[3.5] The Whip as main weapon

[A.A.King]

Other then the 3.0 Lasher PrC class, what ways are there to offensively use a whip. (Also ignore "Pyrokineticist" because I don't see it as a true whip)

What I can think of is:
Tripping - You can take a supportive role and just trip the opponents who are fighting against your teammates who have actual weapons.
Disarm - You can take a supportibe role and just disarm the opponents who are fighting against your teammates who have actual weapons
Arcane Channeling - This one is my favorite. You can use the whip with a Duskblade build and simply channel something like Shocking Grasp to an opponent who is 15-ft away. This way you can deal damage and use the whip as a main weapon, circumenting the fact that whips normally don't deal damage.

Are there other ways to offensively use the whip? For example, could you use the whip to deliver sneak attack damage like you can use the whip to deliver Shocking Grasp (or do both at the same time)

[Fouredged Sword]

If you have proficiency in a whip, you also get proficiency in a whip dagger at no cost. A whip dagger can hurt people in armor and deal lethal damage.

I also like a bard with DFI dealing 10d6 sonic damage or so with a whip.

[Vaz]

Contact poison delivery. Blister oil i think has notoriety.

[Vhaidara]

The big weakness with the whip is that it doesn't threaten the squares it reaches, which makes the 15 reach a lot less useful.

[Fouredged Sword]

Back it up with armor spikes. You at least threaten the spaces around you. Also, a 30ft reach with enlarge person is hard to beat, even if you can't make AOO's with it.

[jordan.k93]

I think there's a warlock incantation that allows you to use eldritch blast as a melee weapon... but you may as well just go for ranged touch attack at 60ft than 15ft regular attack.

Take scout/rogue and add skirmish/sneak attack damage?

[A.A.King]

I forgot about poisons. And armorspikes/gauntlet will work with threatening the area around you. Personally I like the image of a Whip ans board on a Duskblade but that would probably be too feat intensive

[CyberThread]

Depending on where you go with this. A cleric domain gives a whip improved grab

[Metahuman1]

I'd go into the Player's Handbook 2 and make a custom affiliation in the form of a fighting school that let's a whip deal lethal damage, work on armored targets/targets with higher natural armor, threaten it's reach, and maybe, maybe be able to count as a light weapon for TWF penalty's.

Or, barring that, I'd make a minor magic item or two that at least circumvent the lack of threatening and lack of lethal damage/armor penetration.

[Harrow]

I'm sure there's some way Tome of Battle can make whips usable.

Mountain hammer on a whip? That's fantastic.

[Fouredged Sword]

As someone who played a stone dragon using swordsage whip dagger user, I will tell you it can work quite well. Really, I used a diamond mind / stone dragon focus, with just a dash of desert wind (for even more reach).

[A.A.King]

As someone who played a stone dragon using swordsage whip dagger user, I will tell you it can work quite well. Really, I used a diamond mind / stone dragon focus, with just a dash of desert wind (for even more reach).

Do you think it would have worked just as well with a normal whip instead of with a whip dagger? And what are some of the maneuvers which work better with a whip?

[Fouredged Sword]

A whip dagger is the apology we got for the whip's rule issues. It seems to me that WOTC decided to do a retcon of the whip, but didn't want to officially state they where wrong. If you can use a whip, you can automatically use a whip dagger. The whip is strictly worse than the whip dagger, unless you want to deal non-lethal damage for some reason.

[A.A.King]

The whip dagger is one of the ways you can get around of the problems that whips have when it comes to dealing damage, but are maneuvers in itself good enough to get around that problem?

[Fouredged Sword]

That is unclear, and even then, it wouldn't work with many strikes. I would say no. If your attack cannot harm your target, I would not think you would get any rider effect from the strike.

[Gildedragon]

Note that the whip is great for Spell Storing.

[Talya]

Pathfinder has a great line of whip feats that, unfortunately, require enough feats to make a whip specialist consider going fighter.

Specifically, Improved Whip Mastery and Greater Whip Mastery are wonderful.

