Pathfinder Summoner Guide

[neonchameleon]

I'm currently playing a Summoner in a Pathfinder campaign and have discovered that the way I'm playing him is both very effective and at odds with every Summoner guide I've read yet. I'm playing my Summoner as a fairly generalist sorcerer (with an Eidolon he's trying to keep out of harms way; she's his deceased little sister*) It's an effective playstyle, so I started comparing the mechanics - and it's effective enough I turned it into a guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VAc_eoV_uwQoRjxgaofIGyPcdwLgaCzVJbjynN3ONao/edit#). Comments are absolutely welcome.

* Or big sister as the older twin - but she hasn't aged since she was killed.

[Hamste]

You might still want to look at the eidolon even if it is not your main focus. It is an important part of summoner and it can help greatly (when your not using the summon monster SLA which appears to be a focus in this guide). You might also want to look at archetypes, there are several that are great. Also a look at the spells and sla you can have summoned monsters cast could also be useful particularly because it adds a surprising amount of versatility to the summoner and allows for a much wider number of spells to be used.


What I particularly like about this guide is the look at the discounted spells, it is something I am always curious about and was a nice touch.

[neonchameleon]

You might still want to look at the eidolon even if it is not your main focus. It is an important part of summoner and it can help greatly (when your not using the summon monster SLA which appears to be a focus in this guide). You might also want to look at archetypes, there are several that are great. Also a look at the spells and sla you can have summoned monsters cast could also be useful particularly because it adds a surprising amount of versatility to the summoner and allows for a much wider number of spells to be used.


What I particularly like about this guide is the look at the discounted spells, it is something I am always curious about and was a nice touch.

Thanks - I've looked at both the Eidolon that works best with this approach (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oRoaIVTmDH7k6tVbTdXzuw-dYTPkdRo57NYB5Wv7vJo/edit#heading=h.cllyc4cbkts), and at Summon Monster spells (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16dZ5SBQMS1Yi6531tXOkKE_rmXEwn4VFacOEQKiHA5E/edit#) in separate guides. I've just made the linking clearer.

[Hamste]

Ah, ok I must just have missed it. They seem to be pretty good over all. The focus on rogue for the eidolon is a bit weird (with summons it is often considered very easy to solve traps and eidolons have a nasty problem scouting due to it getting weaker the further it goes) but the focus on skills and transport is an interesting idea that not many of these things investigate.

The list of summons could be a bit better organized like using the a rating system instead just listing them and possibly an actual list of the possible spells from it (and where they came from and what cl next to them)

[Vortenger]

In one of my games I am currently playing a summoner as a sorcerer-lite with a Rogue-dolon myself. I've found it to be a VERY powerful build, as there is really not much you can't do (Have to hold back for the party's sake sometimes). Its nice to see that playstyle getting some love.

Are you the author of the two other guides? They are what inspired me to try summoner over other casters a bit over a year ago. I have the summon monster reference bookmarked for weekly games (paired with the Summoner's Desk Reference Guide it completes all of 3.P). Excellent information! Character is well into the campaign and going like a juggernaut. Thanks for doing all the hard work!

[Snowbluff]

I suggest Samsaran as a race. It would save you a lot of Expanded Arcana.

If you are playing a synthesist, Mage Armor is your best option for armor for a long time. Of course, that's only if you're playing a synthesist.

[Vortenger]

I suggest Samsaran as a race. It would save you a lot of Expanded Arcana.

If you are playing a synthesist, Mage Armor is your best option for armor for a long time. Of course, that's only if you're playing a synthesist.

Samrasan has Int/Wis as racial boni, right? Their past life ability is really good, but lack of Cha synergy has got to hurt it a fair bit. Mystic Past Life seems to be their only selling point.

[Snowbluff]

Samrasan has Int/Wis as racial boni, right? Their past life ability is really good, but lack of Cha synergy has got to hurt it a fair bit. Mystic Past Life seems to be their only selling point.

Keep in mind that Cha is not as important for a summoner as it is for a Wizard or Sorc. Your Save DCs don't scale well, and you don't gain full bonus spells slots like a full caster. It's can be worth 3-5 feats if you are focused on poaching spells from other lists.

Int is training in another skill.

[Ellowryn]

Quick question as this is a non-locked summoner thread. It states that cannot use the summon monster SLA while your eidolon is active, but what kind of action is it to dismiss it? From the way the ability is worded it doesn't seem like you can just use the ability and your eidolon goes piff.

And as an archetype, would broodmaster work with the OP's build? You split things like feats and skillpoints but if your using your eidolon out of combat wouldnt having multiple creatures with varying focuses be better than just cramming them all into one?

