Can you have Turn Undead and Rebuke undead as two different abilities?

[Dessembrae]

I'm building a warlock/ur-priest/eldritch disciple, and I'm going to dip Cleric at level 2.

I'll lose the cleric spells once I get into ur-priest, but I get to keep the other benefits - Travel Devotion, Planning domain, and Turn Undead.


My question is, if I choose to channel positive energy and Turn Undead as a cleric, what happens when I gain Rebuke Undead as an ur-priest?


Do I lose the ability to Turn Undead? Do I gain the ability to either Turn or Rebuke out of the same "pool" of Turn uses? Do I get two separate pools?

[Vaz]

Ur-Priest requires Evil alignment. Evil Clerics cannot channel positive energy. They will both rebuke Undead, and so he will have Rebuke Undead from Cleric, and rebuke Undead as a cleric from Ur-Priest. It's not clear if they stack or overlap.

[NoACWarrior]

For clerics, by RAW once you change alignment you change the way you channel - in this case you wouldn't get both turning abilities.

If you were a neutral cleric who channeld positive energy, and then took a single level in either death delver or dread necromancer you would get both sets.
And whenever you took extra turning you would get 8 channels - 4 channels of each.

But for your example, you simply stack instead.

[ryu]

Ur Priest only requires evil to advance in the class. Ur Priests can change alignment at any given point with no penalty besides having to change back to go deeper in the class.

[NoACWarrior]

Ur Priest only requires evil to advance in the class. Ur Priests can change alignment at any given point with no penalty besides having to change back to go deeper in the class.

good point :D

But either way I think its cleaner just to go 1 level of DN for RP sake.

[Vaz]

If you're double dipping for Turn Pools for DMM Persist, just save the bother and get Nightsticks. If your DM doesn't let that fly, then he's probably not too happy with DMM Persist stacking from multiple pools anyway, and for Travel Devotion, it's rare you'll need more than 4 - which you can get even with a Charisma of 8 and a +4 Cloak, easily manageable by ECL 7 or 8.

[Nightraiderx]

Yes. I've done it is such a way that between alts and playing a neutral class, can have up to five pools of turn undead, the easiest way is to use
Dragonlance. The Sun domain and Necromancy domains have turn and rebuke undead as alternate powers. If you combine it with a racial class (I suggest Azurin for the essentia ability because you can grab dragon-blood as a feat and decent charisma.) You can have three turning pools as a 1st level cleric. If you require more turning, grab dragon blooded and change your rebuke undead to rebuke dragons and use ravenloft training to retrain your turn undead as destroy undead.
Later on grabbing rebuke/turn through prestiege classes. But I wouldn't go more than three turnings unless you want the book thrown on you.

[Gnaeus]

If you're double dipping for Turn Pools for DMM Persist, just save the bother and get Nightsticks. If your DM doesn't let that fly, then he's probably not too happy with DMM Persist stacking from multiple pools anyway, and for Travel Devotion, it's rare you'll need more than 4 - which you can get even with a Charisma of 8 and a +4 Cloak, easily manageable by ECL 7 or 8.

As a DM who has dealt with this exact issue, I am way more comfortable with PCs taking a dip in another class and thereby permanently slowing their spellcasting progression using 2 sets of turning pools than I am with every DMM cleric having a dozen sets of an underpriced magic item. So check with your DM before assuming this.

[OldTrees1]

Yes. I've done it is such a way that between alts and playing a neutral class, can have up to five pools of turn undead, the easiest way is to use
Dragonlance. The Sun domain and Necromancy domains have turn and rebuke undead as alternate powers. If you combine it with a racial class (I suggest Azurin for the essentia ability because you can grab dragon-blood as a feat and decent charisma.) You can have three turning pools as a 1st level cleric.

Um, Clerics can only take Cleric Domains. Sun and Necromancy[Dreagonlance] are exclusive to a new base class in that book.

@OP Yes it is possible See non good non evil Cleric of (not Wee Jas) 1 / Dread Necromancer 1

[Kennisiou]

Anther way to have both turning and rebuking is to be a good cleric or paladin and then take levels in the Death Delver prestige class which has a rebuking pool as long as the player had no previous rebuking pool.

Edit: Also, nightsticks do not stack. You only have +4 turning while holding the nightstick. When you let go of the nightstick you lose 4 turning, which means if you have 0 turning your turning goes negative. Grasping another nightstick then just puts you to what your turning was before. You can't hold a bunch of nightsticks at once and get turning from all of them since by RAW you can't be under the same effect multiple times unless it explicitly says so.

