Need tips to build our party with special restrictions! Please help.

[wagnerloeher]

Hello all wise-ones of D&D.

I'm Wagner, and I managed to round up a good group of players and we'll start playing soon. We'll play every other day, at least 2 hours a day, so we'll play a lot. Everybody is pretty excited and we plan to make a campaign from 1 to epic and beyond (always dreamed of such thing). However, the DM and us have limited material, and in order to avoid abusive power, we'll play a not-OP campaign. The rule is: We'll use the 3 "basic" books (Player, Dungeon Master and Monster) version 3.5, plus ONE more book of our choice (and players can't use the things of their own books between them, but one can "buy" an item from one and give to another player).

I choose the Complete Arcane, because I want to be a Warlock. I read many forums here (like this one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252715-The-New-Warlock-Handbook-3-5-WIP) and I'm worried my Warlock will be crappy because I can't use other books, but I want to be one!

Raven will be an elf rogue, she is in doubt about what extra book should she choose and why, but her build is the femme-fatalle rogue. So, what do you guys suggest?

My girlfriend Dezi will be the healer, cleric, buffer, and she too is in doubt what what book and why. We have the complete divine, but she didn't quite show interest (maybe you guys could point things on the book we let pass?).

Finally my cousin Caio will be a half-orc warrior, using the Quintessence of the Warrior, and using a orc double axe. We'll use the rules of that book to build our own kingdom someday, and he liked VERY MUCH the Blood Steel/Blood of Steel fight style or something.

Alas, the DM has some questions too. Building a kingdom is expensive, and the focus of the campaign will be the players wishes and dreams (in order: power, adventure, love and battle). But we're afraid we'll be too weak. Ideas about how to narrate, giving more or less challenge, more or less financial rewards (the group would be saving for the kingdom building costs, so we'd be less equipped than we should all the time).

To sum up:

1) How can I make a good Warlock (thinking about making it Lawful Evil) with only the basics and the complete arcane? What build should I follow?

2) What book should I have a nice, flavoured filled stuff build for a femme-fatalle, and how to make an elf rogue superb (She likes the word "superb")?

3) What book should the cleric have, remembering she is the group's sweetheart (and my girlfriend), focusing on healing and buffing and cuteness?

4) How would the DM handle finances and challenges to a not-OP group, that is saving money for the Quintessential Fighter building rules?

Thank you very much for all your insight! We're waiting your answers to begin playing!

[HighWater]

To sum up:

1) How can I make a good Warlock (thinking about making it Lawful Evil) with only the basics and the complete arcane? What build should I follow?

2) What book should I have a nice, flavoured filled stuff build for a femme-fatalle, and how to make an elf rogue superb (She likes the word "superb")?

3) What book should the cleric have, remembering she is the group's sweetheart (and my girlfriend), focusing on healing and buffing and cuteness?

Can't help on Warlock, haven't looked into the class yet. You can try googling for a couple of handbooks, such as this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252715-The-New-Warlock-Handbook-3-5-WIP) and see what useful abilities come from which book. Use that to decide if a decent Warlock with only Core + Complete Arcane is possible.

Maybe your femme-fatale friend would enjoy Beguiler (Players Handbook 2, page 6), rather than Rogue. Let her look it up, fits the femme-fatale fluff pretty well, including Bluff. They get Charm Person and Glibness, as well as ways to hide their casting. Otherwise, perhaps go Rogue-Assassin for elaborate poison use. Have the DM lift the pure-evil requirement for poison and assassin if evil is not her way. It's kindah non-sensical on the use of poison anyway, and there's an (april fools') "lawful" assassin-variant PrC somewhere on the WotC webpage, assassins that restrict themselves to only taking out bad apples is not too inconceivable.

Clerics are pure awesome in core already. Maybe just add Spell Compendium or something if she doesn't care for Complete Divine? Won't be useful if she never bothers to look up new spells though. :smallwink:


4) How would the DM handle finances and challenges to a not-OP group, that is saving money for the Quintessential Fighter building rules?
Story rewards! Fluff rewards! Quest givers, or people you have helped in some way or another can pledge their aid to your cause!
You need people to till your fields, how about some farmers who have been uprooted and whose lives you saved? They can go work on your land!
That local noble you helped out, puts in a good word for you, leading to an early knighthood with a small patch of land. Later rewards can include the deeds to more lands. (Or your Rogue/Beguiler swindles the deeds from someone else :smallwink:)
The stonecutters guilt, whose mines you saved from Troll-infestation pledged to assist in the building of your keep for a steep discount. The Elves who thank you for your extermination of their necromancing neighbours send you some of their best oak...

If the DM is generous, these rewards simply aren't part of your Wealth By Level as you find enough loot to fill your WBL requirements anyways and the rewards themselves aren't instant-money (but instead titles and pledges to build your castle). WBL-shortage will hurt the "lower tiers" more than the cleric and it seems pretty easy to avoid if you guys are just aspiring castle-builders. :smallsmile:

[Morbis Meh]

To sum up:

1) How can I make a good Warlock (thinking about making it Lawful Evil) with only the basics and the complete arcane? What build should I follow?