[gorfnab]

Whip it...Whip it good.



Taken from The Duskblade's Handbook: post by BenTheJester (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.80)
I saw that build on another thread:

It nets you 18 BAB, 19 CL, 4th level Duskblade spells, 4-7th level Sublime Chord spells, whip proficiency.
The main goal of this build is using Full Channeling with Irresistible Dance.

This build, however, requires you to have 17 charisma. And you have to wear light armor to make this work.

However the original poster went the whirlwind way, which is not only iffy on wether it works with Arcane Channeling or not, but also requires you to have 13 dex, making your Duskblade incredibly MAD(17 cha, 14 int, 13 dex, definately needs strength, con is also nice to have)

Sublime Duskchord
Human

Bard 1 / Duskblade 13 / Sublime chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 4

Feats:
R: Able Learner
1: Power Attack
3: Knowledge Devotion, Combat Casting
6: Versatile Spellcaster
9: Arcane Strike
12: Obtain Familiar / Item Familiar / Smiting Spell
15: Combat Expertise
EK: Improved Trip
18: Extra Slot

[Baroknik]

I'm sure there's some way Tome of Battle can make whips usable.

Mountain hammer on a whip? That's fantastic.

Setting Sun is where it's at for whip users! "Clever Wrestling" = SPROING!

[Phelix-Mu]

I am a big fan of the nagaika, from Masters of the Wild. To the best of my knowledge, never reprinted for 3.5, so still valid! Should work with at least some of the above ideas on how to use a whip.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Other then the 3.0 Lasher PrC class, what ways are there to offensively use a whip. (Also ignore "Pyrokineticist" because I don't see it as a true whip)


What you think, and what is, are two different things.

Specifically, the class mentions the whip is made from 'unstable ectoplasm' which is certainly a thing of substance. Nothing stops it from acting like a normal whip.

In fact, it makes it better.

And even if you want to ignore an at-will manifesting, automatically touch-attacking whip made of flame and ecto-stuff... The class itself still provides useful abilities. Weapon aflame, for example.

And now, I need to go rewatch that scene with the Balrog from The Lord of the Rings. Stupid Wizard, vandalizing bridges.

[A.A.King]

What you think, and what is, are two different things.

Specifically, the class mentions the whip is made from 'unstable ectoplasm' which is certainly a thing of substance. Nothing stops it from acting like a normal whip.

In fact, it makes it better.

And even if you want to ignore an at-will manifesting, automatically touch-attacking whip made of flame and ecto-stuff... The class itself still provides useful abilities. Weapon aflame, for example.

And now, I need to go rewatch that scene with the Balrog from The Lord of the Rings. Stupid Wizard, vandalizing bridges.

The fire lash is very different from the Whip itself. The Fire is described as a "whip of fire" but is not actually a whip so it's not a trip weapon. Also, because you make a ranged touch attack, you can't use it for disarm without taking the "Ranged Disarm" feat (and even then you don't get the Whip's +2). The fact that it is a ranged touch attack also prevents you from using the Fire Lash to use Arcane Channeling, another thing a whip is actually quite good for. It also only solves the damage dealing problem of the whip, you still prove attack of oppertunities from attacking in melee but you don't actually threaten anyone yourself. The fire lash is a nice weapon, but it is not a whip

Weapon Aflame could possible increase the damage dealt by your whip but you still run into the same problem that you run into when you try to improve the whip's damage with Sneak Attack or "Mountain Hammer". If your opponent has an Armor Bonus of +1 (which means that the whip can't deal damage) does that also negate the extra damage?. When the whip doesn't deal damage does that mean that damage = 0 (Base damage of whip) + Possible Extra Damage or should we see the extra damage as being generated by the whip (which would mean it would also become 0). But either way it hardly makes the Pyrokineticist a good choice to improve the whip.

The point of the Fire Lash being a whip is only really relevant for (feats like) Power Attack.


Whip it...Whip it good.

I love the image of using my whip to make people dance and that is a very nice build indeed.



Setting Sun is where it's at for whip users! "Clever Wrestling" = SPROING!

