Final encounter - too tough/too weak?

[Balor01]

Hey guys,

After about three months of campaigning, my party finally reached their final goal - a large snakefolk temple they will probably raid next session. I want to make this fight a memorable one with a good chance of PC death but I do not want to go too far. Party is NOT optimized.

So. Here is PC party + accompanying NPCs.

Lvl 4 Cleric
Lvl 4 Psion (basically a competent blaster)
Lvl 4 WoP Monk (excellent AC, poor dmg)
Lvl 4 Scout (well its a Scout that knows how to use skirmish.)

NPC companions:
Lvl 5 Cleric that only heals and buffs (has some nice buffs prepared)
Lvl 6 druid (can support party with Wildshape, his companion, summons and battlefield control like Sleet storm)
Lvl 3 Scout (Skittish fella that likes ranged attacks)
Unicorn (CR3, nice dmg, can heal)

… party is to come to a temple and I assume eventually they will be spotted by temple workers/guards. They should encounter three waves of enemies, starting with a bunch of mooks:

First wave:

Common lizardfolk (6) (AC 17)
Common lizardfolk with armor (10) (AC 22)
Lvl 3 Cleric with Beads of Fireball 1 (single guy)

Second Wave:

Four Refluffed hound archons
All have breastplates on, two also have Cloaks of protection +1

Third wave:

Single refluffed babau, no upgrades

Waves are planned to be 10 rounds apart.

What do you guys think? Too much? Too little?
thanks

[Kol Korran]

The encounter with the hound archons may be tough if the party doesn't have means to bypass their DR. If they do it's quite ok. Make full use of the teleport power to get to divide and threaten the more squishy PCs/ NPCs. This will make the battle feel more dangerous.

The Babau alone is somewhat weak, especially as it's main damage output relies on SA. It has formidable defenses (The DR and resistances), but I dont think he can face of an 8 characters party. You need something that can affect many people at once, and not just 1-2 who happen to be in the front.

I see a few ways to upgrade this:
1) Add enemies, perhaps minions. Something like reflavored dretches or the like. Or perhaps 1- of the archons as body guards, but perhaps with an added class level of something appropriate (Barbarain comes to mind, possibly with better base stats as well)

2) Change the babau to something different, something that can engage many at once. For example a refluffed dragon, something with either many attacks or abilities that can affect at least 3-4 enemies at once. It needs to be a danger to the ENTIRE party... Or perhaps A Hydra? Maybe it's the result of several priests joining together in an unholy union sort of stuff. (I suggest to check my sig, the compendium, and look under the hydra entry. On second though- the Nagas might also fit the bill, though as spell casters primarily)

3) Battle in 2-3 parts: Basically they fight this guy, and once it is nearly vanquished, something else replaces it- either it transforms to it, summons something or the like. An instant second tough battle. with a small bump in the CR, but a very different tactics needed to kill it. Again- transforming into a hydra or something might do nicely. Or transforming into a youngling dragon?

I hope this works. A lone Babau is just not up to the task.

Good luck with your game! I suggest to perhaps put some inspiring music in the last battles. I especially like the 10 hours tracks of various Two steps from Hell tracks. (Unitied we stand, divided we fall, Archangel, To Glory, Heart of Courage) are my fvorites.

[Balor01]

The encounter with the hound archons may be tough if the party doesn't have means to bypass their DR. If they do it's quite ok. Make full use of the teleport power to get to divide and threaten the more squishy PCs/ NPCs. This will make the battle feel more dangerous.
Perhaps I reduce Archons to three? I think they will not be able to bypass DR except for Psion.


1) Add enemies, perhaps minions. Something like reflavored dretches or the like. Or perhaps 1- of the archons as body guards, but perhaps with an added class level of something appropriate (Barbarain comes to mind, possibly with better base stats as well)
More enemies? This surprises me? To which "wave" should they be added?


2) Change the babau to something different, something that can engage many at once. For example a refluffed dragon, something with either many attacks or abilities that can affect at least 3-4 enemies at once. It needs to be a danger to the ENTIRE party... Or perhaps A Hydra? Maybe it's the result of several priests joining together in an unholy union sort of stuff. (I suggest to check my sig, the compendium, and look under the hydra entry. On second though- the Nagas might also fit the bill, though as spell casters primarily)
I find Naga suggestion just amazing. Are you sure it is not too powerful? I am not optimiser myself ... I'm average or even sub-average when it comes to powergaming.


