Mighty Mice: Level 1 builds that OWN.

[malonkey1]

Alright, I've been wondering. What's the most powerful possible build you could make at level 1 (assuming no obvious cheese, LA +0, and no racial HD)? Any books would be allowed, bonus points for using a normally weak class.

[OldTrees1]

Define no obvious cheese.

[geekintheground]

necropolitan fire elf generalist wizard 1. druid 1. monk 20.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Step 1: Define cheese.
Step 2: Find something cheese-like that doesn't meet this definition of cheese.
Step 3: Break the game.
Step 4: Re-define cheese to include cheesy mechanics in Step 2.
Step 5: Repeat steps 2-4 ad infinitum until all you have left are core human commoners without skills or feats.

[Doc_Maynot]

Step 1: Define cheese.
Step 2: Find something cheese-like that doesn't meet this definition of cheese.
Step 3: Break the game.
Step 4: Re-define cheese to include cheesy mechanics in Step 2.
Step 5: Repeat steps 2-4 ad infinitum until all you have left are core human commoners without skills or feats.

You said nothing about flaws

[Psyren]

Druid 1. You're welcome.


Step 1: Define cheese.
Step 2: Find something cheese-like that doesn't meet this definition of cheese.
Step 3: Break the game.
Step 4: Re-define cheese to include cheesy mechanics in Step 2.
Step 5: Repeat steps 2-4 ad infinitum until all you have left are core human commoners without skills or feats.

Oh hey, it's every optimization thread ever :smallbiggrin:

[Afgncaap5]

For me, this all depends on how you'd define "powerful."

If I can take a flaw (unless that's cheese), a standard human barbarian with power attack and cleave might not be a game breaker by any means, but if the third feat has some tactical benefit (like Least Dragonmark (Mark of Passage [Dimension Leap])) could allow the barbarian to just suddenly be in the middle of a group of minions ripe for cleaving. Or, alternatively, it could allow the barbarian to teleport a few feet away in an emergency.

[Seerow]

necropolitan fire elf generalist wizard 1. druid 1. monk 20.

Not sure if monk 20 is blue because monk 20 is not a level 1 character, or in blue because a druid 1 is better than a monk 20...

[tyckspoon]

As an actual answer..


Warforged Crusader (possibly with Adamantine Body feat) is a pretty tough customer at level 1. Lots of HP with a d12 HD and a racial Con bonus, Living Construct type bonuses, possibly full plate AC if you went for the feat (at a level where the best anybody else can afford is a Breastplate if they scrape together all their cash), and good class features, including decent damage potential from maneuvers.

[Callin]

Human Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian. take one flaw and you got 3 feats. Power Attack, Cleave, and Animal Cohort. Charge and destroy, then set up your pet for flanks and more charging!

Human Generic Warrior 1 with a Flaw gets 4 feats. Sneak Attack for 2d6, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Hand Maneuver, Shadow Hand Stance, Shadowblade

[Seppo87]

:smallconfused:

assuming no flaws, no traits...

Strongheart Halfling Warblade.

stats (PB32)

STR 12 (14-2)
DEX 20 (18+2)
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 8

Feats: Finesse, Exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain
Stance: Punishing Stance
Maneuvers: Steel Wind, Sudden Leap, Sapphire Nightmare Blade

Equipment:
Weapon
Studded Leather Armor

HP: 15
AC: 19 (10+5dex+3armor+1size) note: 17 when in punishing stance
To Hit: +7 (5+1BaB+1size)
Damage: 1d6+1 (+1d6 from stance, maybe +1d6 from strike)

init: +5

Can use 5ft step and sudden leap to move in a favorable position for his single AoO
Can use Steel Wind to attack 2 enemies at once
Can fight on the defensive when appropriate (it is appropriate if doing so would result in enemies only hitting with a 20 while you hit with 18 or less)

[Kennisiou]

Wizard grey elf generalist with fairy mysteries initiate feat is probably the best answer here. Possibly add a LA +0 template or two that improves int, since you're almost totally SAD on int now (only really caring about con for fort saves and dex for initiative, AC, touch attacks, and reflex saves). Not being a template stacker myself, I don't actually know of any off the top of my head that improve int.

Human cleric with undeath and planning domains, then persistent spell and DMM: persist for feats. Take two flaws, both for extra turning. You can now persist a whole lot of l1 and l0 spells. You can also take ocular spell and DMM: ocular spell as the flaw bonus feats if you'd like, since it'll allow you to persist a few additional spells or persist some of them on your allies, but really that's not as important. May not seem like much but you can still have Talons, Bless, Divine Favor, and Entropic Shield persisted. Dependant on charisma score. Right now with 10 cha you can have 2 spells persisted. With 22 cha you can have 3. 22 Cha on level 1 is achievable via template stacking.

[Jeff the Green]

Leaving aside definitional issues, I believe there are a few level 1 builds that are really hard to kill. Dragonborn dwarf Crusader with Stone Power, an essentia granting feat, and Shape Soulmeld (astral vambraces) has DR 4/magic (5/adamantine in a pinch), has a strike and stance to heal him, and can negate 2 damage a round by delaying it and using Stone Power to get temporary HP.

Anything benefits enormously from Wild Cohort at low levels. A druid with two riding dogs is pretty unstoppable.

Lesser psionic duergar Paychic Warrior with Duergar Expansion, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes can trip pretty darn well for first level (though he is a bit MAD).

Though not powerful himself, a marshal can give his allies up to +5 on their initiative and Dex-based skills or +5 damage when flanking. Draconic Aura (vigor), Imperious Command, and... Nymph's Kiss, maybe?... round him out as general utility and face.

[geekintheground]

Not sure if monk 20 is blue because monk 20 is not a level 1 character, or in blue because a druid 1 is better than a monk 20...

a bit of both really.

[Doc_Maynot]

Chicko, God of the Swarm

Venerable Kobold Commoner Loredrake

Flaw: Chicken Infested
Feats: Soul of the North, Beauty's Bounty, Dragonwrought (I don't know, platinum heritage maybe?)

As Chicko, God of the Swarm, you have 2 levels of sorc casting at level one, which you will use to mow down all the chickens you can conjure out of your spell component pouch as a free action. Disregard melee builds, acquire levels.

[dextercorvia]

Human Generic Warrior 1 with a Flaw gets 4 feats. Sneak Attack for 2d6, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Hand Maneuver, Shadow Hand Stance, Shadowblade

You don't actually get the maneuvers at level 1, you realize? Your IL is too low.

This guy (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=364041) is built only using OGL material on D20srd, and totally wrecked a level 3 unoptimized party of 4 characters. Twice.

[zingbobco000]

Be a desert kobold
Take dragonwrought feat
Take loredrake archetype
Have the dragon psychosis spellhoarding as well as riddled.

Assuming 32 pt. buy
Str 4
Dex 18
Con 16
Wis 5
Int 27
Cha 11

You cast as a level 3 wizard and gain a ton of bonus spells with your 27 int.

[geekintheground]

Be a desert kobold
Take dragonwrought feat
Take loredrake archetype
Have the dragon psychosis spellhoarding as well as riddled.

Assuming 32 pt. buy
Str 4
Dex 18
Con 16
Wis 5
Int 27
Cha 11

You cast as a level 3 wizard and gain a ton of bonus spells with your 27 int.

how are you casting as a wizard? i thought loredrake only increased sorcerer casting?:smallconfused:

[Ruethgar]

The Spellhoarding psychosis requires you be a true dragon, which you are not. You can still take loredrake though and then just boost Cha instead of Int(also getting Magic Blooded for -2 Wis +2 Cha).

Depending on your definition of level(most often character level), then Warforged:Construct 1/Major Bloodline 3/Crusader 1 wins. Take your normal racial HD initially, then level up three times with Major Bloodline and a fourth by taking Crusader to replace the Construct HD. Vuala, character level 1 with an initiator level of 5 and maneuvers to match.

[Doc_Maynot]

how are you casting as a wizard? i thought loredrake only increased sorcerer casting?:smallconfused:

That's Spellhoarding, don't see why riddled is needed too, it makes sorc casting keyed off of int.

