bad Evil Guy.

However, when he made up the plan he was under the wrong assumption, and later fell under a second wrong assumption:

A) That he is the main villain.
B) That Elan is the Hero.

Tarquin was never the main villain - Xykon always was. So the story isn't working for him - it's working against him.

And since Elan isn't the Hero (he's a hero part of an ensemble cast), Tarquin doesn't get top billing that way either.

The result is that Tarquin is completely unprotected by the narrative, which will lead to something nasty happening to him when reality catches up.

[Veya]

His largest flaw? he completelly failed to consider that someone like Xykon exists, if Xykon was bent on world domination on a more traditional manner instead of following the plan, Tarquin perhaps wouldn't even be an evil overlord at this point.

Sure, perhaps the whole Vector Legion(well, what's left of it since Malack's death) could take on Xykon, but Tarquin alone would likelly be utterly and completelly stomped by Xykon in a direct confrontation, and it don't even have to be Xykon, any sufficiently powerful character that didn't like how Tarquin looked at him would be a huge problem to his plan, and instead of ending up as "Tarquin, the legendary overlord.", he would end up as "Tarquin, the dude that got wasted.".

So his flaw would be "Failing to consider other villains that could and/or would oppose him.", in a world like OotSverse, it would be a given they exist.

[Gift Jeraff]

Assuming he'd be killed in public and/or that the details of his death will be told by Elan. And assuming that Elan would kill him in the first place.

[Quezovercoatl]

I think the biggest flaw is that it is incompatible with his method of working in the shadows and using puppet rulers. People aren't going to remember him as The Evil Overlord, they are going to remember him as a flunkey of the Empress Of Blood.

[Mastikator]

He's not openly the ruler, very few know about him. He's obscure, not legendary. Unless he changes this he won't go down in history at all, he'll be forgotten as "The Great Bard Elan's general father Terkan or whatever his name was"

[Smolder]

Tarquin is insane.

Everything he has done since meeting Elan has been self-defeating. If he had just kept his mouth shut and his 200-foot-tall flaming letters to himself, he would already have won.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sure seems like Tarquin could have thought this through better. :smalltongue:

[veti]

Personally, I think the biggest flaw is that the whole thing is a big fat lie. (I've often wondered why people are so willing to take Tarquin, of all people, at his word on this or any other topic...)

"Becoming a legend" is a nice bonus for Tarquin, but it's never been a central part of his plan. That was, pretty much, 93% bull excrement invented for the purpose of "shutting Elan up for the time being". His plan is simply to live like a king for as long as possible. The "legend" line was a way of buying himself several more years (he estimates) before Elan comes back to threaten him again.

And that's why it has the inconsistencies and flaws noted above.

[Keltest]

1. "I want to be famous until the end of time."

2. "I want to lurk invisibly behind the scenes and pull the strings from the safety of being an anonymous servant."

There's enough cognitive dissonance there to drive a whole convention full of logicians into the arms of Hastur.

realistically, its not like it was a well kept secret. Even a group of his Joe Schmoe soldiers know about it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

1. "I want to be famous until the end of time."

2. "I want to lurk invisibly behind the scenes and pull the strings from the safety of being an anonymous servant."

There's enough cognitive dissonance there to drive a whole convention full of logicians into the arms of Hastur.

Like I said, Tarquin might have wanted to think through #1 when he was convincing his group to help him with #2. He's good with narrative (most of the time), but not as good with planning (again, most of the time).

[kgato503]

Having his Chaotic Good son try to fill the Lawful Good hero slot is another one. I mean, think about it. He is/was expecting the hero to follow a set of pre-determined rules, if not out right laws, of story telling. Rules that the hero, in this case, already knew. That would be a Lawful thing. Elan, however, is Chaotic, didn't want to do things that way, and thus the whole plan that Tarquin had for him is pretty much thrown out the window.

On a side note, considering the basis for his divorce from Elan's Mom was incomparable alignments, and considering my above post, I think that Tarquin may have a slight problem understanding that people's actual alignments don't necessarily line up with what he thinks they should be for the story. Just a thought.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Having his Chaotic Good son try to fill the Lawful Good hero slot is another one. I mean, think about it. He is/was expecting the hero to follow a set of pre-determined rules, if not out right laws, of story telling. Rules that the hero, in this case, already knew. That would be a Lawful thing. Elan, however, is Chaotic, didn't want to do things that way, and thus the whole plan that Tarquin had for him is pretty much thrown out the window.

