"Vampire Therapy"

[pendell]

Seen in The Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10807478/Vampire-therapy-could-reverse-ageing-scientists-find.html)



It may seem the stuff of gothic horror novels, but transfusions of young blood could reverse the ageing process and even cure Alzheimer’s Disease, scientists believe.

...

Now scientists have found that young blood actually ‘recharges’ the brain, forms new blood vessels and improves memory and learning.

In parallel research, scientists at Harvard University also discovered that a ‘youth protein’ which circulates in the blood is responsible for keeping the brain and muscles young and strong.
The protein, known as ‘GDF11’, is present in the bloodstream in large quantities when we are young but peters out as we age.
Although both the discoveries were made in mice, researchers are hoping to begin human trials in the next two to three years, in studies which could bring rapid improvements for human longevity and health.


Hmm.. at first I found the idea repugnant. I find the idea of old people 'milking' young children for blood to enhance their own life somewhat creepy. But if the protein GDF11 can be isolated and administered apart from blood, we might have something there.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

I vaguely remember seeing the idea crop up a few times in sci-fi - interesting that it might actually have a real effect.

[the_druid_droid]

Hmm.. at first I found the idea repugnant. I find the idea of old people 'milking' young children for blood to enhance their own life somewhat creepy. But if the protein GDF11 can be isolated and administered apart from blood, we might have something there.


Well, the findings have to be verified first in humans anyway. There's a pretty long list of therapies that sounded good on paper (and even in lab animals) but never panned out in clinical trials for one reason or another.

Setting aside the transfusion aspect of the mouse study (and thus the inevitable 'vampire' comparison), in an actual clinical setting you would almost certainly only care about the active ingredients, rather than whole plasma. Assuming that's just the protein itself, creating a supply could be as straightforward as modern-day insulin production in bioreactors, provided we find a good candidate organism to express it in.

I actually think a more interesting question to ask about this sort of thing is: supposing this protein shows similar effects in humans and can be mass-produced, how do we determine who gets a prescription, and should insurance companies cover the costs involved?

Obviously, something like that has the potential to significantly improve quality of life for a huge number of people, but I can (sadly) see the counter-argument being made that it's 'just' cosmetic surgery in an IV drip and therefore should be considered an elective or opt-in procedure that's paid out of pocket.

[Eldan]

We can probably mass produce pretty much any protein by splicing it into bacteria. Used to be that diabetics had to get their insulin from animals, too. So, yeah. Once they find out what exactly the factors are in blood, they can be replicated.

[noparlpf]

Yeah, if they do figure out what protein(s) are directly responsible, they'll just transform some E. coli or yeast and start pumping the stuff out in bulk.

[Ravens_cry]

We can probably mass produce pretty much any protein by splicing it into bacteria. Used to be that diabetics had to get their insulin from animals, too. So, yeah. Once they find out what exactly the factors are in blood, they can be replicated.
That and human cadavers. How's that for ghoulish? I think modded bacteria are also responsible for medical human growth hormone as well.

[Grinner]

Dammit, Pendell. You beat me to the punch.

I just finished listening to a segment on the radio* about this. The results were actually found in three different studies of varying degrees of disturbing methodology.

In one, they sewed two mice, one young and one old, together and observed the pair over the course of several weeks, resulting in improved muscle endurance, muscle repair, learning ability, etc of the older one.

In another, they drew plasma from young mice and injected it into older mice, with similar results.

In the last, they isolated the protein GDF11 (identified I believe in a study about heart failure?) and injected it, again with similar results.

*Link (http://www.kcrw.com/news/programs/tp/tp140505the_death_penalty_fa). Mind the death penalty discussion; the segment should be the last ten minutes or so.


Hmm.. at first I found the idea repugnant. I find the idea of old people 'milking' young children for blood to enhance their own life somewhat creepy. But if the protein GDF11 can be isolated and administered apart from blood, we might have something there.

We already do milk the young (and relatively old, for that matter) of their blood.

Plasma extracted from it is used to produce some very basic medicines.

[noparlpf]

...disturbing methodology.

In one, they sewed two mice, one young and one old, together and observed the pair over the course of several weeks, resulting in improved muscle endurance, muscle repair, learning ability, etc of the older one.

Eh, they do that all the time. A bunch of studies involve sewing two mice together. I read a couple of studies into obesity and diabetes in which they sewed a bunch of mice to each other.

[SamBurke]

Eh, they do that all the time. A bunch of studies involve sewing two mice together. I read a couple of studies into obesity and diabetes in which they sewed a bunch of mice to each other.

I could have gone my whole life without scienceing that hard. When you say "sewn together", how much of their body is connected thus?

[Grinner]

Eh, they do that all the time. A bunch of studies involve sewing two mice together. I read a couple of studies into obesity and diabetes in which they sewed a bunch of mice to each other.

I can only imagine that was done to see how the circulatory system plays into the development of obesity and diabetes...

