How powerful is this bonus feat?

[Kafana]

I have a warlock in my campaign whose tribe drank the blood of a pit fiend many millenia ago. Now, he's a warlock and eventually the tribesmen either get consumed by hellfire or master it (becoming hellfire warlocks).

I'm giving out 1 custom bonus feat to every character, and I was hoping to give the warlock the ability to once per every 4 ranks of knowledge arcana per day get the 1st level hellfire blast applied to his attack. How would you rank this feat? Too weak or too powerful?

I'm giving these feats out to have the pc be distinct from other members of their class, but will 1 additional regular feat upset the balance?

[Raging_Pacifist]

I have a warlock in my campaign whose tribe drank the blood of a pit fiend many millenia ago. Now, he's a warlock and eventually the tribesmen either get consumed by hellfire or master it (becoming hellfire warlocks).

I'm giving out 1 custom bonus feat to every character, and I was hoping to give the warlock the ability to 1 per every 4 ranks of knowledge arcana get the 1st level hellfire blast. How would you rank this feat? Too weak or too powerful?

I'm giving these feats out to have the pc be distinct from other members of their class, but will 1 additional regular feat upset the balance?

I assume you mean one extra feat per 4 ranks of Know: Arcana?
It seems a little strong considering that means a decent player would give his warlock 4 ranks at first level, thus gaining 2 bonus feats, which seems a little much. Why the need for the warlock to get an extra one?

[Kafana]

Sorry, I didn't write that correctly.

What I actually meant, was that he could use the hellfire blast (+2d6 to his Eldtrich blast for 1 CON damage) a number of times per day equal to his knowledge arcana rank divided by four and rounded down.

[ryu]

Considering the easy access to extra damage means he can now focus more on warlock utility features he should be able to break into tier 3 pretty solidly. If he doesn't focus more on utility thanks to the extra slack you've given him in damage he'll still be tier 4.

[tyckspoon]

I'd actually say it's a bit weak, although that might be my allergy to taking voluntary ability damage without having any decent way to fix it. I wouldn't spend a feat on 2d6 damage once a day, but I wouldn't reject it as a bonus feat. The Con damage is the sticking point that would make me consider whether or not I really wanted to use it.. 2d6 isn't all that much for a single blast. You're likely to spend more resources fixing the damage than you'd gain from the extra damage on that one Eldritch Blast.


Depends on the power level you're trying to reach, but I'd do something like:

Your Eldritch Blast deals an additional (1/4 character level, minimum 1) damage. This damage is Hellfire damage, not resistable by any known force, yadda yadda yadda. Additionally, X times per day you may fully unleash these forces, causing your Blast to instead deal an additional (1/4 character level, minimum one) dice of damage. (Or maybe just Maximizing or Empowering the normal Eldritch Blast, that'd be cool.) This force ravages your body as it flows through you, suffer a point of Con damage.

[Kafana]

Well, I really want to have the bonus damage tie to the ranks in knowledge arcana. The idea is that his tribe is essentially half hellspawn by now, and only those knowledgeable can direct the hellfire to aid them.

So, a feat titled X (btw, what would you name it? :D ) does the following:
For every 4 ranks of knowledge arcana, rounded down, adds 1 to the DMG with each blast. Additionally, once per day per 4 ranks, you can use empower on your blast at the cost of 1 CON damage.

Is this too powerful?

[Socratov]

I'd call it Sanguine Knowledge, and I think you should model it a bit more after the mortal bane feat.

Empower and maximise aren't that strong on EB, unless you use them both for the CON cost (especially low level AB score damage is wrecking. Oh, and don't restrict access to wands of lesser vigor. I also think the static damage isn't really noticable (1 ever 4 ranks in Know: arcana mean +1 at lvl 1, +2 at lvl 4, +3 at lvl 8, at which point it has lost it's meaning altogether.

Instead, how about opening up invocations to the warlock (Odin knows they need them): Every 4th rank of Knowledge arcana (may also be 5) the warlock gets a Shape or Essence they meet the prerequisites for.

It's not overpowered (you can only use one of both categories and they are not exactly game breaking), and it frees up some choices for the warlock in question to get more (/other) invocations to throw around.

[Tommy2255]

Well, I really want to have the bonus damage tie to the ranks in knowledge arcana. The idea is that his tribe is essentially half hellspawn by now, and only those knowledgeable can direct the hellfire to aid them.

Any suggestion someone makes in terms of class level, just pretend they said (Arcana Ranks)-3, and it's the same number as long as he keeps Arcana maxed, which he almost certainly will if you're tying his special background power to it.

Personally, I'd put my vote in for the

"A number of times per day equal to ((Arcana Ranks)-3)/4 or maybe (Arcana Ranks)/4 times per day, he can sacrifice 1 con to empower an eldritch blast. The additional damage is hellfire damage (with all the properties of hellfire damage)."

proposal.

