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Mexikorn
2014-05-03, 09:22 PM
CLASS: ARSENAL MAGUS - INVOKER


Hit Die: D6
Starting Gold: 2d6 x 10
Alignment: Any Neutral
Restrictions: You can only play Invoker if you start it at lvl 1 or prestige class it from being either a pure wizard or sorcerer.
Only elves, half elves and humans can be Invoker.
Starting Age: complex, at least young adulthood
Base Attack Bonus (BAB): Comparable to a Wizards, very low BAB.
Saving Throws: Also comparable to a Wizards, high Will Saves, low Fortitude and Reflex.
Skill Points: 6 + Int Modifier per level
Class Skills: Appraise, Fly, all Knowledge, Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, Linguistics,
No Armor Proficiency, No Weapon Proficiency

What is Invoker supposed to be:
I hope that most of you who read this, know Dota (2). This is my attempt to put this champion into dnd/pf. The Invoker is an excpetionally prodigous magic user. Full of talent, the Invoker is supposed to be played as a magic user. Unlike wizards and sorcerers he doesn't know any regular arcane spells. Instead (going by original game lore) he draws his spells from scrolls he reads. Where even the most talented peers* have difficulties studying and deciphering scrolls, the Invoker is able to read and use spells written on scrolls in no time. He is no warrior, so he isn't proficient with armor or weaponry. Instead he hurls small fireballs in combat and uses his magical spheres to increase his stats. They are also prerequisite to cast his custom spells as he progresses in levels. Dota Invoker here: http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Invoker
(you can ingame customize Invoker how you want, character and appeareance; he is supposed to be an arrogant, stylish robe wearing snob prodigy with long hear)

*for the sake of simplicity sorcerers and wizards are called the invokers peers


1st Fireball Attack; Read Scrolls; Wex, Quas and Exort; Cast Spells;
2nd Prodigious Mind
3rd Coldsnap, EMP, Sunstrike
4th Upgrade Wex, Quas and Exort
5th Ghost Walk; Alacricity; Forge Spirit;
6th Prodigious Learning;
7th Tornado; Chaos Meteor; Ice Wall
8th Upgrade Wex, Quas and Exort
9th Deafening Blast
10th Longevity; Relation to the Arcane


Fireball Attack:
Starting at lvl 1 the Invoker can make an attack which deals (1d4 + 1/2xclasslevel) dmg.
This attack is treated as though with the reach ability and gives no penalites in melee range.
The Invoker can't use his fireball attack when grappeled.

Read Scrolls:
Invoker is extraordinarily skilled at studying and deciphering scrolls. After 1 day of study he can cast every spell
inscribed in a scroll, unless it is divine or surpasses his peer's* spell casting level by 2 or more.
(level 5 invoker can read scrolls from caster level 1-4, but not 5 or higher and doesn't require any time to read
scrolls of level 1 or 0, deciphering level 0 scrolls instantly requires level 3; spells inscribed into scrolls that are
2 or more spell levels under his peer's spell caster level, as well as level 0 spells, take 1 standard action to read and decipher)
(For the sake of game mechanics, similarily to wizards who prepare their spells you should just meditate over 1 scroll for a
certain time; the next day you will be able to cast the spell you studied as a standard action)

Quas, Wex, Exort:
Invoker constantly has 3 Orbs surrounding him: Quas, Wex, and Exort. (He can choose to have none out of combat)
Each of those orbs can activate (Q,W,E level + Int Modifier) times per day, giving him temporary
bonuses. They are prerequisite to cast his Invoker Spells later on. Invoker can change the
orbs surrounding him 2 times per round of combat, and decide to activate them, as a free action.
(You can change them and decide not to activate them; activating them triggers one of the following stat increases)
(If you have for example Quas, Wex, Wex surrounding you, you can choose to either cast the Ghost Walk or Tornado spell)

Quas: +1 temporary HP per Orb (1/3/5) for 5 rounds
Wex: +5 Move Speed per Orb (5/10/15) for 5 rounds
Exort: +1 Dmg per Orb (1/3/5) on next attack

Cast Spells:
Invoker can cast a total of (1/2xCasterLevel + Int Modifier) per day.
He can neither cast divine spells, nor cast the same spell in two successive rounds.
Invoker spells, as well as spells cast from scrolls count towards the spells expended per day.

