New Archetypes! Cool Paladin One! Stupid Fighter One!

[grarrrg]

So there I was, dredging through the PFSRD looking for new archetypes to update the dipping guide, and to see if any were useable/worth it.
A Burn Rider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/burn-rider-barbarian-archetype) Barbarian can see perfectly fine through Fire/Fog/Smoke, gets a Mount at level 4, and regains a round of Rage during any round they take Fire damage. Handy stuff. Although they do lose half their Rage Powers, and Uncanny Dodges.

There's a Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/arcane-healer) that can Channel Energy and convert Performance Rounds into Cure spells. Interesting.

But that's not why you're here.
You're here for the title. You want the Paladin one. You want to see the stupidity of the Fighter one.

To quote Family Guy, "Let he who is without sin, kick the first @$$!"
Enlightened Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype)
It's basically a Monk/Paladin, without the extra suck.
It gets Improved Unarmed Strike, and gets 1/2 rate 'Monk Unarmed Damage' progression.
It can get CHA to AC (similar to Canny Defense from the Duelist PrC), the only "good" feature it loses is Mount (keeps Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, etc...).
It does trade away a bunch of the Auras, but it gets good/interesting things in exchange.
It loses Smite Evil and basically gains "Smite Anything"

Once per day, an Enlightened paladin can as a swift action declare one target within line of sight as his personal trial. The Enlightened paladin gains a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature, to his AC against attacks made by the target, and on saving throws against the target's spells and special abilities. This bonus increases by 1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter... +1/day use every 4 levels.
Granted, the damage bonus is pitiful compared to Smite Evil, the To-Hit bonus is comparable. But the lack of "must be evil"? Worth its weight in gold baby (as for losing "ignores DR", this Paladin also gets a Ki Pool that can be used to ignore DR).

Now for the...not so good...
Learned Duelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/learned-duelist-fighter-archetype) Fighter
Straight off the bat it looks pretty decent, it loses Heavy Armor and Tower Shields, which isn't necessarily a big loss, and trades the 1st level bonus feat.
That's it. It does lock you into 1 type of Weapon Group for the Training bonuses, which is pretty common with Archetypes, so it looks fine at a glance.

1st level is a Dodge Bonus to AC...but only if you are wearing Light/No Armor, have a 1-handed melee weapon, and an empty hand.

Weapon Training is locked to the "Light Blades" group, but if you qualify for the Dodge-AC bonus you get +2 to damage, so this one ain't too bad.

Level 9 gives you INT to damage...if you are using Vital Strike (or better). Kinda 'meh' since the bonus only applies once, but if you confirm a Critical Hit it does MAXIMUM DAMAGE!...but the INT is not multiplied, and you are locking into the Light Blades group, most of which don't have much for Die Size or Multiplier. On the other hand, many Light Blades have good Crit-Ranges, so this isn't too bad.
Granted, it doesn't say you HAVE to use a Light Blade, but since you are getting a Weapon Training bonus, you may as well use a Light Blade.

Level 13 is bad. Very bad. Worse than Monk bad.
How bad?

a Learned duelist is able to apply his specialized knowledge of anatomy and physiology to his bladework. The duelist can make dirty trick, disarm, and trip combat maneuvers using any one-handed piercing or slashing weapon.
*facepalm*
*headdesk*
*facedesk*
*headpalm*
THIS IS NOT 3.5!
YOU CAN TRIP/DISARM/WHATEVER WITH _ANY FREAKING WEAPON EVER_!
THERES A FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nvd) THAT COVERS THIS!!
It doesn't give you a bonus.
It doesn't count as you having "improved" feats for these maneuvers.
You.
Get.
NOTHING!

Level 17 is...actually pretty decent.
When you confirm a Critical Hit you get to deal Ability Damage, to the Ability of your choice. The amount is equal to your Crit Multiplier.
_ANY_ ability damage.
This _almost_ makes up for the utter failure that level 13 is (that and you have to wait until level 17...).
And remember kiddies Weapon Mastery at level 20 increases your Multiplier by +1. Get a 18-20/x2 weapon and go Crit Fishing for 3 Ability Damage a pop!


Disclaimer: I've only covered about half the base classes so far. Will edit/reply if I find any more 'gems'.

[Eldariel]

I mean, Smite will always be suspect when limited to 5/day even on 20; you'll miss it every now and then, and even when you won't, it's still only one attack. And half-rate UA progression makes it seriously hard to justify using it over weapons in any non-prison escape-scenario. Interesting, but feels underwhelming on an already mediocre chassis.

