Do Plant Type PC's still need a Will Save?

[Oddman80]

Looking to farms some player knowledge here.

Given that plant traits include immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning...

Is there any reason a Plant type character would need to invest in a good will save?

I am a new player and I may be missing something here, but i thought all will saves were to protect against mind-affecting effects. If there are other common ones a character should be concerned about, please let me know - i am trying to build a character, and i don't want to waist points/time/feats on things that are unnecessary.

Thanks!

[HaikenEdge]

Depends on whether you DM uses illusions much, since saves vs Illusions are also Will-based.

[Lightlawbliss]

Looking to farms some player knowledge here.

Given that plant traits include immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning...

Is there any reason a Plant type character would need to invest in a good will save?

I am a new player and I may be missing something here, but i thought all will saves were to protect against mind-affecting effects. If there are other common ones a character should be concerned about, please let me know - i am trying to build a character, and i don't want to waist points/time/feats on things that are unnecessary.

Thanks!

Will saves are more then just mind effecting. however, mind effecting is a large portion of will saves.
will is commonly related to save/suck spells. I would recomend asking you dm what sources aree avalable as that has a large effect on how big an advantage immunity to mind effecting is.

[Ianuagonde]

Most spells that deal with movement require Will saves. Slow, Baleful Transposition, Plane Shift, that sort of thing. There are a few others like Glitterdust, but most Will saves are indeed required by mind-affecting stuff.

[Oddman80]

Will saves are more then just mind effecting. however, mind effecting is a large portion of will saves.
will is commonly related to save/suck spells. I would recomend asking you dm what sources aree avalable as that has a large effect on how big an advantage immunity to mind effecting is.

All WoTC material is available (minus Tome of Battle & Tome of Magic). 2nd Party, & 3rd Party not available.

[Oddman80]

All WoTC material is available (minus Tome of Battle & Tome of Magic). 2nd Party, & 3rd Party not available.

From what i have been able to find - it seems like the only will-save or DIE spell that isn't mind-affecting is a Druid's unearthy beauty... so as long as i don't look at any druids...

so that's something at least...

[torrasque666]

Is that a [Death] effect or not? Because I have a Warforged Juggernaut and I'm trying to see if I need to start investing in a good will save.

[Shining Wrath]

Glitterdust. Will save or blindness.
Bestow Curse. Will save or badness.
Color Spray. Will save or badness.

There's more but those 3 are on pretty much every wizard's list.

[TuggyNE]

From what i have been able to find - it seems like the only will-save or DIE spell that isn't mind-affecting is a Druid's unearthy beauty... so as long as i don't look at any druids...

That's nymphs. Druids don't have any such thing. :smallconfused:

Also, save-or-dies are only slightly more painful than save-or-loses, and even a save-or-gimp can be pretty bad. Sure, color spray if you have 13 HD is only going to stun you for a round on a failed save, but that's still pretty bad.

In Core, relevant Will saves come from Mordenkainen's disjunction (item saves or your own), chaos hammer/unholy blight/order's wrath/holy smite, harm, telekinesis, scrying, bestow curse, glitterdust, assorted illusions, and two that are unique vulnerabilities of your type: control plants and command plants. "Dominate, except no immunity possible" doesn't sound so great, now does it?

[Anlashok]

From what i have been able to find - it seems like the only will-save or DIE spell that isn't mind-affecting is a Druid's unearthy beauty...

Nailed to the Sky isn't a defacto save or die spell but it does make you drown and take a decent amount of damage each round and it's difficult to escape if you don't have a greater teleport (etc.) on hand.

[geekintheground]

That's nymphs. Druids don't have any such thing. :smallconfused:

Also, save-or-dies are only slightly more painful than save-or-loses, and even a save-or-gimp can be pretty bad. Sure, color spray if you have 13 HD is only going to stun you for a round on a failed save, but that's still pretty bad.

In Core, relevant Will saves come from Mordenkainen's disjunction (item saves or your own), chaos hammer/unholy blight/order's wrath/holy smite, harm, telekinesis, scrying, bestow curse, glitterdust, assorted illusions, and two that are unique vulnerabilities of your type: control plants and command plants. "Dominate, except no immunity possible" doesn't sound so great, now does it?

actually, Unearthly Beauty is an 8th level druid spell that makes you so beautiful people might die by looking at you.

[AlanBruce]

actually, Unearthly Beauty is an 8th level druid spell that makes you so beautiful people might die by looking at you.

I was rereading the nymph's entry in the 3.5 MM. They have Blinding Beauty, but they cannot kill you by simply looking at you.

I do recall, however, that 2nd ed. gave the nymph a deathly beauty gaze or somesuch which did exactly that.

[geekintheground]

I was rereading the nymph's entry in the 3.5 MM. They have Blinding Beauty, but they cannot kill you by simply looking at you.

I do recall, however, that 2nd ed. gave the nymph a deathly beauty gaze or somesuch which did exactly that.

which is funny because Blinding Beauty is a 4th level bard spell (based, of course, on the nymph's ability)

[Alex12]

Looking to farms some player knowledge here.

Given that plant traits include immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning...

Is there any reason a Plant type character would need to invest in a good will save?

I am a new player and I may be missing something here, but i thought all will saves were to protect against mind-affecting effects. If there are other common ones a character should be concerned about, please let me know - i am trying to build a character, and i don't want to waist points/time/feats on things that are unnecessary.

Thanks!

Will saves aren't just against mind-affecting. Constructs and Undead are similarly-sized slabs of immunities compared to plants, and Will saves are still somewhat important to them.

