New spellcasting class/system begs opinions

[Szatany]

The title says it all: I've made a variant wizard that uses kinda-new method of spellcasting and I'd like opinions if it's poor/broken/stinking/perfect. Thank you for your time with it.

Wizard
http://www.jamesryman.com/illustration/paizo/gallery/Wizard%20cover%20final2.jpg
Picture by James Ryman

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Wizards have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Same as in Player's Handbook.

Alignment: Any.

Hit Points per Level: 1d4 + Con modifier.
Hit points are maximized at 1st character level.

Skill Points per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Skill points are multiplied by 4 at 1st character level.

Class Skills: The wizard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).


Base Fort Ref Will
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special .
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Scribe scroll, spell
matrix, spellcasting
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Arcana
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 -
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Essence pool
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 -
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Arcana
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 -
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Hidden pages
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 -
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Arcana
11th +5 +3 +3 +7 -
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 High arcana
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 -
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Arcana
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 -
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 High arcana
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 -
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Arcana
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 -
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 High arcana
CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features of the wizard.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A wizard is proficient with 5 simple weapons of his choice, but with no armor or shields.

Scribe Scroll: At 1st level, a wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. Same as in Player’s Handbook.

Spell Matrix (Ex): A wizard can quickly cast her most basic spells. She can cast a 0-level invocations as move actions.

Spellcasting: A wizard casts arcane spells, which are drawn mainly from the wizard spell list, but also from all other lists. She casts spells from wizard list normally, but spells from other lists are cast at highest listed spell level. For example, if a spell's level can normally be cast by bard as a 2nd level spell and by a paladin as a 3rd level spell, a wizard casts that spell as a 3rd level spell (abbreviated as "Wiz 3").
To learn or cast a spell, a wizard must have a Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + half the wizard's level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day (excluding invocations, see below). The wizard doesn't receives bonus spells per day for having high Intelligence score. Like cleric or sorcerer, a wizard may know a number of spells from each spell level equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. It is possible for her to learn spells above that limit, but the costs are high. Wizard's spell slots regenerate after good night's sleep. If she did not have such a luxury, she cannot fill emptied slots until she rests.
A wizard need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that level. She does not have to decide ahead of time which spells she’ll cast.
Wizard's caster level is equal to her class level.

Spells per day Invocations
Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 C.L. known
1st 3 1 - - - - - - 1 1
2nd 3 2 - - - - - - 1 2
3rd 4 3 - - - - - - 2 2
4th 4 3 1 - - - - - 2 2
5th 4 3 2 - - - - - 3 3
6th 4 4 3 - - - - - 3 3
7th 4 4 3 1 - - - - 4 3
8th 4 4 3 2 - - - - 4 4
9th 4 4 4 3 - - - - 5 4
10th 4 4 4 3 1 - - - 5 4
11th 4 4 4 3 2 - - - 6 5
12th 4 4 4 4 3 - - - 6 5
13th 4 4 4 4 3 1 - - 7 5
14th 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - 7 6
15th 4 4 4 4 4 3 - - 8 6
16th 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 - 8 6
17th 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - 9 7
18th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 - 9 7
19th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 10 7
20th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 10 8
Learning New Spells: A wizard can learn any spell, but doing so is very expensive and time consuming. Learning a spell requires expenditure of gold equal to spell's level squared x 50 (or 25 gp in case of 0-level spells) for special rare materials. In addition, the wizard must either have a teacher (another arcane spellcaster who knows the spell - that person need not to be a wizard though), a scroll with the spell (which is destroyed in the process of learning it), or spend a number of days equal to spell's level squared on developing the spell from scratch (6 hours for a 0-level spell).
If a wizard attempts to learn a spell and she already reached her limit of spells known for that level, multiply gold cost by 10.
A newly created 1st level wizard knows a number of 1st level spells equal to her Int bonus and the same number of 0-level spells.
Spellbooks: Spells are difficult to contain in memory. Every day a wizard must study her spellbook for 1 hour (this can be done at any time of day, but a wizard must not be fatigued or otherwise tired). Studying spells written in the book allows the wizard to refresh her memory and keep her spellcasting abilities at peek efficiency. For each day the wizard does not study her spellbook, her caster level is cumulatively reduced by 1 when determining effects of spells, unless she studies her spellbook for an hour.