Yes, mighty throw and it's higher level counterparts seem perfect for a Whip, but the Swordsage himself doesn't seem to have that much synergy with it.


I am a big fan of the nagaika, from Masters of the Wild. To the best of my knowledge, never reprinted for 3.5, so still valid! Should work with at least some of the above ideas on how to use a whip.

I don't know the nagaika and don't have "Master's of the Wild" what does it add to the whip?

[NotScaryBats]

Sudden Stunning Mighty (+3) Warning Whip Dagger +1 (10,725 gp)
+5 init, swift action on hit to stun for 1d4+1 rds, save dc scales off your cha
you can ignore the +1 and Warning if you are strapped for cash.

[Phelix-Mu]

Nagaika: The nagaika is a leather lash studded with
glass. Unlike the whip, it deals normal damage and can
damage armored foes. Although you keep it in your
hand, treat it as a projectile weapon with a maximum
range of 15 feet and no range penalties.
Because the nagaika can wrap around an enemy’s leg
or other limb, you can make trip attacks with it. You can
drop it to avoid being tripped during your own trip attempt.
You also gain a –2 bonus on your opposed attack
rolls when using the nagaika to disarm an opponent (including
the roll to keep from being disarmed if your
attempt tails).
Nagaika, Mighty: A character who takes Exotic
Weapon Proficiency (nagaika) is also proficient with
the mighty nagaika. This weapon is made of exceptionally
strong leather, which allows the user to apply his or
her Strength bonus on damage rolls (within the
weapon’s limit).

1d6/x3, slashing, 4lbs...5lbs for the mighty version. I just always liked the imagery better.

[da_chicken]

Personally, I always thought the imagery of a whip dagger was profoundly stupid. You don't have that kind of control over a whip.

I much prefer going the Castlevania way. A series of metal balls woven into the whip with a small ball on the end of a whip makes a heavy whip. Some have a small spiked ball on the end, but this does not appreciably add to the weapon's damage. 1d6/x2, slashing.

Mighty whips are, instead, chain whips. You need the strength because of the weight of the chain, so you suffer the same penalty with overstrong spiked chain whips that you do with composite bows.

[Curmudgeon]

Also, a 30ft reach with enlarge person is hard to beat, even if you can't make AOO's with it.
You don't get 30' reach. The whip has 15' reach, which is not a function of your natural reach or the size of the whip. Increasing from Medium to Large doubles your natural reach, not your weapon's.

[Prime32]

Personally, I always thought the imagery of a whip dagger was profoundly stupid. You don't have that kind of control over a whip.Um... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_dart) :smallconfused:

[da_chicken]

Um... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_dart) :smallconfused:

If that's a whip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IPl2tFNihc), I'm Indiana Jones.

You might convince me that it counts as a chain, kawanaga without the grapple or kusari-gama from Oriental Adventures, but it's as much a whip as a scimitar is a longsword.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Touche on the Flame Lash not getting whip special properties, I concede the point.

On the other hand, ranged touch attack = ranged weapon. Go take Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot.

Manyshot is debatable, depending on if your DM (and/or you) consider that applicable to any ranged weapons, or just bows specifically. (RAW vs RAI)

Actually, aside from your pitiful range limitation (barring a wish to make it longer, maybe) there's really not much stopping you from doing just about anything with the Flame Lash that you could with any other projectile weapon.

And while it's true, the Flame Lash doesn't get tripping and such, making it harder to do, you can't be disarmed of it. Ever. Oh, the DM may rule you have to drop it to avoid being tripped yourself, but nothing stops you from manifesting it again, and again, and again.

Infinitely.

Because short of an Anti-magic/psionic field (and even then, maybe not) there's nothing stopping you from arming yourself, whenever you wish. Because you can.

Burn, baby, burn.

[A.A.King]

Touche on the Flame Lash not getting whip special properties, I concede the point.

On the other hand, ranged touch attack = ranged weapon. Go take Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot.

