How to play Paladin (socially)

[ChaosArchon]

Ok so I know a big thing about paladins is that people sometimes play them like Miko, and I was wondering if anyone had tips on how to play them w/o being a jerk? I'm asking cuz I'll (hopefully) be starting my first ever campaign and decided to play as a paladin because its an archetype I've always loved. Problem is I'm unsure how to roleplay a pally given that someone in my party is going to be NE, how do I play around that, or at least not fall in the process or face being a jerk to said player?

[hymer]

As part of the getting together and talking about what characters you all want to make, you should all hammer out whether there are any evil characters in the party, and whether there are any strongly good-aligned characters (such as paladins). Because it will be prohibitively hard to get the group working if you have both. Case in point, the paladin will be pretty much required to apprehend or smite the evil character first time s/he sees them step out of line (and why play Evil if you don't intend to do just that). IMO and at my table, players don't attack each other's characters.
Some groups may find it possible to have both extremes in one party, but good and clear communication between the players of the extreme characters will then be required, and solutions need to be worked out amicably.

OR: Everybody just kills each other. I'm told some people play with full PvP, but I have no advice on that.

[JellyPooga]

Straight up? A Paladin in a party with a NE character is just not going to work in the long term.

The NE guy might get away with it for a while, if s/he is subtle about the whole Evil thing, but eventually s/he is going to get caught in the Pallys Detect Evil-o-meter or do something overtly evil in front of the Pally, such that the Paladin will be compelled to either deal with them (subdue and arrest, redeem or straight up smite, depending on the severity of the evil-ness), or Fall. It's right there in the Code.

Now, I'm not a massive fan of The Code, myself and am all up for either bending it somewhat or even straight up ignoring it, but even so Paladins should only be tolerating Evil if there's a massively good reason for doing so. In the average murder-hobo game, though? Nuh uh, ain't gonna happen.

I suspect that one or the other of you is going to have to change their mind about their character.

The only way I can see it working is if you (the Paladin), already know that the other guy is Evil and are actively trying to redeem him under orders from your governing body (church, elder, or whatever, though I suspect you could be acting against their specific doctrine in a renegade stylee), whilst actively opposing every. single. act he does that even sniffs of evil. This, however, will probably make for some really tedious sermonising on your part and I suspect it won't be fun for anyone involved.

[da_chicken]

If someone is playing an evil-aligned character, do not play a Paladin. Not only does your class explicitly forbid you from adventuring with evil characters, it runs the risk of derailing the campaign due to party conflict. Even if you manage not to kill each other and the DM doesn't enforce your complete loss of class abilities, you will still often spend your time in conflict with the party rather than actually adventuring. If you go with a Paladin, you risk irritating not just the other characters in the campaign, but the other players at the table. In my experience, people are interested in what happens when a Paladin PC and and evil PC meet exactly once. Then... it's just something people want to avoid, and you want to be invited back to keep playing.

I can understand the desire to play a certain character, but there will be other campaigns where the character will be more appropriate. The character will be more rewarding to play in a campaign where it fits and you can work with the other players instead of working across means.

If you were asking about a game without evil characters, then the method I would suggest is: lead by example. Don't preach, don't cajole, don't coerce. Just follow the code for yourself, and be an exemplar.

[Larrx]

I'm usually a big fan of parties with a mix of alignments. The trick is to make sure that everyone in the party has similar goals. It's fairly simple to imagine an evil character that has a vested interested in saving Townsville, for example. If everyone is on the same page (must save Townsville), but different characters prefer different methods, the game can still be a healthy one. Handled with maturity, this leads to fun character moments rather than PvP.

That being said, Paladins have it -way- harder than most. The first thing I would do is talk with the DM and see if he'll relax some of the code restrictions. I think you technically fall just from being in the same party as an evil character :)

Some general tips:

-Avoid PvP situations. Disagreeing with other party members can be fun. In-character debates can be engaging. If you reach for dice to resolve conflict, things can end very badly. Never reach for the dice.

-Respect (maybe even like) the other PCs. Remember, after the first few combats you will have likely have saved each others lives multiple times. This can create some strong bonds. You can dislike an evil action and not want to participate in it, but if at all possible you should avoid hating your fellow adventurers. This can be . . . difficult? . . . to pull off realistically as a Paladin, but it's worth trying.

-This should go without saying, but while conflict between characters can be interesting, conflict between players is toxic. Normal social cues should make the difference clear (you shouldn't have to do anything explicit to let someone know that your glaring at their character not them). Still, it might come up so keep your eye out for "I'm taking my ball, and going home" faces and nip that sort of thing in the bud.