Invocations: A wizard can cast some spells as invocations. That means that she doesn't need to spend a slot of an appropriate level to cast that spell. Any spell cast as invocation uses reduced caster level, as shown on table: spells per day. A wizard can cast invocations even if she has no slots left.
At 1st level, a wizard learns how to cast one 0-level spell from the list below as invocation (provided she knows that spell).
At 2nd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a wizard learns how to cast another spell from the list below as invocation. A wizard can choose a spell she doesn't yet know, but she is unable to cast it until she learns it. She cannot, however, choose a spell she can't yet cast because her class level is too low to access that level of spells.
List of spells a wizard can cast as invocations:
0-level - Acid Splash, Daze, Flare, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Resistance, Touch of Fatigue.
1st level - Mage Armor, True Strike, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Cause Fear, Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Jump, Magic Weapon
2nd level - Melf's Acid Arrow, Daze Monster, Touch of Idiocy, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Scare, Protection from Arrows
3rd level - Dispel Magic, Sleet Storm, Hold Person, Rage, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch, Flame Arrow, Keen Edge
4th level - Crushing Despair, Bestow Curse, Fire Shield, Ice Storm, Shout, Contagion, Enervation, Fear
5th level - Dismissal, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Bigby's Interposing Hand, Cone of Cold, Blight, Waves of Fatigue, Telekinesis.Arcana: At 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels, a wizard gains minor ability to manipulate magic in some way.
Abuse Spell (Ex): A wizard can cast any spell at increased power, at the cost of damaging that spell. Whenever a wizard casts a spell, she can cast it at +1 caster level and +2 DC. If she does however, she cannot cast that spell for next 7 days.
Artificer (Ex): A wizard spends 10% less gold and experience points when creating magic items other than scrolls or potions. She also requires 10% less time to make those items.
Bonus Feat: A wizard gains bonus feat. This can be any item-creation or metamagic feat, or Spell Mastery.
Charged Invocation (Ex): A wizard can cast one known invocation at +2 caster level. She can take this arcana more than once, each time choosing diferent invocation.
Compressed Casting (Ex): Whenever a wizard casts a spell with duration of at least 3 rounds, she can cast it as a compressed spell. Spell's duration becomes 2 rounds, but all caster level-dependant effects are calculated at caster level +4 and spell's DC (if any) increases by +4.
Energized Casting (Ex): A wizard can cast spells for longer time to make them more potent. For each round of casting added to the original time, spell’s DC and caster level-dependant effects increase by +1. Only spells with casting time of 1 round or less can be affected by this ability and a wizard cannot energize for more than 3 rounds.
Far Casting (Ex): All spells cast by the wizard have their range calculated as if she had one caster level more.
Matter from Mind (Ex): If you cast a spell with a costly material component or focus, you can ignore the component or focus, by paying the 1 XP per 5 gp cost of the component or 1 XP per 50 gp cost of the focus (in both cases min. 1 XP). This XP can come from your reserve pool.
Quick Study (Ex): A wizard has been reading spells for so long it has become her second nature. She needs only 10 minutes instead of 1 hour to study her spellbook.
Legacy of Rary (Ex): Whenever a wizard successfully casts a spell that has no effect because of saving throw or Spell Resistance, she immediately gains empty spell slot 1 level lower than the spell cast occupied.
Quick Study (Ex): A wizard has been studying spellbooks for so long it has become her second nature. She needs 10 minutes instead of 1 hour to refresh her spells.
This extra spell slot remains for 1 hour. Spells cast as invocations do not trigger this ability.
Reforge Item (Ex): A wizard can disjoin magic items to harvest the power held within. The process requires 1 hour, at the end of which the wizard can add a number of points to her item essence pool (see below) equal to one-half the XP required to create the item. For instance, if a wizard reforged a +5 longsword (which costs 2,000 XP to create) she would add 1,000 points to her pool. A charged item that isn't fully charged only contributes a proportional amount of XP. For instance, a wand with only 25 charges would contribute half the normal points of a fully charged wand.
Straining Invocation (Ex): A wizard can cast any invocation spell at full caster level. If she does, she cannot cast that spell as invocation until the beginning of next day.Essence Pool: A wizard gains small but growing amount of experience points to spend on all things magical. Beginning with 4th level, she gains a number of experience points equal to her wizard level x10 that only be spent on item creation or on spells with xp component (write down those xp separately, do not use them to gain levels). New pool replaces old one, so any unspent xp is lost upon leveling up.

Hidden Pages (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a wizard learns how to hide extra pages in her spellbook through nonmagical means, increasing the page count by one at the cost of 1 gp. See Spellbooks on page 130 of the Player's Handbook. These hidden pages may contain illustrated or written information, including additional spells. The number of hidden pages may be increased by 1 per 2 caster levels (maximum 15). A DC 20 Search check is required to find each such hidden page in a spellbook. Wizards can increase the Search DC of an individual pages by +1 for each additional 20gp they spend on a page.

High Arcana: At level 12, and again at 16, and 20 a wizard gains a powerful special ability from the list below. Sacrificing spell slots is a swift action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Arcane Fire (Su): A wizard can sacrifice 7th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, spells that deal acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage she casts instead deal arcane damage. (Similarily to divine damage, there are no resistances against arcane damage.)
Arcane Reach (Su):A wizard can sacrifice 5th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, she can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The wizard must make a ranged touch attacks with those spells.
Chronomancy (Ex): A wizard can sacrifice 5th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, all her spells of level 2 or lower are automatically extended (as per feat).
High Echelon (Ex): A wizard can sacrifice 5th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, all her spells of level 2 or lower are automatically enlarged (as per feat).
Inevitable Spellcasting (Ex): A wizard can sacrifice 6th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, she increases the DC of all her spells by 1. Multiple uses of this ability are not cumulative.
Inner Voice (Ex): A wizard can sacrifice 5th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, all her spells of level 2 or lower are automatically silenced (as per feat).
Mastery of Counterspelling (Ex): A wizard can sacrifice 4th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, whenever a wizard counterspells a spell, she turns it back to the original caster as if it was fully affected by a spell turning. If the spell cannot be turned, it is merely counterspelled.
Mastery of Shaping (Ex): A wizard can sacrifice 4th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, she can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet.
Monolith Spellcasting (Ex): A wizard can sacrifice 5th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, all her spells of level 2 or lower are automatically stilled (as per feat).
Universal Spellcasting (Ex): A wizard can sacrifice 4th level slot to use this ability for one hour. If she does, any spell she casts is from universal school instead of its normal school. Descriptors are not affected by this ability.EPIC WIZARD
To the epic wizard, knowledge is power, and the quest for knowledge is never-ending. The secrets of greater magic and the creation of artifacts tempt the epic wizard, who pursues these secrets across the planes.

Wizard
Level Special .
21th Essence pool
22th Arcana
23th -
24th High arcana
25th -
26th Arcana
27th -
28th High arcana
29th -
30th Arcana
Essence Pool: At each epic level, a wizard continues to gain experience points to spend on item creation or on spells with xp component.

Arcana: At 22nd level and every 4 levels thereafter (26th, 30th, 34th, and so on), a wizard gains new arcana ability.

High Arcana: At 24th level and every 4 levels thereafter (28th, 32nd, 36th, and so on), a wizard gains high arcana ability. She can instead choose an epic feat. The list of available epic feats is same as in Epic Level Handbook.

[iceman]

Szatany, you have apparently put a lot of time and effort into this and I commend you for your ideas. However, as someone who plays wizards as much as possible, I believe that the class might be a little more powerful thanthe wizard class their is now (although there is no sure way to tell until it is thouroughly played through). I believe the high arcana throws it off a little bit and some of the arcana components need a drawback of some kind.
Otherwise, I think that this would go a long way to making the wizard a little bit more even keeled with the rest of the classes.


EDIT: oops shows how well I was paying attention, if the spells only go up to 7th level then I think that this class would probably be balanced a little more

[Leush]

I like the flavour. You need to craft more classes. I'll look at it more tommorow. :

EDIT Wait wait wait... what happened to level eight and nine spells? do they not exist as a kind of compensation? If this is so, I like it. (Partially because level eight and nince spells are silly and partially because it makes them I don't know, different and wizardy.