It's certainly worth a feat. I mean, it's something for nothing. The only thing it's balanced against is the bonus feats you're giving other players. But it seems balanced against other normal feats as is. If I were building a Warlock, I'd take it.

[John Longarrow]

Kafana,
Something important to remember when creating any feat that causes con damage is that it gets progressively worse for the character the higher their level.
At 1st level, they take 1 HP damage every other time they use it.
At 2nd, they take (on average) 1HP damage each time they use it.

For +2d6 damage this isn't too bad at low levels and can be considered a worthwhile trade.

At 10th, they take on average 5HP damage each time they use the feat. As it only adds 7 (average) to their damage, I don't see the character using it.

By 20th, they cause more damage to themselves then they add.

If you want to tie this to a skill AND do con damage, I'd look at what a reasonable Know(Arc) check could be at each level. I wouldn't tie it directly to ranks as that makes it less desirable.

at 1st level, the user should pull off a +6 to Know(Arcane) with 4 Ranks and a +2 Int.
At 5th, they should be pulling between a +10 and a +13 depending on if they want to use skill focus( Know Arcane).
By 10th, they should have 13 ranks and something to give a +5 to the skill (or more) for a +20 to their check.

If the character does a DC 15 Know(Arcane) check to add +d6 damage and an extra d6 per 5 that you beat the check it would be much more likely to be used. At 1st level this means they can get between 1 to 3 extra d6 damage, depending on how good their check is.
At 5th, they should almost ALWAYS get +1d6 and can get upto +4d6
By 10th, they are getting +2d6 and can pull upto +6d6

This would allow them to scale the damage as they level and would keep the damage they take from CON damage low enough to be offset by the bonus to damage. Yes, it also means that if they really go crazy on upping their Know(Arcane) check they will get a massive amount of extra damage at higher levels. This is offset by being focused and by taking the CON damage.

I'd also have them loose this ability if they lose their CON score or become immune to CON damage.

[HighWater]

Math showing your feat gets progressively worse with advancing levels
Listen to this, it is indeed a problem!


If you want to tie this to a skill AND do con damage, I'd look at what a reasonable Know(Arc) check could be at each level. I wouldn't tie it directly to ranks as that makes it less desirable.
I disagree on this point, because Knowledge checks are too easy to boost to very painful heights. Add to that that Knowledge Arcana is a very good skill to have and you're just asking for someone going the full metal jacket on boosting that skill, making the output of your feat wildly unpredictable (and thus hard to balance). Before you know it you are patching housefeats with houserules and it's only downhill from there.
Knowledge rank dependent is awesome, because ranks are much reliable when it comes to constant growth.

Feat neats a tweak though, that allows it to grow with the user. Making it empowered or maximised gives it a much longer period of applicability. To follow John's reasoning:
Con-1 at level one is average 1 damage, Con-1 at level 20 is average 20 hp-damage. At low levels Con damage is hard to heal, while at higher levels the chunk taken out of your HP makes you vulnerable, which needs to be offset by damage (that has no immunity). It needs to scale by a factor other than times/day if each use has a separate cost. Keep in mind that Con also affects the Fortitude save a bit, and that people die of hitting Con=0 (which can be a problem if the warlock fights a con-damaging creature).

You need to think about what kind of an exchange rate is acceptable.
Do you want a 1:1 ratio, 1:2, 1:3.5? A d6 does on average 3,5 damage. Make sure you construct something that does more damage when the damage suffered also increases. Especially since high-level critters tend to have bucket-loads of hp.

You can tie it to Ranks if you want, especially since this means the warlock can multiclass while still improving this ability. At level 1, max ranks will be 4, at 2 it'll be 5, 3->6 etc, so it's perfectly predictable when the next damage boost becomes available to the Warlock. Perhaps add it in jumps (like sneak attack), that's more exciting than a +1 per level boost.



I'd also have them loose this ability if they lose their CON score or become immune to CON damage.
Good catch, must make sure the feat can't be max/minned to the point where no Min applies.

[jjcrpntr]

I could see this being cool and useful at low levels when you need an oh**** button to burn something down.

At higher levels the 2d6 wouldn't be that big of a deal. Maybe have it evolve where for every point of con dmg he gets x d6 added to his blast? I like the idea though.

[arkangel111]

I love the Warlock!! Also check my sig for a PF converted warlock. I second the extra invocations based on his arcana ranks. the dmg is nice but only at the low levels. The con dmg just hurts too much. Feel free to use some of the new invocations in my homebrew PF conversion or the increased rate of dmg that is more like the rogue SA progression. Ultimately the increase in dmg is only gonna help at the low levels, where an extra invocation could help at all levels. Plus the con dmg hurts too much, your pretty much tieing him into one of the 3 ways to mitigate that dmg, 2 involve multiclassing and the other is money and actions, which means he'll likely go into one that saves him actions, gold, and hp.

Here is an ability I had based off the bane ability, it increased the dmg while not necessarily letting them use it every round without consequences. Perhaps tieing it to his arcana ranks instead of cha would be apprpriate.