[BWR]

I mean, Smite will always be suspect when limited to 5/day even on 20; you'll miss it every now and then, and even when you won't, it's still only one attack..

Not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Do you mean to say that Smite is bad because each smite is only a single attack?
This isn't 3.5 but Pathfinder: Smite lasts until the target is dead or 24 hours have passed.

[deuxhero]

Burn Rider takes 4 rage powers to get what you can get for 2 feats. It's horrible.

Enlightened Paladin would be great if they changed one word:
This ability modifies smite evil.

That way it could actually qualify for the prestige class it's supposed to compliment. As it is, it's only good for making a 2 level sorcadin/oradin dip even better (IUS and 2 points of charisma to AC if not wearing armor you can't wear anyways/would restrict your existing charisma to AC this stacks with in exchange for detect evil? Score!).

[T.G. Oskar]

Level 13 is bad. Very bad. Worse than Monk bad.
How bad?

*facepalm*
*headdesk*
*facedesk*
*headpalm*
THIS IS NOT 3.5!
YOU CAN TRIP/DISARM/WHATEVER WITH _ANY FREAKING WEAPON EVER_!
THERES A FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nvd) THAT COVERS THIS!!
It doesn't give you a bonus.
It doesn't count as you having "improved" feats for these maneuvers.
You.
Get.
NOTHING!

Erm...maybe it's how the wording goes?

Perhaps the idea is that all the weapons from your group count as having the trip feature, so you can drop them without being tripped back when you fail the trip check. It's not great, but it's probably the intention.

Or maybe what you get is to use dirty tricks with your weapons. That's a big one, IMO: you add your weapon's enhancement bonus, Weapon Training bonus, Weapon Focus bonus and whatever other bonuses to weapons of that group when you wield them. Have you seen Dirty Trick? That Combat Maneuver is awesome, and making one of those tricks with a high chance of success (and with Weapon Training on that line of weapons, that means a free +4 to Blind, Stagger, Sicken or Entangle the opponent) is a win for me.

I reached the conclusion because of this (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom) interpretation, because the FAQ can be hard to understand as the PRD isn't updated as it should. Sure, you can trip and disarm with any weapon, but probably not dirty trick (conclusion #2), and not all light weapons have the disarm and trip features (save for the whip; ergo, conclusion #1). The rant's fine, but you should probably look to post that on the FAQs and see if they can fix it. As it stands, applying your weapons' bonuses on Dirty Trick means a lot.

To be honest? This is their version of a Swashbuckler with some Duelist on top. If you want to be a good duelist...go ahead. It's one of the few archetypes that doesn't replace Bravery, whereas nearly all of them replace them for something worse. It also doesn't replace Armor Training. It *should* stack with Corsair, and it definitely stacks with Dervish of Dawn (it only replaces Armor Training, which you otherwise keep). Rapid Attack + Surgical Strike + Lightning Strike does seem scary.

[Eldariel]

Not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Do you mean to say that Smite is bad because each smite is only a single attack?
This isn't 3.5 but Pathfinder: Smite lasts until the target is dead or 24 hours have passed.

Oh, right. Sorry about that; I somehow got the editions confused. That's pretty nice vs. big, individual Tarrasques then.

[grarrrg]

Liberator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/liberator-rogue-archetype) Rogue
1st level loses Trapfinding, part of the bonus is "never takes a penalty on Disable Device checks when using improvised tools to open locks".
So you take away my 1/2 level bonus to Disable Device, and let me ignore a situation -2 penalty instead? Yay?
The replacement for Trap Sense looks fun though, all Allies within 30ft. get a bonus to their Disguise and Stealth checks. This could be pretty sweet...if it wasn't on the Rogue...


Dune Drifter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/dune-drifter-cavalier-archetype) Cavalier
A straight up mash-up of Cavalier and Gunslinger.
Mostly loses Tactician and Charge abilities, but gains a fair number of Gunslinger Deeds, and feats and such.
Kind of oddly, it gains Spell Resistance at level 12. And it's worth 10+Character level, which is pretty respectable, considering that most other sources of Spell Resistance are only 5+Level or 10+1/2 Level.

Horselord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/horselord-cavalier-archetype) looks like fun. Mount gets movement boosts, you gain Mobility while mounted. Deals double damage with 1-hand Slashing weapons while mounted, gets Spring Attack and can use it while mounted while getting normal 'charge' bonuses!
And mainly only loses Tactician. Nice.