[Szatany]

Thanks guys. What if high arcanas worked for 1 hour instead of until next day?


I like the flavour. You need to craft more classes. I'll look at it more tommorow. :

EDIT Wait wait wait... what happened to level eight and nine spells? do they not exist as a kind of compensation? If this is so, I like it. (Partially because level eight and nince spells are silly and partially because it makes them I don't know, different and wizardy.Yes, 8th and 9th level spells (and two 7th level, and one 6th level spell) are gone, as is specialization. This is price for:
- about 10 class abilities
- spell DC equal to half level instead of spell level
- spontaneous casting of everything you know (although you won't know much because spells are expensive)
- invocations (unlimited casting of weakened versions of few selected spells)

[Quietus]

Your ideas interest me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Thorodin]

I like the ideas, but it seems more of a prestige class to me.

[henebry]

Where's Bears w/ Lasers?

There are a lot of folks round here who agree that fighters are underpowered at mid to high levels by comparison to Wizards and other spellcasters. I'm too much of a newbie to really grasp the larger issues at hand. But I'd love to hear what some of these folk might say to your proposal.

By the way, am I correct in recognizing you as the Szatany who is a regular over on the WoTC boards? If so, good to have you here on GiTP.

CH

[Orzel]

I like it

It reminds me of my first exp with 3.0 because the DM changed casters to fit his low magic setting. "He made the casters into a bunch of beefed up bards with different powers. Luckily you don't what I talking about."

A few of the high arcanas are powerful but I like it.

[Legoman]

Leave the essence pool to the artificer, and you have a solid class.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: To Homebrew!

[Szatany]

Sheriff of Moddingham: To Homebrew!
Thanks :)


Leave the essence pool to the artificer, and you have a solid class.If I don't have artificers in my games, would the pool the OK then?


Where's Bears w/ Lasers?

By the way, am I correct in recognizing you as the Szatany who is a regular over on the WoTC boards? If so, good to have you here on GiTP.

CHYes that's me.:smallsmile:

[Legoman]

Personally, I don't think so. I mean, a big drawback to crafting, say, a greater metamagic rods, is the massive XP hit that you'll incur in doing so. Handing out 15000 free XP basically makes these rods half-price, and so you'll have to deal with players chaining everything in sight. Or worse, giving those rods to the Divine Metamagic (Twinned) cleric, who will then proceed to drop 4d4 neg levels on anyone in sight.

[Neek]

This is an impressive variant. I might use it, sans the XP pool! Oh, and add prestidigitation to the 0-level invocations.

[jlousivy]

you may want to state the cost of learning a 0 level spell, as it stands it cost
(0^2)x50 = 0gp and 0 days, just a nit pick though, i like the class

[Szatany]

Personally, I don't think so. I mean, a big drawback to crafting, say, a greater metamagic rods, is the massive XP hit that you'll incur in doing so. Handing out 15000 free XP basically makes these rods half-price, and so you'll have to deal with players chaining everything in sight. Or worse, giving those rods to the Divine Metamagic (Twinned) cleric, who will then proceed to drop 4d4 neg levels on anyone in sight. Ok, I can see now that essence pool is too good, but I still want to preserve it for flavor if nothing else so I seriously nerfed it.
Now it gives you, at every level, xp equal to level x10, and that xp must be spent during this level because it doesn't carry over to the next level. So a 15th level wizard could use his free 150 xp on some scrolls or maybe a wand, but she will not be churning out those rods.


you may want to state the cost of learning a 0 level spell, as it stands it cost
(0^2)x50 = 0gp and 0 days, just a nit pick though, i like the class
Thx, added.


This is an impressive variant. I might use it, sans the XP pool! Oh, and add prestidigitation to the 0-level invocations.How could I forget the prestidigitation :). Added. And xp pool is much saner now too.

EDIT: I also made a druid variant that uses same method of spellcasting (and changes wildshape a lot). Would you like me post it?

[InaVegt]

Gimme the druid, if it's as awesome as this wizard I'd love to see this.

BTW, weren't the ultimate classes yours?

[Black Mage]

Just to start, I love all of your classes, Szatany. They are much better than the standard classes from the PHB.

About this one...I'm stealing it for the next campaign I run. Even though my friend, who is a magic tweak, will try to kill me for it. :smalltongue:
Do you have a sorcerer varient that goes along with the same system as this wizard?

[Yakk]

I'm a bit concerned about the possible huge spell list. Let's look at the costs:

L 0: 25 gp (note: this should be 12.5 gp, if L 0 as half-level spells is the pattern)
L 1: 50 gp
L 2: 200 gp
L 3: 450 gp
L 4: 800 gp
L 5: 1,250 gp
L 6: 1,800 gp
L 7: 2,450 gp

Now this looks expensive. But from 16 to 18 the character spends half of his WBL on 6th level spells:
(28,000 + 36,000 + 47,000) * 3.33 / 2
(using the expected treasure per encounter, 13.33 encoutners/level, party of 4, even split)
184,000 gp, enough to buy over 100 6th level spells.

Conclusion: By the standard WBL guildlines, your wizard's spell list is only limited by what spells she can find, not by the cost of the spells.

If you want spell cost to be the limiting factor on how many spells a wizard can know, you should start from the perspective of "how many spells do I want the wizard to know of each level", then examine the WBL system, determine costs of spells assuming a good fraction of money (say 50%) is spent on the spells. And then, see if you can abuse it.

[Szatany]

Gimme the druid, if it's as awesome as this wizard I'd love to see this.

BTW, weren't the ultimate classes yours?
She's already here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34819

Yes, ultimate classes are mine work.


Just to start, I love all of your classes, Szatany. They are much better than the standard classes from the PHB.

About this one...I'm stealing it for the next campaign I run. Even though my friend, who is a magic tweak, will try to kill me for it. :smalltongue:
Do you have a sorcerer varient that goes along with the same system as this wizard?
Not yet. I mean, I have sorcerer but it's an old project and totally not compatibile with new spellcasting system. Haven't started working on him yet, but my incarnate (favored soul remake) is 3/4 done. I can post it if you want to help me with it.


