Balancing Encounter for Optmized Party

[Arael666]

I'm planning a big encounter for a party of 6 level 3 very optmized players (at least by my standards), and I would like some help designing it.

1 - Water Orc Half Minotaur Lion Toten Barbarian 1/ Fighter 1 (plans to go into Frenzied Berserker). His feats so far are: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Large and in Charge and Cleave.

2 - Stronghearth Halfling Swashbuckler 3 (plans to go into Master Thrower). His feats so far are: Weapon Focus (stone), Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Dead Eye, Far Shot and Quick Draw.

3 - Human Half Minotaur Crusader 2. His feats so far are: Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver, Stand Still and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)

4 - Desert Kobold Wizard 3 (specialized in enchantment). His feats so far are: Spell Focus (enchantment), Tatoo Focus (enchantment), Spellcasting Prodigy, Dragonwrought.

5 - Lesser Aasimar Cleric 3. His feats so far are: Extend Spell (domain), Weapon Focus (domain), Persist Spell, Reach Spell, Divine Metamagic (persist), Spell Focus (enchantment).

6 - Whisper Gnome Druid 3. His feats so far are: Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Ashbound Summoning and Greenbound Summoning.

The current BBEG is a Nomad 5/Thrallherd 5, the party doesn't know of his existance nor his intentions, they are pursuing what they believe to be a group of bandits (the thrallherd's believers), wich are composed of one level 4, one level 3, three level 2 and ten level 1 believers (the rest was killed by the PC's). The BBEG and his Thrall are not close and won't interfere in the fight.

4th level - Wizard 3/Warlock 1

3rd level - Barbarian 1/fighter 2 (using a towershield and protecting the wizard)

2nd level - 1 Marshal, 1 Dragon Shaman and 1 Cleric (the cleric will persist blessed aim and buff)

1st level - 2 sorcerers and 8 fighters (the sorcerers will focus on ray spells like ray of enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness, while the figther will shower the PC's with arrows).

Next session they'll probably raid the "bandits hideout", wich is almost identical to the Moathouse in the "Temple of Elemental Evil" game.

So, what does the playground think? Is the encounter too easy? Too hard? Or for once in my life I made an apropriate chalenging encounter?


Last minute confession, the group actualy fougth caravan raiding bandits the first fights, but as I gradually increased the strength and tactics of the bandits the PC's started o think there was someone leading them (or even controlling them). I liked the idea... but now there's a problem I'm having a tough time dealing with, why would a Thrallherd make his minions raid caravans? The reason the PC's don't know the BBEG intentions is because I don't know it either :smallredface:, any suggestions?.

[JeminiZero]

Last minute confession, the group actualy fougth caravan raiding bandits the first fights, but as I gradually increased the strength and tactics of the bandits the PC's started o think there was someone leading them (or even controlling them). I liked the idea... but now there's a problem I'm having a tough time dealing with, why would a Thrallherd make his minions raid caravans? The reason the PC's don't know the BBEG intentions is because I don't know it either :smallredface:, any suggestions?.
Raiding for profit (i.e. gold) seems reasonable enough. From the BBEG's perspective, as a thrallherd, minions cost nothing to replace, so sending them on high risk/high profit raids makes financial sense.

Or if pure profit seems too weak a motive, maybe the raids are a cover for a kidnapping scheme. So he is grabbing innocent victims for use in sacrificial rituals of some sort.

Or maybe he is searching for some macguffin in particular. Although I am currently at a loss as to what macguffin exactly, and why he has to raid passing caravans to find it. Maybe he got a tip off from a prophecy that it would be passing through the area at this time?

[John Longarrow]

OK,
Party Strengths are up close and personal melee.
Party Weakness is ranged and area control.

To challenge them, I'd skip the warlocks/sorcerers. Level 1 archers on mounts will give this party a nasty surprise and work very well as raiders.

I'd also flip the 4th and 3rd level's for what you are building.
Level 3 wizard/1 warlock with See the Unseen and his Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 bodyguard should give the party pause, especially when tossing Scorching Ray from behind a meat shield. I'd outfit the bodyguard with breastplate and towershield.

The trick is these guys won't do a lot of damage but will be very hard for the party to get close enough to do anything against.


For the BBEG, he's got a great idea. He's been raiding the caravans looking for brides. These are for himself and his followers. He's got this whole "Creating a utopia for himself" thing going.

[Arael666]

Raiding for profit (i.e. gold) seems reasonable enough. From the BBEG's perspective, as a thrallherd, minions cost nothing to replace, so sending them on high risk/high profit raids makes financial sense.

Or if pure profit seems too weak a motive, maybe the raids are a cover for a kidnapping scheme. So he is grabbing innocent victims for use in sacrificial rituals of some sort.

Or maybe he is searching for some macguffin in particular. Although I am currently at a loss as to what macguffin exactly, and why he has to raid passing caravans to find it. Maybe he got a tip off from a prophecy that it would be passing through the area at this time?

Raiding for money was also my first idea, maybe he wants to build something, I like the idea. The kidnappings never crossed my mind, they can be sacrifices needed for whatever it is he's building or even believers. Thanks.


