How is Alienist not broken?

[IslandDog]

Hey Playground,
I recently came across the alienist class and was looking at the pseudonatural template it adds to everything.
WOW!
+35 AC (or +25, but anyways), +22 str, tons of abilities, and way more. Even a regular celestial badger becomes an incredibly powerful monster with this. How is it not overpowered?

[AmberVael]

Because there are two templates with the same name, and the Alienist class doesn't use the one in the epic level handbook that you're looking at.

Unsurprisingly, it uses the one in the same book it is in, Complete Arcane (Pages 160-161).

[Eldan]

Yeah. It's actually in the same book. The other pseudonatural template is technically from 3E.

[The Viscount]

Precisely. The pseudonatural template in Complete Arcane is roughly on par with celestial or fiendish, and to pay for it you lose the ability to summon all the sweet outsiders, which is what the summon monster line is for.

[AnonymousPepper]

Hey, don't feel bad, TC. I made the exact same mistake. It threw me for a loop the first time I saw it, too. It's the curse of using the internet to look these things up. Yeah, the epic level template is not the one Alienist uses.

[IslandDog]

That makes WAY more sense, thanks all!
Still seems like a fun class. Is it really not worth losing some of the summon monster line? I'm an Archivist, so I've got summon nature's ally and such.

[Mystia]

The alienist isn't a bad class imo, it's just not anything godly or that you can over-optimize until it's not fun anymore. It's pretty decent, and the fluff is lovecraftian goodness.
I think people mostly dislike how it makes you lose 2 points of wisdom and a few other setbacks it gives, like the penalties to a few skills and losing the ability to summon a few monsters and such.
But, if you feel like it pleases you, it's certainly playable to a good level of decency. You still get full spellcasting, and become Immortal (or Ageless, for what matters) since your capstone actually turns you into an Outsider, none of that Native Outsider awfulness.
I once built an Alienist as an BBEG... it made for a terribly fun adventure, and my players still shudder at the thought of her Pseudonatural Howler familiar :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

It's a summoning class that makes you worse at summoning. Avoid.

[Segev]

The pseudonatural template in Complete Arcane is roughly on par with celestial or fiendish.

How so? The only thing I recall seeing in it that actually changes is that you can assume a horrific appearance that gives others a -1 penalty to hit you. Am I forgetting something? Does it grant a spell-like ability or a stat boost or something?

[HammeredWharf]

How so? The only thing I recall seeing in it that actually changes is that you can assume a horrific appearance that gives others a -1 penalty to hit you. Am I forgetting something? Does it grant a spell-like ability or a stat boost or something?

It also gives you DR, some resistances and True Strike 1/d.

Alienist is alright, but mostly because it's a caster PRC. It doesn't make you better than you'd be normally, but a T1 character is already powerful enough in most games, so I'd go for it.

[Psyren]

That makes WAY more sense, thanks all!
Still seems like a fun class. Is it really not worth losing some of the summon monster line? I'm an Archivist, so I've got summon nature's ally and such.

You lose just about everything that isn't a boring old animal or bug. No mephits, no elementals, no demons, no angels, no fey etc. That's a looooot of utility stripped out of your toolbox. And the template isn't even that great - 1/day true strike and they can go all weird for a whopping -1 to enemy hit for a round.

If you really want that Lovecraftian flavor I recommend you go Anima Mage instead and bind Zceryll. (Or better yet, since you're an Archivist, Anima Priest.)

[Jeff the Green]

You lose just about everything that isn't a boring old animal or bug. No mephits, no elementals, no demons, no angels, no fey etc. That's a looooot of utility stripped out of your toolbox. And the template isn't even that great - 1/day true strike and they can go all weird for a whopping -1 to enemy hit for a round.

If you really want that Lovecraftian flavor I recommend you go Anima Mage instead and bind Zceryll. (Or better yet, since you're an Archivist, Anima Priest.)

I'm playing a spellweaver in an Eberron campaign, and I'm considering squishing together Alienist (sans summon alien) and Fleshwarper (sans graft reserve, graft mastery, and rapid grafting). It ends up being a familiar-focused aberration-/horror-beyond-the stars-themed class with a bunch of little abilities (mad/insane certainty needs rework, though).

