Blanket ban magic?

[Akolbi]

after two sesssions one of my new players is interested in GMing. He wants to co-GM a game, and I'm totally on board for that.

the issue is that he wants to put a blanket-ban on magic.

the points he raises are valid, and one of them gets mentioned on the forum a lot. the first is that it's overpowered. I can see this. there's a reason the wizard is put on T1 and the fighter is T4(right?). I personallly think that thi can be solved with a gentlemans agreement, but that doensn't change the valdity of the point. the other reason is that it's too complicated of a system for a new GM and new players, which I disagree with, but as their first PnP experiance, I can see where he might be a little overwhelmed.

I think I talked him into using the WOP sysstem from UM. It's almost a little MORE complicated, but it solves the balance issue a bit, as the spells are typically a bit weaker. but my question is what I used against him:

how does the absense of the ENTIRE magic system change the base assumptions of the Pathfinder system, and indeed 3.X. I kind of want to see what the Plaground has to say.

[avr]

For one thing you lose much of what's interesting about the system IMO.

For another, the amount of time required to recover from a fight will skyrocket, to the point where it will be far easier to retire a character than to cure them. Just because it may be possible to go on a quest to get someone turned back to flesh after fighting a cockatrice doesn't necessarily make it worth sitting out multiple sessions to do so.

Can I recommend you try a different system entirely? Maybe one of the retro clones like ACKS.

[Talar]

Does this ban extend towards monsters? If not then some monsters just got a whole lot more powerful. And it will be a lot of work on the DM's part to account for this discrepancy. Overall I believe there are systems out there designed without magic that would be better suited for this, since 3.P is built with magic being the cornerstone of most of the system in some fashion.

[HunterOfJello]

The entire game is based around the existence of the supernatural and magical. If he wants to play a game without magic, then there are much better system out there for that. The system really falls apart without magic of any kind. D&D 3.5 really isn't one of them.

[JusticeZero]

The main issue is that that stuff is EVERYWHERE. Banning magic really means "Fighter, rogue, monk, cavalier, barbarian, gunslinger", and even those are pretty shaky with mystical abilities. There's two variant Rangers with no spells, too. Healing and repairing status effects will be problematic. The party will be falling further and further behind the curve for XP as well. The party's power level will be drifting backward as their expected WBL gear advantage fails to materialize.

Also, yes, in a different system I did in fact allow a character to be killed so that I could avoid further sitting around waiting for natural healing to tick by.

[Namfuak]

I have to agree with the others that banning magic outright kind of breaks the system. Has he considered limiting players to fixed-list casters (Duskblade, Dread Necromancer, Oracle if pathfinder, etc)?

[Coidzor]

Gutting the system like that is probably not a good idea unless you want to put in the work to make up for it somehow. If he wants to do a magic-less game then he'll probably be better served by looking further afield for another system.

If you want to limit the excesses of the higher tier classes, then something more like E6 may be of interest.

[Akolbi]

I have to agree with the others that banning magic outright kind of breaks the system. Has he considered limiting players to fixed-list casters (Duskblade, Dread Necromancer, Oracle if pathfinder, etc)?

I don't think so. like I said in the OP: he's new. his only in-game experience with magic is, at this point, that an enemy sor. was neutralized in one spell by theirs, who then casted color spray a couple of times. He actually listed the druid when he was giving examples of non-magical classes...so, he really doesn't know all of the implications of banning magic. he also hasn't seen any monsters that REQUIRE magic to kill.

It almost sounds like he wants to promote martials, because even with he very limited experience, he realizes just how powerful magic is.

[georgie_leech]

I agree with the other posters, in that a truly magic-less game would be better served by something other than D&D or Pathfinder. That said, have you considered using some variation of E6? (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?202109-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D-(with-PDFs!)) It addresses both the power discrepancy (the gap is smaller at lower levels; Wizard's don't get to just end every single encounter the way higher level ones can) and the complexity (fewer levels = fewer spells to finagle with). It's not perfect, but it's there if your heart is set on Pathfinder.

EDIT: Ninja'd, but I console myself with the inclusion of a link.