[Snowbluff]

Quick question as this is a non-locked summoner thread. It states that cannot use the summon monster SLA while your eidolon is active, but what kind of action is it to dismiss it? From the way the ability is worded it doesn't seem like you can just use the ability and your eidolon goes piff. Maybe. I've heard it's a standard action to dismiss it. I think you can still cast Summon Eidolon when you have a summon out, too.


And as an archetype, would broodmaster work with the OP's build? You split things like feats and skillpoints but if your using your eidolon out of combat wouldnt having multiple creatures with varying focuses be better than just cramming them all into one?
It depends on what you are doing. A second Eidolon may aid another for +2.

Also, this:
Adopted -> Helpful trait (+4 on aid another, this is a halfling trait, but adopted lets you pick it up)
Skill Focus: Arcane (Helf bonus feat) -> Eldritch Heritage -> Arcane for a familiar (which may aid another)
Evolve Familiar, to give the familiar an evolution point. I like reach, but skilled is an option.
:smalltongue:

[Ellowryn]

That... is indeed odd... There is nothing in the summoners description that states you can't use your summon eidolon ability while your summon monster SLA is active, only that you cannot use your SLA while your eidolon is active. Seems like it would be worth cheesing if you get the ability to prep for combat.

And yeah, there was another post to another thread about taking eldritch heritage twice to gain the arcane and sylvan bloodlines to gain both a familiar and an animal companion (i believe it was the unusual pathfinder build thread). They called it their party of one build.

[Snowbluff]

That... is indeed odd... There is nothing in the summoners description that states you can't use your summon eidolon ability while your summon monster SLA is active, only that you cannot use your SLA while your eidolon is active. Seems like it would be worth cheesing if you get the ability to prep for combat. Yeah, pretty much.

Hey, wait... can a Synthesist still cast Summon Eidolon to grab a regular eidolon, or does it put you in the suit again> :smalltongue:


And yeah, there was another post to another thread about taking eldritch heritage twice to gain the arcane and sylvan bloodlines to gain both a familiar and an animal companion (i believe it was the unusual pathfinder build thread). They called it their party of one build.

Yeah, reread Eldritch Heritage and the sylvan bloodline. You take a five penalty to your druid level for the AnC. It's got 11 HD max without further investment. The Familiar might be a stronger fighter.

[grarrrg]

And yeah, there was another post to another thread about taking eldritch heritage twice to gain the arcane and sylvan bloodlines to gain both a familiar and an animal companion (i believe it was the unusual pathfinder build thread). They called it their party of one build.

Except that you cannot take Eldritch Heritage twice.
There are other ways of getting "stuff", but you can NOT take Eldritch Heritage twice.


Yeah, reread Eldritch Heritage and the sylvan bloodline. You take a five penalty to your druid level for the AnC. It's got 11 HD max without further investment. The Familiar might be a stronger fighter.
That's where Boon Companion comes in, which would make it only -1 level penalty.
The main question though is "will my DM allow Heritage to grab a Wildbloodline?".

[Ellowryn]

Oh no, i only get a 11 HD animal companion to break the action economy and tear apart my enemies while my team and i sit back drinking long island ice tea for 1 feat, or whatever equivalent they have for mixed drinks. :smallbiggrin: Also, another feat increases your effective druid level, or sorcerer level for familiars, bonded companion is its name i believe

Hrm, it does indeed seem like you cant take the feat more than once, which seems kinda silly to me. Possibly yet another oversight in the system. Although i dont see why any decent gm wouldnt let you take it more than once for a different bloodline power each.

edit; and swordsaged on the bonded companion feat :smallmad:

[Snowbluff]

That's where Boon Companion comes in, which would make it only -1 level penalty.
The main question though is "will my DM allow Heritage to grab a Wildbloodline?".

Oh no, i only get a 11 HD animal companion to break the action economy and tear apart my enemies while my team and i sit back drinking long island ice tea for 1 feat, or whatever equivalent they have for mixed drinks. :smallbiggrin: Also, another feat increases your effective druid level, or sorcerer level for familiars, bonded companion is its name i believe "Oh hey guys he mentioned further costs but I bet he wasn't thinking of the one feat." :smalltongue:

It's 3 feats, by the way. Skill Focus, Eldritch Bloodline, and then Boon Companion. And after that the Eidolon should have been able to kick its tush anyway.


Hrm, it does indeed seem like you cant take the feat more than once, which seems kinda silly to me. Possibly yet another oversight in the system. Although i dont see why any decent gm wouldnt let you take it more than once for a different bloodline power each. You could just dip sorc1 for the familiar. It doesn't really need to scale wit ha class level.


edit; and swordsaged on the bonded companion feat :smallmad:
More like monked.

