Savage Species Type Pyramid

[WhamBamSam]

The type pyramid in Savage Species (page 142) was intended to simplify determining the type of template stack creatures, but from where I'm standing it seems to be complicating the exact way that RAW shakes out. So I have a few questions about it.

1. Does the pyramid have any RAW authority at all?

It's hard to tell whether the pyramid is a specific or general rule. If it's the latter, then the things its supposed to be governing are specific, and hence trump it. I'm also not sure how the primary source rules shake out here.

Assuming it does work more or less the way it's supposed to...

2. Does it apply to anything that changes creature type other than templates?

The heading and section that the type pyramid appear in suggest that it is only concerned with templates, but the language in the section about the top of the pyramid (Constructs, Outsiders, and Undead) is stronger than that.


Once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a template, it cannot become something else. Once a creature stops being a native to the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one.

So what happens when a type change comes about through something that isn't a template, especially if the creature is already, say, undead. In particular, how would something like the following examples work out?

1. A Dragonwrought Kobold who becomes a Dracolich is still a kobold, and hence still qualifies for Dragonwrought, which says "your type is dragon, rather than humanoid." What is her type and why?
a) Undead. The type pyramid says that an undead creature cannot become something else.
b) Dragon. The type pyramid does not govern the change of type from the Dragonwrought feat.
c) Undead. Dragonwrought's specification of "rather than humanoid" means that the feat does not affect the type of kobolds who would not otherwise be humanoid.
d) Undead and Dragon. The type pyramid does not stop Dragonwrought from making the kobold a dragon, but the feat will only strip away the humanoid type, so she retains the undead type as well.
e) Other. Explain.

2. A Necropolitan wizard becomes a 10th level Alienist. What is his type and why?
a) Undead. The type pyramid says that an undead creature cannot become something else.
b) Outsider. The type pyramid does not govern the change of type from Alien Transcendence.
c) Other. Explain.

3. Suppose the Necropolitan from the previous question instead took 10 levels of Fleshwarper. Does the fact that aberration is lower on the type pyramid change anything?

[Fouredged Sword]

I always just apply things in order of application. IF a template says it can be applied to creature type A and changes it to creature type B, it does what it says on the tin. Players apply things in order of operation, and in situations of ambiguity or odd corner cases where things are applied in VERY odd orders, then they apply the pyramid.

Dragonwraught
Humanoid - > Dragon
Dracolich
Dragon - > Undead

You become a dragon and then undead, leaving you as an undead creature. Note, You are still a kobold, so you always qualify for dragonwraught even if you change your type somehow, say and inherited template changing your type from humanoid.

The issue arises in situations like awakening a kobold skeleton. It is level 1, and can take a level 1 feat. It qualifies for dragonwraught, as it is typed Undead (kobold), but it shouldn't be allowed to take it, as it makes little sense for an undead creature to suddenly revive as a dragon.

[OldTrees1]

If I read it correctly: It was intended as a primary source general rule.

However: I believe it was rendered obsolete by 3.5.

[Fouredged Sword]

As for the alienist, you would stay undead. Once you become undead, you stay that way unless something specifically changes you into something else.

[Vhaidara]

I actually second the call on alienist, using Vecna as my precedence. Became a god, kept undead type.

[Urpriest]

I actually second the call on alienist, using Vecna as my precedence. Became a god, kept undead type.

I don't think that's true. Most of the "Undead" gods in Deities and Demigods are Outsiders with Undead traits.

[Vhaidara]

I don't think there are other undead gods. There are gods of undeath, but Vecna was undead and became a god.

[Urpriest]

I don't think there are other undead gods. There are gods of undeath, but Vecna was undead and became a god.

Huh. Having checked, it does indeed look like Vecna is specifically Undead, and not an Outsider-with-Undead-traits like Osiris (a god who became Undead).

That said, all that is obviated by 3.5 IMO. While any 3.0->3.5 translation is ambiguous, I like to think that 3.5 worked hard to universalize the creature types and that the type pyramid is not consistent with 3.5 design.

[Vhaidara]

Also, Warforged are valid for application of Half-Dragon. Since Half-Dragon says "any living creature", and warforged are Living Constructs.