Siege Gunner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/siege-gunner-gunslinger-archetype) Gunslinger
Despite the name, it is not overly focused on Siege weapons (keyword "overly").
It gets an INT based Grit Pool (Spellslinger anyone?)
It's first replacement deed lets you focus a 'scatter' attack onto a single target, getting bonus damage in return.
3rd level replacement deed increases the area-cone of scatter attacks by 5 ft.
It does trade the 4th and 8th level bonus feats for (Master) Siege Engineer though.


Erm...maybe it's how the wording goes?

Possible.
My issue is that Paizo doesn't proof-read/fact-check near as much as they should, and this ability should darn well have been caught and adjusted.
Going purely "as written" 2/3rds of it does nothing, with only Dirty Trick left to question.

[Ssalarn]

I was going to point out as well that the saving grace of the level 13 ability is that Dirty Trick normally isn't a weapon-based maneuver, so you do gain something there. Agreed though, the disarm and trip references were just blatant goofs that really should have been caught by someone.

[Serafina]

Enlightened Paladin would be great if they changed one word:

That way it could actually qualify for the prestige class it's supposed to compliment. As it is, it's only good for making a 2 level sorcadin/oradin dip even better (IUS and 2 points of charisma to AC if not wearing armor you can't wear anyways/would restrict your existing charisma to AC this stacks with in exchange for detect evil? Score!).Not really, Personal Trial uses a different mechanic from Smite Evil (+ scaling insight bonus instead of +charisma to attack and +level to damage) - in addition of having no alignment restrictions, it really makes the Champion of Iroris (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori) (which i presume you are talking about) Smite Chaos superfluous and incapable.

Yes, it's a shame that the two can't be combined - but then again, what for? It wouldn't really add any new kinds of characters, given that a Champion of Irori already has everything (and a bit more) that the Enlightened Paladin gets (by virtue of having both paladin and monk levels) - so combining the two won't result into anything that a normal champion of irori isn't capable of (except maybe better numbers).


Note that the Unarmed Strike on the Enlightened Paladin is mostly a trap. For basically all of your career it will do less damage than a decent weapon (which you are still fully proficient with) and isn't required for any class abilities (no Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist or anything, other than Divine Body).
Where a Champion of Irori will fight unarmed, a Enlightened Paladin will grab a Two-Handed weapon and maaybe grab Two-Weapon fighting (most likely at higher levels where the Dexterity-requirement can be met via tomes) to make additional unarmed strikes.

When comparing a Enlightened Paladin to a normal one, the advantages are:
- lighter armor, thus better for archer-paladins (higher dexterity and all), as well as other builds that profit from lighter armor/higher dexterity.
- a Smite that works against any kind of target
- a Ki Pool, opening up a few feats and Ki Intensifying weapons (=free-action combat maneuvers)
- a completely custom code of conduct


A fun potential build:
Grab a one-level dip into Lore-Oracle for Sidestep Secret. Take Celestial Obedience (Arshea) and either wait until Level 16 or better yet advance it via Evangelist (slightly non-RAW, but celestial and deific obedience are really identical except for the name). Take a Ki-Intensifying Heavy Flail, Two-Weapon Fighting (once you can afford a +2 or +3 Dexterity tome) and go to town while you get your Charisma x3 (as armor bonus, instead of dexterity and from enlightened paladin) to AC.

[Sayt]

Annoyingly, we now have the Horse Lord Ranger and the Horselord Cavalier. Well, at least it's not another dervish!

Also, the Horselord might do okay in 3.PF games with the Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz feats, with a liberal GM.

[Metahuman1]

Burn Rider takes 4 rage powers to get what you can get for 2 feats. It's horrible.


Um, based on what I just read, you can deliberatly take insigificant amounts of burn damage every round of combat and never have to run out of rage, all day long. If there is a 2 feat combo that does that for me, please, tell me which feats, cause that sounds AWESOME!!!!!

[grarrrg]

Note that the Unarmed Strike on the Enlightened Paladin is mostly a trap. For basically all of your career it will do less damage than a decent weapon (which you are still fully proficient with) and isn't required for any class abilities (no Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist or anything, other than Divine Body).
Where a Champion of Irori will fight unarmed, a Enlightened Paladin will grab a Two-Handed weapon and maaybe grab Two-Weapon fighting (most likely at higher levels where the Dexterity-requirement can be met via tomes) to make additional unarmed strikes.