On a side note, considering the basis for his divorce from Elan's Mom was incomparable alignments, and considering my above post, I think that Tarquin may have a slight problem understanding that people's actual alignments don't necessarily line up with what he thinks they should be for the story. Just a thought.

This is a very good point, and I think it's one of the large differences between Tarquin and Elan when it comes to stories. Tarquin thinks that everyone has certain already determined (by him, of course) roles to fill and rules to follow in a story, whereas Elan thinks people can determine where they go and what they do.

[Keltest]

This is a very good point, and I think it's one of the large differences between Tarquin and Elan when it comes to stories. Tarquin thinks that everyone has certain already determined (by him, of course) roles to fill and rules to follow in a story, whereas Elan thinks people can determine where they go and what they do.

to an extent anyway. Elan deliberately thought that Nale was dead because he, as a protagonist, was supposed to assume that until proven otherwise. The difference between Elan and Tarquin is that Elan is willing to break convention if necessary, whereas Tarquin thinks that the convention is the ultimate goal of any story.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

to an extent anyway. Elan deliberately thought that Nale was dead because he, as a protagonist, was supposed to assume that until proven otherwise. The difference between Elan and Tarquin is that Elan is willing to break convention if necessary, whereas Tarquin thinks that the convention is the ultimate goal of any story.

Well, I think that Elan did that because that's how he believes the protagonist should act. If someone else, armed with equal narrative knowledge, was to make the opposite assumption Elan would be fine with that (or wouldn't care), whereas Tarquin would be all "This isn't how these things are done!!"

[Keltest]

Well, I think that Elan did that because that's how he believes the protagonist should act. If someone else, armed with equal narrative knowledge, was to make the opposite assumption Elan would be fine with that (or wouldn't care), whereas Tarquin would be all "This isn't how these things are done!!"

Am I misunderstanding you, or did you just restate what I said as a counterargument?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Am I misunderstanding you, or did you just restate what I said as a counterargument?

I think that it's not as much "willing to break convention" as "doesn't believe that people have to follow convention". Otherwise, we are agreed.

[Ramien]

1. "I want to be famous until the end of time."

2. "I want to lurk invisibly behind the scenes and pull the strings from the safety of being an anonymous servant."

There's enough cognitive dissonance there to drive a whole convention full of logicians into the arms of Hastur.

I think his plan involved the heroes at one point revealing his evil scheme to the world just before the final confrontation. A dramatic reveal like that is always a good reputation booster, after all.

The other possibility is that he's as aware of the 'audience' on the other side of the screen. He's not trying to inspire other OotS-world villains: He wants to inspire all the villains that the reader of the strip create from this point forward, so that every uber-competent villain who works behind the scenes will draw at least some inspiration from his deeds.

[Keltest]

I think that it's not as much "willing to break convention" as "doesn't believe that people have to follow convention". Otherwise, we are agreed.

ok, fair enough. It seems like semantics to me, but I understand your point.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

ok, fair enough. It seems like semantics to me, but I understand your point.

It comes down to the intent. I think we mean the same thing, but the way you.re expressing makes me feel you mean something different from what I mean.

[Keltest]

It comes down to the intent. I think we mean the same thing, but the way you.re expressing makes me feel you mean something different from what I mean.

what I mean is that Elan will follow conventions as his default path, as he is a bard. He no more requires that others do (unless its in their own best interests, as with O-chul, and his "i cant believe I didn't die" jinx, where theres really no reason to tempt fate.) than he requires others to optimize their classes to synergize with him. Moreover, if following convention is obviously detrimental to his/his allies goals, he wont do it, because that's bad, like he did with Scoundrel and his "be a rebel, break the narrative! come save me without getting killed!" message.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

what I mean is that Elan will follow conventions as his default path, as he is a bard. He no more requires that others do (unless its in their own best interests, as with O-chul, and his "i cant believe I didn't die" jinx, where theres really no reason not to tempt fate.) than he requires others to optimize their classes to synergize with him. Moreover, if following convention is obviously detrimental to his/his allies goals, he wont do it, because that's bad, like he did with Scoundrel and his "be a rebel, break the narrative! come save me without getting killed!" message.