Prodigious Mind: +2 Spellcraft, +2 Use Magic Device, +2 Linguistics

Prodigious Learning: + 3 to all Knowledge Skills

Longevity: At 10th level, Invoker no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged.
He is immune to natural diseases and cannot die from natural causes.

Relation to the Arcane: Invoker automically recognizes all arcane spells (equal to a wizards spell casting level + 1)
he is aware of. (scenario: 10th level invoker vs 10th level wizard; the wizard is able to cast spells up to the 5th level spells,
thus the Invoker is able to recognize all arcane spells up to 6th level spells)





Alignment: Any Neutral

Restrictions: Take at lvl 1, Wizard or Sorcerer.
Can't be small, half-orc or sub-race.
(Townsfolk always mistake your name for Karl. You're very arrogant)

Starting Age: complex
Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throws: like Wizards
Hit Die: d6
Starting Gold: like Wizard
Skill Points: 6 + Int Modifier per level (x4 at lvl 1)
Class Skills: all Knowledge, Use Magic Device, Autohypnosis, Decipher Script, Concentration,
No Armor Proficiency, No Weapon Proficiency


1st Read Scrolls; Wex, Quas and Exort; Prodigious Mind; Cast Spells*
2nd Bonus Feat
3rd Coldsnap, EMP, Sunstrike (T1*)
4th
5th Prodigious Learning; (UP W,Q,E)
6th Ghost Walk; Alacricity; Forge Spirit; (T2*)
7th Bonus Feat (UP T1*)
8th
9th Tornado; Chaos Meteor; Ice Wall (T3*)
10th (UP W,Q,E); (UP T2*)(UP T1*)
11th
12th Deafening Blast (T4*)
13th Longevity (UP T3*)(UP T2*)(UP T1*)
14th
15th (UP W,Q,E);
16th (UP T4*)(UP T3*)(UP T2*)
17th Relation to the Arcane
18th
19th (UP T4*)(UP T3*)
20th (UP W,Q,E); (UP All Tiers*)



Quas, Wex, Exort:
Invoker constantly has 3 Orbs surrounding him: Quas, Wex, and Exort. (He can choose to have none)
Each of those orbs can activate (Q,W,E level + Int Modifier) times per day, giving him temporary
bonuses. They are prerequisite to cast his Invoker Spells later on. Invoker can change his the
orbs surrounding him 2 times per action of combat, and decide to activate them, as a free action.

Quas: +1 temporary HP per Orb (1/2/3/4/5) for 5 rounds
Wex: +5 Move Speed per Orb (5/8/11/14/17) for 5 rounds
Exort: +1 Dmg per Orb (1/2/3/4/5) on next attack


Prodigious Mind: +2 Spellcraft, +2 Autohypnosis, +2 Use Magic Device

Prodigious Learning: +2 to all Knowledge Skills

Read Scrolls: After spending 1 day (per spell) studying a scroll, Invoker can cast the spell,
scribed into it. Reading Scrolls does only work with arcane magic. Invoker can not cast spells that
exceed his "peers" (Wizards and Sorcerers) caster level by +2 and doesn't require any time to
decipher scrolls that are -2 spell ranks lower than his "peers" caster level. (level 5 invoker
can read scrolls from caster level 1-4, but not 5 or higher and doesn't require any time to read
scrolls of level 1 or 0, deciphering level 0 scrolls instantly requires level 3)



Cast Spells*: Invoker can cast a total of (1/2xCasterLevel + Int Modifier) per day.
He cannot cast divine spells or cast the same spell two times in a row.



