Optimizing a City-Guard

[heavyfuel]

I've seen it mention here that the best class for guards is the Ranger and not a Warrior or Fighter. For the cost of 1hp per level and heavy armor you get a class that has Spot, Listen, Search and Use Rope as class skills, as well as the skill points to get them.

However, if you were to create "the ultimate guard" of sorts, how would go around doing?

The Catch: No spells above lv3, and no PrCs that give you rapid spell progression like Ur-Priest

[Sir Chuckles]

I feel like I'm missing something.

But really, optimizing city guards can vary depending on the setting, player playstyle, play optimization, and basically every other variable that one D&D table has from another.

That said, any properly made Tier 1 class makes the best city guard, due to sheer power.

There would be no crime in a city where an Anthropomorphic Bat Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 is the guard captain.

[heavyfuel]

I feel like I'm missing something.

But really, optimizing city guards can vary depending on the setting, player playstyle, play optimization, and basically every other variable that one D&D table has from another.

That said, any properly made Tier 1 class makes the best city guard, due to sheer power.

There would be no crime in a city where an Anthropomorphic Bat Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 is the guard captain.

Hahahaha. It was missing. I accidentally pressed enter and it created the thread when I wasn't finished. Anyhow... I've edited it now.

[Incanur]

According to the demographics in the DMG, most city guards will be level-1 warriors. Warriors don't make great city guards because of their lack of detection skills.

The ranger does strike me as solid city guard, but cities have relatively few rangers (again according to DMG demographics).

A ranger with an urban companion would be a strong non-full-caster choice.

[heavyfuel]

According to the demographics in the DMG, most city guards will be level-1 warriors. Warriors don't make great city guards because of their lack of detection skills.

The ranger does strike me as solid city guard, but cities have relatively few rangers (again according to DMG demographics).

There's always the Urban Rangers from UA and the ACFs presented in the CS Web. I think it's safe to assume there are more of these guys in the city than regular rangers.

[Incanur]

A ranger 4 with an urban companion would make a great city guard like I mentioned, but only metropolis would have more than a handful of such characters. Urban rangers in general would be my recommendation for fulfilling the archetype while also performing decently mechanically. Casters can likely do it better, as usual, but your iconic city guard ain't a wizard or cleric.

[Yorrin]

If I were to set up a guard house with free access to low level PC classes I'd have several binders with Improved Binding. One for Savnok to outfit them all and several with Malphus to get full visual coverage of the city via ravens. Naberius users to help talk down those that will listen to reason and break up fights/mobs, Leraje for all your archery needs, and Ronove for fast chases. And that's all assuming level one. Gain a couple levels and you've got Andromalus to help see through deceptions, Focalor for blasting and aquatic pursuit, or Paimon for a pretty scary low level combatant. For a single non-caster it's hard to match in terms of variety. The biggest weakness is the spot/listen skills not being on his class list. So multiclass with something that does for best results (Binder 1/Ranger 1 or Binder 1/Rogue 1 or Binder 1/Scout 1 depending on which vestiges you're planning to bind on that guard).

[JusticeZero]

Well, I could use some of this..
*my* setting is P8, and assumes that level 1 characters are common. 2 is elite, 3 is officer class, 4+ gets downright rare. Seems like a reasonable set of assumptions to use for NPCS. Mine bans spellcasters entirely in favor of psi, but the principles should be the same. Things will likely also depend on the distribution of phlebotinium in your setting - mine has lots of low power stuff around, with the bigger stuff mostly restricted. You might have Tippy craziness from not capping the levels down. Settings can get very surreal very fast when the level spread extends far.

[DMVerdandi]

Probably druids, clerics, or spell to power erudites.

Druids kick butt because once wild shape turns on, they are going to be able to shred encounters, and once level 6 hits with natural spell, it's over. Animal perks, great spellcasting. Oh, and animal companion


Clerics are good because they, like druids gain all of the spells on their list, so with planning, a group full of nothing but clerics has the ability to delegate roles based on spell selection.