Agreed.
The biggest straight loss the Enlightened gets is that Divine Bond can ONLY be used for Unarmed bonuses. No mount. No other weapons.
Just use your best 'actual' weapon, and save Divine Punch for 'special cases' where your normal weapon won't help as much (and/or the Two-Weapon fighting thing).


Um, based on what I just read, you can deliberatly take insigificant amounts of burn damage every round of combat and never have to run out of rage, all day long. If there is a 2 feat combo that does that for me, please, tell me which feats, cause that sounds AWESOME!!!!!

Between your reply ^, your signature, and your avatar...that makes perfect sense :smallbiggrin:
But yes, cheap "all day Rage" is quite handy.


MOAR!!

Cold Iron Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/cold-iron-warden) can track creatures that have Teleported, and can sense and sometimes listen to Telepathic communication.
Outside of that, they have a MASSIVE hatred of Chaotic/Evil Outsiders. Mostly only loses the Teamwork feats though.

Antipaladin gained TWO archetypes
Rampager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/rampager-antipaladin-archetype):
Lose Aura of Cowardice > nearby enemies take a -4 Penalty to stop bleeding. Meh.
Lose Aura of Despair > nearby Injured enemies take 1 Bleed damage. Meh.
Lose Aura of Sin > nearby Healing spells (and spell-likes) don't work...unless the caster makes a caster level check (your level +11). Probably more annoying than useful, but it has potential.
Overall, I'd rather have the standard Antipaladin Auras.

Seal-Breaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/seal-breaker-antipaladin-archetype) is a better alternative than Rampager. Still overall worse than straight Antipaladin.
Lose Aura of Cowardice > Mindless Undead won't attack you on their own, and if ordered must make a Successful Save.
Fiendish Boon > If you choose Mount, you instead get an Undead Mount. Fair enough.
Lose Aura of Despair > _ALL_ nearby Undead get +2 to all Saves. Good if they are your Undead. MUCH less good otherwise.
Lose Aura of Vengeance > If someone nearby dies, spend 2 Smite Goods to summon a Mohrg for 1 minute. Possibly handy.

[deuxhero]

Undead mount is NOT a fair trade. Anti-Paladin's pet is CRAZY past the early levels. Ever want to give the entire party +2 to their best stats and have a telepathy network on top of it, all while gaining a great diplomancer and unlimited Vampric Touch to stuff into a spell storing weapon?


Um, based on what I just read, you can deliberatly take insigificant amounts of burn damage every round of combat and never have to run out of rage, all day long. If there is a 2 feat combo that does that for me, please, tell me which feats, cause that sounds AWESOME!!!!!

I was going to say Destroyer's Blessing, but ARG reprinted it and nerfed it.

I'd love to know HOW you take that damage without blowing actions.

[grarrrg]

I was going to say Destroyer's Blessing, but ARG reprinted it and nerfed it.

I'd love to know HOW you take that damage without blowing actions.

Simple.
You set yourself on fire.
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/dan_mcninja_6058.jpg

[Metahuman1]

Simple.
You set yourself on fire.
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/dan_mcninja_6058.jpg

Pretty much this. Or you have your weapon trapped to do some rather puny amount of damage with a low level fire spell or alchemist fire or some such if your holding it, thus meaning you take a wee bit of fire damage every round that won't matter with your D12 and Con as, at worst, your number 2 stat, and get the never ending rage.

And yeah, I'm kinda sublte about that sorta thing, arn't I? XD!


duexhero: So, there isn't a two feat combo to make the all day rage happen as long as your being burned, thus meaning that the Archatype has merit? Or is it just that they changed what feats you needed?

[deuxhero]

I was refering to two feats for a mount (nature soul+animal ally), which still exists.

[Metahuman1]

Well, what if I don't care about the mount and want the Archatype for endless rage? Is there a feat combo that get's me that?

[grarrrg]

Well, what if I don't care about the mount and want the Archatype for endless rage? Is there a feat combo that get's me that?

Not really.
Best you can do otherwise is Half-Orc Barbarian (to qualify for feats):
Alt-Favored bonus is extra Rounds Rage.
Destroyer's Blessing is an extra round on Sundering.
Gore Fiend is an extra round when you make, or take, a Critical Hit.
And there's always the good ole, stupid Drunken Brute archetype, as long as you Move Action drink Alcohol it doesn't cost you that round of Rage.