[Coidzor]

I don't think so. like I said in the OP: he's new. his only in-game experience with magic is, at this point, that an enemy sor. was neutralized in one spell by theirs, who then casted color spray a couple of times. He actually listed the druid when he was giving examples of non-magical classes...so, he really doesn't know all of the implications of banning magic. he also hasn't seen any monsters that REQUIRE magic to kill.

It almost sounds like he wants to promote martials, because even with he very limited experience, he realizes just how powerful magic is.

As much as I don't want to put up barriers to people getting into DMing, he needs to know the game a bit better than that to really do it justice with something as bound up in rules as Pathfinder. :/

Honestly I'd just say if that's his goal, you'll probably want to grab some D&D 3.5 elements and E6 it up. Even if the only martial adept you'd have would be the Warblade without access to Tome of Battle rather than the excerpts up on the WOTC site. Which is more boning up to do. Maybe just E6 and T3-T4 classes would help act as... rough guideposts.

[Metahuman1]

I don't think so. like I said in the OP: he's new. his only in-game experience with magic is, at this point, that an enemy sor. was neutralized in one spell by theirs, who then casted color spray a couple of times. He actually listed the druid when he was giving examples of non-magical classes...so, he really doesn't know all of the implications of banning magic. he also hasn't seen any monsters that REQUIRE magic to kill.

It almost sounds like he wants to promote martials, because even with he very limited experience, he realizes just how powerful magic is.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?308912-PF-DSP-Dreamscarred-Press-announces-ToB-inspired-product-II-The-Rematch


This is Path of War, a supplement from Dreamscarred Press designed to help Martial's.


Suggest he get another game or two, with this system in play, to get some practice under his belt, and then once he's done that, he run a game. That way martials get a boost and casters don't have to be blanket banned. Everyone wins.

[sonofzeal]

Alternative to blanket ban:

No taking levels in a spellcasting cast before lvl 3.

That takes a sizeable edge off both the power and complexity (since there's straight-up less spells accessible), without completely derailing anyone's character or causing unintended consequences.

[Cloud]

As has been pointed out by many people, just a blanket ban on magic doesn't work. You could though just ban tier 1 and 2 classes, that in itself helps a lot without gutting magic or supernatural abilities from the classes that need it.

[Forum Explorer]

If he wants to do a blanket ban then simply banning T1 and T2 classes will be a much better option. Not that you can't break the game with a bard, but it's harder to do by accident.

[HammeredWharf]

I've played in a game like that in 3.5 and it was fun. Of course, players have fewer options available, but there's still enough non-magical material to allow for build diversity, especially because some builds become more viable without T1 classes around. However, it's a bit tougher on the DM and not something I'd recommend to a newbie.

[Ashtagon]

I once hypothesised a virtually-no-magic campaign set in the Stone Age.

(old threads; no necromancy)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204948-Really-stupid-races-(early-hominids)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204521-Cave-Man-Story

The idea was to remove any class that uses the conventional vancian magic system (or anything intended as full-on alternate magic systems, such as psionics and warlocks and incarnum and Tome of Magic). Instead, any character could take a feat that would let him cast s specific spell a certain number of times per day. This might be a way for your new DM to go.

Note that this campaign idea assumed that the typical opponents would be other humanoids with similar magic restrictions, or animals (possibly dire animals). Anything that used standard magic would be almost unheard-of, and serious boss-monster level stuff to be used with care and played stupid to help balance the power levels.

[warmachine]

As others have pointed out, the system would break. As the guy is new, you may have to remind him that players play for different reasons. Some, like me, are tacticians and removing magic would eliminate almost all tactical options, making it not-fun for them.

[Xerlith]

If he wants to blanket ban T1 and T2, point him to some of the numerous homebrew alternatives/nerfs to casters - Beginning at Grod_The_Giant's fixed list casters, through Eldan's fix, through Spellshaping Codices (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=64.0), finally ending at more "mystical" disciplines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255468) for Tome of Battle

[RegalKain]

I can't add much that others haven't already added, so instead I'll throw my vote in for E6, or E8, or E10, the link provided a few posts back will give you a place to start, it keeps the magic pretty low and keeps it more of a gritty fantasy setting really. As I've seen very, very few systems that balance low to high level gameplay well at all.