Stp Erudites will have trouble initially due to UPD, but once you hit about 6, then everything is merry. With shadow conjuration and evocation, you have SO many spells right there at your fingertips. Add in utility for communication, scrying, and perhaps flight, and you can take on many an enemy. Not to mention they can do all of this in full plate.

[malonkey1]

Actually, I'd probably run a Factotum/Warblade, with or without Iaijutsu cheese. The Warblade levels offer maneuvers for quick takedowns of rabblerousers, while being a Factotum makes you the world's best detective, and at higher levels, a semi-competent everything else. Even if you ignore the magical stuff and focus on the mundane features, you have the start for an excellent city guard. If I were a mayor of a wealthy city, that's how I'd want my guards trained.

[OldTrees1]

Where would I find these guards?
Are they the local militia for a village of 0-1 level NPCs?
Perhaps they are the city guard for an 1-6 level city?
Are they the local lord's guards? If so, are we talking Kingpin, Dr Doom, or Vandal Savage here?
Perhaps we are talking about the guards of the legendary city?
Or might these be the guards of the high priestess know for resurrecting the dead?

[Sir Chuckles]

It also depends on what you're guarding in the city, especially district. And alignment (Do the guards have a license to kill? Or, by law, do that have to use non-lethal combat against all but truly violent crime?).

Because Monks make for great generic Jail and Slum Guards when you need nonlethal grapplers who shouldn't be carrying 10gp weapons.

[TiaC]

Well, I could use some of this..
*my* setting is P8, and assumes that level 1 characters are common. 2 is elite, 3 is officer class, 4+ gets downright rare. Seems like a reasonable set of assumptions to use for NPCS. Mine bans spellcasters entirely in favor of psi, but the principles should be the same. Things will likely also depend on the distribution of phlebotinium in your setting - mine has lots of low power stuff around, with the bigger stuff mostly restricted. You might have Tippy craziness from not capping the levels down. Settings can get very surreal very fast when the level spread extends far.

OK, make your officers Psion 3s. They should learn Dissolving Weapon and Merciful Power. Each guard is equipped with multiple light weapons, each of which will lay out an opponent without killing them. If they have any level 4s, empower it through wilder or overchannel. For real fun, put it on either alchemical weapons of bullets to avoid AC.

[Yogibear41]

Its my personal opinion, that guards should be 1st or 2nd level warriors, and I think optimizing ever single thing in a game is over-kill to the extreme. A 1st or 2nd level rogue should be able to rob most places(villages/towns) blind if he is smart about what he does(obviously the guy isn't going to be able to take 5 sets of full plate armor and walk out of a building). Now if he robs a magic shop or something that is asking for all kinds of trouble. But a mundanely guarded jewelry store should be pretty easy to work over really.

Ask yourself this: if that guy has 5 or more PC class levels, why is he working as a guard for probably less than 1 silver piece a day?

I could see a 1st level urban ranger start his career as a guard, but he plans to ever have any sort of advancement in levels he would need to find a new profession rather quickly. Even then its not like all the guards would be urban rangers, maybe the top 10% of them.

[Eladrinblade]

You all keep saying "city guard", when I think you mean "city watch". City guards, as in the military defenders of the city, should be warriors (normals) and fighters (elite), and the city watch should be experts (normal) and rogues (elite), with some combinations ocurring. Marshalls make good additions on both sides, and of course urban rangers are probably the best of both worlds. Now, if you want PC-level city guards/watchmen, then you're gonna want beguilers/binders/warblades/factotums/etc, as others have said, but that leaves little room for the PC's themselves (unless they're the criminals).

Let's say we have some big fancy city full of people and things that are more than Commoner 1's, and we want an extremely capable city guard/watch force. For the most elite cadre of "city guards" before you start getting into unique champions, I'd use Ruby Knight Windicators; they blend the sexy tankness of crusaders with the general tier-1ness of clerics, with a LN deity who would conceivably favor law and order. We'll say they're Crusader 4/Cleric 1/RKW 5's; that puts them below 11th (which is "legendary"). For your SWAT team, I'd use Factotum 3/Warblade 7's (with at least one warforged bear-totem barbarian 3/dungeoncrasher fighter 2/juggernaut 5, if the setting permits).