Bonus style points: Be an Ifrit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit) Burn Rider.
Take the 'Fire in the Blood' and the 'Wildfire Heart' Traits.
Fire in the Blood gives you Fast Healing 2 for a round whenever you take Fire damage (limited to Level=Rounds per day though).
Wildfire Heart is the only way to lose the Racial 'Fire Resist 5'.

EDIT:
For making "Burn = Rage" work, you need some way to heal, as you must actually take damage for the ability to work.
A source of continuous healing would be good.
Ring of Regeneration isn't affordable until around level 10-ish, and that is only 1 HP/round.
Regenerative Vigor can help, giving you Fast Healing 1 for every 6 levels you have. The problem with this is that it is only useable 1/_day_, so Rage Cycling is not going to be an option with this route.
Standard "on fire" damage is 1d6, or 3.5 every round. A 12th level Barbarian can have Fast Healing 3 (Vigor power + Ring). Taking only .5 damage per round. This is good, but it doesn't get us "all day Rage" as we are still (slowly) accumulating damage (30 damage per hour). We either need another continuous/at-will type bonus, or we have to wait until Barbarian 18.

[Metahuman1]

Not really.
Best you can do otherwise is Half-Orc Barbarian (to qualify for feats):
Alt-Favored bonus is extra Rounds Rage.
Destroyer's Blessing is an extra round on Sundering.
Gore Fiend is an extra round when you make, or take, a Critical Hit.
And there's always the good ole, stupid Drunken Brute archetype, as long as you Move Action drink Alcohol it doesn't cost you that round of Rage.

Bonus style points: Be an Ifrit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit) Burn Rider.
Take the 'Fire in the Blood' and the 'Wildfire Heart' Traits.
Fire in the Blood gives you Fast Healing 2 for a round whenever you take Fire damage (limited to Level=Rounds per day though).
Wildfire Heart is the only way to lose the Racial 'Fire Resist 5'.

EDIT:
For making "Burn = Rage" work, you need some way to heal, as you must actually take damage for the ability to work.
A source of continuous healing would be good.
Ring of Regeneration isn't affordable until around level 10-ish, and that is only 1 HP/round.
Regenerative Vigor can help, giving you Fast Healing 1 for every 6 levels you have. The problem with this is that it is only useable 1/_day_, so Rage Cycling is not going to be an option with this route.
Standard "on fire" damage is 1d6, or 3.5 every round. A 12th level Barbarian can have Fast Healing 3 (Vigor power + Ring). Taking only .5 damage per round. This is good, but it doesn't get us "all day Rage" as we are still (slowly) accumulating damage (30 damage per hour). We either need another continuous/at-will type bonus, or we have to wait until Barbarian 18.

Would Leadershipping an oradin cut it do you think?

[grarrrg]

Would Leadershipping an oradin cut it do you think?

It should work fine.

I just want to find a lower level way to be Raging ALL THE TIME WHILE ON FIRE!
Picture this: Barbarian wakes up, puts on his armor, sets himself on fire and starts Raging for the day.
Breakfast time? Fire Rage.
Barter in town? Fire Rage.
Walking the dog? Fire Rage.
Tea break? Fire Rage.
Heading to the Pub? Fire Rage.


Heck, while we're at it, why would we ever need to leave Rage at all?
Raging Vitality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/raging-vitality) feat: "Your rage does not end if you become unconscious."
Take a nap? Fire Rage.

May as well work in an Intimidation based build too. Why? Because your DM pretty much HAS to give you a special-circumstances bonus on your Intimidate check, seeing as how you ARE CURRENTLY ON FIRE AND DON'T GIVE TWO FLIPS and all that.

[Morty]

Paizo can't make a good archetype for duelist-type warriors to save their lives. In other news, water is wet and things that go up have a tendency to subsequently go back down.

[Metahuman1]

It should work fine.

I just want to find a lower level way to be Raging ALL THE TIME WHILE ON FIRE!
Picture this: Barbarian wakes up, puts on his armor, sets himself on fire and starts Raging for the day.
Breakfast time? Fire Rage.
Barter in town? Fire Rage.
Walking the dog? Fire Rage.
Tea break? Fire Rage.
Heading to the Pub? Fire Rage.


Heck, while we're at it, why would we ever need to leave Rage at all?
Raging Vitality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/raging-vitality) feat: "Your rage does not end if you become unconscious."
Take a nap? Fire Rage.

