Item of Flameblade?

[Seharvepernfan]

Flame blade is a 2nd level druid spell that conjures a scimitar made of fire that deals fire damage with touch attacks. This seems like a great weapon for a rogue, right? A command word item of flame blade could cost as little as 10-11k gp, and a continuous or use-activated one 12k...so why isn't this a thing I've heard of?

I know it might be cheaper to throw alchemical flasks, but you technically can't quick-draw them by RAW, and this is an option for melee rogues.

I wonder if you can switch the elements via the elemental-substitution metamagic feat, if you are the creator?

I imagine the item as being a swordhandle with no blade, but it might be more useful as a glove, ring, or bracer, so that you have a free hand.

Thoughts?

[Jeff the Green]

There are a number of spells like this. Blade of pain and fear does damage plus fear, scimitar of sand causes desiccation, and there are some claws that cause Strength damage to creatures you grapple. I've actually considered building a character who focuses on these.

But yeah, they're good for rogues, but also for martial adepts. There are some maneuvers that would be much improved by making them touch attacks. I think it should also work with Power Attack, making it a better option than wraithstrike for some builds.

[Starbuck_II]

Flame blade is a 2nd level druid spell that conjures a scimitar made of fire that deals fire damage with touch attacks. This seems like a great weapon for a rogue, right? A command word item of flame blade could cost as little as 10-11k gp, and a continuous or use-activated one 12k...so why isn't this a thing I've heard of?

I know it might be cheaper to throw alchemical flasks, but you technically can't quick-draw them by RAW, and this is an option for melee rogues.

I wonder if you can switch the elements via the elemental-substitution metamagic feat, if you are the creator?

I imagine the item as being a swordhandle with no blade, but it might be more useful as a glove, ring, or bracer, so that you have a free hand.

Thoughts?

Actually in 3.5, any weapon-like objects can be quick drawn. This includes alchemy Flasks.

They specifically called out this to nerf flasks in Pathfinder so they knew it worked.

But yes, melee rogues get nothing, but 10K is expensive.

[Twilightwyrm]

Why yes, I imagine it would be very effective for a melee rogue to have a lightsaber.

On a more serious note, it would indeed be nice, but unless you are a dervish, the weapon is scimitar that is incapable of being enchanted, making it rather difficult to use with weapon finesse. It's still nice because it is a touch attack, but I imagine it would kind of suck having to use Str to hit with it, when you explicitly forbids you from then adding it to damage. Unless you are a dervish. In which case, go nuts.

[Eladrinblade]

Why yes, I imagine it would be very effective for a melee rogue to have a lightsaber.

On a more serious note, it would indeed be nice, but unless you are a dervish, the weapon is scimitar that is incapable of being enchanted, making it rather difficult to use with weapon finesse. It's still nice because it is a touch attack, but I imagine it would kind of suck having to use Str to hit with it, when you explicitly forbids you from then adding it to damage. Unless you are a dervish. In which case, go nuts.

Don't touch attacks always use dex?

[Prime32]

MIC has the Spectral Dagger, a 6,000gp weapon that resolves each attack as a chill touch spell. Negative energy damage is harder to resist than fire.

[Eladrinblade]

MIC has the Spectral Dagger, a 6,000gp weapon that resolves each attack as a chill touch spell.

Well...damn.


/thread.

[justiceforall]

Don't touch attacks always use dex?

Not if they are melee attacks. Unless you have weapon finesse.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't touch attacks always use dex?

No, but according to Complete Arcane p72-73 weaponlike spells (those which make attack rolls) can be used with certain feats. It states that touch spells may be treated as light weapons for purposes of using Weapon Finesse with them, though Flame Blade is not a touch spell, it creates an effect which happens to make touch attacks.

I would allow Weapon Finesse to be used with Flame Blade, Ice Axe, and similar spells which cannot add your Str bonus to their damage, considering their effects should be weightless and thus even lighter than the lightest weapon.

Also note that any bonus damage to a weapon deals the same type of damage as that weapon's base damage. Sneak attacking with a longsword adds additional slashing damage, sneak attacking with a flame blade deals additional fire damage.

You could include Cloistered Cleric 3 in your build, use Knowledge Devotion to make up for the BAB loss, and use Ice Axe with DMM: Persistent so it lasts all day. You can cast it twice even and TWF with them, and consider adding on Fell Frighten and/or Fell Drain, and if you're going to use Energy Substitution get Electric along with Born of the Three Thunders. You'll only suffer the drawback of that when you first cast them, and then all day your hits will force saves vs being stunned and knocked prone. With Born of the Three Thunders your extra sneak attack damage will be half electric and half sonic, the same as the weapon's damage.

[Spuddles]

Don't touch attacks always use dex?

No, always strength.