I'm a bit concerned about the possible huge spell list. Let's look at the costs:[...]
Yes I know. We have two possible options that don't increase complexity: either warn DM that he should keep an eye on party's finances, or increase cost of spells. I took spells prices out of thin air, I have no idea how costly they should be so it's impossible to break the reasonable limit without DM's approval.


If you want spell cost to be the limiting factor on how many spells a wizard can know, you should start from the perspective of "how many spells do I want the wizard to know of each level", then examine the WBL system, determine costs of spells assuming a good fraction of money (say 50%) is spent on the spells. And then, see if you can abuse it.I think 10 spells/level would be about right.

[Black Mage]

She's already here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34819

Yes, ultimate classes are mine work.


Not yet. I mean, I have sorcerer but it's an old project and totally not compatibile with new spellcasting system. Haven't started working on him yet, but my incarnate (favored soul remake) is 3/4 done. I can post it if you want to help me with it.


I'll help as much as I can.

[Szatany]

All right then, variant favored soul is here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34952

[Yakk]

Have a table limiting how many cheap spells the Wizard can know. (I wrote one below)

Beyond that, have an exponential cost to learn more spells.

Research cost for your first extra spell known slot:
0th: 30 gp
1st: 100 gp
2nd: 300 gp
3rd: 1,000 gp
4th: 3,000 gp
5th: 10,000 gp
6th: 30,000 gp
7th: 100,000 gp

The second extra spell of a given spell level costs twice as much as the first. The 3rd costs twice as much as the second. Etc -- the 10th extra spell costs 512 times as much as the first.

Such research takes 1 day, plus 1 day per level of the spell. What exactly the Wizard spends the money on is up to the DM -- access to tomes of magic, rare monster components, tutoring by sages. Such "Magical Research" treasure could be found as part of normal adventuring.

A Wizard can "archive" spells and have them no longer take up a spell known slot, in order to learn a different spell.

...

You also didn't indicate what is the maximium level of invocations. Given that the max level of invocations is L 5, a progression of +1 level every 4 levels works well, offset from the increased invocation caster level.

You have a number of invocations that have long durations -- in effect, these spells will be up on everyone at nearly all times. Might you want to have some rules about these? (ie: minutes/level invocations are of indefinate duration. The wizard can maintain up to her caster level in such invocations at any one time, where cantrips count as half-level spells.)

Lastly, I tweaked your table to give a new spell at every level. Your table had levels where your wizard didn't gain any spells. (8th to 9th, for example, or 11th to 12th).

Every level, a Wizard now gains either a top-level spell or 1 spell for the 2nd and 3rd top level the Wizard has.

At L 20, the Wizard also gets an extra L 7 spell as a bonus "capstone" for finishing the entire level progression.



Spells per day Spells known Invocations Levels
Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Caster Spell
1st 3 1 - - - - - - 5 3 - - - - - - 1 0
2nd 3 2 - - - - - - 6 4 - - - - - - 1 1
3rd 4 3 - - - - - - 7 5 - - - - - - 2 1
4th 4 3 1 - - - - - 8 6 3 - - - - - 2 1
5th 4 3 2 - - - - - 9 7 4 - - - - - 3 1
6th 4 4 3 - - - - - 9 8 5 - - - - - 3 2
7th 4 4 3 1 - - - - 9 9 6 3 - - - - 4 2
8th 4 4 3 2 - - - - 9 9 7 4 - - - - 4 2
9th 4 4 4 3 - - - - 9 9 8 5 - - - - 5 2
10th 4 4 4 3 1 - - - 9 9 9 6 3 - - - 5 3
11th 4 4 4 3 2 - - - 9 9 9 7 4 - - - 6 3
12th 4 4 4 4 3 - - - 9 9 9 8 5 - - - 6 3
13th 4 4 4 4 3 1 - - 9 9 9 9 6 3 - - 7 3
14th 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - 9 9 9 9 7 4 - - 7 4
15th 4 4 4 4 4 3 - - 9 9 9 9 8 5 - - 8 4
16th 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 - 9 9 9 9 9 6 3 - 8 4
17th 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - 9 9 9 9 9 7 4 - 9 4
18th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 - 9 9 9 9 9 8 5 - 9 5
19th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 9 9 9 9 9 9 6 3 10 5
20th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 9 9 9 9 9 9 7 4 10 5

[Szatany]

Have a table limiting how many cheap spells the Wizard can know. (I wrote one below)No, no extra tables. A formula is acceptable, but the game should be easy, and tables /= easy.
I could see a limit like: 10 spells x ability bonus for example.
Or better yet! How about something that scales with level but limits amount of spells to reasonable limit:
A wizard can know up to 3 spells per rank in Spellcraft. A wizard can learn spells beyond that limit, but each such spell costs 10 times more than normally.


You also didn't indicate what is the maximium level of invocations. Given that the max level of invocations is L 5, a progression of +1 level every 4 levels works well, offset from the increased invocation caster level.Maximum level of invocations is of course 5, because there no 6 and 7th level spells that can be used as invocations. Also, a separate progression for invocations is not necessary, since the one for spells can be used equally well.


You have a number of invocations that have long durations -- in effect, these spells will be up on everyone at nearly all times. Yes.


Might you want to have some rules about these? (ie: minutes/level invocations are of indefinate duration. The wizard can maintain up to her caster level in such invocations at any one time, where cantrips count as half-level spells.)No, no extra rules. I tried that with my prodigy (warlock-like class) and it ended up being cumbersome. The invocation effect at all times isn't that different from a magic item, and if invocations are carefully tailored to a class, it won't cause any problems.


Lastly, I tweaked your table to give a new spell at every level. Your table had levels where your wizard didn't gain any spells. (8th to 9th, for example, or 11th to 12th).She still gains another things at those levels so it's not really a problem. Fighters don't gain extra feat at every level either. Besides, notice how my table uses the same progression for each spell level. KISS.

[Yakk]

I view spells per day as the "BaB" of the Wizard class. Having a day when you don't gain any spells per day seems disappointing to the player.

I updated my varient of your table -- in particular, the spells/day portion.

The Wizard now gains 1 spell of their highest level every single level. They start out with 1 more cantrip, and end with exactly the same number of spells.