For sherlock holmes, I'd use a straight Factotum. For batman, I'd use a straight swordsage (unarmed, naturally). Of course, it wouldn't hurt to have some diviner/loremasters or cloistered clerics and artificers back at HQ for coordination/buffs/insertion/extraction/gear/info/healing. I'd still keep an urban ranger, just for some niche stuff that they might handle best, an undercover/crowd-control beguiler squad, and a big raging orog bear-totem barbarian/reaping mauler with grapple-focused feats and bracers of might/gloves of fearsome grip/monks belt for enemies who just won't go down. The rank and file city guard force (as in, the ones who protect the city from invasion) should be Fighter 2's, with longspear focus, combat reflexes, and hold-the-line. Just for completion, the city should have a CR 9 or 10 metallic dragon who can fly around and use it's secondary breath weapon on groups that have got out of hand (and regular dragon-ness during combat).

and of course I'd try to put some people in each squad who have two levels of marshall, and maybe some healers/bards (maybe).

[Kamin_Majere]

The question I have to ask first is...

Are you trying to set up the world where the PC's are useless?

Because if you are running cities and communities where PC classes are used as guards/leaders/criminals/etc then there isn't going to be much for a PC to do in a city like that. Why hire the PC's to stop the thieves guild when you have factotums and warblades for watch/investigators, and Sword Sages being vengeance in the night against evil doers, urban rangers as the run of the mill guards, and spell casters dedicated to protecting the city and its people?

D&D is set up where the common thief is more often Expert 2 than Rogue 1, and a typical thieves guild is ran by a git that is 5th level Expert2/Rogue3. Once you break out of this and see the world through PC tinted glasses entire systems break apart and basically does evolve into a Tippyverse sort of situation. I have a whole continent in my home brew setting and while it was great fun creating it, my players have visited it exactly twice in probably a decade. Its a TON of work, and if you assume competent rulers very little short of world ending destruction is possible with the set up (though it is very good for political intrigue and to be so high magic as to be a no magic place)

[Fouredged Sword]

Remeber, these guys are average joes. They are likely to have the flat array, and need to function with it.

I really like to make the city watch a bunch of feat rogue's wielding saps (non-lethal) and clubs (lethal) and leather armor, with a light crossbow or shortbow backup with blunt arrows. They have enough skill points to max out all relevant skills without having a high int - Spot, listen, forgery, Sense motive, gather info, diplomacy, intimidate, and profession (city watch), all with a 10 int.

Fighter feats net them improved grapple and improved unarmed strike, for dog piling a target and holding him down while your partner beats him into submission with his sap.

They fight smart and use superior numbers to take down and incapacitate stronger opponents. They don't take chances and prefer to fight as unfairly as possible.

At only 2nd level, they are cheep to hire, at 3sp a day, and are cheep to equip, with under 50gp in gear.

Stats in the elite array (for captains and squad leaders) are Con, Str, Dex, Wis, Int, Cha. Captains put higher emphasis on int and cha, and have an extra HD or two of rogue.

[JusticeZero]

Because characters quickly become extraordinary, they don't start that way from level 1. Actually, it's a lot better than in a 20 level game, where the world is full of stuff that can solo NPC-1 cities, in quantities big enough to appear as mooks for the players to mow through.
Plus, a significant bit of optimizing is going to happen in tactics and gear.

[Deaxsa]

Its my personal opinion, that guards should be 1st or 2nd level warriors, and I think optimizing ever single thing in a game is over-kill to the extreme. A 1st or 2nd level rogue should be able to rob most places(villages/towns) blind if he is smart about what he does(obviously the guy isn't going to be able to take 5 sets of full plate armor and walk out of a building). Now if he robs a magic shop or something that is asking for all kinds of trouble. But a mundanely guarded jewelry store should be pretty easy to work over really.