Longevity: Invoker stops aging and preserves a young and lively presence.
He doesn not naturally age and cannot die of old age.

Relation to the Arcane: Invoker automatically recognizes all arcane spells cast.
So I felt like trying myself at character creation, and while I don't write an amazing introduction or explain my idea in detail at this point I want to share my thoughts with you, and I hope for hints on what and how to improve this class. What should be obvious right away is that this class is a ripoff of the Invoker from Dota (2). I haven't thought through the spells yet, they should be somewhat similar to the ingame spells, only customized to fit the appropiate dmg's and D&D mechanics. I'd be glad about every kind of criticism and new ideas, and if anyone wants to try out or playtest my Invoker Class, I'd be glad about that. I'm realistically not gonna do that any time soon :P so I'm only into this Class Creation thingy because I like theory crafting. your's - nerd

EDIT: there is a guidline which I found usefull when thinking of this, but I'm not certain whether linking is allowed here, I will do if someone told me?

Mexikorn
2014-05-05, 03:55 PM
Edited the Starting Post°

Loek
2014-05-06, 06:40 AM
To start with the end: linking is fine, as long as you clearly state what it is you are linking to. (and no commercial/dangerous crap).

As for the rest, the main thing it needs is a proper presentation. Use bold, underline and other layout options to clearly define segments and draw people's attention to the proper elements. Also, putting the class progression into a proper table will also do wonders.



Restrictions: Take at lvl 1, Wizard or Sorcerer.
Can't be small, half-orc or sub-race.
(Townsfolk always mistake your name for Karl. You're very arrogant)
For the purpose of this reply, I'll assume the 3rd line is some form of bad joke. Beyond that, the limitations on size and races (also, define "sub-race" better) seem very arbitrary, please explain them to me.

And the first line is the weirdest of all. So it must be taken at first level, but you must also be a wizard or sorcerer? This combination of requirements can only be fullfilled when you are playing with Gestalt (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Gestalt_Characters) rules.

This type of requirement is usually only found in "alternate class features" which change some of the rules of the class (and at the level) you mentioned. Base classes (which this seems to be) generally have very little to no requirements (usually nothing beyond the occasional alignment requirement).


Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throws: like Wizards
Include these in the table that shows the class features and levels, etc. Also, at the very least, just mention that they have a low BaB progression and their only strong saving throw is will (and not have people look it up instead).


Class Skills: all Knowledge, Use Magic Device, Autohypnosis, Decipher Script, Concentration,
Since your class has 6 + Int skill points per level, this might not be enough class skills (unless you mean for this class to be all sage like and have dozens of knowledge skills).

Generally speaking, include "profession" as a class skill (most classes have it), "spellcraft" (you are a caster after all) and "decipher script" (one of your main class feature is about studying scrolls).


No Armor Proficiency, No Weapon Proficiency
You won't even give them a staff or a dagger? Unless your class is utterly pacifistic or otherwise absolutely not physical, at least give them simple weapons.


Prodigious Mind: +2 Spellcraft, +2 Autohypnosis, +2 Use Magic Device

Prodigious Learning: +2 to all Knowledge Skills
For spellcraft see above, if it's not a class skill giving a bonus to it is weird. If it is, add it to the list. (Not entirely sure about the autohypnosis, give some background on the class so we can see your intention with it

As for the learning feature, describe what effect it has when you have 0 ranks in that skill (can you now use it as a "learned" skill or not?)

And generally, describe your features in order they appear, because now you jump from level 1 to level 5 and back again.