3) Battle in 2-3 parts: Basically they fight this guy, and once it is nearly vanquished, something else replaces it- either it transforms to it, summons something or the like. An instant second tough battle. with a small bump in the CR, but a very different tactics needed to kill it. Again- transforming into a hydra or something might do nicely. Or transforming into a youngling dragon?
So no running from the temple toward PCs? Just instant respawn? Interesting and radical.

[John Longarrow]

10 kobold slingers.

Each stays about 10-20 feet from any other. They all stick about 50 feet away from the PCs and keep the range open.
Each carries 30 bullets (gets 1 attack per round).

They don't do a lot of damage and will burn actions to get rid of. They keep pressure on the party. They (optionally) get replaced if they drop to quickly.

This should let you keep the caster types occupied and allow the 3 waves to build up without giving the party time to rest.

I'd also swap out the refluffed archons for something more... scaley. A pair of 6 headed hydras that take a couple rounds to get into battle will really get the party worried.

Then 4 lizardmen carrying tower shields come from behind to block escape.

2 rounds after the hydras hit the Babau teleports into the mix.

[Kol Korran]

Perhaps I reduce Archons to three? I think they will not be able to bypass DR except for Psion.

You can easily deal with the DR by exchanging it for some other defense. Some suggestions:
- Partial or full concealment: Gives them a bit of a "can't touch me!" kind of feel. I don't know what you're refluffing the archons as, but I bet you can add this easily. But concealment, while an excellent defense, can make a battle swing a few ways. If statistics prove nice, then you miss 20 or 50 percents of attacks. But if they go more extreme than the battle is either extremley easy or extremely hard. With so many foes It can even out at the end, but fighting against concealment can get very frustrating for players at times.
- Recoil effect: Whenever the archons get hit, the attacker is affected by some effect (Such as stun, daze, shaken or such). Allow a save, but it shouldn't be an easy one.
- Regeneration/ fast healing of some sort, a bit like a troll, but I suggest to come with more ingenious ways to stop it than fire/ acid (Perhap holy water?) Since they can teleport at will, they can rotate where 2 attack up front and two snipe with bows or such and regenerate fro mafar, and then switch when the front liners are wounded. The party may realize they have to engage all 4 of them at once.
- Recoil damage: A bit like the recoil effect, but whenever the archon is hit, it's attacker may take... 1d6? 1d8 damage from some source (Depending on the flavor)- maybe their blood spew acid or fire (Allow a reflex save). Or maybe they transmit their pain back to the attacker (Allow a fort save) or some such.



More enemies? This surprises me? To which "wave" should they be added?
This I meant mostly for the sole Babau. Action economy means he got 1 action against 8 actions of the party. They will CREAM him. This is a common problem with boss battles. Plus, he will only be able to threaten 1-2 characters (And not that much, since he can't use SA on his own). In final BBEG battles you want the battle to threaten each and every person in the party, keep them on edge, feel like they are not doing enough.

I just remembered another trick for big boss battles- "The endless horde of minions". Basically, for whatever reason fits your story (The lizardfolk come rushing from nearby places, or the boss opened a portal t osomewhere, or it's god sends help or whatever) minions just keep on coming. Yes, the party can take actions to kill them, but more will come. and more. and more. and more. a few more every 1-2 rounds. They only stop if the BBEG is defeated. While they are relatively weaker, their numbers should count for something, and they should come from all sides, so the usually squishier party members get threatened as well. Add ranged minions. If the battle goes on, throw in a bit of a tougher minion (Caster or elite warrior, or perhaps something else all together). The party can lessen the burden of minions somewhat, but it keeps escalating. If they don't put some force to stop them, they will soon be overwhelmed.

And that's the sensation you're aiming at- being overwhlemed. Makes for a good panicked final battle.
For this to work the Final Boss needs to have a high AC (Hit about a third of the time by your best hitter) decent plus hp, and good saves. It needn't be a major damage dealer, but have enough special powers to hamper the PCs actions to pose a unique and different from the hordes.


