How does E6 deal with high-CR monsters?

[Dorian Gray]

So, I'm planning a campaign for some point in the distant future. The issue is that it's going to be E6- and at the end, I'm planning to throw a high CR threat at them. Like, CR 15+. So my question is, what do E6 characters do with something like a Tarrasque or a Balor? Can they fight it at all? How much DM fiat is necessary?

[ryu]

So, I'm planning a campaign for some point in the distant future. The issue is that it's going to be E6- and at the end, I'm planning to throw a high CR threat at them. Like, CR 15+. So my question is, what do E6 characters do with something like a Tarrasque or a Balor? Can they fight it at all? How much DM fiat is necessary?

Depends. How optimzation loving is the party? That's going to matter alot.

[Dorian Gray]

Depends. How optimzation loving is the party? That's going to matter alot.

Let's assume playground level optimization, so fairly high.

[Zanos]

Well, first round a Balor drops blasphemy and the whole party dies, no save. If they are ever in range of either example creature they're dead if it even gets to act at all. I guess you could build a decent party of uberchargers in E6 and try to kill it that way?

[Seerow]

A Tarrasque is going to be pretty easy. E6 has access to fly/flight items, and given moderate enough optimization they can pew pew the tarrasque to death from a distance.

Other CR15+ monsters are going to be damn near impossible. A Balor for example drops in, casts blasphemy, and wins. There is nothing at all any party in an E6 world can do about it.

I honestly don't think E6 can handle monsters beyond CR12 reliably, even with good optimization. Even going that high is going to be pretty dangerous, just because the sheer damage that can be output at that level will overwhelm the party before they can react or do anything.

If you want E6 characters taking on a very high level challenge, they need foreknowledge of the specific challenge, that challenge to be the only real thing to worry about that day, and given time/tools to arrange the fight to their advantage. And at that point it's playing out more like an assassination than a real climactic battle.

[Crake]

People in this thread talking about blasphemy are forgetting that silence is a second level spell that completely negates sonic spells?

High CR fights in E6 should revolve around muggifin finding quests prior to the fight itself, to gear them up. So the players learn of his abilities, and they get things to counter it. Like a wand of silence, some kind of protection from fire stuff to survive his death throes (and the at will meteor storm), something to keep him from just teleporting away when he's on low HP. You know, the sort of thing you'd do ANYWAY if you were going to fight a balor, just... moreso, because your life depends on it that much more.

[Nirhael]

Just going to drop this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?160998-Optimize-or-Die-Playgrounders!-E6-Balor-Challenge-Thread) here.

[NichG]

At high optimization levels, CR 15 should be doable for an E6 group. As was pointed out, as long as you know what you have to deal with (Blasphemy, etc) then there are always counters and tactics you can make use of. At moderate optimization levels though, that falls apart, because the tricks needed to really pull it off against somewhat intelligent tactics are fairly high-end cheese.

[Zanos]

People in this thread talking about blasphemy are forgetting that silence is a second level spell that completely negates sonic spells?
It prevents you from getting instantly wrecked, but it also prevents your characters from actually forming a plan and restricts your spellcasters to spells with no V components or 2nd level spells with silent spell. Also forces you to cluster around and get firestormed, so I hope you're immune to fire or have a great reflex save and evasion.

Balor can still auto-drop people with no rolls at the rate of 1 per round with power word stun. Being stunned is basically being dead, and a character with 6 HD would be hard pressed to have more than 100 HP. I wouldn't count any any buffs holding up either versus at-will greater dispel magic.

I'm not really sure what a "playground level of optimization is." I don't think I could build an E6 party that had a good chance of dropping a Balor and say to myself "yeah, I would play this in a campaign and think it was totally reasonable."

[Ravens_cry]

In E6? Brave, Brave Sir Robin's tactics spring to mind. That's part of the appeal of E6 actually, at least to me. Everything is a much smaller, more human scale, with fantastical creatures still feeling like threats or even impossible foes.

[Harrow]

Equipment. If Balors are running around, that means others are around strong enough to make equipment. So, as long as your party has millions of gold worth of magic items, they should do fine. Especially if that includes things like scrolls of spells that are too high of level for the party to ever cast because puny mortals cap at caster level 6.

[NichG]

Keep in mind that E6 basically means 'as many feats as you want', so 100hp is actually not all that hard. Stack the Savage Species toughness feats with Improved Toughness, etc, and you can push your HP totals up pretty high. There's also all the quadratic feats - things like Draconic X and the like - which when you stack them all up can get a significant set of benefits going. Thats all fairly low-end.

For dealing with a Balor, you obviously need advanced notice - its not just going to be 'oh hey, there's a balor in the next room' - so being able to speak with eachother in Silence isn't an issue.

