Touch Attack Question

[Pinkcrusade]

The Soul Eater class is based around making touch attacks to bestow negative levels upon enemies, and you are required to have a natural weapon as a prerequisite. I was wondering about the rules about making melee touch attacks and not just a 'normal attack', are there any rules preventing me from just going up and making a melee natural weapon touch attack (1d20 + BAB + Strength vs Touch AC) to deliver the Energy Drain? I would be planning to deliver multiple touch attacks in one round (involving monk, snap kick and the like), but this is all hinging on the rules relating to melee touch attacks.

Thanks.

[Grayson01]

A Monks Unarmed Strike counts as a Natural weapon.

It would also depend on the wording of the class feature what book is it from?

[Grayson01]

Okay I checked online at the only site I can get on at work. And this is the class feature I found.

Energy Drain (Su): A soul eater gains the ability to drain energy, bestowing negative levels upon its victims. Beginning at 1st level, the touch of a soul eater bestows one negative level on its target. At 7th level the Soul eater bestows two negative levels with a touch

With my reading from this it's any touch, so ether a melee touch attack or a strike with a Unarmed attack would cause the level drain.

Now this is the text for Touch Attacks from the SRD

Touch Attacks
Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

it was under the Unarmed attack section for standared action, whioch can be made in a fullattack, it does not say that you can or can't make a fullattack with Touch attacks but from the way they are grouped I would interpret that to mean you can.

So I would say that you could make an unarmed strike or an unarmed touch attack with a fullattack. So ether a Monk with Flurry of blows or Use the **Unarmed swordsage** to qualify. Also you could preform an unarmed strike standared action or fullattacks and Apply Damage and the level drain.

[Tokiko Mima]

The Soul Eater class is based around making touch attacks to bestow negative levels upon enemies, and you are required to have a natural weapon as a prerequisite. I was wondering about the rules about making melee touch attacks and not just a 'normal attack', are there any rules preventing me from just going up and making a melee natural weapon touch attack (1d20 + BAB + Strength vs Touch AC) to deliver the Energy Drain? I would be planning to deliver multiple touch attacks in one round (involving monk, snap kick and the like), but this is all hinging on the rules relating to melee touch attacks.

Thanks.

Soul Eater Energy Drain (Su) is a standard action per the general rules about Supernatural abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities). You need not have any special natural attack form for the prestige class, you just need to have a Weapon Focus feat applied to a natural weapon of some kind as a feat prerequisite. Effectively all you do is reach out and touch your foe barehanded to invoke the magic.

Energy Drain is NOT a melee attack and you can't use it as part of a full attack. You cannot deliver it as an unarmed strike, snap kick, AoO, or any other attack form. You get one Energy Drain touch attack per standard action per round.

[NoACWarrior]

I think you are thinking of spell effects, not Su actions.

If you have a touch spell effect ongoing and remaining touches left (or have a touch weapon) you can "likely" apply that touch spell effect on all natural attacks and unarmed strikes.

I say likely, because the rules don't go over iterative attack enabled weapon like spells. I also say likely because there are some special natural attacks and special attacks which don't specifically count as unarmed attacks and thus can't benifit from the touch spell delivery on natural attack / unarmed attack.

[Grayson01]

Soul Eater Energy Drain (Su) is a standard action per the

Energy Drain is NOT a melee attack and you can't use it as part of a full attack. You cannot deliver it as an unarmed strike, snap kick, AoO, or any other attack form. You get one Energy Drain touch attack per standard action per round.

You can deliver it as an unarmed strike, an touch spell or touch attack can be delivered as an unarm strike per the SRD.
"Actions In Combat :: d20srd.org
A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count ...
[url]www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities)
Lich :: d20srd.org"
And this is from the wizards web site on the rules Unarmed Attacks and Touch Spells

As Rules of the Game has noted before, you can use an unarmed attack to deliver a spell with touch range. You make the unarmed attack as you would normally. Your unarmed attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity because you're delivering a touch spell. If your attack roll is high enough to hit your target's regular Armor Class (not just its touch Armor Class), you deal unarmed strike damage and you also deliver the spell. If your attack roll fails to hit your target's regular Armor Class, the attack fails. It deals no damage and you don't deliver the spell either. You are, however, still holding the spell, just as if you failed with a touch attack.