2) What book should I have a nice, flavoured filled stuff build for a femme-fatalle, and how to make an elf rogue superb (She likes the word "superb")?

3) What book should the cleric have, remembering she is the group's sweetheart (and my girlfriend), focusing on healing and buffing and cuteness?

4) How would the DM handle finances and challenges to a not-OP group, that is saving money for the Quintessential Fighter building rules?

Thank you very much for all your insight! We're waiting your answers to begin playing!

1. Warlocks aren't that bad just be prepared to fall back on UMD at later levels and decide if you want to do ranged or melee (Eldritch glaive is great for damage and debuffing). Look at the many Warlock handbooks and just relax.

2. First of all... rogues aren't overly superb and there are better options for a Femme Fatal character; my recommendation is playing as a swordsage from Tome of Battle, they are great assassin/stealth characters. Another option is the Factotum from Dungeonscape, they are more of a jack of all trades class but fluff is mutable. Rogues are really really hard to build to be effective using only a single splatbook and I really do recommend the Swordsage for an assassinesque character.

3. Complete Champion has some fun items/feats in it but overall a cleric is fine and she may up being the strongest party member overall (tier 1 caster that will be able to out fight a warrior)

4. Very carefully? :smallconfused: Really the DM needs to observe the party's abilities and adjust accordingly there is no quick answer to that one. Basically the DM just needs to ensure that everyone 9them included) is enjoying themselves which can be done by asking for feedback/suggestions as the game progresses.

[ngilop]

I need to point out a couple of things really early for you
1) you say you and your group are non-op-ers. but yet you are asking for OP assistance?
2) most of the replies you are going to get are from OP-ers point of view, they are going to say thing like 'fighters suck, be a warblade, or double weapons are bad have a 2h axe, or rogues are crap be a factotum etc etc. brace yourself to get a lo f replies that have zero to do with actually helping you.


yes the warlock is bad, from an OP standard, but its a pretty solid class, its damage is not too high, but consistent and the invocations are pretty well spread out.. they could have used a few more IMO-for instance separate generic invocation and a essence/blast shape progression would have been perfect.

for your female fatale friend I suggest going rouge 2/beguiler X then do whatever OR go rogue2/wizard5 and into daggerspell mage from complete adventurer its a pretty sweet combo.

I second spell compendium for your cleric, they already have anything they would wand from PhB. if she is into support then maybe get miniature handbook and get war weaver ?


I have zero knowledge of the book your half-orc is after. but power attack.

[Morbis Meh]

I need to point out a couple of things really early for you

for your female fatale friend I suggest going rouge 2/beguiler 5 then maybe daggerspell mage from complete adventurer its a pretty sweet combo.



only allowed one extra book, this requires PHB II and complete Adventurer so this is unplayable for her

[ngilop]

you are right.. had a derp moment there.

time to correct it

[wagnerloeher]

Thank you all for the information.

I truly liked the idea for GM, I'll consider that question answered.
Thing about the rogue is: we need a trap-removal.

If you think straigth, we have no Survival skill (and we'll be out in the wild) and the one char with Perception and Disable Device would be the rogue. This worries me, because our DM is in-love for dungeon crawling, inclusive already drawed a couple of them. She is really in for close combat, and enjoy dual-wielding. So the rogue/wizard/prestige class would be nice, although she's not so into magic like I am.

I'll check the Spell Compedium for Dezi, the more the merrier, I guess, plus would be nice to check a book none of us checked before.

Alas, finally, I am not looking for an OP team, but a team that manages to survive the whole thing. We have no Survival, a single healer for four players, two players with d6 of life, and the Warlock is the only "arcane" one. So tips for making it effective are very welcomed.

[HighWater]

I truly liked the idea for GM, I'll consider that question answered.
Neat. :smallsmile:


Thing about the rogue is: we need a trap-removal.

If you think straigth, we have no Survival skill (and we'll be out in the wild) and the one char with Perception and Disable Device would be the rogue. This worries me, because our DM is in-love for dungeon crawling, inclusive already drawed a couple of them. She is really in for close combat, and enjoy dual-wielding. So the rogue/wizard/prestige class would be nice, although she's not so into magic like I am.
Technically, you only need trapfinding if the "universe" says traps are abundant and well-hidden (basically, if the DM will put in nasty traps even if you don't have trapfinding).
For the so-far suggested options:

Beguiler has Trapfinding, I seriously recommend she looks it up, I hear nothing but good stories about the Beguiler, unlike the much harder to build Rogue.
Any Rogue+other build will also have trapfinding, of course.
Factotum also has Trapfinding.
Only Swordsage doesn't.

Having no Survival-skill can be annoying if you start out at level one and the DM really loves "challenging survival situations", but your cleric can Create Water (plenty) and you can just cook any animal encounter the DM sends at you for food. Make sure to search humanoids for their rations, if they don't have rations, pester the DM with the question "but how did théy survive?" Alternatively, the Cleric takes the Travel Domain (grants survival as a class skill, as well as being a pretty good domain altogether), or just goes Druid.


