Duskblade into sublime chord "worth it"?

[CyberThread]

Doing whatever tricks needed to go duskblade into a sublime chord, worth it, for the added spell power ?

[Flickerdart]

This question makes no sense. Whether or not it's "worth it" depends entirely on the amount of effort expended to get in. You can't evaluate cost vs value without considering the cost

[HammeredWharf]

Human Bard 1 / Duskblade 9 / Sublime Chord 1 or 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Whatever

Feats: You'll probably need Able Learner.

So, it costs a level (ok, especially because a level of Bard is a decent dip anyway), two points of BAB (that's nothing) and Arcane channeling (full attack). The last one could hurt. You could also go Bard 1 / DB 13 / SC 1 or 2 / AC X. That's definitely worth it to get 7th level spells from a better list. The downside is that Chord's casting stat is Charisma, but you don't need much of it, because your spells will mostly be buffs and ones with no save.

[Feint's End]

Arcane channeling (full attack). The last one could hurt. You could also go Bard 1 / DB 13 / SC 1 or 2 / AC X. That's definitely worth it to get 7th level spells from a better list.

This is definitely the option you want to take. The only reason you take dusk blade is because of full round channeling. Getting 9 levels of it is pretty useless on its own.

[CyberThread]

Anyways, Entry point for something like this I think you are looking at Duskblade 10/Bard 1/ Chord 1/ Full BAB caster prc

Using an education feat, and maybe nymph kiss to bolster up the casting, would need a CHA 13 to qualify for chord spells, but would not have to raise it, to use the higher level spells.

hmm ill come up with a concept build tonight.

[Arc_knight25]

Its the Listen and Perform ranks that are going to get you I think. 13 and 10 respectively is a hard barrier to cross. Especially if you want more out of Duskblade.

What is the lowest level of Duskblade your willing to settle for? Because, Bard seems to be the best way to get those skill ranks.

[HammeredWharf]

This is definitely the option you want to take. The only reason you take dusk blade is because of full round channeling. Getting 9 levels of it is pretty useless on its own.

Depends on your DM's take on the full attack Channeling. RAW the channeled spell affects "each target" you attack, so it's only useful when you can attack two or more foes, making it more situational than 9th level spells.

Overall, it depends on the spells you want to channel. Chord opens some powerful options, such as the always-amusing Irresistible Dance and good old Harm (via Destruction domain). However, in some cases the full attack version of Arcane Channel is quite potent, so you may want to wait until lvl 13.

[CyberThread]

*thinks*


Do you think runesmith would be worth it in this meshing to continue duskblade casting, but gain class abilties, and just use divine magic to increase bab?

[Feint's End]

Depends on your DM's take on the full attack Channeling. RAW the channeled spell affects "each target" you attack, so it's only useful when you can attack two or more foes, making it more situational than 9th level spells.

Overall, it depends on the spells you want to channel. Chord opens some powerful options, such as the always-amusing Irresistible Dance and good old Harm (via Destruction domain). However, in some cases the full attack version of Arcane Channel is quite potent, so you may want to wait until lvl 13.

The thing is that if you don't want it you can basically leave dusk blade at 3 for better classes or not take it at all since the full round channeling is the defining feature.

[HammeredWharf]

Do you think runesmith would be worth it in this meshing to continue duskblade casting, but gain class abilties, and just use divine magic to increase bab?

How would you use divine magic? But no, I definitely wouldn't take Runesmith on a Duskblade. It does nothing to your casting, gives you some abilities that would be wasted on a low-magic class like yours, requires a feat and makes you worse at fighting. It lets you cast in heavy armor, but you're wearing a mithral chain shirt, anyway.


The thing is that if you don't want it you can basically leave dusk blade at 3 for better classes or not take it at all since the full round channeling is the defining feature.

If there were several Abjurant Champion -like PRCs, I'd recommend leaving Duskblade ASAP, but there aren't. What else are you going to take if you want 9th level spells and Channeling with a good BAB? Eldritch Knight? It gets no class features at all. A Bard 1 / Duskblade 5 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Sublime Chord 1 / Swiftblade 9 build could work, though. Gives you 8th level spells and Swiftblade's awesome class features. Unfortunately, you can't Spring Attack with Arcane Channeling, but you could use Channeling twice per round.

[CyberThread]

Knight phantom abd dark lantern

[Feint's End]

If there were several Abjurant Champion -like PRCs, I'd recommend leaving Duskblade ASAP, but there aren't. What else are you going to take if you want 9th level spells and Channeling with a good BAB? Eldritch Knight? It gets no class features at all. A Bard 1 / Duskblade 5 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Sublime Chord 1 / Swiftblade 9 build could work, though. Gives you 8th level spells and Swiftblade's awesome class features. Unfortunately, you can't Spring Attack with Arcane Channeling, but you could use Channeling twice per round.