[Psyren]

I would keep Summon Alien and just tweak it to not gut your list. I'm okay with it summoning pseudonatural imps and mephits and lantern archons and whatnot. After all, the Far Realm is a giant funhouse-mirrorverse so twisted versions of everything should be there.

[Jeff the Green]

I would keep Summon Alien and just tweak it to not gut your list. I'm okay with it summoning pseudonatural imps and mephits and lantern archons and whatnot. After all, the Far Realm is a giant funhouse-mirrorverse so twisted versions of everything should be there.

That works. Another option is to create an entirely separate list of aberrations and Things Man Was Not Meant to Summon. It's a fair amount of work, but not too hard.

[ngilop]

shameless plug for my own revisioned Alienist and psuedantural template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?311379-Insert-fixed-PrC-here!&p=16304386&viewfull=1#post16304386)

i based it off the malconvoker and such to make the speudo summons a bit better.

[Vizzerdrix]

One of the Dragon Mags had a nifty little feat that worked like mother cyst, but added a bunch of Far Realm themed spells to your character. I don't remember what it was called though.

[Necroticplague]

One of the Dragon Mags had a nifty little feat that worked like mother cyst, but added a bunch of Far Realm themed spells to your character. I don't remember what it was called though.

Its called Cerebrosis, the spells were called cerebrotic spells, and they had something to do with holes in the world to the Far Realm called "Cerebral Blots". Have you access to a summon that could turn on you once summoned.

[Graypairofsocks]

Its called Cerebrosis, the spells were called cerebrotic spells, and they had something to do with holes in the world to the Far Realm called "Cerebral Blots". Have you access to a summon that could turn on you once summoned.

Was it related to the Blood Elemental (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030208a)?

[ShurikVch]

Its called Cerebrosis, the spells were called cerebrotic spells, and they had something to do with holes in the world to the Far Realm called "Cerebral Blots". Have you access to a summon that could turn on you once summoned. IIRR, not all summons can turn this way. Kaotric Hulk can, but anything else..?

And the best thing - Cerebrosis is always a bonus feat! If DM is OK with it, handful of gp - and you get it

[Chronos]

Alienist is exactly what a caster prestige class should be. It gives you some things, and takes away some other things, and provides a lot more flavor than the base class.

Unfortunately, there are so many poorly-designed PrCs out there, that give you something for nothing, that Alienist ends up looking bad, by virtue of its proper design.

[Necroticplague]

IIRR, not all summons can turn this way. Kaotric Hulk can, but anything else..?

Note my use of singular "a". Most of them are only pretty so-so, but the one that can turn isn't too bad (ignoring fact it can turn), and one makes a decent meatshield (looks like a giant tick).

[Psyren]

Alienist is exactly what a caster prestige class should be. It gives you some things, and takes away some other things, and provides a lot more flavor than the base class.

I have no problem with it taking things away - the problem is that the things it takes away are the things it's supposed to be making you better at doing. It would be like if Arcane Trickster made it harder for you to be stealthy or Soulcaster prevented you from using half the soulmelds on your list or something.

[Chronos]

Eh, I don't view Alienist's purpose as being "make you better at summoning". I view it as being specifically to "make you better at summoning Things that Should Not Be from Realms that Man was Not Meant to Know". And it is good at that. It's just bad at summoning Things that Should Be from Realms that Man Was Meant to Know.

[Flickerdart]

Eh, I don't view Alienist's purpose as being "make you better at summoning". I view it as being specifically to "make you better at summoning Things that Should Not Be from Realms that Man was Not Meant to Know". And it is good at that. It's just bad at summoning Things that Should Be from Realms that Man Was Meant to Know.
No it isn't. It's good at summoning rubber forehead versions of boring rubbish monsters.

[Rubik]

shameless plug for my own revisioned Alienist and psuedantural template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?311379-Insert-fixed-PrC-here!&p=16304386&viewfull=1#post16304386)

i based it off the malconvoker and such to make the speudo summons a bit better.Speedo summons? I'd take a lot more than just a -1 to hit if I was looking at something like that with tentacle-mouths and oozing eyes.