Manyshot is debatable, depending on if your DM (and/or you) consider that applicable to any ranged weapons, or just bows specifically. (RAW vs RAI)

Actually, aside from your pitiful range limitation (barring a wish to make it longer, maybe) there's really not much stopping you from doing just about anything with the Flame Lash that you could with any other projectile weapon.

And while it's true, the Flame Lash doesn't get tripping and such, making it harder to do, you can't be disarmed of it. Ever. Oh, the DM may rule you have to drop it to avoid being tripped yourself, but nothing stops you from manifesting it again, and again, and again.

Infinitely.

Because short of an Anti-magic/psionic field (and even then, maybe not) there's nothing stopping you from arming yourself, whenever you wish. Because you can.

Burn, baby, burn.

But none of those things make it a better whip. It may be a better weapon with the feel of a whip, but it's not a whip. If you only want to use a whip because you think it looks epic and need a way to be able to deal damage then the Fire Lash might be the thing for you. If however you want to use a whip because of all the other possibilities it can over then the Fire Lash is nowhere near a replacement.

[Deaxsa]

Another combat use for the whip: Demoralization. great for bards, seeing as they get it for free, and are cha-based people already. You have to take demoralizing strike, or whatver it's called, though.

also, now i want to make a duskblade/pyro :smalltongue:

[Shining Wrath]

Friend ran a whip-wielding bard and found out: a whip does not threaten.

That puts a cramp in some builds.

[A.A.King]

Another combat use for the whip: Demoralization. great for bards, seeing as they get it for free, and are cha-based people already. You have to take demoralizing strike, or whatver it's called, though.

also, now i want to make a duskblade/pyro :smalltongue:

I don't know "demoralizing strike" is, what is it supposed to do?

Also remember: You can't combine "Arcane Channeling "with a "Fire Lash" making the Duskblade/Pyro not that good of a combo

[ArqArturo]

I think there's a warlock incantation that allows you to use eldritch blast as a melee weapon... but you may as well just go for ranged touch attack at 60ft than 15ft regular attack.

Take scout/rogue and add skirmish/sneak attack damage?

That's Hideous Blow, which honors that name quite correctly.

[Talionis]

Whip Climber skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) allows you to use a whip as a grappling hook. Since it only costs 2 skill points its some value once you've decided you are playing with a whip.

[Shining Wrath]

Whip Climber skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) allows you to use a whip as a grappling hook. Since it only costs 2 skill points its some value once you've decided you are playing with a whip.

Both Indiana Jones and Simon Belmont took this feat.

[Eldest]

Both Indiana Jones and Simon Belmont took this feat.

More like it was created for them specifically. :smalltongue:

[dantiesilva]

My friend is using a whip for her bard right now and it has proven very useful in combat mixed with the spel whiriling blade. Allowing her a very large attack range on enemies. Add in her charisma score modifier is +10 so she gets +10 to attack and damage making it much more worth it in a battle.being able to hit everything in a 75x30 space that you consider an enemy is very useful, even if only one attack each. At level 10 with +17 to attack thanks to the spell and 1d3+14 damage (the 4 from inspire courage) it dealt with two allips almost on its own.

[Prime32]

My friend is using a whip for her bard right now and it has proven very useful in combat mixed with the spel whiriling blade. Allowing her a very large attack range on enemies. Add in her charisma score modifier is +10 so she gets +10 to attack and damage making it much more worth it in a battle.being able to hit everything in a 75x30 space that you consider an enemy is very useful, even if only one attack each. At level 10 with +17 to attack thanks to the spell and 1d3+14 damage (the 4 from inspire courage) it dealt with two allips almost on its own.:smallconfused: Whirling Blade is a 60ft line. The reach of your weapon doesn't affect it.

[Captnq]

My Sig. Get the EVD. Combat equipment. Extrapolated WSAs.

