Archetype Choices

[Svata]

I'm going to be in a simplified gestalt game soon as a Bard|Paladin and am having difficulties choosing an archetype for the paladin side. I don't plan on using an archetype on the bard side, though suggestions are welcome. I was thinking of using either Warrior of the Holy Light or Enlightened Paladin. Suggestions for ones outside of those are fine, those are just the ones I was looking at.

[T.G. Oskar]

Generally Warrior of the Holy Light is a bad idea, since you get no spells; however, Bard covers for that, so there's no problem there. WotHL starts really slow, with the big payoff on 20th level; the bonus on attack and damage rolls stacks with IC, but you'll need to get all levels to see something good (+4 competence from IC, +2 morale from Power of Faith). About the only thing I find nice is the resistance 20 and the Moderate Fortification effect. Enlightened Paladin makes you a Monk-like character, so I feel what you want is a self-sufficient character who can fight well and withstand just about everything...which begs the question of why Bard.

IMO, if you're there for a Bard, you're probably there for the Bardic Performance effects and mostly Inspire Courage (you said you don't want a Bard archetype, after all), so you'll be expected to buff. In this case, I'd make you consider Holy Tactician. You still get half your Paladin level to damage, as per their mark (I really can't bring myself to call it Smite, BTW), but you provide a fraction of that benefit to your allies, in addition to half your Charisma modifier to attack rolls, so they'll hit well and do decent damage. It doesn't stack with your IC bonus, but it'll generally be higher, and you can still provide the competence bonus against non-evil enemies, so you cover many aspects (later on, you can combine Weal's Champion with Inspire Heroics for bonuses to attack, damage and AC). Battlefield Presence lets you apply one of your Teamwork feats (of which you'll get a few) to your allies, which is further buffing.

If you still find Warrior of the Holy Light appealing, note that the things it replaces make it stack with just about any other archetype, including Holy Tactician or Enlightened Paladin. Also, note that because they both replace the mark (AKA the "Smite") and a few other class features, Holy Tactician and Enlightened Paladin are incompatible with each other. At most, you could go with Holy Tactician + WotHL or Enlightened Paladin + WotHL, but not all three. Unless your GM restricts you to 1 archetype per level, you could use your Bard spells overall and spread your buffs. It really depends if you prefer self-sufficiency to party buffing.

[Kudaku]

It really comes down to what you want your character to do?
For instance if you're making an archer with those classes then Dawnflower Dervish Bard/Divine Hunter Paladin is hard to beat. A vengeance-focused smite character and a support/defensive character benefits from completely different archetypes.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd suggest Chelish Diva Bard. It'll let you cast in medium and then heavy armor, to go along with being able to do so as a Paladin. It also features a nice no-save frightened effect song, and the ability to burn bardic music rounds at 2x rate to pump the save DC of them which may or may not prove useful. You don't lose much for the benefits, at least.

I also really like Thudercaller Bard for the ability to spam sound burst (and eventually use it 3/round when you can activate as a swift, move, and standard), though it doesn't really have any synergy with paladin.

For Paladin...I think the vanilla class is actually better than any of the archetypes that have come out so far.... But, getting Oath of Vengeance is a good idea. I suppose that's technically an archetype...

[stack]

I believe arcane duelists also get to cast in heavy armor eventually.

Seconding Oath of Vengeance for more smites.

Enlightened paladin would work if you are pumping your CHA to focus on casting/face skills/etc rather than melee, making the reduced smite damage less of a loss (assuming you are fighting mostly evil. If not, then being able to smite anything is an advantage even with the reduced damage.) You'll have great AC and saves. Maybe dip oracle for a level to get CHA to AC in place of dex (nature and lore both have revelations for this, details differ).

[grarrrg]

Holy Tactician Paladin would fit in with the "buffing the party" theme that most Bards have.


I'd suggest Chelish Diva Bard. It'll let you cast in medium and then heavy armor, to go along with being able to do so as a Paladin. It also features a nice no-save frightened effect song, and the ability to burn bardic music rounds at 2x rate to pump the save DC of them which may or may not prove useful. You don't lose much for the benefits, at least.