Soul Blast - The Warlock has honed his skills with his blast to great effect 1+ Cha mod /day the Warlock may increases his damage as a free action 1/rnd by +2d6. This blast only works against those with a Soul (soulless undead, constructs, etc. do not gain this extra damage) however if shaped it only effects the first attack. This does not count as a shape or essence, and does not increase the caster level. The Warlock infuses a portion of his own soul into such a blast and as a result gains the fatigued condition, but only for the following round. If a Warlock uses this ability in two consecutive rounds, or while fatigued from another source he instead becomes exhausted as normal, but must wait twice as long before becoming fatigued (2 hours) and cannot use this ability again until rested. Due to the magical nature of this blast an Warlock can never be immune to this ability, even if he is immune to either condition through some other means. This ability increases to 3d6 at 16th level, and can be used against any creature, not just those with souls.

[ericgrau]

So about 7 extra damage. I'd say 4 is about right, less at level 1, more at higher level. But since it's limited use per day and he doesn't even get 3 uses until level 9 it should work out fine.

From levels 1-2 it might be a bit too strong but at the same time con damage takes a long time to heal at those levels, so it's probably fine.

Against multiple targets it might be a little strong too, but by the time time he gets those abilities he'll be losing a bit of hp himself from the con damage since the damage doesn't scale but con hp does. So still fine. Due to the existence of multi-target abilities I wouldn't scale up the damage at high level though, at least not for only 1 feat.

In high optimization it may even be a little weak for a feat. The only time I see it as overpowered is in the hands of level 1-3 monsters, not PCs, doing major damage to low level PCs without worrying about how fast they'll heal the con damage later. Especially if 2 or more focus fire.

[John Longarrow]

HighWater
Using a skill check instead of ranks means you do have some variance in how good the feat is each time its used.
Using ranks means you ALWAYS have the same benefit.

Either works. I've a preference for use of skill checks so you can pull off that "BIG BLAST". It mostly depends on how much randomness you want in your game.

[malonkey1]

HighWater
Using a skill check instead of ranks means you do have some variance in how good the feat is each time its used.
Using ranks means you ALWAYS have the same benefit.

Either works. I've a preference for use of skill checks so you can pull off that "BIG BLAST". It mostly depends on how much randomness you want in your game.

And how prepared you are for skill pimping. I could see somebody taking Item Familiar and pouring 23 ranks into it, Skill Focus, any other Knowledge-boosting feats, using Ancient Knowledge and other Knowledge-buffing spells, using Tome of Clear Thought +5 and a headband of intellect +6, casting Fox's Cunning, and so on, to get +80 (or more!) on the check. On an estimate of DC 10 per 1d6, that's an 8-10d6 extra damage.

Unless a hard limit is imposed, skill checks will often grossly outstrip skill ranks.

[John Longarrow]

And how prepared you are for skill pimping. I could see somebody taking Item Familiar and pouring 23 ranks into it, Skill Focus, any other Knowledge-boosting feats, using Ancient Knowledge and other Knowledge-buffing spells, using Tome of Clear Thought +5 and a headband of intellect +6, casting Fox's Cunning, and so on, to get +80 (or more!) on the check. On an estimate of DC 10 per 1d6, that's an 8-10d6 extra damage.

Unless a hard limit is imposed, skill checks will often grossly outstrip skill ranks.

Yes, there are ways to abuse a feat like this if its purely skill based. If the player is pumping all of their resources into doing so it makes sense. This is similar to the maneuvers in ToB that are skill based.
The advantage is someone who is trying to abuse it does need to put a lot of resources into it. If you ONLY use ranks, you have the same problem you get with Bards where they are actually very bad at performing but have the minimum ranks to pull off what they want.

[Ravens_cry]

Hmm, maybe make it so they can do it a number of times that way *without* the ability damage based on that check (Knowledge rank /4). That kind of fits the 'knowledge is power' theme.
People, the OP said 'ranks'. Skill focus and items don't add ranks.

[Urpriest]

If this is only available to NPCs from a certain tribe, and they get it for free rather than having to spend a feat on it, then why is it a feat in the first place? Why not make it an extraordinary ability?

[malonkey1]

If this is only available to NPCs from a certain tribe, and they get it for free rather than having to spend a feat on it, then why is it a feat in the first place? Why not make it an extraordinary ability?

Oh, make it a race! This kind of ability is flavorful and situational enough to be the centerpiece for an LA +0 race. Maybe just give the ability to Vasharan Humans (BoVD, I believe)

[chaos_redefined]

My suggestion would be to make it similar to Knowledge Devotion, but have it always use the one skill (Knowledge Arcana), and make it add +Xd6 instead of +X to hit and +X to damage.

[Seerow]

My suggestion would be to make it similar to Knowledge Devotion, but have it always use the one skill (Knowledge Arcana), and make it add +Xd6 instead of +X to hit and +X to damage.

This would be the best way to do it IMO.