I find Naga suggestion just amazing. Are you sure it is not too powerful? I am not optimiser myself ... I'm average or even sub-average when it comes to powergaming. The naga I suggested was from the remake I made for it from my compendium. The idea there fits mostly a long campaign, less a single combat.

About the Nagas from the 3.5 SRD: I think the water Naga can work nicely, especially if it fights with minions. I ssume it's somewhat of the leader of the temple? If so, as A leader, you can have most of her spells be battle control oriented spells and buffs, with maybe 1-2 damage spells. The naga casts a few self buff spells before the combat, and then tries to avoid combat as much as it can, getting her minions between her and the characters, and buffing them greatly "Kill them my minions!" sort of stuff, while sniping with spells from the back.
When does she close in?
Either when she needs to take down aa particular threat (Like the psion with his/her energy blasts), when most of the minions are dead, when most of her spells are gone, when the party manages to corner her, or idealy- if the party roleplays it so that they goad her.

The idea is that she mostly affects the battlefield and her minions, but when up and close she can get quite nasty. Her fairly low hp mean she has to rely on NOT fighting as much as she can. Ideally you get 4 people or so fighting her, and 4 people or so trying to keep off the minions (Preferably the NPCs, this is the PCs moment after all).

Ideas for spells knows (All from the SRD:
0- Mage hand (To use potions or scrolls or wands, if you give them to her), acid splash, message (To give orders to her minions), Daze (an actual valid tactic here with the level of PCs), ghsot sound, read magic and detect magic.

1- Mage armor (Cause without it it has pitiful armor) Shield (Same reason), Magic missile (Her main ranged attack spell 1d4+1 times 4 characters. I suggest to have her ready action for anyone to cast a spell, and then hit thme with at least 2 missiles), Grease (battle control), Enlarge person (If your minions are humanoid- "Arise my champion!") Burning hands (Or fangs, or whatever... if at least 3 get close enough. 5d4 Area damage. A sort of watered down close range version of fireball)

2- Resist energy (Makes her more resistant to the psion's attacks, though she may need to cast few spells for different energies), Web (Affects a mass area), Minor image (Used creatively it can really baffle the characters- More reinforcements? A portal to the abyss is opening? THe floor under them is caving? What the helll was the roar and shadow outside?)

3- Haste (Minions on speed!), Vampiric touch (It's only way to heal. Attacking and healing 3d6.



So no running from the temple toward PCs? Just instant respawn? Interesting and radical.I don;t quite understand what ou mean by "no running from the temple toward PCs?". My idea is that the battle takes place in several woth the big boss. Although... the way you planned the entire temple allready have a few stages. It's an idea taken mostly from video games, but hey- it works nicely. I used versions of it on a few occasions. The main concept is to face increasing in power versions of the BBEG (or some other threat) that requires quite different tactics.

The problem with such a tactic is that this usually tax the PCs abilities, resources and such to the max, mostly since they don't anticipate further stages, and so they try to go quite all out at the first or second stage. Another problem is that you need to top yourself over and again. You need to adjuciate this kind of a final encounter very well, or else you can easily turn this into a TPK at the final battle, which kinds of bums everyone out. (It nearly happened the first time I tried it, the players were really worried. They miraculrily pulled a quadruple crit, or they would all be dead the next 1-2 rounds :smalleek:) You sound on your early stages in your DMin career, so I suggest either to let it go (I really think the other ideas could work quite well), or maybe plan it with a more experienced DM. I could help if you want, just know I'm not online that often, and I don't know when the game is due. SO that is a concern.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Would love to hear how this all turned out! :smallsmile:

[Balor01]

Hey Kol Korran,

Since you helped me so much I decided to write you a recap of this final encounter.

Party reached the temple full strenght and scouted it. They spotted most of mooks but were unable to pinpoint others. In fact, tougher opponents were also not very visually different from mooks.