[Darrin]

Cleric 1, apocalypse martini (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?292736-low-level-OP-challenge&p=15634823&viewfull=1#post15634823). Not so much a build as abusing the sacrifice rules from BoVD.

[geekintheground]

That's Spellhoarding, don't see why riddled is needed too, it makes sorc casting keyed off of int.

thats cool, whats the source on those?

[Larkas]

The Spellhoarding psychosis requires you be a true dragon, which you are not. You can still take loredrake though and then just boost Cha instead of Int(also getting Magic Blooded for -2 Wis +2 Cha).

I thought Loredrake also required being a true dragon? Anyways, please, don't open this can of worms here.

[The Oni]

This one's pretty fun for PF - the Deathcopter

Oni-Spawn Tiefling, L1 vanilla Barbarian
take the tiefling trait with oversized arms to wield large weapons, Fiendish Sprinter trait, and Scaled Skin trait for +1 to AC

STR 20 (+5)
DEX 10 (0)
CON 16 (+3)
INT 10 (0)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 8 (-1)

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Flying Blade)

Murder any enemies that come within range with your +8 to AoEs and your reach, or rage and charge to deal 3d6+9 damage with your large-sized flying blade and splatter anything level-appropriate all over the walls.

[Harrow]

Azurin Crusader. Take Crusader's Strike and the Martial Spirit stance, which you should be in pretty much all the time.

Feats : Bind Vestige (Aym), Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces)

Start out with Splint Mail and a Heavy Shield at level 1, to be upgraded to Full Plate at the earliest convenience.

Aym gives you Dwarven Step, so you get to keep full movement in heavy armor. Astral Vambraces with your 1 racial point of essentia from Azurin in it (replaces human bonus skill points, which you really don't need) to get DR 4/magic.

Between heavy armor and a shield, you'll be rather hard to hit. When you are hit, enemies will have a hard time hurting you through your damage reduction, which will remain relevant for several levels. And they'd better hope they do hit through your damage reduction, because they're taking d6 retributive damage from Aym every time they hit you, meaning they very well may hurt themselves faster than they hurt you. Then, if they do manage to hurt you before killing themselves against you, Aym gives you a touch attack. Combine Crusader's Strike with Martial Spirit and you'll probably be able to heal yourself to full every round. But if the enemy doesn't do something about you, you spend every round hitting them with touch attacks and healing your teammates.

This build is covered in things that are normally bad choices (using a shield, fire damage, DR /magic, not being a caster) but at level 1 they have basically none of the drawbacks normally associated with them.



If you lighten the cheese restriction : Human Cleric with 1 flaw. Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic (Heighten Spell), then any reserve feat. Really, almost any one. My favorite for this trick is the Summon Elemental one. Can be done without flaws by level 3, and the trick is still game-breaking for many levels to come.

[dextercorvia]

Azurin Crusader. Take Crusader's Strike and the Martial Spirit stance, which you should be in pretty much all the time.

Feats : Bind Vestige (Aym), Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces)

Start out with Splint Mail and a Heavy Shield at level 1, to be upgraded to Full Plate at the earliest convenience.

Aym gives you Dwarven Step, so you get to keep full movement in heavy armor. Astral Vambraces with your 1 racial point of essentia from Azurin in it (replaces human bonus skill points, which you really don't need) to get DR 4/magic.

Between heavy armor and a shield, you'll be rather hard to hit. When you are hit, enemies will have a hard time hurting you through your damage reduction, which will remain relevant for several levels. And they'd better hope they do hit through your damage reduction, because they're taking d6 retributive damage from Aym every time they hit you, meaning they very well may hurt themselves faster than they hurt you. Then, if they do manage to hurt you before killing themselves against you, Aym gives you a touch attack. Combine Crusader's Strike with Martial Spirit and you'll probably be able to heal yourself to full every round. But if the enemy doesn't do something about you, you spend every round hitting them with touch attacks and healing your teammates.

This build is covered in things that are normally bad choices (using a shield, fire damage, DR /magic, not being a caster) but at level 1 they have basically none of the drawbacks normally associated with them.


This doesn't work. You don't get Dwarven Step or Halo of Fire when you use the Bind Vestige Feat on Aym.

[Gildedragon]

Binder with Improved Binding, Nymph's Kiss if human

[Harrow]

This doesn't work. You don't get Dwarven Step or Halo of Fire when you use the Bind Vestige Feat on Aym.

This is what I get for trying to use Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum in the same build :smallyuk:

[Doc_Maynot]

thats cool, whats the source on those?

Dragon Magazine #313

[Incanur]

Depending on the adventure, a forest gnome beguiler 1 strikes me as a strong choice. If it not immune to mind-affecting, sneak up and hit it with color spray. If it is, trick it with silent image or just sneak around it.

A focused specialist conjurer 1 makes a great team player but isn't great a killing stuff solo.

Any level-1 character who can cast power word: pain is good at murdering low-level PCs.

[TiaC]

I always like the very fat wizard who uses Benign Transposition and a flying familiar to fall on people for 20d6 damage. Sure, he takes 1d6, but that shouldn't really matter.

[Incanur]

A human evoker with the energy affinity ACF and the feats Bloodline of Fire and Elemental Spellcasting has caster level 5 for fire spells at level 1. It's not that great, but a focused specialist can throw out 4-5 kelgore's fire bolts at 5d6 each per day.

[chaos_redefined]

It's more the durability of the build, but an Incarnate can shoot out 2d6 damage every round without any long term sacrifice with dissolving spittle (1 essentia invested).

[Naanomi]

Dragonborn (Arctic, to cheese Tolerance) Mongrolman; Dragonfire Adept, Entangling Exhalation; wear the heaviest armor you can afford/scrounge... win level 1!

[malonkey1]

These are some pretty interesting builds all. It's given me a few ideas for when I play an E1 game with my friends. It's like E6, but level 1 is all you get.

[Fable Wright]

Build: Human Duskblade 1.
Feats: Fascinating Illumination, Deceptive Illumination.
Spells known: Blade of Blood, Color Spray.

It has amazing melee potential (5d6+3 damage on a hit), the best Save or Die at level 1 (Color Spray), Deceptive Illumination for line of sight blocking and out of combat utility, and Fascinating Illumination to secure the surprise round. Also can use armor. Surpasses other level 1 spellcasters with sheer number of spells per day. (You have 5+int modifier uses of Silent Image/Fascinating Illumination each day, in addition to your regular 1st level spell slots.)

[Doc_Maynot]

Build: Human Duskblade 1.
Feats: Fascinating Illumination, Deceptive Illumination.
Spells known: Blade of Blood, Color Spray.

It has amazing melee potential (5d6+3 damage on a hit), the best Save or Die at level 1 (Color Spray), Deceptive Illumination for line of sight blocking and out of combat utility, and Fascinating Illumination to secure the surprise round. Also can use armor. Surpasses other level 1 spellcasters with sheer number of spells per day. (You have 5+int modifier uses of Silent Image/Fascinating Illumination each day, in addition to your regular 1st level spell slots.)

How do you get dancing lights as an SLA, which is a prereq to both of those feats?

[TiaC]

How do you get dancing lights as an SLA, which is a prereq to both of those feats?

Arcane Attunement, the 1st level Duskblade ability gives it to you.

[geekintheground]

How do you get dancing lights as an SLA, which is a prereq to both of those feats?

arcane attunement, a class feature of duskblade

edit: swordsage'd

[Diovid]

I'd go for a diplomacer, though I'd be torn between a Desert Half-Elf Marshal, a Desert Half-Elf Bard and a Changeling Rogue.

A Desert Half-Elf Marshal would be able to hit a diplomacy check of 2 * cha + 2 (racial) + 3 (skill focus) + 4 (ranks) + d20 which should be enough to convince most creatures to at least not attack you. Besides, you'd also be pretty good at other social skills (including the infamous Handle Animal). Get the Sociable Personality feat (Races of Destiny) so you can reroll diplomacy checks.