I agree, optimizing everything is ridiculous, but to assume that the PCs are the only ones who try to be good at what they do is equally ridiculous. Even that jeweler has many encounters, in which he makes appraise checks and helps out customers tot he best of his ability, he'll probably optimize to fit his needs. in his case, he'd probably only have even wanted to take this profession if he had the INT score to support it, and he'd probably take Skill focus: appraise to optimize his ability in that line of work.


Ask yourself this: if that guy has 5 or more PC class levels, why is he working as a guard for probably less than 1 silver piece a day?

Because everybody else has trained their skills to the extent he has, or greater, and so he'll have a tough time competing with them. Granted, this only works f you do NOT assume that serfs/proles/etc are actual level 1 commoners(the class), but rather experts and nobles(at least in class choice) and thugs, etc. Which is why i disagree with the idea that 90% of humans are below level 3... it seems internally inconsistent to have some people who are realy powerful, and others who want to do that just as much, yet.. don't. Why? Because Chewie lives on a moon with Ewoks. :smalltongue:


I could see a 1st level urban ranger start his career as a guard, but he plans to ever have any sort of advancement in levels he would need to find a new profession rather quickly. Even then its not like all the guards would be urban rangers, maybe the top 10% of them.

Would he? There are NPCs who study to gain levels, why could a guard not spend time practicing to gain levels? Especially since he's not a statue/rent-a-cop trying to gain XP, he's a policeman trying to gain XP, and believe you me, policemen get into scrapes all the time. Additionally, Retraining exists, so people who started as fighters could gain xp to learn the skills standard to the rest of the city guard.


NB: I play e6, so it's certainly easier. that said, I like to play with a demographic where about 90% of adults are above level 3. That's not to say they are all combat classes, just that they are experienced doing their job, and have attempted to learn how to best fulfill their role in society. It makes no sense to assume nobody(or damn near nobody) but the PCs and the BBEG are actually trying to gain experience in their field of expertise.


@OP: my favorite guard optimization (although, i will say, cleric hit-squads would work very well in a militaristic theocracy) is to take an urban ranger, and then take the favored terrain variant for urban terrain boni. For someone who's life revolves about having his ear to the ground and meting out law, this works very very well. You could even customize by swapping out the "guard dog" aka animal companion for stuff like a phynxkin, a familiar, increased HD, or w/e (obviously some of this goes into house rules and goes by DM)

[malonkey1]

Remeber, these guys are average joes. They are likely to have the flat array, and need to function with it.

I really like to make the city watch a bunch of feat rogue's wielding saps (non-lethal) and clubs (lethal) and leather armor, with a light crossbow or shortbow backup with blunt arrows. They have enough skill points to max out all relevant skills without having a high int - Spot, listen, forgery, Sense motive, gather info, diplomacy, intimidate, and profession (city watch), all with a 10 int.

Fighter feats net them improved grapple and improved unarmed strike, for dog piling a target and holding him down while your partner beats him into submission with his sap.

They fight smart and use superior numbers to take down and incapacitate stronger opponents. They don't take chances and prefer to fight as unfairly as possible.

At only 2nd level, they are cheep to hire, at 3sp a day, and are cheep to equip, with under 50gp in gear.

Stats in the elite array (for captains and squad leaders) are Con, Str, Dex, Wis, Int, Cha. Captains put higher emphasis on int and cha, and have an extra HD or two of rogue.

A low-ranking guard would be a basic Warrior 1 with a peasant array.

For a more optimized one, at level 3, I'd say you could use the following loadout:
Elite Array: Str 10 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 12 Cha 8
Human Fighter 1/Warlock 1/Fighter 1
[L1 Racial Bonus] Practiced Caster (Warlock) (this does advance Eldritch Blast according to Rich Baker (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/975156))
[L1] Martial Study (Maneuver may vary)
[L1 Fighter 1] Martial Stance (Stance may vary)
{L2 Warlock 1} Eldritch Blast, Invocation (Eldritch Glaive)
[L3] Weapon Finesse
[L3 Fighter 2] Martial Study (2nd-level maneuver).