May as well work in an Intimidation based build too. Why? Because your DM pretty much HAS to give you a special-circumstances bonus on your Intimidate check, seeing as how you ARE CURRENTLY ON FIRE AND DON'T GIVE TWO FLIPS and all that.

Well, as you say, conventional fire is 1d6 a round. The trick is to either A) get that going all day or B) get a less damaging source of fire up and running all day, then step two is to get automatic healing every round of the highest damage possible for the fire to deal to you in one round. So, 6 points of healing a round for 1d6 damage, for example. It can be higher, but it needs to be a minimum of 6 points no matter what ever round so that no matter what, you never come out with fewer HP then normal for using your rage.

Apart from that, we need a way to knock out fatigue from being a thing that can affect you. Why? Because with unlimited Rage rounds a day, and unless I badly misremember and rage is not a free action/none action to turn on and off every time, I can, if I'm not taking fatigue for leaving rage, enter rage, use what ever rage powers I like, leave rage, re-enter rage before ending my turn, thus meaning all my rage powers are fresh so if I have any passive one's that help defense or something there all fresh as of when I end my turn. Then next turn, leave rage, enter rage, act, with fresh rage power uses, and then leave and re-enter rage again for the end of my turn. It keeps my rage powers fresh and ready to be used or spammed at the drop of a hat pretty much all the time. I'd argue that would actually make Pathfinder Barb a full leg up form an AFC'd out 3.5 Barb, and even maybe be worth loosing the rage powers for this archatype because what rage powers you do have can be used almost endlessly!


Now, the fire is easy enough, Buy a Cursed suit of armor that get's a price reduction after like level 2 or 3, maybe 4 tops, and have the/one of the/ curses be that the wearer takes none magical fire damage every round. 1d6 if standard, but might be more/less depending on the DM. That get's you your easy always there fire damage (might even get the DM to rule that people grabbing you and the like also take this damage unless they have resistance/immunity.), so all we need is that ability to get away from suffering fatigue and a way to automatically heal 6 hp a round. Any ideas/suggestions here?

[Zubrowka74]

Somehow persisted Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing) and a mount that deals constant fire damage?

[Metahuman1]

Somehow persisted Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing) and a mount that deals constant fire damage?

I'm not wild about the pinging evil, but sadly, that's only good for 1 point of damage a round unless we can stack like 6 castings, which I seem to recall there being a rule against.

[Zubrowka74]

I'm not wild about the pinging evil, but sadly, that's only good for 1 point of damage a round unless we can stack like 6 castings, which I seem to recall there being a rule against.

The "Greater" version is 4 points. It's also not 1st level. But the ability works on any amount of fire damage, right?

[Metahuman1]

Yes, however, the level one version, which is cost effective, only offset's 1 of potentially 6 points of damage every round. Which isn't enough.

The greater version takes care of 4 out of up to 6 points which is much better, but will be far more cost intensive since it's a 4th level spell, and would still require you to come up with another 2 points of healing a round.

Hmmm.

Ok, just a wild hare idea. What would the minimum caster level and price tag be for an item of contentious maximized cure light wounds? I have a rough idea for a plan but I'd need that info for it to maybe work.

[Slipperychicken]

Dune Drifter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/dune-drifter-cavalier-archetype) Cavalier
A straight up mash-up of Cavalier and Gunslinger.
Mostly loses Tactician and Charge abilities, but gains a fair number of Gunslinger Deeds, and feats and such.
Kind of oddly, it gains Spell Resistance at level 12. And it's worth 10+Character level, which is pretty respectable, considering that most other sources of Spell Resistance are only 5+Level or 10+1/2 Level.


Is there anything in the Dune Drifter archetype which lets you challenge with a firearm? Because I don't see it.


Aside from that, it seems like a gun challenge could be used to terrifying effect if the build can pony up the standard ranged weapon feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim). I just imagine this thing spamming full-attacks off a double-barreled pistol (for 2 attacks per shot), at Touch AC, each shot adding the Drifter's level to damage. They don't get dex to damage, although a 3-level dip into Trench Fighter could fix that right up (and also score 2 much-needed feats).

[grarrrg]

and would still require you to come up with another 2 points of healing a round.

If you can get a "1 damage/round cursed armor" than a Ring of Regeneration is enough to offset the damage (nothing else, but that's "OK" for all day Rage).