The Desert Half-Elf Bard has access to the Half-Elf Bard substitution level (Races of Destiny) which is great for diplomancers while the Changeling Rogue substitution level (Races of Eberron) not only gains 10+int skill points to spent on face skills but he also gains some useful face abilities (such as always being able to take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks).

[HammeredWharf]

I have to agree with the Duskblade build. They rock at low levels even more than Wizards do due to their good chassis and having Color Spray.

Another good (but boring) option is the traditional Dragonborn Water Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1 with Pounce. You get two attacks, lots of HP, hit like a truck and can get really high saves with Stalwart Determination. With two flaws, you could take Battle Jump to make your damage skyrocket, but Battle Jump makes me feel bad, so I'd rather take Extra Rage or something like that.

[Troacctid]

It's more the durability of the build, but an Incarnate can shoot out 2d6 damage every round without any long term sacrifice with dissolving spittle (1 essentia invested).
Take Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. Now it's 3d6 acid damage at will as a ranged touch attack. Or, if you'd rather get up close and personal, swap to Lightning Gauntlets and make it 3d6 electricity damage at will as a melee touch attack; you're proficient with medium armor and shields and you can shape Astral Vambraces for DR 2/magic (or double that if you toss in an essentia feat), so it's not like you're afraid of melee.

Alternately, play an Azurin Druid or Wizard and take Shape Soulmeld + Share Soulmeld. Now you and your animal companion/familiar both have at-will 2d6 damage touch attacks.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I thought Loredrake also required being a true dragon? Anyways, please, don't open this can of worms here.

It does not, although the passage implies you need true dragon last time I read it I saw nothing explicitly requiring true dragon.

[Snowbluff]

(Human) Cleric 1
Heighten Spell, Divine MM Heighten Spell, Summon Elemental.

Oh, hi 8 HD elemental!

Azurin (Psionic Class) 1
Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion + Psionic Meditation.

Every turn you can make 2 PP. The bonus doesn't stack with itself (same source), so you had better use it!

I'd take the above DB build, but I'd add the Lightning Guantlets for some extra d6 for a touch attack.

[Segev]

On a somewhat silly note:

Commoner 1, Handle Animal, all your starting gp invested in goats (which use stats as sheep but are cheaper). Train them for combat, and take a Longspear as your one Simple weapon proficiency. Use your herd of goats to Aid Another in combat, keeping one between you and your foe at all times while you attack over its head with your longspear. You have +2 per goat that can hit a DC 10 on its attack roll, and can choose whether that's to hit or to your AC against the foe in question. Oh, and of course, you have flanking bonuses, and can hand them out liberally to your allies, as well.


(Yes, a druid can do this better, but doesn't have proficiency with a reach weapon. An Expert could also do it better, being proficient with all simple weapons and having better skill selection. Even a Fighter can do this and have an extra feat to boot, though he'd be dropping all his skill points on Handle Animal unless he had a decent Int (in which case I'd invest in Ride; rely on your goats for spotting things, and plan to pick up a mount when you can afford one).

[deuxhero]

Do NPC classes even have a listed starting gold?

[Incanur]

I have to agree with the Duskblade build. They rock at low levels even more than Wizards do due to their good chassis and having Color Spray.

Yes and no. The old focused-specialist conjurer 1 with abrupt jaunt and Cloudy Conjuration still have its advantages. Wizards can also do tricky things at level 1 with Metamagic School Focus. The duskblade probably makes a better solo character, though, because of versatility. A forest-gnome beguiler with Spell Focus (illusion) a higher color spray DC and better skills, but no melee ability to speak of. It would depend on the campaign. Blade of blood is awfully dangerous, though.


Another good (but boring) option is the traditional Dragonborn Water Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1 with Pounce. You get two attacks, lots of HP, hit like a truck and can get really high saves with Stalwart Determination. With two flaws, you could take Battle Jump to make your damage skyrocket, but Battle Jump makes me feel bad, so I'd rather take Extra Rage or something like that.

It's Steadfast Determination, and you can only get it with flaws at a level 1 on this character. I think rather just take Extra Rage assuming no flaws.

Another classic level-1 build is the Int-focused warmage with 12 CHA. But it's really not that great because of the limited range, per-day limits, and touch attacks required.

[HammeredWharf]

It's Steadfast Determination, and you can only get it with flaws at a level 1 on this character. I think rather just take Extra Rage assuming no flaws.

Oh, yes, I got the name wrong. Flaws are assumed to be ok, because I wouldn't call them "obvious cheese".

[Segev]

Do NPC classes even have a listed starting gold?
Actually, the irony is that they get more at 1st level than do PCs. They aren't listed with their classes, but rather as "NPC wealth by level," which gives NPC classes 900 gp at level 1.

Commoners are richer than adventurers, starting out. Who knew? (No wonder orcs and goblins raid commoner households for the loot adventurers are always collecting from them.)

[ace rooster]

Actually, the irony is that they get more at 1st level than do PCs. They aren't listed with their classes, but rather as "NPC wealth by level," which gives NPC classes 900 gp at level 1.

Commoners are richer than adventurers, starting out. Who knew? (No wonder orcs and goblins raid commoner households for the loot adventurers are always collecting from them.)

Actually they do have starting wealth listed, commoners get 5d4 gp starting, so the build works much better with aristocrat (goat baron?) 6D8*10gp, averaging 270gp to start. Incidently, this means that at level 1, an aristocrat could be a better fighter than the fighter, as he can afford better gear and has a better will save. With a flaw you can get spirited charge, and you can afford a light warhorse, as well as other gear. Having diplomacy as a class skill and 4 skill points is almost worth the +1 to hit you give up on it's own.

Edit: almost forgot the +1 to hit you get back from being mounted. :smallsmile:

[zingbobco000]

thats cool, whats the source on those?

Dragon 313


I thought Loredrake also required being a true dragon? Anyways, please, don't open this can of worms here.

Wording is wierd I read it as you are a true dragon.


It does not, although the passage implies you need true dragon last time I read it I saw nothing explicitly requiring true dragon.

The wording is wierd for both dragonwrought and the archetype.

[malonkey1]

Oh, yes, I got the name wrong. Flaws are assumed to be ok, because I wouldn't call them "obvious cheese".

Yeah, flaws and traits are totes fine. And I say "obvious cheese" as in "if it feels cheesy, don't do it." Cheese is sometimes subjective, but I'd say basically as long as you don't hear an audible "crack" from the rules when you use it's fine. But Pun-Pun is obviously right out.

[Andezzar]

If you lighten the cheese restriction : Human Cleric with 1 flaw. Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic (Heighten Spell), then any reserve feat. Really, almost any one. My favorite for this trick is the Summon Elemental one. Can be done without flaws by level 3, and the trick is still game-breaking for many levels to come.


(Human) Cleric 1
Heighten Spell, Divine MM Heighten Spell, Summon Elemental.
It does not work. You can only summon the elemental as long as you have a 4th level summoning spell available to cast. Before applying DMM:Heighten to Summon Monster I, you do not have such a spell available. When you do apply the metamagic, the spell is cast and no longer available.

[Snowbluff]

Available to cast -> "I can do it, bro."

It's simple.
"Is this option available to me?"
"Yes."
"Then one might say it's available to be cast."

It's a false level of pedantry. An actual argument would refer to the need of a certain spell slot, as per the text.

[HammeredWharf]

The DMM Heighten trick is questionable, but I think we can all agree being able to cast 8:th level spells as a lvl 1 character is more than a bit cheesy, so it doesn't count based on that.

[Incanur]

Flaws aren't exactly cheese, but having access to flaws is better than not having access. They're not remotely balanced like they're intended to be.

With flaws and traits, the evoker build I mentioned could take Spellgifted instead of Elemental Spellcasting plus have two flaws for a total of three feats up in the air. You use two feats - Fiery Spell and Metamagic School Focus - to add +5 damage to kelgore's fire bolt 3/day, for a total of 5d6+5 (Ref half). Average 22.5 damage on failed save, 11 on success. 150ft range. You could use the other feat for a +1 DC boost, or Piercing Evocation if you're worried about fire resistance/immunity. And you get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. Seems pretty good for dueling, anyway. 10x the range of color spray, and it's basically a Ref save or die at level 1. It's often a save-and-die-anyway spell. Four such evokers would only be a CR-4 encounter.