This gives you a start for a martial glaivelock build that keeps full EB damage for its level, and the maneuvers and stance offer it a small set of tricks to use in combat. While Charisma is nominally important for Warlocks, it's largely unnecessary for this build, and honestly, Warlock is one of the few classes that could still theoretically function at all 3's (I wouldn't play it, though.)

[AnonymousPepper]

I personally never liked the NPC classes as a concept and thus generally avoid them if possible. I kinda flat-out ignore the part of the rules where it says that PC classes should be rare. There is absolutely no reason to make everybody who wields a sword a crappier version of a fighter, when fighters are poor themselves in the first place. I've actually never seen an adept. Experts, I use as a baseline for determining NPC laborers on the fly, but if I'm actually building the character, I'll never use it.

This is a fantasy world. There's no reason that everybody should be terrible at their jobs.

[Fouredged Sword]

For an average joe member of the watch, I think it is rather silly for them to have sold their soul to a devil for eldrich power and a single warlock HD. Personally, I think any class that has alignment restrictions won't be very practical for a guard. Any class that doesn't have the ability to be taught with minimal budget is also likely out.

Rogues, fighters, clerics, rangers, with the odd battle sorcerer gish (Dragon blood pops up all over the place). These are classes a guard could easily fit into. For a high magic setting, duskblades, wizards, and sorcerer's would also fit well.

[malonkey1]

For an average joe member of the watch, I think it is rather silly for them to have sold their soul to a devil for eldrich power and a single warlock HD. Personally, I think any class that has alignment restrictions won't be very practical for a guard. Any class that doesn't have the ability to be taught with minimal budget is also likely out.

Rogues, fighters, clerics, rangers, with the odd battle sorcerer gish (Dragon blood pops up all over the place). These are classes a guard could easily fit into. For a high magic setting, duskblades, wizards, and sorcerer's would also fit well.

I keep forgetting about Warlock fluff because I hate it. My bad.

[Slipperychicken]

LN Human Crusaders. Iron Guard's Glare, Shield Block, Tower Shield. Oh, you're trying to attack that wall of riot police? Great, you're taking -4 to hit and the guy just got +8 to his AC. That plus some good armor should make them practically untouchable to most NPC crooks (10 base AC + 4 armor + 4 shield + 8 shield block = 26 before dex).

Feats might involve Toughness and Troll-Blooded. If one guard gets too low on health, he can use his shield for total cover while his regeneration and allies' crusader strikes kick in. If that's too silly, then Point Blank Shot+Precise Shot so that guards can lay down fire from a distance (probably using slings, javelins, or composite bows so they can apply strength to damage. If using thrown weapons, then Brutal Throw might be worth consideration), even shooting enemies who are already surrounded by friendly guards.

Normal officers on patrol are most likely using light armor so they can try to chase suspects (and then shoot them if it doesn't look like they're getting caught), while the heavy armor only comes out when things get serious.

Abilities are probably Strength > Con > Dex > Cha > Wis > Int. I imagine they'd use the nonelite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), to represent the fact that the guard selects recruits for their ability scores, and has certain minimum fitness requirements.

Skills include Intimidate, and I'm not sure what else.

[AnonymousPepper]

Oh. Something else.

Consider taking the Tactical Soldier PrC from Miniatures Handbook, dropping the BAB requirement, and just making it a base class. It doesn't have PrC power levels at all, it really is more of a base class imo. Fluff-wise, it's perfect for guards and soldiers, and in terms of mechanics, it greatly, greatly rewards working in pairs or larger groups.

Town guard officers/commissars/whatever could be Marshals. The auras are quite nice and the class in general just fits the theme.

[Fouredged Sword]

I also like to make character progressions that make sense for a full length of a character's profesional life. As they advance they pick up abilities that fit naturally with their new roles.

City watch
Feat Rogue 2 -
Feats - improved unarmed strike, Improved Grapple, Toughness
Leather armor, sap, shortbow, club.

City watch Sargent
Feat Rogue 2 / fighter 2
Feats - Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Toughness, Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus (sap), Weapon Specialization (sap).
Brestplate, sap, longbow, longsword, light shield.