Every spell level has the same progression. You gain a spell for each of the first 3 levels. On the 3rd spell of your current top circle, you gain 1 spell of the next-to-top circle. On the 4th level you gain a new level of spells.


No, no extra tables. A formula is acceptable, but the game should be easy, and tables /= easy.

Tables are simpler than complex formulas. And simple formulas will create a huge disincentive to know lower level spells.


I could see a limit like: 10 spells x ability bonus for example.
Or better yet! How about something that scales with level but limits amount of spells to reasonable limit:
A wizard can know up to 3 spells per rank in Spellcraft. A wizard can learn spells beyond that limit, but each such spell costs 10 times more than normally.

Will you allow wizards to "forget" low level spells? If you allow it, high level wizards will know as many high level spells as they want, and simply "forget" the weaker ones.

If you don't allow it, high level cheese wizards will save up their spells known slots at lower levels, and still know as many high level spells as they want.

You could restrict it to "you cannot know more 2nd level spells than 1st, 3rd than 2nd, etc", but that becomes somewhat of a bookkeeping nightmare.

You could boost the cost of knowing high level spells, but that quickly becomes a calculation nightmare...

You could say "a Wizard can know at most 8+ability bonus spells per spell level".

You could tone down my "learning a new spell" exponential cost formula, and simply say that is the cost of learning new spells. This creates a softcap.


Maximum level of invocations is of course 5, because there no 6 and 7th level spells that can be used as invocations. Also, a separate progression for invocations is not necessary, since the one for spells can be used equally well.

The issue I have with this is it makes the "new spell level" circles double-good. It seems to be a waste of a carrot, putting two carrots on the same level.


No, no extra rules. I tried that with my prodigy (warlock-like class) and it ended up being cumbersome. The invocation effect at all times isn't that different from a magic item, and if invocations are carefully tailored to a class, it won't cause any problems.

But it is a free magic item given to everyone of the class.

So every nearly every Wizard will have flame shield, mage armor, telepathic bonds up at all times? (they only cost spells known, not spells/day)

Maybe if you forced the Wizard to expend one spell/day in order to have the ability availiable for use all day?

[Szatany]

Tables are simpler than complex formulas. And simple formulas will create a huge disincentive to know lower level spells.Might create. Depends on a formula. Now I know simply giving a wizard pool of spells known without supervision isn't a good idea. But if they had, lets say up to 5+Int bonus spells known from each spell level? What if we take it a step further and say that every spell castable as invocation is treated as 3 spells for the purpose of the limit? Than a player would choose his invocations carefully and the possible problem of a wizard having 25 spells he can cast at will would no longer exist.


Maybe if you forced the Wizard to expend one spell/day in order to have the ability availiable for use all day?

Perhaps invocations would be better as a separate ability. Meaning at 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th level a wizard chooses one spell known (it must still exist at list of invocations of course) and now can cast it as invocations. And by doing it this way we avoid your extra table.

[Yakk]

A sacrafice of a spell/day of the appropriate level (or higher) to gain that invocation seems pretty cheap, and removes any need for an extra table. It would mean that a Wizard would have a use for lower-than-max level invocations.

It would also provide a means to apply metamagic to invocations -- simply sacrafice the spell slot of the modified level.

Btw, here is a proposed alternate spells/day table:


Spells per day
Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1st 3 1 - - - - - -
2nd 3 2 - - - - - -
3rd 4 3 - - - - - -
4th 4 3 1 - - - - -
5th 4 3 2 - - - - -
6th 4 4 3 - - - - -
7th 4 4 3 1 - - - -
8th 4 4 3 2 - - - -
9th 4 4 4 3 - - - -
10th 4 4 4 3 1 - - -
11th 4 4 4 3 2 - - -
12th 4 4 4 4 3 - - -
13th 4 4 4 4 3 1 - -
14th 4 4 4 4 3 2 - -
15th 4 4 4 4 4 3 - -
16th 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 -
17th 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 -
18th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 -
19th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 1
20th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2


Note that the Wizard gains at least 1 spell every single level, every spell level has exactly the same progression, and it ends with exactly the same number of spells/day as your table did.

[Szatany]

Here's a revision of the spellcasting system (for wizard) that hopes to include fixes for perceived problems so far. Changes in red.

Spellcasting: A wizard casts arcane spells, which are drawn mainly from the wizard spell list, but also from all other lists. She casts spells from sorcerer/wizard list normally, but spells from other lists are cast at highest listed circle. For example, if a spell's level is Bard 2, Pal 3, Clr 4, a wizard casts that spell as Wiz 4.
To learn or cast a spell, a wizard must have a Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + half the wizard's level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day (excluding invocations, see below). The wizard doesn't receives bonus spells per day for having high Intelligence score. Like bard or cleric, a wizard may know a number of spells from each spell circle equal to 3 + her Int bonus. It is possible for her to learn spells above that limit, but the costs are high. Wizard's spell slots regenerate after good night's sleep. If she did not have such a luxury, she cannot fill emptied slots until she rests.
A wizard need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. She does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

Spells per day Caster Level Number of
Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 of invocations invocations known
1st 3 1 - - - - - - 1 1
2nd 3 2 - - - - - - 1 2
3rd 4 3 - - - - - - 2 2
4th 4 3 1 - - - - - 2 2
5th 4 3 2 - - - - - 3 3
6th 4 4 3 - - - - - 3 3
7th 4 4 3 1 - - - - 4 3
8th 4 4 3 2 - - - - 4 4
9th 4 4 4 3 - - - - 5 4
10th 4 4 4 3 1 - - - 5 4
11th 4 4 4 3 2 - - - 6 5
12th 4 4 4 4 3 - - - 6 5
13th 4 4 4 4 3 1 - - 7 5
14th 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - 7 6
15th 4 4 4 4 4 3 - - 8 6
16th 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 - 8 6
17th 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - 9 7
18th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 - 9 7
19th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 10 7
20th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 10 8

Learning New Spells: A wizard can learn any spell, but doing so is very expensive and time consuming. Learning a spell requires expenditure of gold equal to spell's circle squared x 50 (or 25 gp in case of 0-circle spells) for special rare materials. In addition, the wizard must either have a teacher (another spellcaster who knows the spell), a scroll with the spell (which is destroyed in the process of learning it), or spend a number of days equal to spell's circle squared on developing the spell from scratch (6 hours for a 0-circle spell).
If a wizard attempts to learn a spell and she already reached her limit of spells known for that spell level, multiply gold cost by 10.
A newly created 1st level wizard knows a number of 1st circle spells equal to his Int bonus and the same number of 0-circle spells.
Spellbooks: Spells are difficult to contain in memory. Every day a wizard must study her spellbook for 1 hour (this can be done at any time of day, but a wizard must not be fatigued or otherwise tired). Studying spells written in the book allows the wizard to refresh her memory and keep her spellcasting abilities at peek efficiency. For each day the wizard does not study her spellbook, her caster level is reduced by 1 when determining effects of spells, unless she studies her spellbook for an hour.

