Question about Incarnum

[GreyBlack]

Hey guys! So I have a question about Incarnum. I understand the basics of it (essentia pool lets you bind stuff to different chakras instead of using a magic item), but one of my players wants to run a Totemist/Psychic warrior. I usually run a high psionics/magic campaign (sort of. It's... weird.). In saying that, I'm not familiar enough with Incarnum to know how much it could lead to severe borkedness. On one hand, I'm attracted to the idea of channeling your inmost power to enhance your abilities, and feel it may fit the campaign well. In saying that, I don't know how exactly it would interact with magic and psionics in game, and one of my friends once described Incarnum with Psionics as a recipe for derp. Anyone out there have any opinions on incarnum?

[Ssalarn]

Firstly, good news! You really don't need to worry about Incarnum breaking your game. Despite being really neat in the way that it works and allowing a lot of fun resource manipulation, it's actually pretty underpowered.
That being said, there's a lot of cool stuff you can do with it and it can be a fun way to put a character concept together without relying on specific pieces of loot or true spellcasting. It's very dip friendly, meshes well with psionics and is a blast to play with. That's actually why I'm in the middle of writing a sourcebook for Dreamscarred Press updating it to Pathfinder.

[PsyBomb]

Ssalarn has the right of it. Incarnum was my favorite subsystem of 3.5, and I'm happy to be assisting with the playtests for DSP. As for "breaking the system", the fact that he's a multiclass PsiWar precludes the one truly abusive thing in the book, the Necrocarnate Infinite Essence exploit.

[The Grue]

Ssalarn has the right of it. Incarnum was my favorite subsystem of 3.5, and I'm happy to be assisting with the playtests for DSP. As for "breaking the system", the fact that he's a multiclass PsiWar precludes the one truly abusive thing in the book, the Necrocarnate Infinite Essence exploit.

I googled that and found nothing. Can someone outline said exploit?

Purely for academic interest of course.

[Kennisiou]

In general, people are right that incarnum is pretty underpowered. You trade out gear slots for effects that are often weaker than the best effects for that build type given the gear slot they replace. It's got a few "newbie trap" moments and is a bit hard to understand as a subsystem due to poor editing of the book more than anything else. But mostly incarnum is straight forward in terms of what it's good at and how best to do it. I assume he's going to go Totemist/Psychic Warrior? If that's the case you may have a little to worry about if he starts doing the most ridiculous natural attack shenanigans possible, since both classes are pretty good for natural attacking builds, but otherwise it'll all be fine.

[The Insaniac]

I googled that and found nothing. Can someone outline said exploit?

Purely for academic interest of course.


If I understand correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the Necrocarnate's harvest ability has no size minimum for the creature that you kill. So, the exploit is: go boil an anthill, collect the essentia from a few hundred thousand bugs and have an effectively infinite essentia pool.

[thethird]

Note incarnum / psionics also have the lovely combination of azure talent - psycarnum infusion to regenerate power points.

[Doc_Maynot]

Or get the chicken infested flaw involved somehow instead of the ant hill. I recommend having a chicken infested commoner as a level 1 follower through leadership.

Good news, due to them being a psychic warrior (and thusly not having a psicrystal), they pretty much give up the only "dirty trick" I've ever heard about when mixing the two systems. The MoI Recharge Trick (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1187.0)

Edit:
..And now I had to hear about a new one. Not sure how the "Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours." line Azure Talent would apply to that, though.

[The Viscount]

If I understand correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the Necrocarnate's harvest ability has no size minimum for the creature that you kill. So, the exploit is: go boil an anthill, collect the essentia from a few hundred thousand bugs and have an effectively infinite essentia pool.

While this is true, keep in mind that the essentia caps on your melds mean that you don't have anything to do with arbitrarily high essentia. You can max out all your melds, and that is powerful, but it's not game-breaking.

As for the psycarnum infusion trick, it works but it requires some specialization and gives you countless PP in a trickle, which means you can't spend them on the big things.

[Chronos]

Quoth Doc_Maynot:

Good news, due to them being a psychic warrior (and thusly not having a psicrystal),...
Why wouldn't they have a psicrystal? It's a feat, not a class feature, and anyone psionic can qualify for it.

[Jeff the Green]

Why wouldn't they have a psicrystal? It's a feat, not a class feature, and anyone psionic can qualify for it.