[grarrrg]

You could just dip sorc1 for the familiar. It doesn't really need to scale wit ha class level.
You can dip a LOT of things for a Familiar. And they DO scale quite well, with most of their stats being based off of your -total- HD/Bab/etc..
Only their Special Abilities depend on 'effective Wizard level'.


Hrm, it does indeed seem like you cant take the feat more than once, which seems kinda silly to me. Possibly yet another oversight in the system. Although i dont see why any decent gm wouldnt let you take it more than once for a different bloodline power each.

? :smallconfused:
I am confused by your position.
First off, it is much more common for feats to be 'only once' than it is for them to be 'take as often as you want'.

And how does limiting Eldritch Heritage to once seem like an "oversight"? The flavor is that once of your ancestors was a [race], and you are getting access to [powers]. A person with significant access to more than a couple bloodlines (Sorcerer w/Heritage) should be rare to the point of impossible anyway.

[Ellowryn]

And how does limiting Eldritch Heritage to once seem like an "oversight"? The flavor is that once of your ancestors was a [race], and you are getting access to [powers]. A person with significant access to more than a couple bloodlines (Sorcerer w/Heritage) should be rare to the point of impossible anyway.

Because just having multiple class levels technically makes you extremely rare. i dont know the source but ive seen it posted multiple times about how only people who are the stuff of legends get more than a one or two levels, something like 1/10,000, with it scaling up to 1/1,000,000 or more once you pass level 10.

Also, by taking the feat you are seeking out and accessing your hidden eldritch heritage rather than having it passively given to you. Its sorta like having a diverse family history, and being able to go in and pick out traits of specific types of ancestors.

Or, looking at the actual class feature:
Bloodline: Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. For example, a sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil.
So you could have had multiple people in your family lineage doing heroic/evil/stupid stuff to gain the ability to gain multiple magical heritage.

[neonchameleon]

In one of my games I am currently playing a summoner as a sorcerer-lite with a Rogue-dolon myself. I've found it to be a VERY powerful build, as there is really not much you can't do (Have to hold back for the party's sake sometimes). Its nice to see that playstyle getting some love.

Are you the author of the two other guides? They are what inspired me to try summoner over other casters a bit over a year ago. I have the summon monster reference bookmarked for weekly games (paired with the Summoner's Desk Reference Guide it completes all of 3.P). Excellent information! Character is well into the campaign and going like a juggernaut. Thanks for doing all the hard work!

I am indeed - and I'm glad to find it's working well :) I've recently updated it for APs, for Summon Neutral Monster, and because I'd seriously underrated both small and large earth elementals. Any specific feedback where I've made mistakes?


Quick question as this is a non-locked summoner thread. It states that cannot use the summon monster SLA while your eidolon is active, but what kind of action is it to dismiss it? From the way the ability is worded it doesn't seem like you can just use the ability and your eidolon goes piff.

And as an archetype, would broodmaster work with the OP's build? You split things like feats and skillpoints but if your using your eidolon out of combat wouldnt having multiple creatures with varying focuses be better than just cramming them all into one?

Broodmaster is pretty awful. Two characters at half strength is a lot weaker than one at full.


That... is indeed odd... There is nothing in the summoners description that states you can't use your summon eidolon ability while your summon monster SLA is active, only that you cannot use your SLA while your eidolon is active. Seems like it would be worth cheesing if you get the ability to prep for combat.

Yup. To me it comes under the same dirty trick heading as getting two rounds of SLA Summon Monster on one turn, but is definitely legal.


Yeah, pretty much.

Hey, wait... can a Synthesist still cast Summon Eidolon to grab a regular eidolon, or does it put you in the suit again> :smalltongue:

You only have one Eidolon.

[Ellowryn]

Spent most of a paragraph trying to get at one compound word, and English is supposed to be my primary language. What i was trying to get at, is the ability to Multitask worth going broodmaster? And yes i know that in terms of raw stats and abilities having one eidolon is better than two, but being able to do more at one time seems useful, especially in combat situations where action economy becomes important.

[Snowbluff]

You only have one Eidolon.

Doesn't really answer my question, but sure. :smalltongue:

[Ellowryn]

Summon Eidolon
"You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.

Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.

If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage."

I believe you just get your suit of outsider armor back.

[neonchameleon]

Spent most of a paragraph trying to get at one compound word, and English is supposed to be my primary language. What i was trying to get at, is the ability to Multitask worth going broodmaster? And yes i know that in terms of raw stats and abilities having one eidolon is better than two, but being able to do more at one time seems useful, especially in combat situations where action economy becomes important.

No. Well, hardly ever. Unless you want to cripple the Eidolon, the second one is about as useful as an Unseen Servant. There is the case that if you're already taking a small Eidolon for the hiding bonus, you might as well have a second to get yourself an ambulatory shield. But even that's very niche and the second Eidololn will pop in one hit.