[Telonius]

BoVD came out kind of halfway between the upgrade between 3.0 and 3.5, so having both rules might be helpful. Here's the relevant wording for Energy Drain from the 3.0 SRD:


Most energy drains require a successful melee attack—mere physical contact is not enough.
Each successful energy draining attack bestows one or more negative levels on the opponent. A creature suffers the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:


... and from 3.5:


Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect). These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour.

I think there is a slightly gray area in the rules there. The ability is delivered through an attack roll - that's not contested. The question would be whether or not there can be more than one drain per round if you use iterative attacks - if it's keyed to attack specifically. The text kind of dances around it, but it doesn't say one way or the other. Even more unfortunately, most of the monsters in the MM who have the ability, have only a single Natural Weapon, so that doesn't tell us anything. Under the Vampire entry (a case where the example character could actually be a guide), it specifically says that vampires can make one energy drain per round. So, is that sentence there in confirmation of a general rule (only one per round, meaning it's a standard action to activate), or is it a specific exception to a general rule (it applies to every attack)? I'd rule that - because it doesn't specifically say it's keyed to attack rolls - it activates on a standard action. But I can see how someone might rule otherwise.


Generally, an unarmed attack (whether touch or not) provokes an Attack of Opportunity. There are specific exceptions: delivering a Touch spell, being a Monk, having Improved Unarmed Attack, and using a natural weapon. Soul Eater doesn't specify that you have to use the Natural Weapon to deliver the Energy Drain, so you could use an unarmed attack. It does require Weapon Focus in a natural weapon, so using that weapon to deliver the attack would not provoke an attack of opportunity. But if you happen to have a Soul Eater who's not a Monk, and doesn't have the Improved Unarmed Strike ability, and who (for whatever reason) is trying to deliver it through a regular unarmed attack instead of using the natural weapon ... would it be close enough to a touch spell that it wouldn't provoke? I'd rule it didn't provoke, but I don't know of any specific text that would settle the matter.

[TuggyNE]

You can deliver it as an unarmed strike, an touch spell or touch attack can be delivered as an unarm strike per the SRD.
"Actions In Combat :: d20srd.org
A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count ...
www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm
Lich :: d20srd.org"
And this is from the wizards web site on the rules Unarmed Attacks and Touch Spells

As Rules of the Game has noted before, you can use an unarmed attack to deliver a spell with touch range. You make the unarmed attack as you would normally. Your unarmed attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity because you're delivering a touch spell. If your attack roll is high enough to hit your target's regular Armor Class (not just its touch Armor Class), you deal unarmed strike damage and you also deliver the spell. If your attack roll fails to hit your target's regular Armor Class, the attack fails. It deals no damage and you don't deliver the spell either. You are, however, still holding the spell, just as if you failed with a touch attack.

All of this is entirely irrelevant, since it's not a touch attack spell.

It's an activated Supernatural ability with no listed activation time. Therefore, it uses a standard action, and allows a single melee touch attack (not an attack action, just an attack roll) as part of the ability. End of story.

[Anlashok]

It's an activated Supernatural ability with no listed activation time.
The problem is there's nothing in the text that indicates that.

[Red Fel]

The problem is there's nothing in the text that indicates that.

Actually, that's precisely what the text indicates. It indicates that it is a supernatural (Su) ability, and it does not indicate an activation time.

And the rule on (Su) abilities has been stated already (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities), but merits repeating:
Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.
(Emphasis added.)

The Soul Eater's Energy Drain ability is a (Su) ability, with no listed action time. That means it's a standard action.

[Anlashok]

Actually, that's precisely what the text indicates. It indicates that it is a supernatural (Su) ability, and it does not indicate an activation time.

And the rule on (Su) abilities has been stated already (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities), but merits repeating:
(Emphasis added.)