So they have set up an ambush, getting ready to blast the targets as they come. They have sent out Monk with his immense AC out as bait and first wave of lizardfolk tried to get him. Pretty soon as lizardfolk mooks entered the forest, druid has cast sleet storm on them, disabling most o them for four rounds. (I have ruled that mosnters/NPCS/PCs in sleet storm roam in random directions if they suceed Balance check). So they were hacking away at those outside the Sleet storm effect. But already at this point it showed that "ammo conservation" was not a priority. Psion blaster was already wasting his spells on mooks, killing them instantly.

First wave of mooks also had a leader with beads of fireball. Seeing his minions being owned in a miniature typhoon he ran back toward the temple. Refluffed archons (I said they were lizardfolk, had greatswords but got armored like samurai) noticed the cleric running out of the forest and have teleported to him, then he explained what happened.

Unicorn killed some mooks as did wildshaped druid and druids bear companion.

Then "samurai" teleported all around unicorn. Assessing the situation as exceptionally dire, he teleported home. (got AOOd pretty bad). Then druid and her companion tried to hurt them as well as scout. Well ... DR10/cold iron has proven too much for them as they barely scrached lizardfolk samurai. These guys were also not dealing much damage (2d6+3), but were rather untouchable. Then druid sleet stormed them.

And they teleported out just to run into the fray again. Blaster was nearing "low battery" status and was still blasting them, managed to exceed Spell resistance of these lizardfolk in some cases and even having some of them fail saves. But that only dropped two of the four on about 50% hp. Then lizardfolk cleric threw in a bead of fireball and got both party clerics, druid and her companion. Did not kill them, but hp was shaved off.

Most mooks were killed, druid was into negatives, then party concentrated its fire on lizardfolk cleric and killed him. But samurai remained as unpenetrateable as at the start. Dealing relatively small dmg, but with ability to teleport themselves.

(i did not even include babau as i saw how the battle was going)

Seiing that samurai will not fall, party decided to flee. Monk activated his nimbus of light and lizardfolk, being CE picked as their top priority to take him down. Then he ran into the forest and they followed him, having the same speed.

Being fiercely hacked by lizardfolk and even being on the brink of death, druid and her companion have fled into the forest. As did the blaster - and got lost.

Two clerics and a scout looted things a bit then got away as fast as they could. This part of party eventually rached coast and civilisation. Blaster got lost in the forest, but eventually found his way (high Survival and Eternal rations) and eventually had reached coast of Great forest too, unharmed.

Monk ran away from two lizardfolk that hounded him and I made rolls public this time. Each time cycle past there would be a Fort Save or character would take nonleathal damage. As he would fall into negatives, he would become unconcious. DC increased with each time cycle ( I did not really know weather this should be a minute of running or ten or half an hour). Anyway, wounded samurai failed a few saves, got decent amount of nonleathal dmg and fell to the ground). The other samourai however, was lucky. He even rolled 20 on one of the saves, took little damage and this chase ended with monk falling into negatives and being coup-de-graced by a lizardfolk samurai.


So yeah - this is how it turned out. With a rather grim fact being revealed at the end by a player who played cleric: Each PC had 5 or 6 Action Points left. They did not remember to use any.

[Kol Korran]

Thanks for sharing! How did the players feel about it all? How did you feel about it all?

I did warn about the DR making the "samurai" very tough, and the alternatives to changing that. Hmmmm...

If the players and you are interested, you can turn this into something great- Now the players have something to avenge! And that's a great motivations. You can have the enemy survivors (Especially the Samurai who coup de graced the blaster!) level up or become more important, as bosses/ mini bosses.

Whatever the players tried to stop now unfolds- the enemies have succeeded, or partly succeeded, but it may not be too late- the party may be able to stop them in another way?

I am sorry if my advice proved poorly. I was judging this on the experience fro ma few parties I played with. I apologize if this has led to a bad experience. :smallfrown:

Good luck in the future!

[Balor01]

Eeh in my opinion death is part of adventurers life. I did feel bad for monk, because he came up with a really good solution, but died for it. Still, being a Monk with WoP, he has all sort of contacts on other sides ... so ressurection is definitely a possibility. It was a great lesson for me too. I was sure they will exceed that DR, but blaster got all thrifty on mooks ... As cleric later said, "you learn as you lose and not when you win".

Anyway your input was very very appreciated. :)