CONVOLUTION
- COMPLETE PSIONIC (3.5)
[CHAIN OF CONVOLUTION]
Price: 22,380 gp
Property: Chain/Whip
Manifest Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate (DC 22) psychokinesis
Activation: Standard (mental)
Range: Threat Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 11 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: Yes
This can be activated twice a day. When activated, a chain of convolution grants you the benefit of telekinetic maneuver. However, you can perform only the bull rush, disarm, and trip maneuvers with the weapon.
Editor (telekinetic maneuver): You can affect a foe by concentrating your mind upon its current status and the status you desire, once per round. You can perform a bull rush, a disarm, or a trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use the manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (which is 11) for disarms. You use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as normally allowed on disarm or trip attempts). No save is allowed against these attempts, but power resistance applies normally.
Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power grants a +1 bonus on your checks involving bull rush, disarm, or trip attempts. The points must be spent at the time of activation.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinetic maneuver
Editor: Even if you don’t have psionics, this is cool. It’s the re-targeting effect that makes it awesome. Plus you use the weapon’s ML instead of your BAB when you try to disarm, which might be awesome, depending on your class and level.

ENTANGLING
- ARMS AND EQUIPMENT GUIDE (3.0)
[CHAIN OF ENTANGLING]
Price: +2 Bonus
Property: Chain/Whip
Caster Level: 6th
Aura: Faint (DC 19) conjuration
Activation: —
This weapon wraps around foes, entrapping them and dealing continuous damage. On a successful hit, an entangling weapon allows its wielder to attempt to grapple the target. On subsequent attacks, the wielder can attempt to hold the target in the chain. Treat the attack as a normal hold attempt that it deals the damage of the spiked chain rather than unarmed damage. The target may attempt to break the grapple as normal.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Evard’s black tentacles
Editor: The ability to add grapple with a chain or whip is not to be taken lightly. Yes, a bit on the expensive side, put removing someone from the combat is just as good as killing them if you have allies. And if you happen to use a one-handed weapon, or make your spiked chain one-handed, there is no reason you couldn’t still attack with your off hand while holding someone at bay.

QUEEN
- UNDERDARK (3.5)
[QUEEN’S SCOURGE]
Price: 29,200 gp
Property: Whips/Chains
Caster Level: 12th
Aura: Strong (DC 21) evocation
Activation: Free (Mental)
Once per day, the wielder can choose to affect a living creature struck by the queen’s scourge with inflict critical wounds, dealing 4d8+12 points of damage (Will DC 17 half) in addition to the weapon’s normal damage.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, inflict critical wounds
Editor: Meh. Stacking damage is okay.

STRAPPED
- MAGIC ITEM COMPENDIUM (3.5)
[LASH OF SANDS]
Price: 4,000 gp
Property: Whips
Caster Level: 12th
Aura: Strong (DC 21) necromancy
Activation: Free (mental)
Prerequisite: Desiccating Burst
This WSA retains the qualities of its prerequisite. This +1 desiccating burst whip is twice as heavy as a normal whip, deals lethal damage, and is effective even against opponents in armor. Once per day, you can activate the whip when you strike an opponent with it. Doing so creates a mass of leather bindings that enwrap the target, entangling it as if with a net for 3 rounds or until it escapes. Each round the creature remains entangled, it takes 1d4 points of damage, or 1d8 points if it is a plant or an elemental that has the water subtype. Nonliving creatures take no damage from this effect.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, animate rope, desiccate
Editor: I see no reason why you couldn’t use this with chains as well, but since it explicitly makes whips effective against armor, I feel I have to list it as whips only.

TENDRIL
- MAGIC ITEM COMPENDIUM (3.5)
[ASSASSIN WHIP]
Price: 3,000 gp
Property: Whip
Caster Level: 5th
Aura: Faint (DC 17) transmutation
Activation: Free (mental)
Twice per day, you can activate this WSA after successfully hitting a Medium or smaller target that is standing on the ground. Doing this causes tendrils of vegetation to spring forth from the ground, entangling the target and dealing 2d6 points of damage per round. This effect lasts for 3 rounds or until the affected creature escapes from the tendrils (a DC 20 Strength check or DC 20 Escape Artist check made as a full-round action).
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, entangle
Editor (Entangled): The character is ensnared. Be cause the bonds are anchored to an immobile object (the ground), the target cannot move An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.
Editor: In theory you could buy this for any weapon (but not ammo), but due to the description on the source weapon, I believe this is a whip only property. When in doubt, I err on the side of caution.