[Psyren]

Eh, I don't view Alienist's purpose as being "make you better at summoning". I view it as being specifically to "make you better at summoning Things that Should Not Be from Realms that Man was Not Meant to Know". And it is good at that. It's just bad at summoning Things that Should Be from Realms that Man Was Meant to Know.

That's just it though - why can't something with the abilities of an Imp or Mephit hail from A Realm That Man Wasn't Meant To Know? Despite all the ineffability and chaos that realm is fluffed with, the stuff that Alienists can pull out of it is ultimately very pedestrian. When you get right down to it, a pseudonatural monkey is not all that different from a celestial one except cosmetically.

I mean, if they replaced all those outsiders/fey/magical beasts/elementals and let you summon a suite of aberrations/oozes instead I'd be all for it. Worse still, we know that all the creatures that Alienist chops off the entry class's summoning list can be pseudonatural - both the template itself and the Zceryll vestige make this abundantly clear. So it ends up being just an arbitrary limitation.

[ngilop]

Speedo summons? I'd take a lot more than just a -1 to hit if I was looking at something like that with tentacles-mouths and oozing eyes.

sorry misstep supposed to be pseudo summons..


and my new pseudo natural template does more than -1 to hit.

just take a look before you make judgements:smallsmile:

[Jeff the Green]

Speedo summons? I'd take a lot more than just a -1 to hit if I was looking at something like that with tentacle-mouths and oozing eyes.

Rule 34, man.

:smalleek:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Another option is to create an entirely separate list of aberrations and Things Man Was Not Meant to Summon. It's a fair amount of work, but not too hard.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I mean, if they replaced all those outsiders/fey/magical beasts/elementals and let you summon a suite of aberrations/oozes instead I'd be all for it.

I did this when I worked up my Madcaller (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307996) PrC, which Jeff and others might be interested in.

(Although please pardon the state of the tables, I haven't gone back to fix them since the forum upgrade.)

.

[137beth]

Yeah. It's actually in the same book. The other pseudonatural template is technically from 3E.
Although it was updated to 3.5 in the 3.5 conversion booklet.

That's just it though - why can't something with the abilities of an Imp or Mephit hail from A Realm That Man Wasn't Meant To Know? Despite all the ineffability and chaos that realm is fluffed with, the stuff that Alienists can pull out of it is ultimately very pedestrian. When you get right down to it, a pseudonatural monkey is not all that different from a celestial one except cosmetically.

I mean, if they replaced all those outsiders/fey/magical beasts/elementals and let you summon a suite of aberrations/oozes instead I'd be all for it. Worse still, we know that all the creatures that Alienist chops off the entry class's summoning list can be pseudonatural - both the template itself and the Zceryll vestige make this abundantly clear. So it ends up being just an arbitrary limitation.
Thrall of Jubilex can summon a couple low-CR oozes. It does seem like the class centered around summoning aberrations and/or oozes should be able to do a better job...summoning aberrations/oozes. It should get things like Slime Wave, and have aberrations added to its SM list. As it is...it is extremely underwhelming.

[Chronos]

OK, yeah, I'll grant that it would be better with aberrations etc. added to the list in place of the demons and devils.

[Seto]

Ever since I read about Mostin the Metagnostic, I can't imagine a bad Alienist :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

Ever since I read about Mostin the Metagnostic, I can't imagine a bad Alienist :smallbiggrin:

Mostin is great. :smallamused:

[IslandDog]

Ever since I read about Mostin the Metagnostic, I can't imagine a bad Alienist :smallbiggrin:

That is exactly why I looked up the alienist in the first place :)
Anyone know where to find Mostin's build?

[Seto]

That is exactly why I looked up the alienist in the first place :)
Anyone know where to find Mostin's build?

There you go. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?5652-Eadric-et-al-%28The-Paladin-and-his-Friends%29) Although these seem to be from the start of the adventure. I don't know if the Epic-level build is out there (although I seem to recall Sepulchrave posting links several times during the story, links I didn't click because I was too busy reading)