The "negative turning" thing actually also happens if you lose cha for any reason as well. So that's neat.

[Nightraiderx]

I thought that mystics specifically borrowed from the Cleric domain list, and that the Sun and Necromancy (turn/rebuke) were
alternate cleric powers granted in order to get mystics turn/rebuke undead.
I am AFB but I have read the wording on it before so I'll defend my stance, until I can find it and show you.

[Kennisiou]

Pretty sure I can get 4 turn/rebuking pools. Be a neutral cleric with turning, not rebuking. Once you qualify take a level in death delver for a rebuking pool, since you had none previously. Iirc, death delver has nothing stating that if you gain a rebuking pool after taking a level in it you lose the rebuking pool and get level stacking on rebuke attempts instead, so from there you level in the dragon magazine neutral variant paladin with rebuke undead (think it was the CN one? Could be wrong) and take a level in dread necro. 4 pools. Not sure how many more pools you can get.

[Vaz]

As a DM, I'm happier just banning DMM Persist full stop - and Quicken. Especially on a full caster, they don't need any more help. Just get a Memento Mori or Pearl of Power, it's the same thing, basically. It costs more and limits their WBL if they want multiple 9th level spells up because they're costing 81K per additional casting, on top of everything else.

As it stands, Nightsticks explicitly stack. There's no spell involved, it comes from Extra Turning, the feat that's required to make the item, and that feat itself stacks. It's not a Bonus, so the stacking rules do not apply.

Not to mention they don't even have to be in hand. They can just be in your backpack/extra dimensional space where you decide to splurge out and sit them all in. "Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day."

By "RAW" it's bulletproof. They stack, and only houseruling otherwise stops that.

As said - if you're going to jump through hoops, ask your DM on what his opinion is on having freely Persisted Spells on the party. I usually say no, you can't - be more of a team player and take Reach or Chain instead. Travel Devotion you don't need to take Extra Turning for. 4 or possibly 5 or so encounters a day gives you 3+Cha (achievable with a 16K Cloak).

However. If he says yes, say "can I use Nightsticks to provide these uses". If he says no, don't try and "cheat" his expectation by rolling up with twice the expected one. It's like turning up to a water balloon fight with an automatic shotgun. Sure, you might win, and be uber powerful, but why? It ends up spoiling everyone elses fun when even without DMM Persist you can turn out with a better fighter than the fighter etc, etc.

[Chronos]

Nightsticks don't give you the Extra Turning feat, so the fact that Extra Turning stacks with itself is irrelevant. Multiple nightsticks are giving you the same bonus from the same source, and so do not stack.

[OldTrees1]

I thought that mystics specifically borrowed from the Cleric domain list, and that the Sun and Necromancy (turn/rebuke) were
alternate cleric powers granted in order to get mystics turn/rebuke undead.
I am AFB but I have read the wording on it before so I'll defend my stance, until I can find it and show you.

In the Cleric and Mystics Domains section you will often find the quote

Deities: None (mystics only)
This affects the following domains: Alteration, Mentalism, Necromancy, Restoration, and Sun.

This is further clarified earlier in the Mystic's Domain class feature[pg 49]

A mystic chooses one domains from among those available to clerics, including the domains in the Player's Handbook (even Sun, which is not granted by any living deity of Krynn, but not Magic) and the new domains presented in Chapter 3: Magic of Kyrnn (including several that are available only to mystics).

[Nightraiderx]

Ah, so an exception to the rule. However you can still grab rebuke dragon/turn incarnum from azurin/dragonblooded
and dipping dread necro and death delver. Just requires more dipping.

[The Glyphstone]

Nightsticks don't give you the Extra Turning feat, so the fact that Extra Turning stacks with itself is irrelevant. Multiple nightsticks are giving you the same bonus from the same source, and so do not stack.

The problem with this is that you're applying rules from a different section. The Stacking rules govern "modifiers to a given check or roll". The number of times you can use an ability is either of these, so by RAW you can stack Nightsticks until their collective weight is over your maximum load and be able to use all of them.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifiers

[Vaz]

Nightsticks don't give you the Extra Turning feat, so the fact that Extra Turning stacks with itself is irrelevant. Multiple nightsticks are giving you the same bonus from the same source, and so do not stack.

What bonus? What mention anywhere is there of a bonus?