As for "needing" to heal 6hp/round, 4 should be fine, 5 should be plenty.
While you may hit a run of 5's and 6's, it's unlikely, and the average damage of a d6 is only 3.5, which since we plan on (being able to) Rage-all-day, the average is more important.


Is there anything in the Dune Drifter archetype which lets you challenge with a firearm? Because I don't see it.
Nothing until level 11. You double the threat range of your gun (which does NOT stack with Improved Critical, which you probably already have...), and "if the dune drifter rolls a misfire during his challenge, the Dune drifter can spend 1 grit point to reroll the attack roll."
Note that it says "during" the challenge, not "against the target of" the challenge :smallamused:

Sadly, the Luring Cavalier archetype, which DOES get a Ranged-Challenge does not stack with Dune Drifter. :smallfrown:

[Zubrowka74]

A Small Flame-Spawned (http://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/flame-spawned-creature-cr-varies-tohc) Mount would deal 1d4 / round.

[Ssalarn]

Is there anything in the Dune Drifter archetype which lets you challenge with a firearm? Because I don't see it.

I think a lot of freelancers and even in-house writers forget the fact that Challenge is melee only for the Cavalier. Paizo went out of its way to avoid combat style restrictions on class abilities for pretty much every class except the Cavalier, and I think people miss that.

In "Knights of the Inner Sea" there's a Cavalier order (Order of the Wild, I think?) that gives scaling bonuses specifically to ranged attacks against the target of your Challenge without giving any way to add your Challenge damage to the attacks.

[Slipperychicken]

I think a lot of freelancers and even in-house writers forget the fact that Challenge is melee only for the Cavalier. Paizo went out of its way to avoid combat style restrictions on class abilities for pretty much every class except the Cavalier, and I think people miss that.


I could see that. The main reason I remember is because I made a ranged cavalier once.

It's still pathetic that the writers miss this stuff. It's as if they're just skimming the rules rather than seriously reading them.

[Axier]

Popping in on Enlightened Paladin... It CAN get into Champion of Irori...

With a 3 level detour into Chevalier. Making it the only Paladin to ever enter that class. And, theoretically, you could then combine Personal Challenge with Smite Evil or Smite Chaos. More single target buffs!

Enlightened Paladin 4/Monk 3/Chevalier/Champion of Irori X

Am about to use this in a game, so hopefully it goes well.

[squiggit]

Siege Gunner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/siege-gunner-gunslinger-archetype) Gunslinger
Despite the name, it is not overly focused on Siege weapons (keyword "overly").
It gets an INT based Grit Pool (Spellslinger anyone?)
It's first replacement deed lets you focus a 'scatter' attack onto a single target, getting bonus damage in return.
3rd level replacement deed increases the area-cone of scatter attacks by 5 ft.
It does trade the 4th and 8th level bonus feats for (Master) Siege Engineer though.


Int based grit and the scattergun deeds both sound pretty cool. Not a fan of the replacement bonus feats though. Ah well.

[grarrrg]

Popping in on Enlightened Paladin... It CAN get into Champion of Irori...

With a 3 level detour into Chevalier. Making it the only Paladin to ever enter that class. And, theoretically, you could then combine Personal Challenge with Smite Evil or Smite Chaos. More single target buffs!

Enlightened Paladin 4/Monk 3/Chevalier/Champion of Irori X

Am about to use this in a game, so hopefully it goes well.

Interesting...
Chevalier gives Smite Evil and Aura of Courage, both of which are traded away by Enlightened Paladin.

Ki Pool of Level minus 6. Note: if you have more than one Ki Pool you have to choose ONE of the stats to count towards your Ki, see the Ninja Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) entry. This also bring up the question of how much WIS you have/want. Either try to get a decent WIS to make use of Monk features, OR choose a Monk archetype that 'trades away' the more WIS heavy abilities.

Unarmed Damage of...2+3+10, 15th level Monk, not bad, could be better, but not horrible.

"Smite" is confusing though...
Personal Trial is not Smite, and doesn't say it counts as Smite for any reason, so it's stuck at "4th level" of 2/day, with a +2 bonus. BUT all the bonuses are Insight bonuses, and will stack with every bonus that Smite Evil/Chaos gives. So if needed you can "double up" on the bonuses.
As for _actual_ Smite Evil, your _actual_ levels of Paladin should not count towards it, as your Paladin levels don't have that feature.
So you'd have at best 13 "Paladin" levels towards damage (from the PrC's), and only 3/day uses (Chevalier +1, Champion +2)

[Axier]

Interesting...
Chevalier gives Smite Evil and Aura of Courage, both of which are traded away by Enlightened Paladin.