[WhamBamSam]

I always just apply things in order of application. IF a template says it can be applied to creature type A and changes it to creature type B, it does what it says on the tin. Players apply things in order of operation, and in situations of ambiguity or odd corner cases where things are applied in VERY odd orders, then they apply the pyramid.

Dragonwraught
Humanoid - > Dragon
Dracolich
Dragon - > Undead

You become a dragon and then undead, leaving you as an undead creature. Note, You are still a kobold, so you always qualify for dragonwraught even if you change your type somehow, say and inherited template changing your type from humanoid.

The issue arises in situations like awakening a kobold skeleton. It is level 1, and can take a level 1 feat. It qualifies for dragonwraught, as it is typed Undead (kobold), but it shouldn't be allowed to take it, as it makes little sense for an undead creature to suddenly revive as a dragon.That's a sensible way to rule it, but RAW is not always sensible. Dragonwrought doesn't say your type changes to dragon. It says your type is dragon. I'm just looking for a definitive answer by strict RAW.

Being a dragon is generally better, because the type is just absolutely dripping with cheese, but there are a few nice things that would arise if it were undead instead. For instance, Vampiric Dragon Dragonwrought Kobold Wu Jen 3/Totemist 2/Soulcaster 10 is pretty much the best (well, least bad) vampire build I can come up with, but is rendered non-functional if it doesn't qualify for Undead Meldshaper.


If I read it correctly: It was intended as a primary source general rule.

However: I believe it was rendered obsolete by 3.5.
Huh. Having checked, it does indeed look like Vecna is specifically Undead, and not an Outsider-with-Undead-traits like Osiris (a god who became Undead).

That said, all that is obviated by 3.5 IMO. While any 3.0->3.5 translation is ambiguous, I like to think that 3.5 worked hard to universalize the creature types and that the type pyramid is not consistent with 3.5 design.Was there something in a 3.5 book that established new rules for template stacking/type changes? Any particular source to cite or thing that strongly indicates that the rule is no longer in effect?


As for the alienist, you would stay undead. Once you become undead, you stay that way unless something specifically changes you into something else.Alienist is certainly trying to specifically change the type from whatever it was when you were an Alienist 9 to Outsider. Or do you mean that it would have to specify that it could change an undead to a non-undead?

[LOTRfan]

Also, Warforged are valid for application of Half-Dragon. Since Half-Dragon says "any living creature", and warforged are Living Constructs.

In the ending days of the Last War, House Cannith's forges were constantly churning out new and improved versions of their constructs. Warforged with casings of adamantine and mithral were made alongside new models like the Raptors and Steel Krakens, but one project was kept secret from all sides of the conflict....

In the heart of their deepest forges, the artificers and magewrights kept several infant dragons that they had stolen from the continent of Argonessen. Once they were old enough, they were butchered and harvested, their limbs and organs integrated into the shells of common warforged. Wyrmforged, they were nicknamed, equal parts bred and built for absolute destruction.

The Wyrmforged came too late in the war, however, and a mere few weeks after the first batch were created Cyre fell. In the chaos that followed, the Wyrmforged made their escape. Those who knew of their existence have never made the information public, but it is said that draconic half-golems are harassing farmers in the Eldeen Reaches.

[Vhaidara]

Was that you writing, or is this actually canon?

[Chronos]

I would rule that the type pyramid is absolute, except in cases where a template specifically changes the higher type to the lower type. Hence, for instance, an incarnate construct is still humanoid, because it specifically says that it applies to constructs, but a half-dragon warforged is still a construct, because half-dragon applies to a "living creature", not specifically to living constructs.

This still doesn't help for types on the same level of the pyramid, though. My favorite poser is a gestalt character who takes the 20th level of Dread Necromancer simultaneously with the 10th level of Green Star Adept.

[LOTRfan]

Was that you writing, or is this actually canon?

My own. I don't think any of the Eberron books ever explored the possibility of Half-Dragon warforged. They did mention undead warforged, though - the Woeforged.

[Urpriest]

Was there something in a 3.5 book that established new rules for template stacking/type changes? Any particular source to cite or thing that strongly indicates that the rule is no longer in effect?