Has anyone ever connected the nervous systems in such a manner...? :smalleek:

[Ravens_cry]

I can only imagine that was done to see how the circulatory system plays into the development of obesity and diabetes...

Has anyone ever connected the nervous systems in such a manner...? :smalleek:
If we could connect nerves in that manner, paralyses from spinal injuries could be pretty much cured.

[noparlpf]

I could have gone my whole life without scienceing that hard. When you say "sewn together", how much of their body is connected thus?

They just make a cut in the skin on the side of each mouse and join it to the other mouse.


I can only imagine that was done to see how the circulatory system plays into the development of obesity and diabetes...

Has anyone ever connected the nervous systems in such a manner...? :smalleek:

Mice have two fat-causing genes that we know of. One's directly linked to obesity and one to diabetes and obesity. So they sew two mice together to see how the circulating products of those genes (both the wild-type into the mutant, and the mutant into the wild-type) affect the two mice. It's pretty nifty.

And nah, getting nerves connected to things in their own system properly is still hard enough. Maybe one day. :smallbiggrin:

[Grinner]

If we could connect nerves in that manner, paralyses from spinal injuries could be pretty much cured.

A cybernetic implant might be an easier solution. Perhaps a matching pair of caps for both sides of the severed spinal cord? Ones which relay signals back and forth? That might require quite a bit of physical therapy to learn to use...

...I did recently hear about a trick some researchers did with a pig bladder, though. By implanting bits of pig bladder into disabled war veterans, they were able to trigger a response from their stem cells, causing damaged muscles to spontaneously regenerate.

It may just be a fluke of biology, but I wonder if something else could trigger a similar response in the central nervous system?

[Ravens_cry]

A cybernetic implant might be an easier solution. Perhaps a matching pair of caps for both sides of the severed spinal cord? Ones which relay signals back and forth? That might require quite a bit of physical therapy to learn to use...

...I did recently hear about a trick some researchers did with a pig bladder, though. By implanting bits of pig bladder into disabled war veterans, they were able to trigger a response from their stem cells, causing damaged muscles to spontaneously regenerate.

It may just be a fluke of biology, but I wonder if something else could trigger a similar response in the central nervous system?
That would be something. I've heard there has been some limited success in injecting stem cells into spinal injuries as well.

[noparlpf]

One of the big problems in fixing CNS injuries isn't just that CNS neurons don't regenerate well (they can in more permissive environments, but the glia in the CNS normally produce inhibitory molecules)—it's that glial scars also form and block off the space between the two sections of nerve.

[Grinner]

That would be something. I've heard there has been some limited success in injecting stem cells into spinal injuries as well.

That...is a tricky proposal. Scientists are able to extract adult stem cells and dedifferentiate them into stem cells probably of vary degrees of pluripotency. They've done this, cultivated the cells, attached them to "scaffolding", and, with the right biochemical triggers, caused them to develop into all sorts of organs: teeth, esophagi, livers, etc.

The problem with this methodology is twofold.

First, the newly dedifferentiated stem cells have to be cultivated very, very carefully. I suspect that pluripotency is a matter of the state of the genome; different sorts of cells express different genes, after all. Resetting the genome is thus probably a very delicate task. An errant protein could easily cause a stem cell to begin to develop into a specialized cell, ruining the whole process.

Second, cancer. I once read an article about stem cell research, which mentioned that stem cell cultures have been known to become cancerous. It does make sense though, since this process involves tinkering with the activation of genes. Much like a computer program, genetics requires great precision, and becoming unprecise has all sorts of weird side effects.


One of the big problems in fixing CNS injuries isn't just that CNS neurons don't regenerate well (they can in more permissive environments, but the glia in the CNS normally produce inhibitory molecules)—it's that glial scars also form and block off the space between the two sections of nerve.

Perhaps gene therapy and a bit of surgery could fix that?

Gene therapy could be dangerous though...What about a protein injection? Something that inhibits the production of the inhibitor? That might cause the central nervous system to grow out of control, though...What genes determine the shape of organs and tissues?

Edit: Reverse ninja'd. How embarrassing.

[Ravens_cry]

One of the big problems in fixing CNS injuries isn't just that CNS neurons don't regenerate well (they can in more permissive environments, but the glia in the CNS normally produce inhibitory molecules)—it's that glial scars also form and block off the space between the two sections of nerve.
Well, part of the solution then would be to cut away the scar tissue and find other chemicals to inhibit the inhibitors.
Of course, you really want to keep the latter localized, or you'll have I don't know what to know what will happen if brain cells start multiplying. Nothing good I would wager though.

[noparlpf]

Another big issue is getting the new cells to go to the right places. We could make neurons reproduce crazily if we wanted (to kill somebody). But getting everything wired up properly is going to be really delicate.

[Ravens_cry]

Another big issue is getting the new cells to go to the right places. We could make neurons reproduce crazily if we wanted (to kill somebody). But getting everything wired up properly is going to be really delicate.

Yeah, there's a lot of problems. If it was easy, they'd have solved it by now.