City Watch Captain
Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Marshal 2
Feats - Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Toughness, Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus (sap), Weapon Specialization (sap), Skill focus diplomacy, skill focus sense motive.
Brestplate, sap, longbow, longsword, light shield.

[TiaC]

I keep forgetting about Warlock fluff because I hate it. My bad.

Well, Warlock means oath-breaker, so I assume they cheated their way out of the deal.

[The Insanity]

Because if you are running cities and communities where PC classes are used as guards/leaders/criminals/etc then there isn't going to be much for a PC to do in a city like that.
I run cities and communities where PC classes are used for almost anything and my PCs still have more than enough to do.

[Fouredged Sword]

The town guard can't be everywhere, and they have other duties to attend to. Also, they don't answer to everyone, just the head of the watch. You want someone to go into the sewers and find your wife's wedding ring that washed into the sewers during a storm? Hire some level 1 adventurers. The guard doesn't have time for your personal problems!

[RegalKain]

I realize this may be in excess but. It kind of depends on what your "city guard" is, what city it is, I mean Sigil's idea of an "optimized guard" is going to be vastly different then Startington's "Optimized Guard" one deals with Epic Level casters, the other deals with level 1s who don't know how to brain all the time. Personally I've never subscribed to the DMG's word of law when it comes to city building and world building, because it makes 0 sense to do so, the Tippyverse makes a lot more sense, if you don't want the hassle of that level of optimization, or feel that's to optimized, tone it down to a level you're comfortable with. If your party consists of low OP people, then tailor your world to that, if you play in a group where everyone knows very well what they are doing, and you ban T1 classes because it makes the game unfun, because people know optimization that well, then Tailor your world to that as well. My group is semi-competent when it comes to optimizing, we play E6 Gestalt, the "average" guard is level 2-3 for us, Kings, Generals, world leaders and especially Bartenders are all considered level 6 Gestalts as well (Common guards are level 2-3 single classed). It works for our group, we don't believe that PCs are special snowflakes who should be allowed to run rampant on the countryside with little to no worry of consequence because lawl we're a level 20 wizard so who cares and can stop us other then Deities? To each their own.

If the game you are running is going to level 20, then a huge metropolis that frequently has a lot going on, and fields an army in the tens of thousands, probably has people who not only have PC levels, but has a fair few people in the 10-14 range, to the question of "well why isn't that guy out adventuring!?!?!" well because he's retired from adventuring? Because he has a family and the survival rate for adventuring parties is less then 1%? Why do Great Silver Wyrms talk to common humans and elves at all? Why isn't the world run by red dragons? Just because, that may not be the best of answers, but we all know if ever you try to apply "logic" to the D&D universe, you either end with the Tippyverse, or total confusion and braindeath.

[/rant]

td;dr- Optimize your guard just below where your party optimizes at, so that your city guards are always a challenge to your players should they need to be.

[malonkey1]

Well, to be fair, Sigil needs no guards most of the time, as everybody is too scared of the Lady of Pain.

[ArqArturo]

I feel like I'm missing something.

But really, optimizing city guards can vary depending on the setting, player playstyle, play optimization, and basically every other variable that one D&D table has from another.

That said, any properly made Tier 1 class makes the best city guard, due to sheer power.

There would be no crime in a city where an Anthropomorphic Bat Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 is the guard captain.

It's not the guard captain that city deserves, but the one they need.

[RegalKain]

Well, to be fair, Sigil needs no guards most of the time, as everybody is too scared of the Lady of Pain.

I won't argue that point! :D

[Azoth]

I am a fan of giving my town guards a 1lvl dip in exoticist fighter. This gives them proficiency with some subdual damage dealing or hindering weapons aside the sap. Things like nets and bolas.

[Eldariel]

Ranger is a good class, yes. They can also use Ranger Wands which can give the guard some extra tools for particularly troublesome problems. Of course, it only makes sense for some state-friendly local Church and Academy to have some of their trainees serve as magical support in there with perhaps one higher-up to lead them even in a not-very-magical environment; a great source of practical experience in a community-friendly role.