WEBS
- SAVAGE SPECIES (3.0)
- MAGIC ITEM COMPENDIUM (3.5)
[WHIP OF WEBS]
Price: 4,000 gp
Property: Whips
Caster Level: 6th
Aura: Moderate (DC 18) evocation
Activation: Touch Attack
When you strike a creature you can activate it to wrap the target in a web of tough, leathery filaments. The creature is entangled as if by a net for 3 rounds or until it escapes. Multiple strikes by a whip of webs aren’t cumulative. This ability functions three times per day.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, web
Editor: Meh.



Now, if you mean, How can I make the most AWESOME whip ever... well... Here's something to try to get past your DM.

Start with a whip-dagger.

A dagger is assumed to be about a foot in length. Since a whip dagger is a dagger on the end of a whip, we can assume the dagger part is 1' long.

A spear spikard is based on a shortspear, which is on average 4 feet long. So to put a spear-spikard on the end of a whip-dagger would require you to reduce the speak spikard's size class by two.

So now the end of your whip has a one use spike that launches when you fire it. of course the damage is reduced as well, to a mere +1d3. Not that impressive.

However, we go to eberron and get the bloodspike. Then we take our Whip-Spear Spikard and use Quickloading a +1 WSA (it states "Loading a spear spikard is equivalent to loading a light crossbow" so it qualifies for quickloading) Now we can store 100 units of ammunition in our whip-spear spikard. That ammunition will be Bloodspikes.

Now we will buy our bloodspikes as +1 ammunition and add the WSA assassination. This allows us to increase the DC of any poison our bloodspikes by the enhancement bonus of the weapon. It also allows us to put poison in the bloodspikes with no fear of injuring ourselves.

But far more importantly, it allows us to COAT the bloodspikes with poison.

So, we put nasty nasty injury poison on the inside of the bloodspikes, and a secondary poison on the outside.

So, now our whip-Spear spikard is a 1d6 weapon that does an additional 1d3 damage as it fires a Bloodspike into our enemy, then the enemy has to make not one, but TWO Fortitude saves as DC X + the weapon's EB.

Of course you need a DM who will allow you to mangle the rules in such a fashion, but I stand by my extrapolated figures.

[A.A.King]

I'm not a fan of extrapolated figures, though you make reference to some items which are nice (the whips from MiC are very interesting for a whip centric build)


The Whip Climb skill trick is nice, but I'm not sure that it will be helpful on a build which isn't also (or mainly) skill orientated.

[Tohsaka Rin]

It seems like you have a rather specific window you want to hit for a whip-wielder.

Could you perhaps define what you have in mind, so that (speaking for myself here, using 'we' to be polite) we have an idea of what your criteria are?

It does have to be exact, but a few loose requirements might make it easier to get you what you're looking for.

[A.A.King]

It seems like you have a rather specific window you want to hit for a whip-wielder.

Could you perhaps define what you have in mind, so that (speaking for myself here, using 'we' to be polite) we have an idea of what your criteria are?

It does have to be exact, but a few loose requirements might make it easier to get you what you're looking for.

Simple Definition
The best standard issue weapon for a whip wielder should be the whip and should be for non-arbitrary reasons. He should be most effective when using a wh He may optimize his whip by using magically generated whips or a very expensive whip with all kinds of abilities but if the magic runs out or the expensive whip gets broken then the second best thing should still be a whip.

(With standard issue I mean from the Player's handbook as is, no modifications or special abilities crafted on)

I'm looking for ways on how the Whip from the Player's Handbook can be utilized in a combat setting. Trying to maximize what the whip offers (Tripping, 15 ft. reach) and trying to minimize the problems the whip has (You provoke AoO, you don't threaten with it, it doesn't deal damage to most opponents). Making the whip a meaningful choice, trying to create a build which doesn't get better by handing the guy a different weapon. And the Fire Lash just is a totally different weapon, a build which optimizes the Fire Lash is going to look completely different from one that optimizes the normal whip. The best builds which use a Fire Lash probably don't even have EWP (Whip) and when the Fire Lash doesn't work they are better off when resorting to a bow.