[Grinner]

I don't know what to know what will happen if brain cells start multiplying. Nothing good I would wager though.

Superpowers, obviously. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Brain cancer, more likely. Really, the answer to any question involving the word including the words "cell multiplication" is likely to involve "cancer".

[Brother Oni]

I find the idea of old people 'milking' young children for blood to enhance their own life somewhat creepy.

As Grinner said, we already do this in the obvious form of blood donations and less obviously, from the components of these donations (platelets for example).


Brain cancer, more likely. Really, the answer to any question involving the word including the words "cell multiplication" is likely to involve "cancer".

Unless you're Wolverine. :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

Unless you're Wolverine. :smalltongue:

Well, there's Deadpool :smalltongue:

[Kato]

Well, there's Deadpool :smalltongue:

Beat me to it...


I'd say this sounds a bit too good to be true. And while I guess this exposes my lack o medical knowledge, I'm pretty stunned if this thing is real we only found it just now. Though, I guess it won't be the elixir of life but only something which helps a bit. Or I could be totally wrong and we are ten years from eternal youth.

[Frozen_Feet]

Unless you're Wolverine. :smalltongue:

Wolverine is a cancer on the world. :smalltongue:

[Grinner]

I'd say this sounds a bit too good to be true. And while I guess this exposes my lack o medical knowledge, I'm pretty stunned if this thing is real we only found it just now. Though, I guess it won't be the elixir of life but only something which helps a bit. Or I could be totally wrong and we are ten years from eternal youth.

No, I think you had it right. I don't think it will do anything about the Hayflick limit and telomere degradation. It just keeps everything working smoothly for a bit longer.

I have to wonder why this protein, GDF11, is generated more in the young than the old. Is it a "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long" sort of thing?

[Brother Oni]

No, I think you had it right. I don't think it will do anything about the Hayflick limit and telomere degradation. It just keeps everything working smoothly for a bit longer.

It's worth bearing in mind that that the article indicates that the main focus of research is that GDF11 or a derivative from it, may be a potential treatment for Alzheimer's rather than a 'Stay Young' life style drug.

Whether it finds a secondary indication for an improved quality of life in old age remains to be seen and given the regulatory hurdles, would be the harder route to be marketed.

[Ravens_cry]

There's a lot that can be done to improve senior quality of life. While we are getting very good at keeping people alive, we need to do a lot more to help make sure the golden years are, well, golden.

[Killer Angel]

I vaguely remember seeing the idea crop up a few times in sci-fi - interesting that it might actually have a real effect.

Not exactly blood, but i remember "Caught in the organ draft", by Robert Silverberg.
(a dystopian future, where there was a sort of military conscription, where young people must donate their organs to the old, rich and important people. The goal was to survive long enought to become yourself rich and old)

[Brother Oni]

There's a lot that can be done to improve senior quality of life. While we are getting very good at keeping people alive, we need to do a lot more to help make sure the golden years are, well, golden.

I agree with you, but the regulatory bodies say to pharma companies "We really like you to work on these conditions - look, this one's got orphan drug status!*" and are generally a bit grumpy when instead they have to review products that the pharma companies think will make them money.
This attitude is increased when they have to review something which they see as extraneous, either because the market is saturated (e.g. statins) or because the condition is relatively mild.

This trickles down to the reimbursers (organisations that pay for the product like health insurers or government agencies), who look long and hard at it and ask "Do you really need it?"**. Some products make it to market, but aren't authorised by reimbursers, so the patient wants it, they have to buy it themselves.

Lifestyle drugs which improve quality of life tend to fall into this extraneous category, so GDF11 for Alzheimer's = good, GDF11 for helping old people move around = not so good.
What may happen is that the company that develops this goes down the Alzheimer's route and gets to the other indication by a very insincere "Oh look, this Alzheimer's treatment is coincidentally very good at improving the QoL of old people. Who'd have thunk it?", netting them a new product for minimal effort since most of the development work's been done already, plus extending their patent on the Alzheimer's product, making them more money.

Please note that this is very simplified view of the process and government agencies do get involved to figuratively whack the pharma companies on the nose with a newspaper saying "No! Bad company!" when their evergreening shenanigans get out of hand.


* Some diseases that have low prevalance, so there are few, if any, treatments for them. In order to encourage development into them, the powers that be, offer financial and bureaucratic incentives to offset the lower sales.

** Or plug it through a QALY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-adjusted_life_year) calculation to see which products are most cost effective.

[Sivarias]

Not related but I found out for a Material Sci project last year.

Do you realize the we've developed nano-technology that can remote deliver chemo directly to the cancer cells?

Even better, we can inject nano particle covered in gold that isolate themselves within the cancer and we then just burn it out with a high powered laser

[pendell]

I didn't know that. That's very cool!

ETA: I've also heard of cancer being treated with the measles virus (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/15/womans-cancer-killed-by-measles-virus-in-unprecedented-trial/?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost) .

Respectfully,

Brian P.