Okay, it looks like we are saying the same thing. :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

Okay, it looks like we are saying the same thing. :smallbiggrin:

:elan: Were communicating!

[Amphiox]

Tarquin thinks narrative conventions are laws that must be conformed to. Elan treats them more like guidelines.

One major flaw in Tarquin's plan is that he views Narrative Convention as a set of deterministic laws that allow him to predict the outcomes of stories with certainty, whereas even in the reality of the Stickverse they are probably probabilistic. He forgets that an author deliberately subverting a narrative convention is itself a narrative convention, and inhis plan, the author of his story is going to be Elan.

[Synar]

I think his plan involved the heroes at one point revealing his evil scheme to the world just before the final confrontation. A dramatic reveal like that is always a good reputation booster, after all.

The other possibility is that he's as aware of the 'audience' on the other side of the screen. He's not trying to inspire other OotS-world villains: He wants to inspire all the villains that the reader of the strip create from this point forward, so that every uber-competent villain who works behind the scenes will draw at least some inspiration from his deeds.

I like this :smallbiggrin:. But does this mean he has already won?


Another flaw is that he didn't take in account that the hero letting the vilain die alone and ignoring him to spite him is also a trope. Plus, reverting tropes are also tropes. So basing anything on narrative convention is a bad idea, as not following narrative convention is part of the narrative convention.

But the part where he lived like a king: this was not flawed, it worked :smallamused:.

[Aedilred]

Tarquin thinks narrative conventions are laws that must be conformed to. Elan treats them more like guidelines.

One major flaw in Tarquin's plan is that he views Narrative Convention as a set of deterministic laws that allow him to predict the outcomes of stories with certainty, whereas even in the reality of the Stickverse they are probably probabilistic. He forgets that an author deliberately subverting a narrative convention is itself a narrative convention, and inhis plan, the author of his story is going to be Elan.
Given their respective Law/Chaos alignments, this makes perfect sense.

[tomandtish]

Remember, you can’t trust what he says too much to begin with. The “legend” part of the story seems to come as much from the Father/Son part of the battle that he claims to anticipate. But he didn’t know Elan was going to be there when he started his plan, so how did he know ahead of time that his death will be legendary, especially since he’s the power behind the throne and not the face of power himself?

This seems like another of his con jobs. He’s trying to convince Elan that it is a win/win for him either way and (in typical Tarquin fashion) that he had all this planned out. But he presumably didn’t have being killed by Elan planned out ahead of time, and he’s only a legend if people hear about it. He’s just thinking fast on his feet and using this to keep Elan off-balance.

As for the living like a god part, well, if he’s reached his peak lifestyle, then yes he’s won that part. Only question is how long he can keep it going. But NONE of the rest is a given.

[Rodin]

Remember, you can’t trust what he says too much to begin with. The “legend” part of the story seems to come as much from the Father/Son part of the battle that he claims to anticipate. But he didn’t know Elan was going to be there when he started his plan, so how did he know ahead of time that his death will be legendary, especially since he’s the power behind the throne and not the face of power himself?

This seems like another of his con jobs. He’s trying to convince Elan that it is a win/win for him either way and (in typical Tarquin fashion) that he had all this planned out. But he presumably didn’t have being killed by Elan planned out ahead of time, and he’s only a legend if people hear about it. He’s just thinking fast on his feet and using this to keep Elan off-balance.

As for the living like a god part, well, if he’s reached his peak lifestyle, then yes he’s won that part. Only question is how long he can keep it going. But NONE of the rest is a given.

He didn't plan on Elan being the one to kill him, and never pretended that was the case. His plan was for "some hero" to come along and overthrow him. And that may still happen. He says it himself:

Tarquin: "As long as I go into this accepting the price I may eventually pay, then I win - no matter what actually happens. And hey, I was willing to make that deal when I thought it would be some random peasant schmuck taking me out.

Now, I can really see the big picture - it's YOU, Elan."

------------

Tarquin didn't suspect Elan might be the hero until they actually met.