[Ravens_cry]

Where there's a whip *crack* there's a way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y). Not really anything to add, but, damn that song is catchy.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I think the main problem is that as a weapon, the whip is pretty lack-luster and sub-par.

As a tool, it's an excellent device. Substituting for a short rope and grappling hook, a tripping device, a disarming tool, and delivering touch spells when needed.

If you're using it as anything like a direct combat weapon, you're using the wrong tool, for the wrong job.

There's a reason why people who focus on power attack use two-handed weapons.

There's a reason why two-weapon style users choose light weapons (most of the time).

If you're trying to take a niche weapon out of its comfort-zone, you're bound to run into problems. You're also going to get a lot of people saying 'use the right tool, for the right job'.

A whip just isn't a main-combat weapon. That's why the whip-dagger even exists in the first place. Heck, that's why the spiked chain exists.

It's just a plain fact that a whip-user is more effective with a whip-like device, than a plain 'ol whip. You can argue against that, but at the end of the day, if something functions like a whip, but does a better job overall, then it's by default the better tool for the job.

That's why people use chainsaws to cut lumber, even though wood axes exist. Sure, you have to invest more, taking it in for repairs, and providing it with fuel and oil, and fresh chains, but you get out what you invest.

...Of course, there's nothing stopping someone from having both on hand, and getting the best of both worlds. Be prepared and whatnot.

[Bloodgruve]

Simple Definition
The best standard issue weapon for a whip wielder should be the whip and should be for non-arbitrary reasons. He should be most effective when using a wh He may optimize his whip by using magically generated whips or a very expensive whip with all kinds of abilities but if the magic runs out or the expensive whip gets broken then the second best thing should still be a whip.

(With standard issue I mean from the Player's handbook as is, no modifications or special abilities crafted on)

I'm looking for ways on how the Whip from the Player's Handbook can be utilized in a combat setting. Trying to maximize what the whip offers (Tripping, 15 ft. reach) and trying to minimize the problems the whip has (You provoke AoO, you don't threaten with it, it doesn't deal damage to most opponents). Making the whip a meaningful choice, trying to create a build which doesn't get better by handing the guy a different weapon. And the Fire Lash just is a totally different weapon, a build which optimizes the Fire Lash is going to look completely different from one that optimizes the normal whip. The best builds which use a Fire Lash probably don't even have EWP (Whip) and when the Fire Lash doesn't work they are better off when resorting to a bow.

I don't think you have any really great options with the PHB whip. I think your best options would be Bard+(Warblade or Crusader) but you would have to rely on maneuvers to do damage.

The only other really viable options are Whip Dagger or the PF whip feats that have already been stated.

Tripping isn't even that good with a whip as you lack attacks of oppertunity -but- Disarm could be a route to go.

I played a Bard with TWF/Oversized TWF wielding dual whip-daggers. It was pretty nice for second or third rank damage dealing but the concept of wielding 15' whips in a 10' wide dungeon attacking through your allies was a bit convoluted ;)

My suggestions for a phb whip wielder;

*Bard1>WarbladeX Bard 3/Warblade X with Song of the White Raven and Song of the Heart. Pick up a Water Whip asap.
GL
Blood~

*Edit as pointed out below.

[A.A.King]

I think the main problem is that as a weapon, the whip is pretty lack-luster and sub-par.

As a tool, it's an excellent device. Substituting for a short rope and grappling hook, a tripping device, a disarming tool, and delivering touch spells when needed.

If you're using it as anything like a direct combat weapon, you're using the wrong tool, for the wrong job.

There's a reason why people who focus on power attack use two-handed weapons.

There's a reason why two-weapon style users choose light weapons (most of the time).

If you're trying to take a niche weapon out of its comfort-zone, you're bound to run into problems. You're also going to get a lot of people saying 'use the right tool, for the right job'.