Read Scrolls: After spending 1 day (per spell) studying a scroll, Invoker can cast the spell,
scribed into it. Reading Scrolls does only work with arcane magic. Invoker can not cast spells that
exceed his "peers" (Wizards and Sorcerers) caster level by +2 and doesn't require any time to
decipher scrolls that are -2 spell ranks lower than his "peers" caster level. (level 5 invoker
can read scrolls from caster level 1-4, but not 5 or higher and doesn't require any time to read
scrolls of level 1 or 0, deciphering level 0 scrolls instantly requires level 3)

Does he add the spell to his "known spells" list? Does it use up the scroll?

Beyond that clear up the language used "does only work with" (vague) and some double statements at the end.

Also, does he need to make a check during that day to read the scroll? What happens when he is interrupted? Does it take 24 hours? 8 hours? Can he sleep? Clarification is needed.


Cast Spells*: Invoker can cast a total of (1/2xCasterLevel + Int Modifier) per day.
He cannot cast divine spells or cast the same spell two times in a row.

If he can't learn divine spells, how would he be able to cast them? Unnecessary statement. What happens at first level (round up or down on the amount of spells per day)? is 10 + Int mod enough spells for a level 20 character per day? (I doubt it). And why can't he cast the same spell in a row? (Plus what is in a row, does casting it in turn 1, doing nothing in turn 2 and casting it again in turn 3 in a row?) Again more clarification and probably some balancing needed.


Quas, Wex, Exort:Invoker constantly has 3 Orbs surrounding him: Quas, Wex, and Exort. (He can choose to have none)
Each of those orbs can activate (Q,W,E level + Int Modifier) times per day, giving him temporary
bonuses. They are prerequisite to cast his Invoker Spells later on. Invoker can change his the
orbs surrounding him 2 times per action of combat, and decide to activate them, as a free action.

Quas: +1 temporary HP per Orb (1/2/3/4/5) for 5 rounds
Wex: +5 Move Speed per Orb (5/8/11/14/17) for 5 rounds
Exort: +1 Dmg per Orb (1/2/3/4/5) on next attack

Vagueness all over. Q,W,E level?? They are both "constantly...surrounding him" and "He can choose to have none". And such wordings as "Invoker can change his the orbs surrounding him 2 times per action of combat, and decide to activate them, as a free action" (Say what now?). "They are prerequisite to cast his Invoker Spells later on." huh?

And the "per orb" in the effect descriptions, per orb active? per orb known? per orb use used? per orb use available? (Also what is with the numbers between brackets, from the first and third one would assume the increase of effects, but the 2nd doesn't follow that rule... unless it was supposed to be 2 + 3 per orb (also note that movement is always done in increments of 5 so these are weird anyhow).


Longevity: Invoker stops aging and preserves a young and lively presence.
He doesn not naturally age and cannot die of old age.

"young and lively" suggests he loses all age penalties? is that true? Either way describe how this ability affects aging penalties.


Relation to the Arcane: Invoker automatically recognizes all arcane spells cast.
That he sees? That he can percieve? etc

Again this might be an interesting feature, but without some background it's hard to judge.



Beyond all this we have such vague features as "(UP W,Q,E); (UP T2*)(UP T1*)" and variations thereof. Please explain them

And things like "Coldsnap, EMP, Sunstrike", which I assume are spells automatically learned or other spell like abilities or something, more explanation please.

And finally the "bonus feats" which while clear, are normally mentioned in the class features along with an explanation on which type of feats that can be taken. (example: Fighter (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fighter#Bonus_Feats) and Wizard (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Wizard#Bonus_Feats))


Conclusion
Not enough fluff to see if the abilities make sense.
Not clear enough in descriptions
Not everything is explained (at all or enough)
No clear layout to help people read it all

So clean it up, straighten it out, add more details, complete it and make it easier to read.... and ask people for feedback again.

Mexikorn
2014-05-27, 09:07 PM
@Loek: Thank's for your criticism. It might have been a bit harsh the first time I read it and admittedly it scared me off a bit, but you had some good points about my presentation. I overhauled the whole thing now and hope it's better to understand. I also corrected most of the errors. You have to know, I was a bit of a greenhorn back then, still am. Not enough knowledge skills about dnd in general. I just want to concern some of the problems you mentioned though and explain why some parts which you don't seem to understand are how they are.