Invocations: A wizard can cast some spells as invocations. That means that she doesn't need to spend a slot of an appropriate circle to cast that spell. Any spell cast as invocation uses reduced caster level, as shown on table above. A wizard can cast invocations even if she has no slots left.
At 1st level, a wizard learns how to cast one 0-circle spell from the list below as invocation (provided she knows that spell).
At 2nd level, and every 3 levels thereafter, a wizard learns how to cast another spell from the list below as invocation. A wizard can choose a spell she doesn't yet know, but she is unable to cast it until she learns it. She cannot, however, choose a spell she can't yet cast because her class level is too low to access that circle of spells.
List of spells a wizard can cast as invocations:
0 circle - Acid Splash, Daze, Flare, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Resistance, Touch of Fatigue.
1st circle - Mage Armor, True Strike, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Cause Fear, Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Jump, Magic Weapon
2nd circle - Melf's Acid Arrow, Daze Monster, Touch of Idiocy, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Scare, Protection from Arrows
3rd circle - Dispel Magic, Sleet Storm, Hold Person, Rage, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch, Flame Arrow, Keen Edge
4th circle - Crushing Despair, Bestow Curse, Fire Shield, Ice Storm, Shout, Contagion, Enervation, Fear
5th circle - Dismissal, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Bigby's Interposing Hand, Cone of Cold, Blight, Waves of Fatigue, Telekinesis.

[Morty]

So, basically wizard can now cast any spell he knows like a sorcerer, but it's much harder to learn new spells? That's interesting, as well as invocations.

[Szatany]

So, basically wizard can now cast any spell he knows like a sorcerer, but it's much harder to learn new spells? That's interesting, as well as invocations.
Basically, yeah. Assuming a 20th level wizard has 30 Int, she can know 13 spells from each circle (13x8=104 spells known). If she really needs more she can spend mountains of gold to do that (24500 gp for a surplus 7th level spell :) ). In addition, she can know 8 spells that she can cast like warlock, which will most likely be 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5.

I also renamed "spell level" to "circle", to makes stuff easier to comprehend. I know some people had problems with it (not only here, but in PHB as well).

[Black Mage]

So are you making all your full caster classes only have a max spell level of 7? If so, then you are my hero. I've always despised the full casters "I win" button. But what happens when casters in your classes go epic? Do they still have a chance to create epic spells, or are you getting rid of the epic spellcasting system as well?

[Szatany]

Yes, 8th and 9th level spells are G-One. Haven't thought of epic magic - when I'm done with classes and have time, I'd love to rewrite epic rules to makes them much weaker (read: in line with melee epic feats).

[Fizban]

I also renamed "spell level" to "circle", to makes stuff easier to comprehend. I know some people had problems with it (not only here, but in PHB as well).

Actually I find it much harder to comprehend. While it might be a bit confusing at first, "spell level" is the standard. Reading the phrase "price equal to spell circle squared x.." confuses the heck out of me. At least calling it the "spell circle" would make it clear that it's an aspect of a spell. Circle could mean just about anything: school, class list, level, subtype, etc. Spell level means just that: the level of the spell.

[Szatany]

Actually I find it much harder to comprehend. While it might be a bit confusing at first, "spell level" is the standard. Reading the phrase "price equal to spell circle squared x.." confuses the heck out of me. At least calling it the "spell circle" would make it clear that it's an aspect of a spell. Circle could mean just about anything: school, class list, level, subtype, etc. Spell level means just that: the level of the spell.
Yeah, you're not the only one who's complaining about it. I consider it a failed experiment and change it back.

EDIT: Done some refinements: altered the main table a little, added spell matrix as a 1st level ability, incorporated all those new changes to spellcasting, changed minor details in few arcanas.

[Yakk]

Issue: Wizard can still afford to buy 10 extra L 6 spells by spending half of their accumulated SRD wealth-gain on spells while L 6 is their top spell level.

Ie, some serious crunching with the wealth by encounter tables and max spell levels still needs to be done to determine the right costs for spells, and how much the spell costs should go up past the softcap.

[Szatany]

Hmmm, maybe doubling the base cost would solve the problem. I'm not sure how to check if that's a good number, but maybe I'll think of something.

[Yakk]

Here is the SRD treasure by encounter:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm

I can't find the WBL guildlines under an open lisence, so I just use the treasure by encounter for the purposes of discussion. :)

One should expect to gain 3 and 1/3 shares of an even-CR encounter's worth of treasure during your level (this is an approximation, but not that far off.)

Assume the spellcasting player spends 1/2 of their WBL on new top-level spells as they progress. That will give you a decent upper limit on how much money a character should be able to buy spells with.

Next, we want to fit a curve to it. I suspect high level spells will end up as being extremely expensive.

To prevent the "oh my god, I got a spellbook, I'm rich", note that you cannot learn spells directly from someone else's spellbook. The process of learning a new spell requires personalized magical formula and diagrams. You could even go further, and say that the process of decoding and copying from either a spellbook or a scroll destroys the source in both cases -- so then a spellbook is worth less than a set of scrolls with the spells on them, on the open market.

[Szatany]

Ok, according to a table in DMG, a 20th level wizard should have 760000 gold. If we expect her to spend 380k on spells, and assuming a 20th level wizard has 30 INT, then:

- She begins play with 4x1 level spells and 4x0 level spells on average.

- Can learn normally 13 spells from each level. That leaves us with 7-7-13-13-13-13-13-13 spells she has to pay for.