OK,
Party Strengths are up close and personal melee.
Party Weakness is ranged and area control.

To challenge them, I'd skip the warlocks/sorcerers. Level 1 archers on mounts will give this party a nasty surprise and work very well as raiders.

I'd also flip the 4th and 3rd level's for what you are building.
Level 3 wizard/1 warlock with See the Unseen and his Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 bodyguard should give the party pause, especially when tossing Scorching Ray from behind a meat shield. I'd outfit the bodyguard with breastplate and towershield.

The trick is these guys won't do a lot of damage but will be very hard for the party to get close enough to do anything against.


For the BBEG, he's got a great idea. He's been raiding the caravans looking for brides. These are for himself and his followers. He's got this whole "Creating a utopia for himself" thing going.

While the mounted archers sounds pretty reasonable, I don't want fight them over open ground and since they are closing in the actual hideout I figure I could take advantage of the building somehow, I mean, they should expect a fortified building with so many bandits.

[John Longarrow]

Especially with a fortified hideout, archers should be expected. Why have a wall if you can't do damage from it???

[Arael666]

Especially with a fortified hideout, archers should be expected. Why have a wall if you can't do damage from it???

Point taken, but I still need at least 2 sorcerers, those two half minotaurs can one shot almost anything, hampering their STR and DEX and buffing my brawler is a must. Also, I dont get why swap the wizrd and the fighter, a level 3 wizard still has acess to level 2 spells, and the fighter will have 1 more feat, more HP and more BAB.

[John Longarrow]

A LVL 4 barbarian-1/Fighter-3 has the same feats as a LVL 3 Barbarian-1/Fighter-2. More HP, +1 BAB.

A LVL 3 or LVL 4 wizard both have 2nd level spells. Being able to toss a level of Warlock on the wizard means you can do some fun stuff though. Give him Practiced Spellcaster for his Warlock side and he's got a 2d6 endrich blast along with 2nd level spells.

The goal is to have something that the big and hitty character's can't one oneshot. A meat shield using a towershield for cover will keep either of them from going past. This leaves the wizard/warlock and his ranged henchmen with more space/time to do damage before the party cuts through them. You are trading a Lvl 4 melee-centric character (that will probably be dropped by your two big and hitties in a single round) for a wizard that can keep up some damage for several rounds.

If you go melee ot melee with the party, you play to their strenghts and don't challenge them as much. If your villians do the "Protect the wizard" schtick for melee and rely on more ranged combat, your party needs to be more tactical and fluid in its approach. This should be a more enjoyable encounter for both sides.

NOTE: I like having lots of ranged combat in game, mostly because it avoids the whole "I run up and HIT IT" mentality that a lot of dungeon crawlers get into.

[Arael666]

A LVL 4 barbarian-1/Fighter-3 has the same feats as a LVL 3 Barbarian-1/Fighter-2. More HP, +1 BAB.

A LVL 3 or LVL 4 wizard both have 2nd level spells. Being able to toss a level of Warlock on the wizard means you can do some fun stuff though. Give him Practiced Spellcaster for his Warlock side and he's got a 2d6 endrich blast along with 2nd level spells.

The goal is to have something that the big and hitty character's can't one oneshot. A meat shield using a towershield for cover will keep either of them from going past. This leaves the wizard/warlock and his ranged henchmen with more space/time to do damage before the party cuts through them. You are trading a Lvl 4 melee-centric character (that will probably be dropped by your two big and hitties in a single round) for a wizard that can keep up some damage for several rounds.

If you go melee ot melee with the party, you play to their strenghts and don't challenge them as much. If your villians do the "Protect the wizard" schtick for melee and rely on more ranged combat, your party needs to be more tactical and fluid in its approach. This should be a more enjoyable encounter for both sides.

NOTE: I like having lots of ranged combat in game, mostly because it avoids the whole "I run up and HIT IT" mentality that a lot of dungeon crawlers get into.

That... actually convinced me. I'm changing the initial setup, thanks for the tips.

[John Longarrow]

No problem. The 1/2 minotaur Orc in my current game tears through melee encounters far to quickly (unless he totally bombs on his rolls) for me to put melee-centric monsters against the party.
He's pretty balanced with the whispergnome rogue/warlock. They also make up for the MONK. Yes, one player decided they wanted to be a MONK for a challenge...

[Trasilor]

I think you are over analyzing the situation.

I used to fret over every encounter to ensure that the PCs were sufficiently challenged. Then I showed my group optimization. After the first person embraced it, everyone realized being effective in combat made the game run quickly and more smoothly.

Optimized characters tend to find a way. Their system mastery allows them to think outside the box in not only character creation but also game play.

Besides what's the worst that can happen...they die. In 3.5 that is almost a status effect. :smallamused:

[Arael666]

Right now they can't afford a ressurection so I'm trying to avoid deaths. Then again, this is suposed to be a big battle, I don't want that "those were the bandits that were raiding all those caravans? Meh!" feeling, it's not just being properly chalanged, big battles are suposed to be tough.