The Soul Eater's Energy Drain ability is a (Su) ability, with no listed action time. That means it's a standard action.

Yes, that rule is true for Su abilities that require an action to activate... however, the ability in question has nothing to indicate that it is in the first place.

Now, if the ability said, for instance "You can make a touch attack to inflict negative levels (etc.)" I'd agree with you completely that we'd default it to a standard action.

The text in question however merely says that you inflict negative levels "with a touch". There's nothing at all about an activation or use condition in the slightest, which leans a proper reading toward the ability applying to any touch, including unarmed strikes and spells delivered through touch attacks, because it's not an attack.

The ability reads more like the Spirit Shaman's Ghost Warrior or Follow the Guide than the dragonfire adept's breath weapon.

[Grayson01]

All of this is entirely irrelevant, since it's not a touch attack spell.

It's an activated Supernatural ability with no listed activation time. Therefore, it uses a standard action, and allows a single melee touch attack (not an attack action, just an attack roll) as part of the ability. End of story.

You really need to get off your high horse! "End of Story"!? Seriously?

Second that's not the end of story there is plenty of argument to be made and RAW to bed made that a Touch Attack Supernatural or Touch Spell can be made with an Unarmed Strike.

[Harrow]

The Soul Eater's Energy Drain ability is a (Su) ability, with no listed action time. That means it's a standard action.

It has a given activation of anytime you touch someone.

[Cloud]

It's a supernatural ability, not a touch spell.

It takes a discrete standard action to use the effect and touch someone, you can't use a natural attack at the same time, you can't make iterative attacks (you're not full attacking), and you can't keep a charge in your hand like a touch spell.

[TuggyNE]

Now, if the ability said, for instance "You can make a touch attack to inflict negative levels (etc.)" I'd agree with you completely that we'd default it to a standard action.

The text in question however merely says that you inflict negative levels "with a touch".

On the other hand, if the text said "Every touch you make inflicts a negative level", I'd agree that it would be a non-activated ability, but "with a touch" sounds an awful lot like "you use this ability to touch the enemy (once) and affect them". Unfortunately, any ambiguity here tends toward standard-action activation.


You really need to get off your high horse! "End of Story"!? Seriously?

Fair enough, I could have mentioned that it does rely on the (IMO, reasonable) assertion that it's an activated ability.


Second that's not the end of story there is plenty of argument to be made and RAW to bed made that a Touch Attack Supernatural or Touch Spell can be made with an Unarmed Strike.

OK, then, I don't know, make your argument! Correct me if I am wrong. But simply saying "there are arguments" is not particularly convincing.

[Anlashok]

On the other hand, if the text said "Every touch you make inflicts a negative level", I'd agree that it would be a non-activated ability, but "with a touch" sounds an awful lot like "you use this ability to touch the enemy (once) and affect them". Unfortunately, any ambiguity here tends toward standard-action activation.

It's definitely unfortunately vague and incredibly badly written. It reads like fluff text rather than rules text.... I don't however agree that the ambiguity points that way simply because nothing seems to indicate an active quality and merely points out what happens "on a touch". My problem, essentialy, is that unlike other abilities where we look to the standard action as a default the text doesn't imply you ever making any sort of attack. Plus, as I said, that'd indicate things like Follow the Guide would force you to burn a standard to save if we took that interpretation to the extreme and to other abilities.

However... I've seen an adage along the lines of "If there's ambiguous RAW pick the less stupid option" and being able to dump ten negative levels on a flurry of blows is pretty damn stupid though, even if monks could use the help.

[TuggyNE]

Plus, as I said, that'd indicate things like Follow the Guide would force you to burn a standard to save if we took that interpretation to the extreme and to other abilities.

Some things are dysfunctional like that, such as RKV's extra swift actions coming at the cost of a standard action.


However... I've seen an adage along the lines of "If there's ambiguous RAW pick the less stupid option" and being able to dump ten negative levels on a flurry of blows is pretty damn stupid though, even if monks could use the help.

That's reasonable too.