No, it's a class feature. Every psionic class gets it, but they lose one of their normal feats. Sort of like Druids and Natural Spell or Swordsages and Adaptive Style.

[Red Fel]

Incarnum + Psionics isn't a recipe for derp, anymore than any other casting type can be cheesed into lactose intolerance. As long as you have clear guidelines with your DM about what will and will not stand, you should be fine.

In fact, Incarnum synergizes very nicely with Psionics, due to the web addition of the Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) class (which is, in my mind, even better than the Soulcaster from the book). The article also has some great psionic soulmelds - in particular, the Astral Vambraces take the adaptability of Incarnum and turn it up to 11, by giving you a soulmeld you can switch out with powers you can switch out. (We put options in your options, so you can option with your options.)

As long as you don't try to pull any infinite PP hijinks, you'll have a very comfortable combination on your hands.

[Ansem]

Incarnum is a way to play the game for the people who favour versatility in a way they can be happy spending class features on lesser equipment effects. Never played with a group before where it wasn't frowned upon in general. Basically the same reason Factotum is looked down upon. It just doesn't cut it in making a viable contribution to the group and pretty much obsoletes at midgame.
Fun for having all kinds of powers, sucks in practice.

[Chronos]

Quoth Jeff the Green:

No, it's a class feature. Every psionic class gets it, but they lose one of their normal feats. Sort of like Druids and Natural Spell or Swordsages and Adaptive Style.
Or you can also qualify for it by taking Wild/Hidden Talent, or by being an Elan or Half-Giant or the like.

[Ansem]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Red Fel]

Basically the same reason Factotum is looked down upon. It just doesn't cut it in making a viable contribution to the group and pretty much obsoletes at midgame.
Fun for having all kinds of powers, sucks in practice.

I... what? Factotum is very solidly Tier 3, and can be used to augment many different builds. In what contexts is it "looked down upon?"

Admittedly, there are some problems with MoI in general (including poor editing), and the essentia system has a limited capacity for power. Incarnate generally gets placed at Tier 4-5 on its own, true enough. But Incarnum is an incredibly useful and versatile system, and great for supporting other classes in a build.

I mean, yeah, if you choose crappy soulmelds, you'll make a crappy contribution to the party. But you can change them tomorrow, and you have complete access to the list just for a one-level dip. And there are some soulmelds that make an awesome party contribution, such as the Lammasu Mantle or Lucky Dice. If you're not able to make a party contribution as an Incarnate, you're simply not trying hard enough (or everyone else is playing a Tier 1 class, and you need to step up). There's just so much you can do.

It's no Wizard or CoDzilla, but then again, few things are.

[Shining Wrath]

I... what? Factotum is very solidly Tier 3, and can be used to augment many different builds. In what contexts is it "looked down upon?"

Admittedly, there are some problems with MoI in general (including poor editing), and the essentia system has a limited capacity for power. Incarnate generally gets placed at Tier 4-5 on its own, true enough. But Incarnum is an incredibly useful and versatile system, and great for supporting other classes in a build.

I mean, yeah, if you choose crappy soulmelds, you'll make a crappy contribution to the party. But you can change them tomorrow, and you have complete access to the list just for a one-level dip. And there are some soulmelds that make an awesome party contribution, such as the Lammasu Mantle or Lucky Dice. If you're not able to make a party contribution as an Incarnate, you're simply not trying hard enough (or everyone else is playing a Tier 1 class, and you need to step up). There's just so much you can do.

It's no Wizard or CoDzilla, but then again, few things are.

I think that's the point: some people look down upon anything that isn't optimized Tier 1. If that's your table, enjoy your game. Other tables might have fun with a Factotum who dips Totemist.

[Ansem]

I think that's the point: some people look down upon anything that isn't optimized Tier 1. If that's your table, enjoy your game. Other tables might have fun with a Factotum who dips Totemist.

You can even turn tier 5 and 6 into a proper powerhouse with the right build. (ergo, flaw of tiers)
Some tables know the game well better than others, but still as long as you have fun it doesn't matter I suppose.
Just play your Totemist/Factotum and see how well it faces against CR15 creatures, even the game was designed in the mind that people can make decent characters.