Precocious Apprentice for ray of stupidity plus Arcane Mastery might be good in a campaign with lots of 2-Int foes. Kill a dire tiger at level 1!

[Zombulian]

Pretty sure others have talked about this one already.
Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian
Longtooth Shifter
Lvl 1 feat: Two weapon fighting
Flaw: Improved Unarmed Strike
Flaw: Longtooth Elite
On a charge while raging you make 5 attacks. One attack with each weapon in hand, another because of whirling frenzy, an unarmed strike, and a bite that does constitution damage.

[Zubrowka74]

... Lesser psionic duergar Paychic Warrior with ...

Please tell me more about this "Paychic" Warrior you speak of. Please do.

[Aegis013]

Flaws aren't exactly cheese, but having access to flaws is better than not having access. They're not remotely balanced like they're intended to be.

Honestly I took it as the opposite. Based on the sidebar at the bottom of page 91 in Unearthed Arcana which explicitly says "...players always choose flaws that have the least impact on their characters, while taking feats that have the most." I always thought they were intended to be an optional rule that increased character power.

[Incanur]

For a practical high-op 1st-level 4-PC party under this thread's guidelines, I might go for the following:

Whisper gnome druid 1 with earth elemental companion (assuming replacement as animal companion) and Greenbound Summoning feat (this may violate no-cheese rule)

Whisper gnome beguiler with Greater Spell Focus (illusion) and maybe Shadow Weave Magic for color spray nonsense

Water orc whirling frenzy pouncing barbarian with Extra Rage and so on

Whisper gnome focused specialist conjurer with Cloudy Conjuration and Greater Spell Focus (conjuration)

It's hard to beat whisper gnomes at level 1 assuming stealth and perception skills matter. You really want the whole party to have darkvision and some ability to sneak. The earth elemental companion makes an exceptional scout. This party might actually be better off replacing the barbarian with another druid, but the barbarian does its thing extremely well and makes killing high-CR foes a really possibility.

[HammeredWharf]

A slightly questionable, but usually ok lvl 1 trick is being a beguiler. The Picatchu, not the class. Having True Seeing on at all times can be very useful, especially because getting other modes of vision is tricky when your level is low.

[Andezzar]

Pretty sure others have talked about this one already.
Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian
Longtooth Shifter
Lvl 1 feat: Two weapon fighting
Flaw: Improved Unarmed Strike
Flaw: Longtooth Elite
On a charge while raging you make 5 attacks. One attack with each weapon in hand, another because of whirling frenzy, an unarmed strike, and a bite that does constitution damage.While you can use the Unarmed Strike as an Off-hand attack, you cannot use an UAS in addition to a weapon in each hand. There is no three weapon fighting unless you have more than 2 arms.

[Zombulian]

While you can use the Unarmed Strike as an Off-hand attack, you cannot use an UAS in addition to a weapon in each hand. There is no three weapon fighting unless you have more than 2 arms.

Mm. I wasn't sure it'd work or not as a secondary attack like other natural weapons at -5.

[Snowbluff]

A slightly questionable, but usually ok lvl 1 trick is being a beguiler. The Picatchu, not the class. Having True Seeing on at all times can be very useful, especially because getting other modes of vision is tricky when your level is low.

It's spelled Pikachu.

[Chronos]

Level 1 characters who don't suck:

A druid with a canine animal companion. Race, feat(s), ability scores, and spells prepared don't even matter. You have a replaceable wolf, and that's enough.

A dragonfire adept with high Con and preferably Entangling Exhalation. Invocation choice doesn't matter much, but good options include Endure Exposure if you're in a party, or Sense Magic if you're solo. You can do area-effect damage at will, and impose a status condition that will probably enable you to stay out of melee range to survive to do it again.

A warlock with the Summon Swarm invocation. Again, you have area-effect damage, and with a nicely shapable area, plus a chance at a couple of debuffs, at will.

Incarnate, with Dissolving Spittle, Improved Soulmeld Capacity, and anything that gives you another point of essentia (a race, bonus feat, or both). Second soulmeld doesn't matter. You've got an at-will ranged touch attack that does enough damage to one-shot pretty much anything a level 1 character could encounter.

Possibly a crusader, with some combination of Martial Spirit, Crusader's Strike, and Stone Power. Any other melee character at level 1 just has too high a chance of being one-shot by a lucky crit.

[Incanur]

A 3d6 at-will 30ft touch attack at level 1 is pretty sweet, but I think folks are overrating it. The attack bonus is only likely to be +3 or +4 - if that - so it will miss around a quarter of the time or more. 30ft is really close, an 1st-level incarnate doesn't have a whole lot of other tricks. Also, 3d6 means 10.5 on average, and some low-level foes may have more hp. The at-will part is awesome in theory but only becomes a real advantage if you're seriously grinding.

If you are running some level-1 endurance gauntlet, crusader seems like the best option. An I-touch-myself dread necromancer might also be an option. What other classes can heal themselves without daily limits?

[Story]

Any other melee character at level 1 just has too high a chance of being one-shot by a lucky crit.

Apart from special cases like using feats to get regeneration or DR.

[Zombulian]

Alright alternate to what I said before. Same barbarian setup.
Warforged this time
1: Toughness
Flaw: Troll Blooded
Flaw: Jaws of Death
4 attacks this time on a charge, 2 with a 2 hander and 1 slam and 1 bite. Also has Regeneration 1 (acid, fire).

[Incanur]

I'm pretty sure Troll Blooded isn't a regional feat for warforged. They don't even exist in Greyhawk. So you're ignoring the rules to use a cheesy feat in combination with a race that negates the feat's drawback. That's double cheese. :smalltongue:

Regeneration is so good though that Troll Blooded seems strong for a crusader build. Just stay out of the sun!

As an aside, Faerie Mysteries Initiate is from the same Dragon issue.

[Zombulian]

I'm pretty sure Troll Blooded isn't a regional feat for warforged. They don't even exist in Greyhawk. So you're ignoring the rules to use a cheesy feat in combination with a race that negates the feat's drawback. That's double cheese. :smalltongue:

Regeneration is so good though that Troll Blooded seems strong for a crusader build. Just stay out of the sun!

As an aside, Faerie Mysteries Initiate is from the same Dragon issue.

Yeaaah haha. See a lot of builds with Troll Blooded Warforged. Easy fix would be to take TWF and Imp UA instead of Toughness and Troll Blooded. Now it's back to 5 attacks on a charge and much more legitimate. Plus bonus points for using a two hander and dual wielding with your pelvic thrusts of destruction.

[Friv]

I believe one of the silliest is to play a human sorcerer with the following three things:

Cantrip: Sonic Snap [1 auto damage and save vs. deafness]
Feat: Fell Drain [If target takes damage, they lose a level. +2 Spell Level]
Feat: Magical Lineage (Sonic Snap) [Metamagic affecting this spell is one level lower]

Now you have a level 1 spell that reduces enemies' levels by 1 with no resistance, instantly killing anything that's equal to you.

[Incanur]

Fell Drain is 3.5 and Magical Lineage is PF, so that would only work in a 3.PF game.

Easy Metamagic works in 3.5 game with Dragon material allowed. Metamagic School Focus lets you do it 3/day. Versatile Spellcaster could also work.

[Jeff the Green]

A slightly questionable, but usually ok lvl 1 trick is being a beguiler. The Picatchu, not the class. Having True Seeing on at all times can be very useful, especially because getting other modes of vision is tricky when your level is low.

Doesnt work. Beguilers have LA +0 (Cohort), and so aren't available as PCs, and there's no way to get it as a cohort or familiar at level 1.

[Zombulian]

Doesnt work. Beguilers have LA +0 (Cohort), and so aren't available as PCs, and there's no way to get it as a cohort or familiar at level 1.

Hush now. Let us believe.