Good call on the armor thing.
Dwarf Bards can get Alt-Favored bonus of "reduce Arcane Spell Failure by 1%", but this is fairly slow...and on a -CHA class to boot...

If you're going to be "stuck" in Light armor, you might consider the Enlightened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype) Paladin archetype. While wearing Light Armor you get to add your CHA to AC as well.
It swaps around a fair number of Paladin things, but stays pretty solid overall.

[Pex]

Why do you need one? I'm not trying to be snarky. Just because archetypes exist doesn't mean you have to use one. Archetypes facilitate roleplay and offer, for the most part, fun game mechanics. When you have a clear idea of how you want to play your character then you can decide if you even need an archetype or find one that fits the character and offers fun things to play. Alternatively one can find an archetype that is just fun to play and build a personality for the character around it.

[T.G. Oskar]

For Paladin...I think the vanilla class is actually better than any of the archetypes that have come out so far.... But, getting Oath of Vengeance is a good idea. I suppose that's technically an archetype...

I...dissent.

Empyreal Knight's only weakness is replacing Divine Grace. The Mercies aren't that great, and while you lose Lay on Hands, you gain the ability to summon celestial creatures. Add Summon Good Creatures to this, and you suddenly have a toolbox that dwarfs both your spellcasting and more. Sure, perhaps the Summoner does better summoning than you do, but note that you're also using marks (I still can't muster the strength to call it "Smite"!) for the toughest enemies, your Mount also becomes more powerful, and eventually you and your summoned creatures can take it to the skies real easy.

I also insist that Holy Tactician is great, if only because what it replaces is something you won't really lose (honestly, you have Will saves by the bucketloads!), and Weal's Champion is not as bad as the mark, but provides a solid bonus that's almost always better than Inspire Courage.

As for Oaths: Oath of Vengeance is great, but if you plan to go the way of Tripping, or disabling via Stand Still and AoO Dazing Assault, Oath against Savagery is surprisingly good. It's also like Empyreal Knight in that it replaces Divine Grace (the only bad thing I put to this Oath), but between 5 ft. reach for 1 minute, enough Attacks of Opportunity to deal more attacks than anybody else, Haste as a 3rd level spell and Divine Power as a 4th level spell (and Divine Power works different here than in its 3.5 incarnation), it's really good. As for Oath of Vengeance: the extra smites are great, the spells are really good, but it's how it alters the Code that makes it a winner.

And I'm quite surprised by Enlightened Paladin. It makes Unarmed Paladin builds interesting, and even a Grappler Paladin surprisingly good. Well...as good as a Grappler build can be. And the only reason why I consider that Warrior of the Holy Light could work with this build is because it's Gestalt, because otherwise that's the worst archetype (a shame that it stacks with everything, while Undead Stalker can't stack with Oath against Undeath...)

[stack]

Sacred servant is also always good for the the free planar ally. It can be combined with oath of vengeance as well.

[T.G. Oskar]

Sacred servant is also always good for the the free planar ally. It can be combined with oath of vengeance as well.

Debatable, unless you can provide a good explanation. Trust me: I tried that on a GM, and he flatly refused because Sacred Servant and Oath of Vengeance both "modify" the spells. Personally, I find the modification to be so minimal it's almost irrelevant, but since Sacred Servant gives you a domain and Oath of Vengeance pads your spellcasting, apparently they both modify the same thing and hence they're incompatible.

That's a thing I don't really like from Archetypes, since you have to take the good and the bad, even if that would otherwise be ridiculous (such as an Aasimar going Empyreal Knight to bring out the "I want to unlock my Celestial Power" vibe, and getting nothing while losing Divine Grace, because they already get the Celestial language for free).

Since all Oaths modify spells, that would also make almost all other Oaths incompatible with Sacred Servant (and by definition, Warrior of the Holy Light). I mean, it's natural to get Oath of Vengeance to add more spells and cover for the only deficiency of Sacred Servant, but apparently it's too OP to turn uses of Lay on Hands into uses of the mark (what's commonly known to Pathfinder players as a "smite").