[geekintheground]

MIC has the Spectral Dagger, a 6,000gp weapon that resolves each attack as a chill touch spell. Negative energy damage is harder to resist than fire.

yeah, but fort partial/will negate DC 11 is pretty pitiful for that price.

[Eladrinblade]

Not if they are melee attacks. Unless you have weapon finesse.

What the hell. I've always thought they used dex regardless. Yet another rule I've believed for years but was wrong about.

[Seharvepernfan]

What the hell. I've always thought they used dex regardless. Yet another rule I've believed for years but was wrong about.

Yup. Me too.

It makes sense that they would use dex; it seems like it would be all about accuracy and speed, not musclepower.

[tyckspoon]

yeah, but fort partial/will negate DC 11 is pretty pitiful for that price.

It's only a save against the Strength damage. You'll do the 1d6 negative energy regardless, which is good enough when all you really want from it is an easy enabler of touch attacks so you can Sneak Attack the heck out of things more easily.


What the hell. I've always thought they used dex regardless. Yet another rule I've believed for years but was wrong about.

Might have been thinking about Ranged Touch Attacks, which do use Dex.. 'course, they do that because of the Ranged part, not the Touch part.

[Snowbluff]

Poison Rings are cheaper. :smalltongue:

[geekintheground]

It's only a save against the Strength damage. You'll do the 1d6 negative energy regardless, which is good enough when all you really want from it is an easy enabler of touch attacks so you can Sneak Attack the heck out of things more easily.


huh... probably shoulda read the spell itself before commenting :smalleek: :smallredface:

[XmonkTad]

In a similar vein, a Moon Blade (SpC) let's you scramble spellcasting. With precision damage you can beat out a non-optomized concentration check, and any monster that relies on spell-likes rather than spells may not bother maxing out concentration.

In the spell compendium it's listed as only being a "moon 3" spell, but it lists an arcane material component, so I think you should be able to make an eternal wand of it.

[Jeff the Green]

In a similar vein, a Moon Blade (SpC) let's you scramble spellcasting. With precision damage you can beat out a non-optomized concentration check, and any monster that relies on spell-likes rather than spells may not bother maxing out concentration.

In the spell compendium it's listed as only being a "moon 3" spell, but it lists an arcane material component, so I think you should be able to make an eternal wand of it.

It's also available to hathrans and if an arcane caster gets the moon domain.

Also, anyone know what bad pun its material component ("A small candy made with wintergreen oil") is?

[Snowbluff]

It's a starlight mint.

[Spuddles]

originally celebrated and curiously strong

[Snowbluff]

originally celebrated and curiously strong

Dusty and circular... like the MOON!

... Nah, I think y answer still works. :smalltongue:

[Prime32]

In a similar vein, a Moon Blade (SpC) let's you scramble spellcasting. With precision damage you can beat out a non-optomized concentration check, and any monster that relies on spell-likes rather than spells may not bother maxing out concentration.

In the spell compendium it's listed as only being a "moon 3" spell, but it lists an arcane material component, so I think you should be able to make an eternal wand of it.I've got a list of other "weapon spells" here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10747.0;msg=192653) if you're interested.

[Snowbluff]

I've got a list of other "weapon spells" here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10747.0;msg=192653) if you're interested.

Oh, the Illithid is you over there? I didn't notice.

[Tantum Umbra]

No, but according to Complete Arcane p72-73 weaponlike spells (those which make attack rolls) can be used with certain feats. It states that touch spells may be treated as light weapons for purposes of using Weapon Finesse with them, though Flame Blade is not a touch spell, it creates an effect which happens to make touch attacks.

I would allow Weapon Finesse to be used with Flame Blade, Ice Axe, and similar spells which cannot add your Str bonus to their damage, considering their effects should be weightless and thus even lighter than the lightest weapon.

Who says they are weightless? The fact that they are touch attacks merely means they ignore physical armor.. so you swing it.. hit their armor/natural armor and it ignores that part. Nothing says they're weightless and i could imagine an ice axe would be quite heavy and a flame blade cumbersome in its own way (If it's like a lightsaber, aren't those oddly unwieldly thus the reason why the jedi's fight with them in that very particular way?)

[TuggyNE]

Who says they are weightless? The fact that they are touch attacks merely means they ignore physical armor.. so you swing it.. hit their armor/natural armor and it ignores that part. Nothing says they're weightless and i could imagine an ice axe would be quite heavy and a flame blade cumbersome in its own way (If it's like a lightsaber, aren't those oddly unwieldly thus the reason why the jedi's fight with them in that very particular way?)

It's not that they're touch attacks necessarily, but that they don't add Str to damage.
Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage.

Lightsabers are, if I recall, weirdly gyroscopic; this is not really a problem of mass, but of twisty off-axis forces. "Immaterial" sure sounds weightless to me.