A whip just isn't a main-combat weapon. That's why the whip-dagger even exists in the first place. Heck, that's why the spiked chain exists.

It's just a plain fact that a whip-user is more effective with a whip-like device, than a plain 'ol whip. You can argue against that, but at the end of the day, if something functions like a whip, but does a better job overall, then it's by default the better tool for the job.

That's why people use chainsaws to cut lumber, even though wood axes exist. Sure, you have to invest more, taking it in for repairs, and providing it with fuel and oil, and fresh chains, but you get out what you invest.

...Of course, there's nothing stopping someone from having both on hand, and getting the best of both worlds. Be prepared and whatnot.
I know the whip is a subpar weapon, doesn't mean one can't try to optimize the things it does offer, that's the challenge....
Also, take a look at the build posted by gorfnab at the first page. The Bard/Duskblade build makes great use of the whip's reach and I don't think there is any weapon that would have been better for it. The 15 ft reach of the whip means that has the biggest chance of being able to hit 4 different targets.

Yes, the Spiked Chain (unlike the Fire Lash) does a lot of the things a whip does better. It removes all the weakness the whip has and replaces it with a lesser reach and the fact that it has to be two handed (which usually isn't a weakness).

Still, I think you just don't quit understanding the challenge here. The trick is not to find the thing that is one step better, because then we'll eventually just end up with some kind of crazy druid build. I'm just looking for ways to mitigate the weaknesses that a whip has and for other ways to amplify the strengths it has. My refusal to use the Whip Dagger might be a bit arbitrary and is probably making it more difficult then it has to be but that still doesn't mean that I should change the idea and go with the Fire Lash which calls it self a whip but does even less of the things I want a whip to do. If it can't trip, it's not a whip. And if it can't be used to deliver Strikes or Spells (Arcane Channeling) then it can't do the single greatest thing a whip can.


I don't think you have any really great options with the PHB whip. I think your best options would be Bard+(Warblade or Crusader) but you would have to rely on maneuvers to do damage.

The only other really viable options are Whip Dagger or the PF whip feats that have already been stated.

Tripping isn't even that good with a whip as you lack attacks of oppertunity -but- Disarm could be a route to go.

I played a Bard with TWF/Oversized TWF wielding dual whip-daggers. It was pretty nice for second or third rank damage dealing but the concept of wielding 15' whips in a 10' wide dungeon attacking through your allies was a bit convoluted ;)

My suggestions for a phb whip wielder;

Bard1>WarbladeX with Song of the White Raven and Song of the Heart. Pick up a Water Whip asap.
GL
Blood~

Two Weapon Fighting is definitely something the whip is good at. I think it's quit the good off-hand weapon.
Warblade and Crusader are nice to use if you find the right maneuvers but when building a "Bardblade" or "Bardsader" the standard advice is to go Bard 4/TOB X because you need atleast 3 Bard levels to be able take "Song of the Heart" (it requires Inspire Competence)

[Tohsaka Rin]

I didn't mean for my comments to sound like 'whip sucks, use something better', as much as I was meaning 'you're probably already getting as much mileage out of the vanilla whip as you can'.

Truth be told, there's just not too much more you can DO with a whip, that you haven't figured out how to do already.

I suppose adding sizing, and using either expansion or two hands/both of those options, and balanced are good choices.

[A.A.King]

I didn't mean for my comments to sound like 'whip sucks, use something better', as much as I was meaning 'you're probably already getting as much mileage out of the vanilla whip as you can'.

Truth be told, there's just not too much more you can DO with a whip, that you haven't figured out how to do already.

I suppose adding sizing, and using either expansion or two hands/both of those options, and balanced are good choices.

I guess I took your comment the wrong way then. And I think you are probably right, in that there are most likely no other things left which can improve the whip which haven't already been mentioned.
Currently I'm working on a Whip + Shield combo so two handed isn't really an option.

EDIT:
I just found the "Maiden of Pain" prestige class, build around whip wielding as well (and had not yet been mentioned)