Well you could just take level in Fighter or really any other full bab class with some nice frontloaded benefits (Warblade?). Anyways I thought the whole purpose of this thread was to make a build centred around the Duskblade and at least in my eyes that means having 13 levels of it because that is the defining feature of the class. All the other things can be replicated by other classes.

So Duskblade 13 + Bard 1 + Sublime Chord 1 + Full Casting/bab 5 is probably as good as it will get. bab 19 (partial) + 7th level spells.
Is it viable? It is most likely stronger than the vanilla Duskblade BUT it increases MAD (you will need charisma on top of intelligence which is otherwise a dumpstat).
Is it better than other options? I like to put a level of Warblade + Jade Phoenix Mage on top for some Initator goodness. Probably weaker but easer since not as MAD.

Generally the synergy between Duskblade and Sublime Chord isn't that big after I've looked through it. The 13 levels necessary to make a Duskblade a Duskblade + the MADness of the combination is too offputting for my taste. If you have the necessary stats then you might as well go for it though.

[Rebel7284]

Generally, if the question is "Is it worth it to get 9th level spells", the answer is always yes.

Both Bard 1/Duskblade 9 and Bard 7/Duskblade 3 qualify perfectly well, with the heavy bard version being much more friendly with your skill points (especially if you take Duskblade in the middle.)

Either way, you end up with a reasonably good gish with the usual gamebreaking abilities high level casters get. Shapechange >>>> full attack channeling. :)

[CyberThread]

How would you use divine magic?


Divine power is pretty cheap

[Metahuman1]

I suspect the OP may have confused Runesmith with Geometer.

[Feint's End]

Generally, if the question is "Is it worth it to get 9th level spells", the answer is always yes.

Both Bard 1/Duskblade 9 and Bard 7/Duskblade 3 qualify perfectly well, with the heavy bard version being much more friendly with your skill points (especially if you take Duskblade in the middle.)

Either way, you end up with a reasonably good gish with the usual gamebreaking abilities high level casters get. Shapechange >>>> full attack channeling. :)

So why play a Duskblade then? There are other classes who give you literally everything you can do as a Duskblade at those levels. Can they be combined this way? Sure they can but quite frankly I wouldn't call it a Duskbladebuild then.

[Coidzor]

Ish. At a certain point you need to rethink why you're going Duskblade.

[Metahuman1]

The same reasons you play a Wild Shape and/or Mystic Ranger, Factotum, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Dragonfire Adept, Shugenja, OA Shamen, Incarnate, Totemist, Binder, Psi-warrior, well built Wilder, Ardent, Well Built splat supported Bard, Crusader, Warblade or Swordsage i'd suspect.

[Rubik]

Wouldn't prestige bard be preferable to regular bard? But only if you can get Perform as a class skill, I guess.

[A_S]

I think there are absolutely good reasons to go Duskblade > Sublime Chord.

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First off, I think Bard 1/Duskblade 13/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5 is an absolutely legit build. You get everything you want out of Duskblade, delayed by one level, then starting at level 15 you get way, way better channeling options than a straight Duskblade gets, plus way better utility spells. Some highlights:

Celerity, Greater Mirror Image, Freedom of Movement, and Greater Invisibility at level 15 (core gish spells that are a big part of the reason Duskblades aren't optimal gishes by themselves).
Night's Caress (LM) at level 15, for a channelable spell that deals 15d6 damage + Fort vs. 2 Con damage on hit. This is far better for straight damage than anything Duskblade gets to channel.
Irresistable Dance at level 17. Channel it into a full attack for no-save-just-lose on everything within reach.
Arcane Spellsurge at level 19, making all your spells swift actions, leaving your standard/full round actions for attacking.
These spells all come online later than they would for a more standard full caster; this build isn't competitive with straight Wizard/Sorcerer and misses out on 9th level spells. If what you want to play is a Duskblade, though, it's vastly superior to taking Duskblade all the way to 20, while retaining the feel and playstyle of the class.

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Duskblade is also a decent "base" for builds that are more focused on their other casting classes. It provides:

Combat Casting, a common prerequisite feat in gish builds, as a bonus feat.
Full BAB to meet prerequisites early.
Arcane Channeling, letting you get more out of your standard action attacks than other gish builds (still probably inferior to full attacking, but anybody who's played melee knows you don't always get to full attack).
Gishy spellcasting right from level 1, letting you play a character who actually feels like a gish starting at low levels (compared to most other gish builds, which generally don't start to actually play like gishes until level 8 or so).