[Ssalarn]

You can even turn tier 5 and 6 into a proper powerhouse with the right build. (ergo, flaw of tiers)


Tier measures versatility and effectiveness, not dpr. You could have a base damage of 1k points per hit and still be bottom tier if you don't have ways to effectively deliver that damage or do anything else. Conversely, you could have a class that cannot deal a single point of damage and still be Tier 1 if it has the right options. It's not a flaw of the system, it's a flaw of the basic understanding of what the tiers mean. It is a fluid system though; sometimes things like feat or spell choices and archetypes can shift a class up or down a notch.

Incarnates could almost be a Tier 3 easily if they just had 3/4 BAB. Too many of their melds still rely on attack rolls to be effective and don't scale properly. There comes a point where one more d6 doesn't matter, so the bind needs to be something that is a meaningful contribution. Totemists can take that extra step into the higher tiers with the right builds, combining the innate versatility of Incarnum with the ability to actually be good at stuff. It's also a little weird that the natural attacking build has more and better AoE's than the "caster" build, but.... No one said it was perfect, just a good idea that could have used more love.

[Shining Wrath]

You can even turn tier 5 and 6 into a proper powerhouse with the right build. (ergo, flaw of tiers)
Some tables know the game well better than others, but still as long as you have fun it doesn't matter I suppose.
Just play your Totemist/Factotum and see how well it faces against CR15 creatures, even the game was designed in the mind that people can make decent characters.

I meant no offense to you, and my Totemist / Factotum might be doing his part in a party with a bard, a warmage, and a favored soul. In which case the DM shouldn't throw the nastiest thing in the book at us.

Not every campaign needs to be high-op. There's a sig line wandering around here about "Even if you can afford steak, some days you want a burger".

Some campaigns you just want to throw together some Tier 3 guys and see how they fare.

[Ssalarn]

I meant no offense to you, and my Totemist / Factotum might be doing his part in a party with a bard, a warmage, and a favored soul. In which case the DM shouldn't throw the nastiest thing in the book at us.

Not every campaign needs to be high-op. There's a sig line wandering around here about "Even if you can afford steak, some days you want a burger".

Some campaigns you just want to throw together some Tier 3 guys and see how they fare.

Almost every campaign I've ever run or played in where the entire party was truly engaged and everyone was having fun consistently involved a group full of Tier 3's. I recently ran The City of Golden Death and the party was made up of Tier 3 classes from 3pp: Death Mage (Reaper) and Mosaic Mage (Red) from Super Genius Games, a shadow caster / melee class from Kobold Publishing's "Guide to the Crossroads" whose name escapes me, and a Daevic from Dreamscarred Press. The party had a great time despite everyone's characters being limited in scope.

I've done others where the casting responsibilities in the group were divided between a Bard and an Inquisitor, or other similar combinations. I actually think that (especially during the first 12 levels of play) Tier 3 is pretty much the sweet spot for group cohesiveness, and typically group enjoyment as a result.

[Ansem]

I meant no offense to you, and my Totemist / Factotum might be doing his part in a party with a bard, a warmage, and a favored soul. In which case the DM shouldn't throw the nastiest thing in the book at us.

Not every campaign needs to be high-op. There's a sig line wandering around here about "Even if you can afford steak, some days you want a burger".

Some campaigns you just want to throw together some Tier 3 guys and see how they fare.

Still, I'd like to see what either of these classes can actually do even reasonable well to even compare to a Bard, Warmage of Favoured Soul in contribution.

[Eldest]

Still, I'd like to see what either of these classes can actually do even reasonable well to even compare to a Bard, Warmage of Favoured Soul in contribution.

Totemists maul people's faces, as well as iirc do well in the wild. Factotums depend on what you want to do with them, generally mine go for being similar to rogues in playstyle with spells for utility. However, I notice you picked a t2, t3, and t4. Odd choices.

[Vhaidara]

Factotums are really solidly T3. It's a class that is considered worthy of a dip lasting 8 levels. 8 levels as a dip. Because Cunning Surge is that good.
Also, if you've played an Elder Scrolls game, you've played a factotum. Name another class that can effectively
Turn Undead
Heal
Cast magic spells
Hit things with a sword
Hit things with a bigger sword
Hit things with a bow
Be a master thief
Talk everyone into everything

All at the same time.

[Bonzai]

Do a google search for the Psycarnum warrior. That is about as powerful as it's going to get. Essentially huge power point economy that lets you max out your buffs for cheap. If your ok with that level of optimization, then you have nothing to worry about.