The problem Tarquin now has is that with the appearance of Elan, he's been introduced into a different story. He was probably on track for his legend plan until Elan happened to show up. Now though, it's anybody's guess whether Elan leaving Tarquin behind will get his plan back on track (since he's no longer part of Elan's story) or whether Tarquin is inextricably linked as a B-list villain.

Personally, I think Tarquin probably could get back on track if he just dropped Elan back out of his life right now, but that isn't going to happen because of Tarquin's incredible ego.

[veti]

The "win condition" that Tarquin flaunts at Elan is based on viewing his life as a whole, from the beginning of his adventuring career to the end. (It doesn't, oddly enough, allow for the Big Fire Below. Maybe he was planning to join Malack? Maybe Malack's staff has another funky power that can restore the soul and envamp the body of the recently dead. We'll probably never know.)

But nobody actually experiences their life like that. Assuming Tarquin is currently 50 years old - the first 50 years of his life are gone. Finished, done. He doesn't get to relive them. So looking back and saying "Yeah, I won back then" is - both silly and hollow. All that counts is victories now and in the future.

And that's what he cares about.

Persuading Elan to stop attacking him - that was a victory. (And, incidentally, it also gives a big clue as to why he cares about Elan in the first place. Because of their relationship, and shared knowledge of stories and tropes, Tarquin reckons he can manipulate Elan better than most anyone else in the world. If he can get Elan to lead or mastermind the opposition to him, at least for a few years - then he's got pretty much a free ride, for as long as other people are dumb enough to follow him.)

Stick a sword in Tarquin, he's done. If you hold back, thinking "but then he WINS!" - that's when he wins.

[RedSand]

The part where his ego assumes he'll be the biggest part of the story?

Seriously, Tarquin is not the linchpin of the Empire that he thinks he is. Even if he was, he's a conspirator. He's never been out in the open. If Elan killed the Empress and then him, the story would be "Hero slays dragon and also her general".

What if Elan goes for him first and then afterwards, they clean up the rest of the VL? He'd be a midpoint, a part of the story that gets glossed over in summary.

Or hell, what if things do go his way, but he dies in a really ignoble or humiliating way? It's not like the villain always ends up a cool badass in these stories. Sometimes, they're regarded as chumps, because they lost and the bards don't favor them.

[Aedilred]

The "win condition" that Tarquin flaunts at Elan is based on viewing his life as a whole, from the beginning of his adventuring career to the end. (It doesn't, oddly enough, allow for the Big Fire Below. Maybe he was planning to join Malack? Maybe Malack's staff has another funky power that can restore the soul and envamp the body of the recently dead. We'll probably never know.)

But nobody actually experiences their life like that. Assuming Tarquin is currently 50 years old - the first 50 years of his life are gone. Finished, done. He doesn't get to relive them. So looking back and saying "Yeah, I won back then" is - both silly and hollow. All that counts is victories now and in the future.

And that's what he cares about.
I'm not so sure. That might be how he views it, but it would seem to be at odds with everything we've seen of him as a character. He's obsessed with narrative. He latches onto Elan - the son he barely knows - because he can see how he fits into the story. He's apparently always struggled with Nale because Nale just doesn't get "it". It's all about method, and journey, and the story he's weaving. The whole time we see him, he's completely calm and collected. Only right at the end does he actually get angry. And he's not angry because Elan's tried to kill him or anything like that, he's annoyed because Elan isn't playing his part properly, he's not following accepted narrative structures, he's trying to subvert, or worse, ignore, the story Tarquin's crafted. His last words in the comic to date aren't bemoaning his son's betrayal or his personal situation - he's no worse off than he was before. He's howling that the story's got messed up, that he doesn't know how to take it forwards, and that it's a terrible ending.

Maybe when he's actually staring death in the face he'll change his mind. But he genuinely does seem to think it's all about how awesome his life has been, and will have been, and what a good story it will make, rather than what he's going to do tomorrow. Besides which, he doesn't really have that much to worry about in the future; he's already just about the most powerful person on the continent and can do what he likes. Chances are he's getting a bit bored and fancies some forthcoming twists in the narrative.

'Course, as you say, if you can kill him and have him be forgotten, then maybe he loses. But if he's remembered - then, yup, he's won, because that was his objective the whole time. And even if not, meh, he had a good life. Not many people in this comic can have had a better one.