7x25g + 7x50g + 13x4x50g + 13x9x50g + 13x16x50g + 13x25x50g + 13x36x50g + 13x49x50g = 175 + 350 + 2600 + 5850 + 10400 + 16250 + 23400 + 31850 = 90875.

That leave her with 380000 - 90875 = 289125. If a single 7th level extra spell costs 49 x 500g = 24500g, then a wizard can afford 11 of them.
That's too good.

I have some ideas what to do about it, but it will have to wait.

Solution 1: Increase base cost of spells. xxx

Solution 2: Increase cost of extra spells. xxx

Solution 3: Decrease number of spells known. xxx

Solution 4: Introduce limit of extra spells known. xxx

[Yakk]

Ok, according to a table in DMG, a 20th level wizard should have 760000 gold. If we expect her to spend 380k on spells, and assuming a 20th level wizard has 30 INT, then:

- She begins play with 4x1 level spells and 4x0 level spells on average.

- Can learn normally 13 spells from each level. That leaves us with 7-7-13-13-13-13-13-13 spells she has to pay for.

7x25g + 7x50g + 13x4x50g + 13x9x50g + 13x16x50g + 13x25x50g + 13x36x50g + 13x49x50g = 175 + 350 + 2600 + 5850 + 10400 + 16250 + 23400 + 31850 = 90875.

That leave her with 380000 - 90875 = 289125. If a single 7th level extra spell costs 49 x 500g = 24500g, then a wizard can afford 11 of them.
That's too good.

I have some ideas what to do about it, but it will have to wait.

Solution 1: Increase base cost of spells. xxx

Solution 2: Increase cost of extra spells. xxx

Solution 3: Decrease number of spells known. xxx

Solution 4: Introduce limit of extra spells known. xxx

I really like the idea of balancing Wizard's spells based off WBL.

Amoung other things, it means that a Wizard's power is constrained by some of the same things that constrain the other classes. In a poor campaign, the Wizard will have less spells.

Question: Should temporary boosts allow additional spells known, or only inherit boosts?

I'd vote no -- headbands of intellect are already useful to grant the wizard higher CRs and more spells/day.

...

So our Wizard's int:
L 1: 16 (+3)
L 4: 17
L 8: 18 (+4)
L 12: 19+1 Tome=20 (+5)
L 16: 20+2 Tome=22 (+6)
L 20: 21+5 Tome=26 (+8)

Wizards will probably spend their WBL on buying their top circle of spells.

Let's go with 5+int bonus spells per circle. The number of spells the Wizard is expected to be able to afford will be:

L 3: 4/4
L 6: 0/0/8
L 9: 1/1/1/9
L 12: 1/1/1/1/10
L 15: 0/0/0/0/0/10
L 18: 1/1/1/1/1/1/11
L 20: 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/13

Cantrips are gimpy so they should be cheap. Let's make them cost 1/4 as much as L 1 spells.

Folding cantrips into L 1 spells, we get:
L 3: 5
L 6: 0/8
L 9: 2/1/9
L 12: 1/1/1/10
L 15: 0/0/0/10
L 18: 1/1/1/1/1/11
L 20: 3/2/2/2/2/2/13

Each of these have to be purchased using the wealth since the last level on this table.

Let's neglect the lower-than-max level spells:
L 3: 5 * L 1
L 6: 8 * L 2
L 9: 9 * L 3
L 12: 10 * L 4
L 15: 10 * L 5
L 18: 11 * L 6
L 20: 13 * L 7

So, for a first approximation of how much it should cost, simply figure out how much wealth a character should make over those intervals, and divide by 2.

(this uses the CR-based treasure table, and assumes 3.33 even-CR treasures per level).

L 1 to 3: About 6,000 gp. 6000/2/5 is 600 gp per L 1 spell.
L 4 to 6: About 16,000 gp. 16000/2/8 is 1000 gp per L 2 spell.
L 7 to 9: About 35,000 gp. 35000/2/9 is 2000 gp per L 3 spell.
L 10 to 12: About 77,000 gp. 77k/2/10 is about 4000 gp per L 4 spell.
L 13 to 15: About 175 kgp. About 8000 gp per L 5 spell.
L 16 to 18: About 370 kgp. About 11000 gp per L 6 spell.
L 19 to 20: About 470 kgp. About 18000 gp per L 7 spell.

Now, we neglected lower level spells, so the above curve will be a bit expensive.

So, for an affordable yet expensive spell scribing cost:
L 0: 100 gp
L 1: 400 gp
L 2: 800 gp
L 3: 1500 gp
L 4: 3000 gp
L 5: 6000 gp
L 6: 9000 gp
L 7: 12000 gp

This is for spells up to (5+no-item-int-bonus) per spell level. Each spell beyond that costs 5 times as much.

Now, to buy 13 spells for each level, it costs 426,400 gp.

Gah -- I was in error. I should have added L 1 to 2, 3 to 5, etc instead of L 1 to 3, 4 to 6.


Noting that treasure value goes up about 30% per spell level, I should cut the spell costs by about that much. And while I am at it, let's drop the costs a bit at low levels and boost them at the top:

Attempt #2:
So, for an affordable yet expensive spell scribing cost:
L 0: 50 gp
L 1: 200 gp
L 2: 400 gp
L 3: 800 gp
L 4: 1500 gp
L 5: 3000 gp
L 6: 6000 gp
L 7: 12000 gp

5x cost for extra spells.

That's about 300,000 gp to buy 13 spells at each spell level by L 20. That leaves 80,000 gp in the budget. Learning a single extra L 7 spell costs 60,000 gp -- not something the character wants to do all that much. :)

...

Can you test that against the DMG wealth-by-level at L 2, 5, 8, 11, 15, 17 and 20?

[Szatany]

I'm wondering if we are not overlooking one important thing:
Since casters have no way (outside items IIRC) to gain extra 7th level slots, even if he knows 20 of them, could he be broken if he can use them only twice per day? And we are talking about 7th level spells, core sorcerers can cast three 9th level spells at the same level (they know only 6, but don't spend any gold on them).

[Yakk]

Don't these characters get bonus spells?