I'll fully acknowledge that there was nothing explicit. I don't see this as "it existed in 3.0, a new version was published in 3.5, therefore you must use the 3.5 one", but rather as "the rules say that 3.0 content can be used, but only after being adjusted by the DM to fit in with 3.5, and this doesn't fit in".

Basically, 3.0 had types that behaved very differently. Animals got skill points that weren't HD-based, Constructs just straight-up didn't get skill points or feats, other types got feats at weird rates...it was kind of a mess all-round. 3.5 standardized a lot of that, and in my mind that (and the new concept of acquired and inherited templates) got rid of a lot of the reason for the type pyramid in the first place. I view "get rid of the type pyramid, it's an abomination" as just one of the "minor adjustments" needed to use Savage Species in a 3.5 game.

[HunterOfJello]

The Savage Species pyramid wasn't 100% valid in 3e from what I've heard, and it doesn't hold up in 3.5 anymore. Each template and class has its own description of what things are and can be.

I believe that 3.5 also added the augmented subtype which you should add to any creature whose type changes. A dragon that becomes a Dracolich would be classified as Undead (Augmented Dragon). In this way, a dragonwrought kobold turned dracolich would still be counted as a dragon and not lose previous class and/or feat benefits. I've taken part in some discussion about that augmented subtype and it is a very interesting idea in the game.

[Curmudgeon]

Was there something in a 3.5 book that established new rules for template stacking/type changes? Any particular source to cite or thing that strongly indicates that the rule is no longer in effect?
This is the rule which establishes Monster Manual as the primary source for templates:
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. If you follow the rules in Monster Manual, there are templates which change creature type. Those always change the type, because MM says so, and it's the primary source. The older rule in Savage Species which disagrees with this is defunct because the MM rules are always correct in such disagreements.

[Bullet06320]

I don't think there are other undead gods. There are gods of undeath, but Vecna was undead and became a god.

Velsharoon from Forgotten Realms, was a lich then became a God

[Chronos]

Atropals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal), like all abominations, are to be treated as rank 0 deities if the divine rules are in play, and they're undead.

[WhamBamSam]

The Savage Species pyramid wasn't 100% valid in 3e from what I've heard, and it doesn't hold up in 3.5 anymore. Each template and class has its own description of what things are and can be.

I believe that 3.5 also added the augmented subtype which you should add to any creature whose type changes. A dragon that becomes a Dracolich would be classified as Undead (Augmented Dragon). In this way, a dragonwrought kobold turned dracolich would still be counted as a dragon and not lose previous class and/or feat benefits. I've taken part in some discussion about that augmented subtype and it is a very interesting idea in the game.Nothing I've found has that much indication over what the Augmented Subtype actually does - ie, whether an Undead (Augmented Dragon) would actually qualify for things as a dragon, or whether he could use the superior dragon forms when casting Alter Self. Or conversely, if the type is actually Dragon (Augmented Undead), because of the feat constantly reinforcing that "your type is dragon," then can he take Undead forms when using Metamorphasis, or qualify for a feat like Undead Meldshaper?


This is the rule which establishes Monster Manual as the primary source for templates: If you follow the rules in Monster Manual, there are templates which change creature type. Those always change the type, because MM says so, and it's the primary source. The older rule in Savage Species which disagrees with this is defunct because the MM rules are always correct in such disagreements.So is the type pyramid is wholly defunct then? If so, then that presumably means that the Necropolitan Alienist would be an Outsider, but I'm still not sure about the Dragonwrought Dracolich. Care to weigh in?

[Fouredged Sword]

Looking into it, the augmented subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype) does something very specific.

You get the TRAITS of your new type and the FEATURES of your original type.

A dragon that turns into an UNDEAD (augmented dragon) has the following.

Dragon Features
12-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

Undead Traits.
No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

I think, reading it, you could count as ether undead or dragon for prereqs, though I am not sure if I am right about that.

[Curmudgeon]

Looking into it, the augmented subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype) does something very specific.

You get the TRAITS of your new type and the FEATURES of your original type.
Well, no.
A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type. What really happens is you follow all the steps when you apply any template changes, which usually end up with this stated effect if the type changes. But rather being a recipe which dictates all the type-related changes, the augmented subtype is just a bookkeeping carryover to note that some changes have been made.