-Don't proselytize. If a player wrote a thief or a murderer, it was likely because they wanted to play a thief or a murderer. It is unlikely that you will be able to change their mind on that score. Even expressing hope that they might change their ways is an implicit statement that who they are is terrible. This is an easy and efficient way to hurt feelings. Focus instead of questions like "is thieving or murder an appropriate tactic to use to overcome this particular challenge?". Reform stories, or the opposite (deform?), can work but I've never seen them work unless they were planned at character creation.

This all assumes that you want to avoid PvP, which I inferred from the OP, but I could be wrong.

[ChaosArchon]

Yes I would like to avoid a PvP situation, right now I'm thinking I'll PM the DM and ask if the restrictions can be relaxed given that all the gods are dead so I'm technically deriving power from my own faith, or something like that.

[Spore]

I play most of my Paladins similarly because I cannot stand the arrogant and down talking hero who thinks all others in the party are just his squires. I play my paladins basically like the average hero fighter in any generic fantasy tale (plate armor, heavy weapons, optimistic, fair leader, energetic, restlessly fighting evil).

I try to lead by example and I try to ammend mistakes the party made. I will tolerate a few "evilish" things but let them pay for that. If your party rogue steals a bow from the shop, I will let them carry it back and tell the shop keeper how to improve his security. Remember that evil lurks in everyone's hearts and you can't just slay every evil (N)PC just because your evil-o-meter said so. Keep in mind that some DMs and players tend to make characters ranging from eye-for-eye justice towards deranged mental psychotic as evil. Same alignment, ENTIRELY different levels of evil. So the ex-farmer mercenary who killed the bandits who raided his farm with no mercy after torturing them is also evil like the undead wizard-lich who tries to find a way to make the living world his undead slaves.

[BWR]

This is actually two questions in one: how to handle paladins (or any good character) in an evil party and how to play paladins as anything but jerks.

The first has to be taken care of OOC BEFORE the game starts. Talk to your group and see if it works, because there will be conflict in character if these are played in any way like they were meant to be. If everyone things this sounds like fun - either redeeming the evil ones, corrupting the paladin or just ignoring all sense and rules and murderhoboing your way around the campaign setting, fine, but make sure everyone is on the same page first. If everyone wants to play an evil person and you bring in paladin and expect everyone to stop being evil, you're just being a jerk player. If the DM or players do their level best to screw over a paladin in game, they're being jerks. Don't be a jerk.

How to play paladins as anything but jerks: this is easy - don't be a jerk. First of all, paladins are charismatic. Back in the day they needed to have 17 or higher Charisma. There is just something about them that is commanding and noticeable. Being a paladin means you have a strict code to follow, but it doesn't mean you have to be supercilious, preachy, prideful or loud about it. You can play a lawful good character who is quiet and humble and leads by example never saying a word (or thinking one) about how others are not as good. Inspire goodness, don't threaten. Make people feel good, not guilty. Even if you are the only one who acts appropriately and everyone ridicules you for being inflexible, there is a right way to do things, and you do it.
You can also play them as vivacious, outgoing, friendly and fun. Fully capable of smiting evil (that's their job, after all) but with a sense of humor and a desire to make the world a better place by contructive as well as destructive means.

In short, you play them like any good person who abides by the rules and puts the good of the community ahead of her own. Just a bit moreso.


Personally, I'm annoyed at how so many people seem to think that only paladins are required to be upset at evil acts and on top of that have the nerve to believe that this is a bad thing. IMO, all good character will vehemently disagree with any evil acts. That's a major part of what being good is. Any LG cleric should have as strict a code to follow as the paladin - they are both beholden to higher powers for their abilities and are held to higher standards than your average peasant. Any good character should have a problem with evil people in their group and try to get them to stop, either by trying to convert them, turning them over to the authorities or killing them.

[chainer1216]

If someone is playing an evil-aligned character, do not play a Paladin.

why does the burden of change rest on the paladin and not the evil character's player?

[Amphetryon]

Assuming your group handwaves the "may not associate with Evil" issue Paladins face, the solution I prefer for Paladins to avoid being jerks probably seems paradoxical: Knight In Sour Armor (TVTropes term). Imagine someone who understands Lawfulness and Goodness, but also perceives that they are outmoded or unpopular concepts in the world in which he lives. He may be dour, he may be fatalistic, but he's unlikely to push his Alignment agenda on other folks, because he recognizes it as largely futile gesture. Alternately, he helps folks while grumbling at them about being more self-reliant and generally finding ways to do their part without needing him to pull their feet from the fire, rather than grumbling at them for not following his personal creed.

[Callin]

To not be a jerk. Be nice. Dont be condescending or overtly preachy. Talk about your god but use reverence and not strongarm religious tactics. Help those in need despite the risk to yourself. Laugh and joke in the Bar. Drink even, if your God does that sort of thing. Back in the day most everyone drank a very mild form of Mead. It was like our Soda of today. You dont have to play a Pious Prick. Avoid that. You dont have to Smite all evil. Evil is a necessity in the world. Dont endorse evil but live and let live until they break the law.

