Core 3 TWF Rogue

[Mercenaryangel]

Alrighty gang, I'm getting ready to play in a D&D 3.5 game. I will be playing a human rogue but I'm struggling between going TWF or just grabbing a big ol 2h. We're only allowed to use the core 3 books. ( PHB, MM, DMG.) Anyone have any suggestions on which way I should go and how to squeeze every little bit I can out of this build. Also the DM was gracious enough to house rule now multi classing penalties, however he would also prefer us not to take any prestige classes.

[torrasque666]

First things first, we need level and stats(if already rolled/assigned)

[Yorrin]

In a pure core game the gap between THF and TWF is narrowed somewhat, but not entirely gone. Power attack on a Greatsword is the best result you're going to get in core, or assuming you dont want to spend your feat on proficiency (or multiclass) then go with a spear. That being said, neither option is horrible on a rogue, since in core rogue is really the only class you want dual wielding.

[HunterOfJello]

Two weapon fighting is the way to go with rogues in melee. Your normal damage from attacks are never going to be very impressive, but once you add in Sneak Attack you'll start doing nice damage. The rogue class feature of sneak attack only becomes impressive when you use lots of attacks.

In a core-only game I'd stick with pure rogue unless you're going for a dip in something else like Fighter 2, Barbarian 1, Cleric 1, or Wizard 1. Taking levels in Assassin would likely be best, but that's between you and your PrC disliking DM.

The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6s (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6) is a great handbook for rogues that you should go read up on.

[Mercenaryangel]

Firstly holy crap thank you for responding so quickly, I was not expecting that. Secondly sorry I totally durped and forgot to put the level and stats. We'll be starting at 1st level, and the stats are as follows.

Str: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 15
Int: 18 ( I enjoy playing skills guys. )
Wis: 16
Char: 14

[Yorrin]

Firstly holy crap thank you for responding so quickly, I was not expecting that. Secondly sorry I totally durped and forgot to put the level and stats. We'll be starting at 1st level, and the stats are as follows.

Str: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 15
Int: 18 ( I enjoy playing skills guys. )
Wis: 16
Char: 14
.
..
...
no

You rolled an 18 and you put it in a noncombat ability? Why!? An 18 Str would make you a terror with a spear for a 1st level rogue (1d8+6? I doubt there's anything level-appropriate that would survive that). And if you're planning to go TWF you're going to need a 19 in Dex anyway, so you'd need to switch it there. Put one of those 16 in Int if you must, but for the love of your character please put that 18 where it belongs.

[torrasque666]

Alright, my first attempt at optimizing something other than Warforged.

The way I see it, your stats are fine. Strength can be a bit of a dump stat but not as much. Since you're human, I'd suggest that your starting feats be TWF and Weapon Finesse as it will allow you to use your Dex to increase your hit chance, and since most stealth skills are Dex based(Move Silently and Hide, probably Slight of Hand would count as well) Alternatively, Hand Crossbows can be duel wielded as light weapons.


Also,
.
You rolled an 18 and you put it in a noncombat ability? Why!? An 18 Str would make you a terror with a spear for a 1st level rogue (1d8+6? I doubt there's anything level-appropriate that would survive that). And if you're planning to go TWF you're going to need a 19 in Dex anyway, so you'd need to switch it there. Put one of those 16 in Int if you must, but for the love of your character please put that 18 where it belongs.

Yorrin has a point here. While yes, the Rogue does have a ****ton of class skills to put their points into, you don't really need 12 points a level. 11 will suit your needs fine.(I'm liking PF's skills so much better right now, 11 points would be more than enough for a rogue.)

Second point, Yorrin, where are you getting 1d8+6? Even with an 18 it'd still be 1d8+4.

[Mercenaryangel]

I just did some quick math and you're right ok let's do some stat swapping to throw 18 to dex and the 16 to int.

[Yorrin]

I just did some quick math and you're right ok let's do some stat swapping to throw 18 to dex and the 16 to int.

Alright, then you're golden for a TWF rogue. (I'd still shift one of the 16s into Str as well, but it's not as crucial as that 18 in your accuracy stat). Since you don't qualify for Weapon Finesse at level one I'd pick up TWF and Improved Initiative, with Finesse being grabbed at level three. As a "skills" guy I assume you don't need any advise there :P

[Kalaska'Agathas]

You may have to dip fighter for feats (though you should dip something, Rogue 20 is a terrible level), but a Core Only Rogue tripper could make great use of the Kusari-Gama (Dungeon Master's Guide, pg. 144) - it's like a light Spiked Chain (as absurd as that is, given how the Kusari-Gama actually was used). And while TWF is feat intensive enough already, adding in tripping allows a little bit of battlefield control, and the -4 to AC from being prone helps make up for the TWF penalties and medium BAB. Besides, what other feats were you going to take, in Core?

[Mercenaryangel]

Lol fair enough, was debating dropping into a level of fighter at 3 for the feat plus the fighter feat. Good idea? Bad idea?