[TuggyNE]

actually, Unearthly Beauty is an 8th level druid spell that makes you so beautiful people might die by looking at you.

I had completely forgotten about that.

[ShurikVch]

Destruction Mantle.
Intellect Bomb
Will save or Die

[Oddman80]

Intellect Bomb
Will save or Die

I forgot to consider Psionics... never played with one before. However i know that one of the members in the group is going to be playing one, so psionics are in play in the DMs world.

As far as


In Core, relevant Will saves come from Mordenkainen's disjunction (item saves or your own), chaos hammer/unholy blight/order's wrath/holy smite, harm, telekinesis, scrying, bestow curse, glitterdust, assorted illusions, and two that are unique vulnerabilities of your type: control plants and command plants. "Dominate, except no immunity possible" doesn't sound so great, now does it?
The character I would be playing would just have plant traits, but not be of a plant type. It would maintain Humanoid / Human for type/subtype

[Larkas]

I was rereading the nymph's entry in the 3.5 MM. They have Blinding Beauty, but they cannot kill you by simply looking at you.

I do recall, however, that 2nd ed. gave the nymph a deathly beauty gaze or somesuch which did exactly that.

IIRC, they had the deadly version in 3.0.

[Chronos]

That said, though, most things that require will saves are mind-effecting, so if you're immune to mind-effecting, will saves are definitely a much lower priority for you than they are for most characters. They're not completely useless, and if you can improve them for free you should, but if you have to spend some sort of resource (feats, gold, etc.) to improve your Will save, you might decide that it's better to spend that on something else.

[Talya]

actually, Unearthly Beauty is an 8th level druid spell that makes you so beautiful people might die by looking at you.

My VOP exalted-druid never actually qualifies to cast this spell, nor it's lower level counterpart, Blinding Beauty.

[georgie_leech]

Will saves are less likely to be as important because you're vulnerable to fewer of them. The ones you are vulnerable to are still crippling though, so you probably shouldn't neglect it.

[Jeff the Green]

My VOP exalted-druid never actually qualifies to cast this spell, nor it's lower level counterpart, Blinding Beauty.

Abstinence components/vows bug me to no end (Beloved of Valerian gets a pass). Sex isn't evil, but abstinence is good? :smallconfused:

[Shining Wrath]

Abstinence components/vows bug me to no end (Beloved of Valerian gets a pass). Sex isn't evil, but abstinence is good? :smallconfused:

Because denying yourself for the sake of others is good - if that's why you're doing it.

[Talya]

Because denying yourself for the sake of others is good - if that's why you're doing it.

Sex is an interesting action from the standpoint that by indulging in it, you are also actively bringing good to your partner. Not indulging it could be considered selfish, then.

[Jeff the Green]

Sex is an interesting action from the standpoint that by indulging in it, you are also actively bringing good to your partner. Not indulging it could be considered selfish, then.

Assuming one is not a stereotypical (possibly just 'typical', given certain statistics) guy, of course.

The other vows could make sense—abstinence (from alcohol and drugs) keeps one's mind clear to allow one to be vigilant about one' sown actions, obedience to appropriate authority can keep one from doing evil out of ignorance, peace and nonviolence are obvious—but purity is just weird and chastity is full of unfortunate implications.

[georgie_leech]

Assuming one is not a stereotypical (possibly just 'typical', given certain statistics) guy, of course.

The other vows could make sense—abstinence (from alcohol and drugs) keeps one's mind clear to allow one to be vigilant about one' sown actions, obedience to appropriate authority can keep one from doing evil out of ignorance, peace and nonviolence are obvious—but purity is just weird and chastity is full of unfortunate implications.

A lot of the trouble goes away if you view the Vows as inherently Lawful rather than Good; I suspect this was a case of personal ethics sneaking their way into the writing.

[TuggyNE]

The character I would be playing would just have plant traits, but not be of a plant type. It would maintain Humanoid / Human for type/subtype

Huh. How does that work, and what's the LA?

[AuraTwilight]

Uh...it's worth pointing out that not every creature under a specific type gets all those traits all the time, and that most plants that demonstrate immunity to mind-affecting effects are also mindless.

So. Yea.

[TuggyNE]

Uh...it's worth pointing out that not every creature under a specific type gets all those traits all the time

Unless specifically noted, they do get all traits, by definition, as that's just how types work. Counterexample?


and that most plants that demonstrate immunity to mind-affecting effects are also mindless.

This proves nothing, because all* Plants that are not mindless also demonstrate immunity to mind-affecting effects.

*Barring some counterexample I am not aware of, after checking MMI, ELH, and XPH monsters on the SRD.

[Oddman80]

Huh. How does that work, and what's the LA?

The woodling template from Monster Manual III has a +3 LA, but it comes with a whole slew of things beyond Plant Traits. I had a post on here a few days ago looking for advice on how to strip it down to be a +1 LA version. But full plant traits were going to be maintained in order to make sense in the story (it explains why the character is there in the first place).

[TuggyNE]

The woodling template from Monster Manual III has a +3 LA, but it comes with a whole slew of things beyond Plant Traits. I had a post on here a few days ago looking for advice on how to strip it down to be a +1 LA version. But full plant traits were going to be maintained in order to make sense in the story (it explains why the character is there in the first place).

Getting plant traits without the type is (for the reason stated) somewhat more powerful than getting them with the type, for what that's worth.

[Oddman80]

Getting plant traits without the type is (for the reason stated) somewhat more powerful than getting them with the type, for what that's worth.

:smallbiggrin:
Yeah - its a nice perk. I am glad that it works out to be story driven, otherwise it might be a hard sell at +1 LA.