[Red Fel]

Still, I'd like to see what either of these classes can actually do even reasonable well to even compare to a Bard, Warmage of Favoured Soul in contribution.

... You're seriously comparing a non-caster* to a caster, and asking what they can do in comparison?

Fine. If your metric is "Here is something that can cast spells, show me how something that can't cast spells compares with this thing which casts spells," the answer is that, nine times out of ten, there is no comparison. Spells are like that.

If, on the other hand, you're looking at the classes on their own merits, you can appreciate their abilities. "Yes," you might say, "the ability to have flight one day and telepathy the next is pretty helpful." "Indeed," you might further observe, "the ability to add your primary stat to a variety of checks, the ability to have basically every skill as a class skill, and the ability to take extra actions, could prove invaluable."

But you're not saying that. You're saying "Here are some classes which can cast spells. Your suggestions aren't nearly as good, so they must be bad."

It's hardly even worth engaging in that debate. A well-played Incarnate (or Factotum) will contribute far more than a poorly-played Bard, Warmage, Favored Soul, or even Wizard or Cleric. That's part of why tiers measure the class' abilities in a vacuum, rather than relative to the Wizard and Cleric.

* Technically, a Factotum can cast spells. But spellcasting is not its primary asset; at level 20 you have only 8 spells per day, up to level 7. Contrast that with a Bard's 28 (up to level 6), a Warmage's 59 (up to 9), or a Favored Soul's 60 (up to 9). Better yet, don't.

[Kennisiou]

... You're seriously comparing a non-caster* to a caster, and asking what they can do in comparison?

Fine. If your metric is "Here is something that can cast spells, show me how something that can't cast spells compares with this thing which casts spells," the answer is that, nine times out of ten, there is no comparison. Spells are like that.

If, on the other hand, you're looking at the classes on their own merits, you can appreciate their abilities. "Yes," you might say, "the ability to have flight one day and telepathy the next is pretty helpful." "Indeed," you might further observe, "the ability to add your primary stat to a variety of checks, the ability to have basically every skill as a class skill, and the ability to take extra actions, could prove invaluable."

But you're not saying that. You're saying "Here are some classes which can cast spells. Your suggestions aren't nearly as good, so they must be bad."

It's hardly even worth engaging in that debate. A well-played Incarnate (or Factotum) will contribute far more than a poorly-played Bard, Warmage, Favored Soul, or even Wizard or Cleric. That's part of why tiers measure the class' abilities in a vacuum, rather than relative to the Wizard and Cleric.

* Technically, a Factotum can cast spells. But spellcasting is not its primary asset; at level 20 you have only 8 spells per day, up to level 7. Contrast that with a Bard's 28 (up to level 6), a Warmage's 59 (up to 9), or a Favored Soul's 60 (up to 9). Better yet, don't.

Hell, even beyond that asking "what can a factotum do in comparison to a bard" is a silly question because it can actually do some things better, a few things worse, and most other things about as well but with different means. People list Bard and Beguiler as the top of t3, and that's definitely true, but right below that is Factotum, Psywar, and Dread Necro. All five of them even have a few random things they can do that sometimes kind of break the game, giving an argument for t2 (although most people handwave the argument away by saying "yeah, they can kinda break the game but they're not as good at it as sorc" which is fair I guess but also true of every other t2 class, sooo...). Factotum is a solid class. It has tons of build options for contributing in combat that let it make excellent use of its ability to break action economy and also its refreshing inspiration point pool that allows it to always have access to that kind of combat prowess. Iajutsu Focus factotum and Manyshot Knowledge Devotion factotum (usually also uses poison and some other sources of bonus damage/bonus on hit effects because for real when you're firing upwards of 20 arrows a round on-hit effects suddenly become much better than damage) are both excellent examples of these kinds of builds. And the best part about those builds is because the resources they use are pretty exclusive to combat, they're still able to contribute beautifully outside of combat. If you have a non-combat situation that your party's factotum cannot contribute to or even solve singlehandedly then they either built their factotum wrong or the challenge was made such that it cannot be accomplished without tier 1 casting (and even in the latter case, the factotum often has the capacity to solve those challenges as long as it is the right level to cast those spells and has them prepared). Factotum is an incredibly strong class and a solid dip and I just can't see how anyone would see otherwise. Arguments that its "everything and the kitchen sink" design is flawed, messy, and needlessly obsoletes other classes are valid, sure, as is the argument that it's poorly edited in places ("what is an encounter? When do I get my spent inspiration points back?") but those are also problems with many other classes and even whole books that are beloved by many ("what is an encounter? When do I get my maneuvers back?")