One or two uber-chargers on flying mounts, winning initiative via Nerveskitter, should probably be able to oneshot a balor. You need a lot of cat and mouse to get around obvious counters and deceptions and so on, so you get to be in the right position when initiative is rolled, but thats basically the challenge of it.

Incidentally, you can hit CL>20 in E6 by combining various obscure feats and working your way up the item-crafting chain. The start of the chain is 'Elder Giant Magic' which can get you a +3 to CL, which gets you up to the point where you can start making CL boosters.

[Flickerdart]

Not being able to gain XP doesn't technically stop you from gaining LA. A 6th level E6 character that acquires vampirism can build up quite an impressive cabinet of servants using hilarious RAW shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327984-3-5-Vampire-shenanigans).

[Starbuck_II]

Is Horizen Walker doable for Alignment spell immunity?
Really that sounds like Prc Capstone feat (one of feats you can choose upon level 6)
Example ones: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15612&whichpage=2

But that requires E10 not E6 unless DM allows Capstone feats...

I was unable to finish my entry I that prior link, but the idea was Spell sniper would stun with spell (no save but only 1 rd from Sandstorm) while others just beat Balor down.
I mean, since the Balor dies it blows up, only Sniper lives, but eh.
Highly dependent on Init (if Sniper goes before Balor)

[Crake]

It prevents you from getting instantly wrecked, but it also prevents your characters from actually forming a plan and restricts your spellcasters to spells with no V components or 2nd level spells with silent spell. Also forces you to cluster around and get firestormed, so I hope you're immune to fire or have a great reflex save and evasion.

Balor can still auto-drop people with no rolls at the rate of 1 per round with power word stun. Being stunned is basically being dead, and a character with 6 HD would be hard pressed to have more than 100 HP. I wouldn't count any any buffs holding up either versus at-will greater dispel magic.

I'm not really sure what a "playground level of optimization is." I don't think I could build an E6 party that had a good chance of dropping a Balor and say to myself "yeah, I would play this in a campaign and think it was totally reasonable."

Maggufins of silence for everyone. Maguffins of immunity to Mind affecting for everyone. Maguffins of Immunity to Fire for everyone. If he's using at will greater dispel magic to target your maguffins, he's wasting rounds not killing you. Don't forget the personal army you've all gathered with leadership firing holy cold iron arrows at him as well. He has to deal with that ontop.

[Rubik]

Not being able to gain XP doesn't technically stop you from gaining LA. A 6th level E6 character that acquires vampirism can build up quite an impressive cabinet of servants using hilarious RAW shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327984-3-5-Vampire-shenanigans).It's possible to break the 6 HD cap in E6. Multiple strains of lycanthropy, for one. And since ECL includes LA, your ECL can be well over your HD. Just get some benefits which are based on your HD, such as the phrenic template, SLAs, and SLAs converted to supernatural abilities through the Supernatural Transformation feat.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you're an evil group that fights evil you get rid of the Blasphemy problem. After that it's all about cheesing it up, like in the thread Nirhael posted.

[SiuiS]

The literal canon answer is "plot device", with the example being a Titan (high CR) being affected by a mystic ritual that binds it's power and leaves it as strong as a giant (12 CR).

Find the eight blind apostles who bear the Tetragrammaton form of the balor's name and invoke a pseudo possession; this renders the apostle possessed by a fragment of the demo lord's power but it also seals that power away from him – each such inflicted holy man reduces the balor's level by 2. If he comes out too low by the end, say the balor found a way to i bind two or three apostles by the time the party fights it, leaving him as a cr 12-16 monster. Etc.

You can also do some crazy stuff. Add a legend about an Asgardians dwarf smith; give him the racial ability of those dwarves who make artifacts, and give him incarnate 1/dwarven soulforger(?) five, allowing him to make magic weapons and armor as if he had a caster level of 15, which should combine with his other abilities to let him make not only +5 gear but also add beneficial magics to it in higher level than the 6th CL limit.

[Telok]

A sufficently large number cold iron of arrows and bolts with Bless Weapon or Align Weapon (spells cast or oils applied) should do the trick for your Balor.

Really a surprisingly large number of things can be defeated by armies of archers spread across a large area. You just need to be able to arrange the fight and be willing to accept lots of casualties.

The issue is having a single adventuring group do it or not being able to have the encounter happen on thier terms. That's when the trouble starts and people begin looking into ways to collapse, flood, burn, or smoke the entire area to death. Not that plans involving 30,000 gallons of mixed acid and alchemist fire aren't good plans, they just aren't healthy plans.


Hmmm.... Acid and flammable. Acid and flammable. Why does that remind me of kerosene and red fuming nitric acid?