[Magesmiley]

As far as sucking up the damage at low levels:

Dwarf, put an 18 in con +2 for racial mod = 20
Take 2 flaws.
Toughness (prereq, yeah sucks but that's life) + Roll With It x2 (Savage Species)
Take the dwarf fighter substitution from RoS or a barbarian for the d12.

20 hp with DR 4/-

Not indestructible, but can do a pretty good immitation against most stuff you'll run into for a few levels.

[zingbobco000]

As far as sucking up the damage at low levels:

Dwarf, put an 18 in con +2 for racial mod = 20
Take 2 flaws.
Toughness (prereq, yeah sucks but that's life) + Roll With It x2 (Savage Species)
Take the dwarf fighter substitution from RoS or a barbarian for the d12.

20 hp with DR 4/-

Not indestructible, but can do a pretty good immitation against most stuff you'll run into for a few levels.

As what I had previously stated, with my loredrake stuff, add spell hoarding dragon psychosis to change those four levels of SOR to a WIZ. So, you should be able to cast some great defensive casts, like IDK... Blur? + Mage Armor + Shield (they stack) + Mirror Image + Cat's Grace + + False Life + 18 DEX score (as before) is a 24 AC, 20% miss chance, 5 - 15 extra HP (possibly more than your barbarian), and 2 - 5 chance of hitting the wrong target.

So in total you have a roll of 19+ to hit this wizard (for the average CR monster), around 17 HP (equal to your barbarian), and a large miss chance.

[OldTrees1]

Isn't misusing templates (applying Spellhording, etc to a Kobold) obvious cheese?

[Story]

As far as sucking up the damage at low levels:

Dwarf, put an 18 in con +2 for racial mod = 20
Take 2 flaws.
Toughness (prereq, yeah sucks but that's life) + Roll With It x2 (Savage Species)
Take the dwarf fighter substitution from RoS or a barbarian for the d12.

20 hp with DR 4/-

Not indestructible, but can do a pretty good immitation against most stuff you'll run into for a few levels.

If you don't mind having DR/magic instead, Astral Vambraces are much more effective. You can also get resistance 5-10 in each element that way too if you care.

[ddude987]

Wording is wierd I read it as you are a true dragon.

The wording is wierd for both dragonwrought and the archetype.

Safe to say, assuming you are a true dragon via dragonwrought, and dragonwrought is not considered cheese, the spellhording loredrake will certainly be one of the most powerful level 1 builds, and probably won't lose to much.

That said, if you're venerable and still level 1 you might've did something wrong with your life.

[zingbobco000]

Safe to say, assuming you are a true dragon via dragonwrought, and dragonwrought is not considered cheese, the spellhording loredrake will certainly be one of the most powerful level 1 builds, and probably won't lose to much.

That said, if you're venerable and still level 1 you might've did something wrong with your life.

He was a beggar who never learned anything until discovering a hidden time of kobold and dragon knowldege. He then became an almighty wizard. (He was very bad at begging so he didn't gain any exp)

[ddude987]

He was a beggar who never learned anything until discovering a hidden time of kobold and dragon knowldege. He then became an almighty wizard. (He was very bad at begging so he didn't gain any exp)

That made me laugh. Thanks for that :smallbiggrin:

[zingbobco000]

That made me laugh. Thanks for that :smallbiggrin:

Your welcome.

[zingbobco000]

Isn't misusing templates (applying Spellhording, etc to a Kobold) obvious cheese?

But it's not clear to everyone.

[malonkey1]

The creativity you people have astounds me. To be honest, I'm surprised I haven't seen Precocious Apprentice mentioned.

[Incanur]

Is there any RAW support anywhere for the idea that you can choose to start the game at the age of your choice? Nothing in the Dragonwrought feat says you can; it doesn't even say anything about aging. PHB starting ages suggest you can't just decide to be venerable. Nor is there anything in the Loredrake description to indicate it's available for PCs at all, much less for kobolds. (Note that Loredrake isn't actually a template.) I call cheese - fragrant, aged cheese, even!

[Story]

I remember having a character who started level 1 as Venerable in the backstory (in the actual game, he started at level 3 as a Necropolitan). I came up with an elaborate backstory to justify it, but noone ever asked.

[zingbobco000]

Is there any RAW support anywhere for the idea that you can choose to start the game at the age of your choice? Nothing in the Dragonwrought feat says you can; it doesn't even say anything about aging. PHB starting ages suggest you can't just decide to be venerable. Nor is there anything in the Loredrake description to indicate it's available for PCs at all, much less for kobolds. (Note that Loredrake isn't actually a template.) I call cheese - fragrant, aged cheese, even!

The thing is: You can choose or randomly generate your character’s age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character’s race and class (see Table: Random Starting Ages). Your character’s minimum starting age is the adulthood age of his or her race plus the number of dice indicated in the entry corresponding to the character’s race and class on Table: Random Starting Ages.

States you can choose, emphasis mine.

[Incanur]

States you can choose, emphasis mine.

You're right. So I can't argue with venerable dragonwrought kobolds. But I still think Loredrake is cheese. It's not a option for PCs and obviously intended for dragons that have racial hit dice.

[Zombulian]

You're right. So I can't argue with venerable dragonwrought kobolds. But I still think Loredrake is cheese. It's not a option for PCs and obviously intended for dragons that have racial hit dice.

Generally the GitP community agrees that Kobolds are not true dragons, and threads arguing the point were at one point about as common as monkday threads.

[zingbobco000]

You're right. So I can't argue with venerable dragonwrought kobolds. But I still think Loredrake is cheese. It's not a option for PCs and obviously intended for dragons that have racial hit dice.

Intent and what actually happens are two different things. But anyway, it might be cheese but it's not obvious cheese, as you said yourself: it's not intended, so how can it be obvious?


Generally the GitP community agrees that Kobolds are not true dragons, and threads arguing the point were at one point about as common as monkday threads.

I think the arguing is over and we're just debating about to cheese or not to cheese.

[Zombulian]

Intent and what actually happens are two different things. But anyway, it might be cheese but it's not obvious cheese, as you said yourself: it's not intended, so how can it be obvious?



I think the arguing is over and we're just debating about to cheese or not to cheese.

But cheese is ignoring logic and working with game mechanics instead. The difference here is that game mechanics don't really allow for Kobolds to take sovereign archetypes. So it's not cheese because it doesn't even work.

[dextercorvia]

Generally the GitP community agrees that Kobolds are not true dragons,

Is this really true? (That the community agrees) The consensus seemed to lean the other way before my leave of absence.

[Zombulian]

Is this really true? (That the community agrees) The consensus seemed to lean the other way before my leave of absence.

Yep. When I first joined (around 2008 on a different account) the general hype was around Kobolds counting as true dragons, but by now there have been far more cohesive arguments that they aren't.

[zingbobco000]

But cheese is ignoring logic and working with game mechanics instead. The difference here is that game mechanics don't really allow for Kobolds to take sovereign archetypes. So it's not cheese because it doesn't even work.

Ok, they might or might not allow it, but either way it is still a good build that might work depending on the DM.

[malonkey1]

Yep. While you get the Dragon type from Dragonwrought, it doesn't specifically state that you become a "true dragon". Though, to be fair, I can't rightly recall where "true dragon" is defined. If I recall, it's any dragon with 12 age categories, but I can't think of a source to back it up.

[Doc_Maynot]

Yep. While you get the Dragon type from Dragonwrought, it doesn't specifically state that you become a "true dragon". Though, to be fair, I can't rightly recall where "true dragon" is defined. If I recall, it's any dragon with 12 age categories, but I can't think of a source to back it up.

Draconomicon states the requirements, I'd post them, but I'd need to make a LOT of quotes rather than the passage most use when talking about DWKs.

The talk about organs all true dragons have, the fact that they are endothermic, etc. At the same time it lists all True Dragons... as of 2003, three years before Races of the Dragon, and thusly dragonwrought became a thing.

Note: If I sound biased in anyway, sorry. I actually am one of the people that don't care one way or another.