Here's a build I wrote up as part of an "all gish party" project a while back that uses Duskblade in this way:

Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

1 - Duskblade 1 - Apprentice (Entertainer), Power Attack
2 - Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (b)
3 - Duskblade 3 - Cleave
4 - Duskblade 4 - Cha 15
5 - Duskblade 5
6 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 - Abjurant Champion 2
8 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Cha 16
9 - Warrior Skald 1 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha 17
13 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
14 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
15 - Legacy Champion 1 - Arcane Strike
16 - Legacy Champion 2 - Cha 18
17 - Legacy Champion 3
18 - Legacy Champion 4 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord), Channel Legacy (b)
19 - Legacy Champion 5
20 - Legacy Champion 6 - Cha 19

ACF: Skilled City-Dweller (Ride > Tumble)

Skills:

1 (24) - Knowledge (arcana) 4, Knowledge (history) 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Perform (poetry) 4, Perform (sing) 4, Spellcraft 4
2 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (history) 5, Listen .5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 5, Perform (sing) 5, Spellcraft 5
3 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 1.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 6, Perform (sing) 6, Spellcraft 6
4 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 7, Listen 3 (cc), Perform (poetry) 7, Perform (sing) 7
5 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 8, Listen 4 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8, Perform (sing) 8, Profession (astrologer) .5
6 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 9, Listen 4.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8.5 (cc), Perform (sing) 9 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1 (cc)
7 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 10, Listen 5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 9 (cc), Perform (sing) 10 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1.5 (cc)
8 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 11, Profession (astrologer) 4 (cc)
9 (8) - Listen 12, Profession (astrologer) 5
10 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 13, Listen 13 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 6 (cc)
11 (8) - Concentration 8
12 (6) - Spellcraft 12
13 (6) - Concentration 14
14 (6) - Balance 1.5 (cc), Concentration 17
15 (8) - Balance 5 (cc), Concentration 18
16 (8) - Concentration 19, Spellcraft 18, Tumble 1
17 (8) - Concentration 20, Listen 18, Spellcraft 20
18 (8) - Concentration 21, Listen 21, Spellcraft 21, Tumble 4
19 (8) - Concentration 22, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 1, Listen 22, Spellcraft 22, Tumble 5, Use Magic Device 1, SKILL TRICK: Collector of Stories
20 (8) - Autohypnosis 1 (cc), Concentration 23, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 1, Listen 23, Spellcraft 23, SKILL TRICK: Twisted Charge

Autohypnosis: 1
Balance: 5
Concentration: 23
Knowledge (architecture and engineering): 1
Knowledge (arcana): 13
Knowledge (history): 5
Knowledge (nature): 4
Knowledge (nobility and royalty): 1
Listen: 23
Perform (poetry): 9
Perform (sing): 10
Profession (astrologer): 6
Spellcraft: 23
Tumble: 5
Use Magic Device: 1

Skill Tricks: Collector of Stories, Twisted Charge
It gets 16 BAB, 3rd level Duskblade spells, 9th level Sublime Chord spells, and all 7 levels of Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil class features. Duskblade (along with Warrior Skald) lets it meet the prerequisites for Sublime Chord without losing a single point of BAB, which is required to get the Iot7V features while retaining 16 BAB. The build also benefits from Arcane Channeling and the early gishiness that Duskblade provides.

[Coidzor]

I think there are absolutely good reasons to go Duskblade > Sublime Chord.

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First off, I think Bard 1/Duskblade 13/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5 is an absolutely legit build. You get everything you want out of Duskblade, delayed by one level, then starting at level 15 you get way, way better channeling options than a straight Duskblade gets, plus way better utility spells.

Indeed. I just don't see the point in going Duskblade if one's not going to really stick out with it to level 13 or duck out as quickly as possible after hitting level 3. Taking 9 or 10 levels of it but dropping out before 13 is something that should be a fully considered and weighed choice, and it just doesn't seem like there are many, if any, situations where it's a good choice even given the premise.

[A_S]

Indeed. I just don't see the point in going Duskblade if one's not going to really stick out with it to level 13 or duck out as quickly as possible after hitting level 3. Taking 9 or 10 levels of it but dropping out before 13 is something that should be a fully considered and weighed choice, and it just doesn't seem like there are many, if any, situations where it's a good choice even given the premise.
Yeah, I don't disagree with this. If you're going for 9th level Sublime Chord casting, dropping out at 3 seems like the right choice to me (maybe 5 if you have nothing better to spend two levels on). I do think Duskblade 3 is superior to most other full BAB classes for this dip, because of Arcane Channeling and Combat Casting. Whether this constitutes a "Duskblade build," well... *shrug*