[Vortenger]

Keep in mind that Cha is not as important for a summoner as it is for a Wizard or Sorc. Your Save DCs don't scale well, and you don't gain full bonus spells slots like a full caster. It's can be worth 3-5 feats if you are focused on poaching spells from other lists.

Int is training in another skill.

In a general case scenario, I would agree. The OP speaks specifically of playing your summoner AS a sorcerer, however. (Moreover, suggests to make your eidolon a non-combatant. Unless I'm mistaken, leaning on the eidolon is how the summoner requires less casting [stat].) Those save DC's and extra spells are indeed mandatory under such circumstances. I'll have to stand by my assessment of Samrasan, I'm afraid.

Um... what do you mean you don't get full bonus spell slots? That's...new...

@Ellowryn- I play a half elf with Eldritch Heritage: Sylvan and Boon Companion, using the OP's suggested build, more or less. Quite frankly, its just too much. I've requested to retrain those feats, as having 3 sets of actions in combat (Me, the Roc, and 1d3+2 minions) takes some time. The Roc does nearly as much damage as our groups barbian with mild itemization. My solemn advice? Unless the group is 3 players or less don't do it. It isn't fun to make your friends superfluous.

[neonchameleon]

In a general case scenario, I would agree. The OP speaks specifically of playing your summoner AS a sorcerer, however. (Moreover, suggests to make your eidolon a non-combatant. Unless I'm mistaken, leaning on the eidolon is how the summoner requires less casting [stat].)

Yup :)


Um... what do you mean you don't get full bonus spell slots? That's...new...

Samsarans (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran)

Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.

That, I assume, is what is being talked about? It says you add to the spell list rather than the spells known.

[Ellowryn]

It isn't fun to make your friends superfluous. Since when? :smalltongue:

The whole more-actions-per-round-than-you-can-shake-a-stick-at build was originally intended as a one man party/bbeg build, not something to have in addition to a full party. But then again it sounds like your problem is that you are not planning out your actions before your turn, but playing that way with so many actions isn't for everybody and gets confusing very easy.

[Snowbluff]

In a general case scenario, I would agree. The OP speaks specifically of playing your summoner AS a sorcerer, however. (Moreover, suggests to make your eidolon a non-combatant. Unless I'm mistaken, leaning on the eidolon is how the summoner requires less casting [stat].) Those save DC's and extra spells are indeed mandatory under such circumstances. I'll have to stand by my assessment of Samrasan, I'm afraid.
Sure.


Um... what do you mean you don't get full bonus spell slots? That's...new...
The spell slots from ability scores table is based on ninth level casters. You get substantially fewer slots from your Cha than an equivalent full caster would. Even at lower levels, being a spell level behind a wizard might cost you a bonus slot or two.
Which is one of the reasons why sorcerers suck.

Hey guys, can a serpent eidolon be tripped or made prone? :smalltongue:

[Reverent-One]

On the topic of the guide itself, your understanding of grease has some significant errors. For one, in Pathfinder, there is no Balance skill anymore, so it is more common to find people trained in the skill needed to move across it safely (Acrobatics). It also has a save, which is the opposite of what the guide claims.

[Vortenger]

Since when? :smalltongue:

The whole more-actions-per-round-than-you-can-shake-a-stick-at build was originally intended as a one man party/bbeg build, not something to have in addition to a full party. But then again it sounds like your problem is that you are not planning out your actions before your turn, but playing that way with so many actions isn't for everybody and gets confusing very easy.

Oh, I do. I pre-roll and set aside attack and damage dice for the AC, and pouncers. It's the tactical aspect of positioning 3-5 caster monsters spells, as well as my own, usually. Its a lot of AOE and mapping it out can take time. (My group demands psionic elementals...have you used those before? Don't. Too good.) I don't believe there is much merit deciding where a spell lands before the enemy is in their final positions, so that waits until my initiative.

As to the guide, it seems solid. I've found at mid-higher level I started using Slow more often than Glitterdust for the same Will save. The precision targeting aspect is worth gold if your party fails at group coordination, and there are no recurring saves per turn. If it hits it sticks. The guide's preference for Glitterdust is prominent. I otherwise agree with pretty much every ranking given. No mention of Teleport Circle at lvl 6 spells? It's the origin of the Tippyverse in one conviniently discounted level 9 package! While it has no use for the average dungeon delver, that alone has to be worth mention! :smallwink:

edit: The Shadow Form evolution would likely make a good addition to your alternate eidolon guide. Using that for concealment and a maxed out stealth, I have my eidolon HiPS through most of the dungeon spying on room layouts, trap locations, and enemy formations. She often means the difference between the monsters getting the drop on us, or us on them. As if the rogue needed any more reason to worry about being replaced by NPC's...