[zingbobco000]

Yep. While you get the Dragon type from Dragonwrought, it doesn't specifically state that you become a "true dragon". Though, to be fair, I can't rightly recall where "true dragon" is defined. If I recall, it's any dragon with 12 age categories, but I can't think of a source to back it up.

That's how it's defined in the dracononimicon.

[olentu]

Yep. While you get the Dragon type from Dragonwrought, it doesn't specifically state that you become a "true dragon". Though, to be fair, I can't rightly recall where "true dragon" is defined. If I recall, it's any dragon with 12 age categories, but I can't think of a source to back it up.

As I recall dragon magic is the most recently published book I can think of that gives such a definition.

[Platinum Piece]

Manson The Manbold:

Venerable Dragonwraught Arctic Earth Kobold Whiling Frenzy Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1

L1: Dragonwraught
F1: Epic Toughness
F2: Epic Toughness


Laugh at you foes as you shrug off their attacks with your Minimum 72 HP. Charge them with your Greatclub and bite. Rinse and repeat as much as you can to show them how much of a real man you are.

[malonkey1]

Manson The Manbold:

Venerable Dragonwraught Arctic Earth Kobold Whiling Frenzy Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1

L1: Dragonwraught
F1: Epic Toughness
F2: Epic Toughness


Laugh at you foes as you shrug off their attacks with your Minimum 72 HP. Charge them with your Greatclub and bite. Rinse and repeat as much as you can to show them how much of a real man you are.

How are you qualifying for Epic Toughness?

[Segev]

How are you qualifying for Epic Toughness?

If you buy two things from a particular interpretation of the RAW, then kobolds with Dragonwrought are True Dragons, and Dragons in the Old or older age category can take Epic feats without having to meet the prerequisite levels.

The first is debated, but often accepted as a premise in theoretical optimization exercises; it is definite that Dragonwrought makes a kobold have the Dragon type, at the bare minimum, however.

The second is a legitimate reading of the RAW, however it is also debated because, contextually, one could also interpret the RAW to be running off of an implication that it still requires having hit dice over 20, even if your character level isn't. But it never says that outright, so taking the RAW strictly at face value is possible, if a bit silly.

This is, however, why Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Kobolds are often level 1 PCs in theoretical optimization. This undoubtedly counts as "venerable," granting them the +3 to mental stats, and lets them take epic feats at first level.

[malonkey1]

If you buy two things from a particular interpretation of the RAW, then kobolds with Dragonwrought are True Dragons, and Dragons in the Old or older age category can take Epic feats without having to meet the prerequisite levels.

Specific over general, fair enough. However, I'd say this is definitely cheese. Such rules were never intended for player use, and it's unclear if Draconic Old" is the same as "Kobold Old". An interesting concept, though.

[zingbobco000]

Manson The Manbold:

Venerable Dragonwraught Arctic Earth Kobold Whiling Frenzy Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1

L1: Dragonwraught
F1: Epic Toughness
F2: Epic Toughness


Laugh at you foes as you shrug off their attacks with your Minimum 72 HP. Charge them with your Greatclub and bite. Rinse and repeat as much as you can to show them how much of a real man you are.

Take the loredrake and spellhoarding. You can't have both artic and earth. You know cast as a lvl 2 wizard. The first epic toughness should be toughness.

[Doc_Maynot]

Take the loredrake and spellhoarding. You can't have both artic and earth. You know cast as a lvl 2 wizard. The first epic toughness should be toughness.

Loredrake requires some spellcasting to start with.

[zingbobco000]

Loredrake requires some spellcasting to start with.

No, it doesn't I'm looking at it right now. It states all true dragons have the capability to cast spells, so...

[Fable Wright]

No, it doesn't I'm looking at it right now. It states all true dragons have the capability to cast spells, so...

So Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't True Dragons, and so do not qualify for Loredrake, Spellhoarding, or Epic feats.

[Doc_Maynot]

Loredrake clearly says, "Once the Dragon has the ability to cast spells, his effective sorcerer level is increased by two."
Emphasis mine.

Also Loredrake isn't for true dragons only. As it is an optional rule that any dragon can be modified by.

[Zombulian]

Take the loredrake and spellhoarding. You can't have both artic and earth. You know cast as a lvl 2 wizard. The first epic toughness should be toughness.

The feel when you say you can't have arctic and earth at the same time but maintain that kobolds are true dragons.

Quit it. Even if it weren't wrong it would still be too cheesy to be posted in this thread.

[zingbobco000]

So Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't True Dragons, and so do not qualify for Loredrake, Spellhoarding, or Epic feats.

Capability


Loredrake clearly says, "Once the Dragon has the ability to cast spells, his effective sorcerer level is increased by two."
Emphasis mine.

Also Loredrake isn't for true dragons only. As it is an optional rule that any dragon can be modified by.

It's an archetype




The feel when you say you can't have arctic and earth at the same time but maintain that kobolds are true dragons.

Quit it. Even if it weren't wrong it would still be too cheesy to be posted in this thread.

Ok, quitting. No more conversation about this.

[Amphetryon]

I recall seeing an old build of Aristocrat 1, that spent his relatively considerable starting money on a Dart with True Strike once a day. The shtick is hanging out in a local tavern and generating further above-standard WBL by winning bets on hitting the bull's eye with his lucky special dart. No Flaws or any such shenanigans required, for the level 1 non-caster version of salty cow wealthomancy.

[Platinum Piece]

I would like to point out that any dragon of old or older can take epic feats, not just true dragons. And last I checked, epic toughness doesn't require toughness.

As for arctic and earth together, arctic is the template from dragon 306, applied to the earth kobold variant race.

[Zombulian]

I would like to point out that any dragon of old or older can take epic feats, not just true dragons. And last I checked, epic toughness doesn't require toughness.

As for arctic and earth together, arctic is the template from dragon 306, applied to the earth kobold variant race.

Oh shiz. That's true haha. Draconomicon pg. 66.

[zingbobco000]

I would like to point out that any dragon of old or older can take epic feats, not just true dragons. And last I checked, epic toughness doesn't require toughness.

As for arctic and earth together, arctic is the template from dragon 306, applied to the earth kobold variant race.

Oh yeah, that's true!

[Friv]

I recall seeing an old build of Aristocrat 1, that spent his relatively considerable starting money on a Dart with True Strike once a day. The shtick is hanging out in a local tavern and generating further above-standard WBL by winning bets on hitting the bull's eye with his lucky special dart. No Flaws or any such shenanigans required, for the level 1 non-caster version of salty cow wealthomancy.

I feel like that's not going to work out great for you in the long run. Unless you're in a pretty upscale tavern, the bets you're going to be winning will be measured in copper, or maybe silver. Even if you can get people into a 25 gp bet (which is about $500, remember) it will take over two weeks just to earn the money you spent on the dart back, and if someone challenges you to double or nothing (or hell, just gets angry) you are in so much trouble.

In other words, it's a great character for an actual game!

[Amphetryon]

I feel like that's not going to work out great for you in the long run. Unless you're in a pretty upscale tavern, the bets you're going to be winning will be measured in copper, or maybe silver. Even if you can get people into a 25 gp bet (which is about $500, remember) it will take over two weeks just to earn the money you spent on the dart back, and if someone challenges you to double or nothing (or hell, just gets angry) you are in so much trouble.

In other words, it's a great character for an actual game!

If memory serves, the original build specified a city of 10,000 or more as a home base, allowing the Aristocrat to move between a few taverns over the course of the week/month, and relied on basic CHA-based skills to get out of 'double-or-nothing' challenges.

Dealing with angry losing bettors would probably just default to the bouncers for this concept.

[Aegis013]

Is this really true? (That the community agrees) The consensus seemed to lean the other way before my leave of absence.

There is still a camp that say DWKs are technically true. I'm in that camp, though I admit the designers likely didn't intend for them to, and both groups have always had pretty good arguments for their sides. It does seem from my experience most playgrounders believe they are not, however.

[toapat]

The creativity you people have astounds me. To be honest, I'm surprised I haven't seen Precocious Apprentice mentioned.

most of the PA cheese doesnt matter at level 1.

[Zombulian]

most of the PA cheese doesnt matter at level 1.