[torrasque666]

Alright, then you're golden for a TWF rogue. (I'd still shift one of the 16s into Str as well, but it's not as crucial as that 18 in your accuracy stat). Since you don't qualify for Weapon Finesse at level one I'd pick up TWF and Improved Initiative, with Finesse being grabbed at level three. As a "skills" guy I assume you don't need any advise there :P

Or he could dip into fighter for TWF, Improved initiative/Combat Expertise AND Weapon Finesse.


Lol fair enough, was debating dropping into a level of fighter at 3 for the feat plus the fighter feat. Good idea? Bad idea?

I say(and remember, first time for a non-warforged) go for it at level 1. You'll get 3 feats out of the deal instead and qualify for a decent amount of combat related feats right off the bat.

[Mercenaryangel]

I'm not to super worried about improve initiative right now, I figure I'll let the fighter jump out there first them I'll tumble to flank. I've gotten smack around to many times going first.

[Yorrin]

Lol fair enough, was debating dropping into a level of fighter at 3 for the feat plus the fighter feat. Good idea? Bad idea?

Not horrible at all. As Kalaska'Agathas suggested, adding something like tripping to your build would add a layer of complexity and versatility that would be beneficial, but it would obviously require more feats, and as a 3/4 BAB class you wouldn't have the best trip score in core (but we can't all be barbarians). I'd be more likely to grab a level of Cleric with the Magic domain and use some wands for a "ranged" magical sneak attack build myself, but there are a lot of ways to dip around with a core rogue.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Lol fair enough, was debating dropping into a level of fighter at 3 for the feat plus the fighter feat. Good idea? Bad idea?

Rogue 19/Fighter 1 is almost certainly better than Rogue 20. Taking the Fighter level at 3 is fine, unless it makes it easier to pick up feats which open up at higher levels, in which case taking it a 3 could get you less bang for your proverbial buck.

Edit:

Or he could dip into fighter for TWF, Improved initiative/Combat Expertise AND Weapon Finesse.



I say(and remember, first time for a non-warforged) go for it at level 1. You'll get 3 feats out of the deal instead and qualify for a decent amount of combat related feats right off the bat.


Better to take Rogue at first level, to max out the maximum number of skills.

[Mercenaryangel]

And you guys just blew my mind again, lol thought I had it locked down and good to go now I'm re-evaluating my choices again and crunching numbers to see what's best. As for the magic domain, it sounds good but I'd still have to crank the UMD to meet some checks.

[Yorrin]

And you guys just blew my mind again, lol thought I had it locked down and good to go now I'm re-evaluating my choices again and crunching numbers to see what's best. As for the magic domain, it sounds good but I'd still have to crank the UMD to meet some checks.

That's the beauty of Magic Domain Cleric. You no longer need to meet the UMD checks on your wands. Not that Rogues typically have a problem with that, but the Cleric dip gives you full access to spell completion and spell trigger items as if you were also a Wizard.

But regardless, grabbing a wand of Scorching Ray would make for a pretty decent ranged attack even if you were going the UMD route.

[torrasque666]

Better to take Rogue at first level, to max out the maximum number of skills.

True. Though he could also do Rogue/Fighter/Rogue.

Max out the skills that he can, Pick up whatever he needs at level 2, and then proceed from there.

TWF, Combat Expertise/Weapon Finesse/Combat Reflexes or Improved Trip maybe?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

And you guys just blew my mind again, lol thought I had it locked down and good to go now I'm re-evaluating my choices again and crunching numbers to see what's best. As for the magic domain, it sounds good but I'd still have to crank the UMD to meet some checks.

Cranking UMD was a good idea anyway. Magic domain Cleric is probably a better choice than Wizard, in this case - gets you a much wider selection of wands you can activate without a check. If your DM were more amenable to PrCs, Wizard/Rogue into Arcane Trickster becomes a possibility, but otherwise Magic Domain Cleric is the obvious choice.

Edit:



True. Though he could also do Rogue/Fighter/Rogue.

Max out the skills that he can, Pick up whatever he needs at level 2, and then proceed from there.

TWF, Combat Expertise/Weapon Finesse/Combat Reflexes or Improved Trip maybe?

Yeah, that could work. We'd want to work out what feats the build is going for, though, to determine the optimal time for the Fighter dip. But if Mercenaryangel wants to dip Cleric, then we've defenestrated the old plan.

I'm trying to think of what would be the best other Domain. My first thought is Knowledge, but I'll have to look at the granted abilities for the other options to be sure.

[Mercenaryangel]

Not sure if Combat Expertise is good as 1st level since I have no super amazing BAB yet. I'm starting to sway toward Magic Domain though.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Not sure if Combat Expertise is good as 1st level since I have no BAB yet. I'm starting to sway toward Magic Domain though.

Take Two Weapon Fighting at first. Though, thinking more on this proposed TWF Tripper, you're going to need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kusari-Gama, Weapon Finesse, TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes, which is all of your feats as a Rogue 19/Fighter 1. You could take Human (you probably should, anyhow), for another, if there's anything else you want (Improved Initiative, something else in Core which I haven't thought of maybe?). But that is all of your feats.