Alas, finally, I am not looking for an OP team, but a team that manages to survive the whole thing. We have no Survival, a single healer for four players, two players with d6 of life, and the Warlock is the only "arcane" one. So tips for making it effective are very welcomed.

A single healer on 4 players is fine. Alternatively the Rogue/Beguiler/Factotum, or you (the Warlock) puts points in Use Magic Device and gets a wand of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor (if one of you takes Spell Compendium, I still recommend the Cleric do this and use the wand for healing. One of you guys can pick it up to heal her if she goes unconscious), to be a back-up healer (to heal the healer). Alternatively, a couple of potions "in reserve" can bring back an unconscious cleric, who can then do the rest herself. Furthermore, with a Fighter in the team, the Cleric won't be taking nearly as much beatings if she also had to double as the tank.

A team consisting of:
A Cleric with the Travel Domain,
A Beguiler, (Beguiler also uses Arcane spells btw.)
A Warlock,
and a Fighting Man
is a pretty nice team. Basically you have the classic 4-party covered. The Cleric is the Divine Caster, the Beguiler is the "skillmonkey" (including trapfinding) but with really neat "femme-fatale"/trickster magic, the Warlock is the Arcane blaster (and very suitable to UMD too btw) and the Fighting person is some kind of fighter.

If you don't do anything idiotic, you will do fine. This is a pretty neat and synergistic team.

[ngilop]

well then daggerspell shaper would prob be best

its more into stabby stabby than casty casty, plus well at least I think, you can use your wizard spells to or even sorcer really sicne you really only need 5th caster level not 3rd level spells lik I thought. sorc would prob be better now that I thinkabouit plays inot the femme fatale concept better with charisma and sorry got off on a rant

anyways I use spells to supplement my rogue-ish abilities much better to sneak scout, trap find etc etc when all of that is done with low level spells and as a sorc youd have a lot of those


dungeon crawling is where a warlock can shine due to the fatc of pure endurance you can toss eldritch blasts and invocations all day long.

[wagnerloeher]

Sensational HighWater, and all others.

I'll ask Dezi to choose the spell compedium with the travel domain, Raven will be a beguiler (what books is it from again?), I'll be a blaster Warlock and the fighter will just be a mean machine of combat, not much about him.

Thanks a lot! This was really helpful.

[HighWater]

Sensational HighWater, and all others.

I'll ask Dezi to choose the spell compedium with the travel domain, Raven will be a beguiler (what books is it from again?), I'll be a blaster Warlock and the fighter will just be a mean machine of combat, not much about him.

Thanks a lot! This was really helpful.
The Travel Domain is from the normal players handbook, the spell compendium is nice for any caster, so that includes clerics. Beguiler is from Players Handbook 2. We haven't said much on the fighter since you gave the impression that he's composing his own build.

Always glad to help!

[bekeleven]

Note that the imbalance in power levels between casters and non-casters is magnified significantly given these rules.

A Wizard's most powerful options are largely in core, but 90% of the other options are present in spell compendium.

A paladin trying to hit tier 4 needs spells in the spell compendium, items in the MiC, Battle Blessing (and more) out of Complete Champion, and I tend to use the planar handbook and complete warrior as well. A barbarian ubercharger needs complete warrior, magic item compendium, unearthed arcana, and complete champion before level 4.

You've made clerics choose between some game-breaking tricks (Spell Compendium Spells vs Divine Metamagic vs Persist Spell), limited Wizard Prestige classes, druids probably won't have exalted companion and lack the most powerful wild shape forms... but man, fighters, rogues, paladins, rangers, and of course monks will just suck.

[Feint's End]

Finally my cousin Caio will be a half-orc warrior, using the Quintessence of the Warrior, and using a orc double axe. We'll use the rules of that book to build our own kingdom someday, and he liked VERY MUCH the Blood Steel/Blood of Steel fight style

I know you didn't ask for it and I'm not sure if it really is an option for your group but do you know about tome of battle? Also known as the book which gave fighters nice things.

If your cousin is really happy with his build then just let him play his fighter but I strongly suggest pointing him in the direction of ToB (obviously if he knows about it and doesn't care for it then don't force it on him).

A warblade is strictly better than a fighter and also has good support for two weapon fighting (which is the school with some blood flavoured maneuvers as well .. so it could be right what he is looking for).

[HighWater]

Note that the imbalance in power levels between casters and non-casters is magnified significantly given these rules.
In mid- or high-op this is a valid concern. This is low-op though, where the primary concern is staying alive when the healer-cleric goes down and nobody has Survival as a class skill. None of the builds you mentioned would probably be featured if all books were on the table.
Only the Cleric could be a real Tier-problem here, and it sounds like this Cleric is just a healing/buffing cleric so that's all good.

@ wagnerloeher, bekeleven did mention one book I am ashamed of forgetting to mention: if the Cleric is unlikely to look up spells in the Spell Compendium, let her get the Magic Item Compendium (MIC) instead, provided your DM is okay with selling you magic items on a "you order, we deliver"-basis. The MIC is chockfull of flavorful and interesting magic items that can make almost any campaign better and you mentioned other characters could order magic items through her.