Yeah, it usually comes online when you get into a PrC that you weren't meant to at like level 2.

[toapat]

Yeah, it usually comes online when you get into a PrC that you weren't meant to at like level 2.

or making a mystic or Triple theurge at level 4 which gets tripple 9s at level 20 and rewrites the universe as a free action

[malonkey1]

I recall seeing an old build of Aristocrat 1, that spent his relatively considerable starting money on a Dart with True Strike once a day. The shtick is hanging out in a local tavern and generating further above-standard WBL by winning bets on hitting the bull's eye with his lucky special dart. No Flaws or any such shenanigans required, for the level 1 non-caster version of salty cow wealthomancy.

Me gusta. I'd actually extend that, run him as some kind of trick shot master that performs on stage, moving from town-to-town. Here's my thought for the build.

Azurin Aristocrat 1
Str 12 Dex 15 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 14 (elite array)
1: Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves)
1 (Racial): Expanded Essentia Capacity
1 (Flaw): Cobalt Precision (for an extra Essentia)

16 skill points
Perform - 4 ranks +2 Cha
Knowledge Local - 4 ranks
Other ranks are moot.

The idea is to use

[ddude987]

How are you qualifying for Epic Toughness?


Any feats gained
after the dragon reaches old age can be epic feats

Draconomicon doesn't say anything about epic feats pre epic are exclusive to true dragons, just dragons that are old age. Regardless if DWK makes a kobold true dragon, it gets age categories and is a dragon, therefore qualifying. This is at least how I've interpreted this passage, and some groups I've played with. If anyone knows different I am genuinely curious for debunking this.

[OldTrees1]

Draconomicon doesn't say anything about epic feats pre epic are exclusive to true dragons, just dragons that are old age. Regardless if DWK makes a kobold true dragon, it gets age categories and is a dragon, therefore qualifying. This is at least how I've interpreted this passage, and some groups I've played with. If anyone knows different I am genuinely curious for debunking this.

Exploiting poor editing and lack of author to author communication is cheese of the 3rd rankest sort.
Most DWK exploits fall into this category due to exploiting the authors of Races of the Dragon not reading Draconomicon.

[ddude987]

I digress because I've seen to many DWK threads.

I'm not sure how powerful level 1 is defined for this, and this has probably been suggested but...

Orc - Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1
Feat: Animal Devotion

and of course the usual arctic template could be applied.

[nedz]

The creativity you people have astounds me. To be honest, I'm surprised I haven't seen Precocious Apprentice mentioned.

It's mildly abusive on something like a Spellthief, who doesn't get level 2 spells until level 8 otherwise, but it's not world breaking.

[Zombulian]

It's mildly abusive on something like a Spellthief, who doesn't get level 2 spells until level 8 otherwise, but it's not world breaking.

I was never sure if that worked or not. Don't you need an arcane caster level of 1 to take that feat? I don't think they have that at level 1.

[nedz]

I was never sure if that worked or not. Don't you need an arcane caster level of 1 to take that feat? I don't think they have that at level 1.

It is debatable, less so if you also take Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606). Though you do run into the problem of having an undefined caster level in this case, since CL = SpTh level / 2 after 4th. Stealspell does allow you to cast spells with the CL of the target though, which is at least 1.

Ed: maybe this is one for the dysfunctional rules thread ?

[malonkey1]

It is debatable, less so if you also take Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606). Though you do run into the problem of having an undefined caster level in this case, since CL = SpTh level / 2 after 4th. Stealspell does allow you to cast spells with the CL of the target though, which is at least 1.

Ed: maybe this is one for the dysfunctional rules thread ?

Practiced Spellcaster to bring your CL up to HD (CL 1), Precocious Apprentice.

[nedz]

Practiced Spellcaster to bring your CL up to HD (CL 1), Precocious Apprentice.

But then you could do this with Fighter, as long as you can get spellcraft as a class skill.
Apprentice, Practised Spellcaster, Precocious Apprentice — I guess you need at least one flaw.

[malonkey1]

But then you could do this with Fighter, as long as you can get spellcraft as a class skill.
Apprentice, Practised Spellcaster, Precocious Apprentice — I guess you need at least one flaw.

The problem with that reasoning is that Fighter isn't a spellcasting class. And you need to actually have a spellcasting class. It's not written in the prerequisites, but in order to benefit, you must:


Choose a spellcasting class that you possess. Your spells cast from that class are more powerful.

[toapat]

Apprentice

Apprentice cant provide Spellcraft as a class skill. it gives UMD and Know: The planes

[nedz]

Apprentice cant provide Spellcraft as a class skill. it gives UMD and Know: The planes

Yes, I realised that after posting though it's slightly academic.
You can use Keeper of Forbidden Lore instead ( Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss p86)

[Tessman the 2nd]

just combine all that wizardy goodness: Immediate magic Conjurer is very winneristik, you really just dominate being able to teleport out of harm for int-mod times a day combine with the grey elf deal or kobold cheese and fairy mysteries initiate or do something with incarnate construct warforged like mineral warrior for funz

[malonkey1]

Exploiting poor editing and lack of author to author communication is cheese of the 3rd rankest sort.
Most DWK exploits fall into this category due to exploiting the authors of Races of the Dragon not reading Draconomicon.

I'm curious, what's cheese of the second and first rankest sort?

[toapat]

Yes, I realised that after posting though it's slightly academic.
You can use Keeper of Forbidden Lore instead ( Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss p86)

Well, typically Apprentice Spellcaster is just better then Skill Knowledge or Keeper of Forbidden lore


first rankest sort?

usage of Sarruhk's Manipulate form.

[OldTrees1]

I'm curious, what's cheese of the second and first rankest sort?

2nd: Pun Pun (not 1st in my opinion for at least it is honest)
1st: Intentionally seeking/inventing alternative definitions of words to change the meaning of printed rules. Aka changing the language in order to change the rules.

[dextercorvia]

Apprentice cant provide Spellcraft as a class skill. it gives UMD and Know: The planes

It's actually any knowledge.

[Harrow]

I would personally list cheese of the second rankest sort as PCs gaining monster abilities, either racial or using monster feats/PrCs.

Players weren't meant to have Illithid Savant, or Beholder Mage, or Hulking Hurler. Yes, you can qualify for those, but you really shouldn't. Half the reason the Polymorph subschool of spells is considered overpowered is all the otherwise unique abilities it gives you access to. WotC really should have come up with a "PCs can't have this" tag to stick on things.

For First Rankest of all Cheese, I would say willful misinterpretation of the rules. For example, trying to use Bucket Healing in an actual game.

[Chronos]

Eh, I wouldn't put Hulking Hurler in the same category as Ilithid Savant or Beholder Mage. It doesn't require any specific monster race, and there are plenty of Large races with manageable LA. Mindflayers, though, have an LA that's equivalent to "Don't even think about it", and beholders are LA --.

[Stallion]

Evil Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Dragonfire Adept 1. Two flaws and a trait. Entangling Exhalation, Willing Deformity, Deformity: Obese, and the Quick trait, trading 1 hp/level for an additional 10 ft/round movement speed. Assuming 18 constitution from rolls/point buy, you end up with 26 constitution, 17 HP, and the ability to kite for days. Give flasks of oil to other party members for hilarity, as well as the age old problem solving process of setting things on fire. My party of this build, a cleric, and a rogue DESTROYED a group of seven werewolves with this. Many lulz were had.

[Zombulian]

Evil Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Dragonfire Adept 1. Two flaws and a trait. Entangling Exhalation, Willing Deformity, Deformity: Obese, and the Quick trait, trading 1 hp/level for an additional 10 ft/round movement speed. Assuming 18 constitution from rolls/point buy, you end up with 26 constitution, 17 HP, and the ability to kite for days. Give flasks of oil to other party members for hilarity, as well as the age old problem solving process of setting things on fire. My party of this build, a cleric, and a rogue DESTROYED a group of seven werewolves with this. Many lulz were had.

Don't forget the Arctic template for another +2 to Con. Also arguably you can't have Dragonborn and be evil at the same time without DM fiat refluffing it to Dragonborn of Tiamat.