Ki Pool of Level minus 6. Note: if you have more than one Ki Pool you have to choose ONE of the stats to count towards your Ki, see the Ninja Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) entry. This also bring up the question of how much WIS you have/want. Either try to get a decent WIS to make use of Monk features, OR choose a Monk archetype that 'trades away' the more WIS heavy abilities.

Unarmed Damage of...2+3+10, 15th level Monk, not bad, could be better, but not horrible.

"Smite" is confusing though...
Personal Trial is not Smite, and doesn't say it counts as Smite for any reason, so it's stuck at "4th level" of 2/day, with a +2 bonus. BUT all the bonuses are Insight bonuses, and will stack with every bonus that Smite Evil/Chaos gives. So if needed you can "double up" on the bonuses.
As for _actual_ Smite Evil, your _actual_ levels of Paladin should not count towards it, as your Paladin levels don't have that feature.
So you'd have at best 13 "Paladin" levels towards damage (from the PrC's), and only 3/day uses (Chevalier +1, Champion +2)

Ki pool rules in Ninja specify Ninja ki pool stacking with other ki pools and choosing one stat. As far as I can tell, this one doesn't. Although it is one of those things that is likely intended. I gain 1/2 level ki for all but chevalier levels I believe. Could be wrong about that, but as far as I know, adding CHA isn't going to kill anyone... "Unless the DM is evil!"

Monks Robes cover the last 5 levels of monk unarmed damage. AC is counted for all but 7 levels for monk AC bonus. CHA to Dex bonus should help there with the two spare following Monks Robes.

Smite Evil from Chevalier states "As a paladin equal to your Character level", so all of my levels count. 3 uses compared to 5 with all the multiclass benefits is negligible in my mind. The "double up" kinda covers anything I would need in an emergency, or I can just use them separately. Also, CoI allows me to spend ki on Smite Evil. So I have much more uses than normal now that I think about it.

Been wrong before. Clarifications welcome.

Contemplating going full tilt with CoI, or going back to Paladin or Monk. One more level of Paladin would provide the whole, enchant my body with divine righteousness.

[grarrrg]

Ki pool rules in Ninja specify Ninja ki pool stacking with other ki pools and choosing one stat. As far as I can tell, this one doesn't. Although it is one of those things that is likely intended.

It isn't going to break the game either way, just pointing out a likely ruling.
Of course, the Rogue has a Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ki-pool-ex) Talent that gives "+1/2 WIS to Ki" instead of 'choose stat' if you already have a Ki Pool.
Then again, the Shigenjo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tengu/shigenjo-oracle-tengu) Oracle archetype goes with "pick a stat" again.
Semi-inconsistent with "pick a stat" being the most common.
Ask your DM.


Smite Evil from Chevalier states "As a paladin equal to your Character level", so all of my levels count.

Alright then!
Never paid too much attention to Chevalier, as it was just "non-Lawful Paladin Lite".


Contemplating going full tilt with CoI, or going back to Paladin or Monk. One more level of Paladin would provide the whole, enchant my body with divine righteousness.

I'd stick with CoI. It stacks for too many things, and Divine Bond isn't that great when you first get it. A Standard Action to add _a_ +1 bonus (or equivalent) is kinda 'meh'.

[marcielle]

Ahem. A torch "deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage".
Strap a flaming torch to your back so the fire touches you, or if your DM is REALLY nitpicky, pay a small commoner with -2 STR penalty to continually swing at you and let yourself get hit(bonus points if it is some manner of child instead of a halfling or gnome). Ring of Infernal Healing. Rage foreverafter.

[Axier]

Credit where credit is due; LoneKnave (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qx5u?Inner-Sea-Combat-New-Monk-Archetypes#41) posted this build idea on Paizo's boards. Might make a thread on that and variant builds sometime soon. Instead of flooding this one.

As for Chevalier archetypes and ranged attacks, that has always annoyed me, but most of the time; you RaI it. Some things are just blaitently obvious.

Like monkey lunge removing lunge penalty, not making you incapable of using the damn lunge feat's benefit anyway.

As for "Torch of infinite rage"... No, just no... Burn Rider in general seems like something that is so mount oriented, but has something so useful for just about any barbarian, it doesn't even matter. Fire damage for more rage makes this almost crazy against anything that does fire damage.