Incarnum is often in a similar boat. Yes, it has a couple of bad to mediocre classes -- soulborn being one of the worst classes in the game, for example -- but saying it has no place in any table... incarnum dips and feats are fine in the same way binder dipping/binder feats are fine for non-binder heavy builds. They work and add flexibility. Additionally, the totemist is a fine combatant. If you're at a table where a wildshape ranger/momf can contribute in combat then you're at a table where totemist will contribute in combat. As natural attackers they are only outclassed by Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Warshaper and by Druid, so being the third best at the second strongest combat style while also having access to great out of combat utility present in incarnum's skill buffs and additional movement and detection modes is really really far from bad. I mean you compared it to warmage. A warmage ONLY damages and then never as much as a good totemist will. What does totemist contribute, then? Literally more than any warmage ever will unless they prestige very well. What does it contribute in comparison to favored soul? Less assuming their spell selection is good. Much more if their spell selection is bad (much much more. Ever play with a favored soul that picks everything in the cure and inflict line? even a bad totemist will do more than that guy). How does it compare to a bard? In low op environments it will usually do better. It's way easier to make a bad bard than a bad totemist. In high op bard is better but it's bard. It's as close to t2 as it gets without actually being t2.

[Ansem]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Chronos]

{{Scrubbed}}
And what item would that be? Most of what a factotum gets, can't be emulated with any item, and the things that can be emulated, can't all be done with the same item, and often can't be emulated completely.

[Callin]

Red Fel is certainly no idiot.

The tier system isnt using builds. If that was done then the tier system would be all over the place. Its using the class in a vacuum against itself for the most part to go hey. Ok can it beat this challenge. Yes ok how. Ok can it beat this challenge. So on and so forth until its done all that it can. Or even going OK what all can it do today, tomorrow, a week from now. How versatile can it be on a day to day basis. If its swinging a sword today, can it make tons of friends tomorrow, can it defeat a trap 2 days hence.

Individual builds destroy that aspect. A general fighter isnt as versatile as a general wizard on a day to day basis.

[Harrow]

Three factors generally bring Factotum up into high tier 3. The first is the Font of Inspiration feet, which gives them a mountain of Inspiration points which regenerate every encounter. The next is that an 'encounter' is basically any time you start rolling dice. Did you know some DM's don't give XP for traps or social encounters?. Finally, many interpret the Factotum as able to use his abilities that don't require actions (in specific, his sneak attack and extra actions) multiple times at once.

This means not just two, but several standard actions, probably all in the first round of combat. This means dumping an absurd amount of sneak attack onto the first attack you make. Every combat of every day. Then, whenever you need to do stuff out of combat, you get all you IP back, so you don't have to worry about conserving them at all.

[Doc_Maynot]

Yeah, as a person who mains factotum, I spend 6 Inspiration at the beginning of every combat.
1st for the initiative roll, so I add class level and int to it, 2nd on Alter self to make myself a troglodyte, 3rd-5th for another standard action, the 6th+ on a knowledge roll(s) about the creature(s) I'm fighting. My first question: Is it immune to Sneak attacks?

[WhamBamSam]

And what item would that be? Most of what a factotum gets, can't be emulated with any item, and the things that can be emulated, can't all be done with the same item, and often can't be emulated completely.He's probably referring to the Belt of Battle. The thing is though, nothing stops a Factotum from having a Belt of Battle so that he can take extra actions while he takes extra actions, and the IP fueling Cunning Surge gets refreshed every encounter, meaning it should give more extra actions in a day than the belt does. It boggles the mind how anyone can turn up their nose at extra standard actions.

[SinsI]

Still, I'd like to see what either of these classes can actually do even reasonable well to even compare to a Bard, Warmage of Favoured Soul in contribution.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314701
Factotum gets 36 points, Incarnate 43, Totemist 51.

Bard gets 35 points and Warmage only 56. And please don't bring up Tier 2.

So all of them are going to do exceptionally well at least compared to the Warmage.

You should also take into account how easy is it to mix and match them. I.e. the Totemist can easily and painlessly grab a couple levels of Incarnate to get unlimited access to all those those Thief and Trapfinding soulmelds, without losing anything important.