[malonkey1]

Alright, I have a Truenamer build, actually, which I think may actually be semi-workable at this level.

Str 8 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 10 Cha 14

Human Truenamer 1

1) Skill Focus (Truespeak) +3 to Truespeak
1) Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind (Minor Word of Nurturing)
F) Grell Alchemy
F) Extraordinary Artisan

Utterances: Universal Aptitude, Minor Word of Nurturing

Take 20 to Craft(Calligraphy) a Masterwork Tool (Truespeech Cheat Sheet/Tome): 12.5 GP to craft, +2 to Truespeak

Truespeak 4 ranks +2 Int +3 feat +2 item +5 (Universal Aptitude) = +16 (Auto-win vs. CR 1, 50% vs. CR 5.5)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4 ranks +2 Int = +6
Craft (Alchemy) 4 ranks +2 Int = +6
Craft (Calligraphy) 4 ranks +2 Int = +6
Knowledge (History) 4 ranks +2 Int = +6
Use Magic Device 4 ranks +2 Cha = +6
Perform (Oratory) 4 ranks +2 Cha = +6

The idea is that he'll open up Universal Aptitude to Reversed Minor Word of Nurturing the largest foe, possibly try reverse WON against other enemies, and uses crafted alchemical weapons after his initial volley of babble.

[Chronos]

So, you spend one round buffing yourself, then the second hitting one guy, the the third concentrating on maintaining the damage on that one guy, and then the fourth making your second attack? OK, it's playable, but that's hardly what I would call OWN.

[Deathra13]

Warlock with summon swarm invocation.

[malonkey1]

So, you spend one round buffing yourself, then the second hitting one guy, the the third concentrating on maintaining the damage on that one guy, and then the fourth making your second attack? OK, it's playable, but that's hardly what I would call OWN.

I agree, but this is Truenamer. I was just trying to make Truenamer that wasn't complete garbage.

[Doc_Maynot]

Warlock with summon swarm invocation.

Bonus: Add in Dark Speech to make it an intelligent swarm with sorcerer powers

[malonkey1]

Bonus: Add in Dark Speech to make it an intelligent swarm with sorcerer powers

Can't. Requires base Will Save +5

[Doc_Maynot]

Can't. Requires base Will Save +5

Darn. :smallfrown:

[Stallion]

Don't forget the Arctic template for another +2 to Con. Also arguably you can't have Dragonborn and be evil at the same time without DM fiat refluffing it to Dragonborn of Tiamat.

We used a cult of Ashardalon for that campaign. Ended up refluffing the whole DFA class. Was pretty sweet.
Plus, no DM I've ever encountered allows anything from Dragon Magazine, sadly.

[Angelalex242]

Any race with a charisma bonus sorcerer, with color spray, spell focus illusion. Use a flaw to pick up great spell focus illusion if flaws are allowed.

20 Charisma...

DC 17(18) Color Spray ougghta do it.

Equip with a longspear to coup de gras anything that drops from 10 feet away.

[sideswipe]

fighter hit point man! brilliant in a level 1 adventure, pathetic if you ever gain a level.

essentially a human fighter with an 18 in con who has all traits and flaws and any way of getting a feat and pumping them into toughness.

i really cannot remember the build me and a friend made but i believe we got to 40 hp without infinite loops or anything. just feats and con and stuff.

like i said pathetic at level 2 onwards but at level 1 against equivalent monsters you will take about 10 hits before you care. and that is after getting past the ac of 20 ish. big armour and tower shield with a sword or small longspear. all you need at level 1 lol


the other one was the cleric with i think 17 or 18 feats..... you would be sooooo evil......

[Angelalex242]

Hit point man vs. my sorcerer.

Roll a DC 18 will save.

...a 15? That's too bad. Coup de gras. :P

[sideswipe]

Hit point man vs. my sorcerer.

Roll a DC 18 will save.

...a 15? That's too bad. Coup de gras. :P

fair enough. but most lvl 1 encounters (as in monsters) don't really have saves above DC 12-13 max. and he is a completely silly build and concept. using probably the worst feat choice. just so happens when it is a lvl 1 only campaign he does very well.

[Angelalex242]

He certainly does do very well! And actually, he can remain useful till about level 4 or so, when color spray starts losing power and you generally want to switch to glitterdust.

He is still ideal for a Play By Post Campaign, where real life tends to axe the DM in 6 months and moves so slowly you're lucky to see level 2. :P

[ArqArturo]

Barbarian 1 with falchion
Druid 1, especially human druid 1 with Spell Focus and Augment Summoning

[malonkey1]

He certainly does do very well! And actually, he can remain useful till about level 4 or so, when color spray starts losing power and you generally want to switch to glitterdust.

He is still ideal for a Play By Post Campaign, where real life tends to axe the DM in 6 months and moves so slowly you're lucky to see level 2. :P

Hence this thread. I was wanting to run an E1 game, and wanted to know what kind of mad optimizing people might try. I think it'd be safe to say that it would not present too many challenges to DM, and it actually seems fun to play.

[RedMage125]

Wizard grey elf generalist with fairy mysteries initiate feat is probably the best answer here. Possibly add a LA +0 template or two that improves int, since you're almost totally SAD on int now (only really caring about con for fort saves and dex for initiative, AC, touch attacks, and reflex saves). Not being a template stacker myself, I don't actually know of any off the top of my head that improve int.
If feats from Forgotten Realms are allowed, you could also take Mind Over Body, which makes you use your INT mod instead of CON for your 1st level hit points (all subsequent levels use CON as normal), and gives you +1 hp every time you gain a metamagic feat, and gives you a free +1 insight bonus to AC. Great feat for a wizard.


Human cleric with undeath and planning domains, then persistent spell and DMM: persist for feats. Take two flaws, both for extra turning. You can now persist a whole lot of l1 and l0 spells. You can also take ocular spell and DMM: ocular spell as the flaw bonus feats if you'd like, since it'll allow you to persist a few additional spells or persist some of them on your allies, but really that's not as important. May not seem like much but you can still have Talons, Bless, Divine Favor, and Entropic Shield persisted. Dependant on charisma score. Right now with 10 cha you can have 2 spells persisted. With 22 cha you can have 3. 22 Cha on level 1 is achievable via template stacking.
Ummm...doesn't Persist Spell require Extend Spell to be taken first? I see a lot of builds where people suggest you just take Persist and DMM Persist, and never mention Extend Spell in their build. But Extend is a prerequisite.

But just make Extend Spell and Extra Turning your flaw feats for this suggestion, here.

Also, I think for what the OP was going for that "template stacking" is cheese.

Anyway, my own suggestion:

I know how terrible Fighters are, but at level 1, their bonus feats, d10 hp and +1 BAB have them sitting pretty close to the top of the heap.

Human Fighter, take 2 flaws. Make one of your skills Craft (armorsmithing), and as part of your background, take 20 on the check to make yourself some Breastplate armor for 1/3 the cost. For your 5 feats, take EWP(spiked chain), Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Least Dragonmark (Mark of Passage). Improved Initiative if your DM won't allow dragonmarks.

With at least a 14 in DEX, you get 3 AoOs per round, may make AoOs flat-footed, and you've got insane reach. Oh, did I mention make sure your party spellcaster knows Enlarge Person?

This character could more than handle the groups of goblins and kobolds that are level 1 party fodder. When Enlarged, there's almost no way any could reach him in melee, and Breastplate Armor at level 1 is decent anough that he should be okay vs ranged attacks.

Quite obviously this is not a character who could be "mighty" beyond, like, level 3. But the challenge was to build a level 1 character with no cheese. Excepting flaws, everything here comes out of the PHB, even.

[Karnith]

Ummm...doesn't Persist Spell require Extend Spell to be taken first? I see a lot of builds where people suggest you just take Persist and DMM Persist, and never mention Extend Spell in their build. But Extend is a prerequisite.Planning Domain (SpC, p. 278) gives you Extend Spell as the domain-granted power. That's why it's recommended so often as a part of DMM: Persist builds.