Toss out the Code of Conduct. Look at RIFTs and build up a new Code based on your character and God. Seriously the blanket Code is HORRIBLE.

[Red Fel]

A lot of players see the Paladin as the sword of his faith, the zealous and militaristic warrior who slays evil. Miko, when taken to extremes. That's part of the character, but hardly the whole thing.

Another part of the paladin is the shield of the people. The compassionate, warm, and good-hearted soul who doesn't fight evil because it's evil, but because it threatens innocent people. You're just as likely to find him helping an aging farmer patch up a hole in his barn roof as slaying undead.

Think of Captain America. Smiling, friendly, old-fashioned small-town-type person, chivalrous to the ladies, polite to the elderly, kind towards children. Sympathetic even to those whose backgrounds differ, and just even to his enemies. Never cruel, not even needlessly.

It's hard to dislike someone that sincere.

That's what you can go for when playing a non-jerk Paladin. A truly nice person. (With a sword.)

As for having Evil in your party, I'm going to agree with others; it's not going to work. Even ignoring the Code of Conduct, and even ignoring the absence of gods in the setting, an Evil character does Evil things, and a Paladin simply would not be okay with that, Code or not. I'm not talking mildly evil acts, like lying or cheating at cards, or even the occasional act of minor theft (although feel free to gently criticize for that). I'm talking seriously Evil things, like murdering innocents and human sacrifice and kicking puppies and torture and rape. These things are pretty much unforgivable by and Paladin standards. Even if it doesn't devolve into PvP, either character would be justified in leaving ICly. If things get to that point, it's bad. And a with Paladin in a party with an Evil character - a truly Evil character who's playing his alignment instead of just using a pair of letters on his sheet - someone will get to that point. Not a question of if, but of when.

Now, it's possible that this Evil character never does an Evil thing. In that case, no harm, no foul, but he's not really an Evil character, then, is he?

[neonchameleon]

Ok so I know a big thing about paladins is that people sometimes play them like Miko, and I was wondering if anyone had tips on how to play them w/o being a jerk? I'm asking cuz I'll (hopefully) be starting my first ever campaign and decided to play as a paladin because its an archetype I've always loved. Problem is I'm unsure how to roleplay a pally given that someone in my party is going to be NE, how do I play around that, or at least not fall in the process or face being a jerk to said player?

Read The Deed of Paksenarrion (http://www.baenebooks.com/p-100-the-deed-of-paksenarrion.aspx), and watch both Captain America movies. Both are pitch-perfect renditions of Paladins dealing with fairly complex worlds - and Paks was written because Elizabeth Moon overheard people complaining that good characters were boring. (She might not be a licensed D&D character, but the second book features The Village of Hommlet with the serial numbers filed off, and you can see when she levels up).

As for evil characters in the party, it depends how they manifest their evil. Selfishness - showing a better way. You don't and can't play round active jerks and sadists. You need to sort that out beforehand.

[JellyPooga]

Read The Deed of Paksenarrion (http://www.baenebooks.com/p-100-the-deed-of-paksenarrion.aspx)

Can't recommend this enough. Awesome trilogy and an awesome rendition of what Paladins can and should be. It has more than one good rendition of the Paladin archetype; one is quite sombre, another almost flirtatious, one very religious, etc. but all are undoubtedly Paladins.

[OldTrees1]

I personally prefer the ethics of mercy/compassion/redemption over the ethics of justice/retribution(common Paladin Archetype).

The ethics of mercy and compassion are quickly summed up as "Love the sinner, hate the sin". The battle of good and evil is not won by sending evil's minions to hell. Rather it is won by rescuing evil's minions from evil. As such it is the duty of these Paladins to protect and aid all individuals. Sometimes by merely being a symbol to inspire others towards self improvement. Other times by stopping evil and trying to redeem the evildoer. (Rather than simply murdering them as is a common trope)

This kind of Paladin is much more inclusive since it will not murder your NE companion merely for pinging on detect evil. However the attempts at redemption can be annoying if not done subtly, with empathy and spread out over time.

[da_chicken]

why does the burden of change rest on the paladin and not the evil character's player?

Because it sounds to me like OP is joining an existing group in the middle of a campaign.

Otherwise, sure, feel free to discuss it with the other players and make a group decision. It is every player's responsibility to ensure the group is functional.

[ChaosArchon]

Because it sounds to me like OP is joining an existing group in the middle of a campaign.

Otherwise, sure, feel free to discuss it with the other players and make a group decision. It is every player's responsibility to ensure the group is functional.

No its a new campaign and setting, but we all resolved it so thanks for the tips and everything guys!