Second, standard sorcerers can cast "I win" during the opponents turn before the opponent gets to attack. This is not the balance point you should aim for. :)

In any case, one of the important reasons to restrict how many spells a character knows is to make the bookkeeping more reasonable. And there is a really wonderful flavour in making a wizard's spellbook actually expensive and cherished (to the tune of half the Wizard's WBL).

If you want to make up for this large cost, give the Wizard more points to make their own magic items, and restrict these magic items to be only useful to the Wizard...

[Szatany]

Don't these characters get bonus spells?
No they don't.


Second, standard sorcerers can cast "I win" during the opponents turn before the opponent gets to attack. This is not the balance point you should aim for. :)An example please? And don't use 8-9 lvl spells in it ;).


In any case, one of the important reasons to restrict how many spells a character knows is to make the bookkeeping more reasonable. And there is a really wonderful flavour in making a wizard's spellbook actually expensive and cherished (to the tune of half the Wizard's WBL).I know, but if the only thing you have to do is to write down what you know, not what you know and prepare, then keeping 10-15 spells per level (80-120 total) isn't that bad. Or more precisely: It's not that good, but reducing that number would go to far against spirit of D&D.


If you want to make up for this large cost, give the Wizard more points to make their own magic items, and restrict these magic items to be only useful to the Wizard...

They already have essence pool, that's enough. And remember that whatever we speak about here will apply to other casters eventualy.

[Yakk]

And we are talking about 7th level spells, core sorcerers can cast three 9th level spells at the same level (they know only 6, but don't spend any gold on them).

I was talking about core sorcerers, not sorcerers. :)

However, you want me to win as an immediate action with 7th level or lower spells? As usual, it takes a particular set of moves.

But in any case, celerity gives you bonus actions, and I think there is a 4th level one. Dimensional anchor, force cage, and contingency.

You can, as an immediate action, take an action. This involves casting force cage with a contingent cast of dimensional anchor (assuming you are afraid of the target teleporting).

Now your target is trapped within a nearly indestructable cage and cannot teleport out.

This is limited to creatures smaller than 20' in size. Only a handful of items/spells can defeat the cage.

...

Note that against other beings with "I win" buttons, "I win" buttons work less well. An "I win" button is any way to make a target useless with high reliability, ideally as an immediate action. Usually an "I win" button has a narrow set of abilities that can defeat it.

...

Second, not every spellcaster need have the same set of special abilities. While every character of a class should have a restricted spell list (and especially a restricted set of spells prepared at any one time) for sanities sake.

I just really like the idea of a Wizard's spellbook being a huge chunk of a Wizard's wealth -- just like the armor and weapons of a melee character is a huge chunk of a melee character's wealth. Balancing this against spontaneous casters is an interesting problem, I'll admit.

[Isufwrahi]

Is there a page or website with a compilation of all your variant/ultimate classes, I seem to remember seeing one a while back but I can't find it now and I have to convince my DM to take a look at it :smallsmile:

P.S. How do I subscribe to your newsletter I keep seeing mentioned?

[Black Mage]

Heh, I told my friend about this class that I will be using in my upcoming campaign. First I told him about the invocations, and he got this happy little glint in his eyes. Then when I said that there were no 8th and 9th levels spells, you should have heard his whimper and seen the look on his face...it was priceless. Thank you once again Szatany. :biggrin:

[Szatany]

But in any case, celerity gives you bonus actions, and I think there is a 4th level one. Dimensional anchor, force cage, and contingency.

You can, as an immediate action, take an action. This involves casting force cage with a contingent cast of dimensional anchor (assuming you are afraid of the target teleporting).

Now your target is trapped within a nearly indestructable cage and cannot teleport out.

This is limited to creatures smaller than 20' in size. Only a handful of items/spells can defeat the cage. What a mess. Can't they even design a game that is difficult to "win"? I'd hate to clean after the WotC, but I suggest banning troublesome spells (especially spells from outside phb). In case of forcecage, fix is simple: add Reflex negates.



I just really like the idea of a Wizard's spellbook being a huge chunk of a Wizard's wealth -- just like the armor and weapons of a melee character is a huge chunk of a melee character's wealth. Balancing this against spontaneous casters is an interesting problem, I'll admit.
I know, but remember that most other classes don't have spellbooks and will not be hindered by that rule, while still have to be balanced as much as wizards.


Is there a page or website with a compilation of all your variant/ultimate classes, I seem to remember seeing one a while back but I can't find it now and I have to convince my DM to take a look at it :smallsmile:

P.S. How do I subscribe to your newsletter I keep seeing mentioned?News to me :). And no, I don't have a website.


Heh, I told my friend about this class that I will be using in my upcoming campaign. First I told him about the invocations, and he got this happy little glint in his eyes. Then when I said that there were no 8th and 9th levels spells, you should have heard his whimper and seen the look on his face...it was priceless. Thank you once again Szatany. :biggrin:
You're welcome :). Ready for bard or knight? (which one first?)

[Yakk]

What a mess. Can't they even design a game that is difficult to "win"? I'd hate to clean after the WotC, but I suggest banning troublesome spells (especially spells from outside phb). In case of forcecage, fix is simple: add Reflex negates.

:)

Note that even without "I win", lots of spells are pretty damn close to "I win". Being able to cast "mass save or lose" is quite possible with 7th level spells (as an example, prismatic spray). The ability of a pure caster to buff their DC-increasing ability is better than the ability of everyone else to buff all 4 of their spell defences (reflex, will, fort, touch). And the caster gets to pick which defence they are attacking.

Basically, I am argueing that you shouldn't be basing your balance off of core spellcasters. Even without "I win" combos...


I know, but remember that most other classes don't have spellbooks and will not be hindered by that rule, while still have to be balanced as much as wizards.

Sure. And you can have them sacrafice wealth equivilent in order to gain spells. The Wizard's main restriction is her spellbook -- she loses it, she is in trouble. Other classes have other restrictions (your Druids with the nature but, Clerics and Paladins with alignment restrictions, etc) that can be made as interesting.

The sorcerer is tricky to balance with such a weakness, but it could probably be done. As an example, you could make the sorcerer use "fetishes" or "focuses" to use his abilities fully.

Basically, a character class should have some kind of restrictions -- either roleplaying or physical.