First, profession as a class skill for Invoker doesn't seem right to me. He is supposed to be a arrogant prodigy spending all his time being awesome and studying in some large facilities, unless he is adventuring of course. He won't ever be "working" like regular civilians, he would rather starve or cast a warm meal spell, but nothing so... lowly.

About Read Scrolls, I hadn't thought it would so hard to formulate it out and so hard to understand. To be honest, I believed most of it was self explanatory. I now summed it all up in the description but perhaps you can help me formulate it out.

About no weapon or armor profficiencies, Invoker really isn't supposed to fight without magic. I added a fireball attack, which imho translates very well into the game though, especially since he originally also has got that in Dota.

About the orbs, I really can't think of a better way to describe it. Your best course of action is to check out a picture of invoker on the internet. Just imagine them as red, blue and purple, basketball big orbs surrounding his head.

About cast spells, I haven't put much thought about how many spells at lvl 20 are necessary. Personally I don't think or reckon that level 20 characters are legitimate at all (hence I only put the scalings from level 1-10 now). He isn't supposed to cast the same spells in succession during combat because game mechanics don't allow him in dota and he can't learn divine spells for the same reason.


I still haven't figured out the spells yet but should I find time and either a increase of games at my table or a public interest or even just suggestions from people who actually know dota... I will make them for sure. Balancing 10 custom spells might be a difficulty though, so don't be to harsh with me.

I hope the concept isn't to hard to understand for the average viewer, I really hope to accomplish to get some opinions of some veterans on whether my Invoker is balanced or not. I'd be glad to share him with you guys and feel happy if someone likes the idea and involves it into his or her game but I initially wanted a balanced sub class for my own party table. I'm looking forward to opinions and am open to all kinds of criticism. Hopefully this gets some love less than three. (my bad humour <3)

Loek
2014-05-28, 04:55 AM
First off, my apologies for seeming harsh, I'm guessing I was in a mood when I wrote it.


This attack is treated as though with the reach ability and gives no penalites in melee range.
Do you mean "as a melee weapon with the reach property"?

Realistically, I'd recommend basing it (roughly) on the warlock eldritch blast (http://dndtools.eu/classes/warlock/). Maybe limiting the range to 30ft, the damage dice to d4's and no essences/blast shapes.

That way it becomes a spell-like ability (not a strange weapon) in a way that is known to work.


Class Skills: Appraise, Fly, all Knowledge, Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, Linguistics
Fly is not a 3.5 skill (though it is in pathfinder, in that case, change the tag on the thread to pathfinder)

Same for linguistics, which would be "speak language" for 3.5


Skill Points: 6 + Int Modifier per level
You still don't have enough skills to chose from (again assuming you aren't becoming a master sage.

My suggestion, add some skills (appraise might fit with some arrogant fancy person // Listen&Spot (or perception in pathfinder) might work as well // and decipher script in 3.5)
And at the same time lowering the skill points to 4+int?


Each of those orbs can activate (Q,W,E level + Int Modifier) times per day, giving him temporary bonuses. They are prerequisite to cast his Invoker Spells later on.
Q,W,E level isn't defined anywhere and nowhere do you describe how they are "prerequisite" to his spells (how does that work).


Anyhow
Beyond this, there are two main things you need to work on.

Read scrolls needs to clarify if you know the spells forever or just one casting. And if it expends the scroll or not (like it does when a Wizard uses the scroll to scribe a spell into his spellbook).

You need to decide which type of class this is. A 10 level prestige class or a 20 level base class.

Prestige classes need more prerequisites and usually progresses the abilities of its previous classes.
Base classes are almost always 20 levels.


I understand that you are trying to match your source material, however, matching the game you are adapting to is also important.