[Gwendol]

My suggestion is to pick one or the other. Either go THF and trip, OR TWF. Not both. Rogues in core are rather fragile and have a hard time surviving melee combat. If you can convince your DM to dip a level in Shadowdancer in order to get HiPS, go for it. Otherwise, you will have to rely on other means to avoid devastating counterattacks from your enemies.

If you stick with TWF, you can work with thrown weapons to try and avoid full attacks should your enemy not fall (also, quite a few enemies are immune to precision damage and in core you can't circumvent that so...). Dipping a level of cleric is a great suggestion as you will need a magical option also for offence to strike at SA immune creatures.

[lytokk]

If you're worried about the skill points, since no one mentioned this part, don't forget that as a human you get that extra skill point per level. so with an int of 16 you'll still get 12 skill points per level. My thought would be to put the 14 into int and 16 into str, which nets you 44 skill points at first level. Also you're not always going to fight things that sneak attack works against, so its always nice to have some STR to put into attacks.

Just another suggestion, dual crossbows. Just for those times you're going to need to be ranged, since they have a better range than darts.

[Yorrin]

Take Two Weapon Fighting at first. Though, thinking more on this proposed TWF Tripper, you're going to need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kusari-Gama, Weapon Finesse, TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes, which is all of your feats as a Rogue 19/Fighter 1. You could take Human (you probably should, anyhow), for another, if there's anything else you want (Improved Initiative, something else in Core which I haven't thought of maybe?). But that is all of your feats.

This.

Magic Domain would take your build in a bit of a different direction. If you want all of it then I'd advise something like Rogue 17/Fighter 2/Cleric 1, which would give you another feat to play with as well as the flexibility of Magic Domain, but at the cost of a Rogue Special Ability, some sneak attack, and of course skill points. You need to think a bit about what you're willing to trade for the various things multiclassing brings.

If you do go with the proposed build I'd say do Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Cleric 1/Rogue +13, to keep your BAB and skills at a good place in your early levels.

[Eldariel]

If you're a melee Rogue, I must remind you of your d6 HD. It's dangerous to be around in melee without HP (in general, it's dangerous to be in melee and it's dangerous to be without a lot of HP but in this case the two compound each other). I would put a 16 in Con and 18 in Dex. Overall, 14 Str is fine since you won't get benefits in the offhand otherwise anyways so:

15 Str
18 Dex
16 Con
16 Int
14 Wis
14 Cha


15 Str over 15 anything else since your level-ups should go to Dex anyways (you can eventually get Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor), which allows you to make use of 26 Dex defensively so it won't be wasted; very high up you can switch to Bracers of Armor +8 and rock your 32 Dex for a total of +19 AC just from Dex and Armor, which easily beats +5 Mithril Full-Plate with 17 Dex giving only a total of +16 with +13 Armor and +3 Dex, and narrowly even +5 Celestial Armor giving +18 with +8 Dex and +10 Armor). And since you won't put level-ups to the 15, 15 Str is the only one that really gives you any benefit over 14 in the same score (increased carrying capacity). The maxed Dex, on the other hand, gives you skill checks, AC, to hit and all the good stuff. Initiative is nice too since acting first = free sneak attacks.

You can't sneak attack a bunch of things in Core tho which is why it's a good idea to get an array of Wands to use your Use Magic Device with alongside a couple of Scrolls. These allow you to contribute when your main trick doesn't work. Indeed, you should have at least the key level 1 spells Wanded (Grease is a great one and then you can consider True Strike & al.) and carry around higher level Wands you can get handy (eventually you can use e.g. Divine Power Wand if you happen to find one). Also, Ring of Blinking is a very key item since it allows you to always sneak attack unless your enemy sees invisible. And no, the miss chance it gives you doesn't ruin your Sneak Attacks since Sneak Attacks are only ruined by Concealment-based miss chance.

You should definitely take 1 level of Shadow Dancer [DMG]. Hide in Plain Sight means you can hide while attacking and moving (and with your Dex and items you should have no trouble hiding) which allows you to always sneak attack. 20th level of Rogue gives nothing anyways so it works and while it costs you a bunch of useless feats, it's not like there are lots of feats you want anyways (Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting + Improved + Greater and that's it; Leadership if it's allowed).

[Urpriest]

In terms of timing for the Fighter dip, taking it at level 2 would get you Weapon Finesse as early as possible.

[Deadline]

Second point, Yorrin, where are you getting 1d8+6? Even with an 18 it'd still be 1d8+4. [/FONT]

If he's using a Longspear, then he gets to add 1.5 his Str mod instead of just his Str mod. So 4 * 1.5 = 6.

[torrasque666]

Ah yes, forgot about that.

[dextercorvia]

In terms of timing for the Fighter dip, taking it at level 2 would get you Weapon Finesse as early as possible.

It also opens him up to using Martial Weapons sooner if he is going the two handed tripper route. Upgrade that Longspear to a Guisarme. With a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes, you can end up making more attacks per round than TWF.