Human fighter build

[Shadowscale]

I had wanted in a sense to build a single class fighter maybe going into a prestiege later on however.

With all these levels I wanted to try a light armor build (maybe a mitheral breastplate) and a shortsword and longsword two weapon fighter.

Dungeon crasher and other good alternate class features are okay. Just need a bunch of good feats and fighter bonus feats to take.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Off the top of my head, you'll probably also want the Zhentrim Fighter substitution levels, from the Champions of Valor web enhancement. Gives you some nice Intimidate stuff. You can also use the Cityscape web enhancement to swap Ride for Tumble, which fits better with your light-armor Dex fighter.

Obligatory handbook link (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1119336).

[OldTrees1]

Thug[UA/SRD] trades your medium armor proficiency and your 1st Ftr feat for +2 skill points per level and a better skill list. It is great when combined with Zhentarim Soldier since you will have the skill points to spare to keep Diplomacy nearly maxed despite it only being a class skill at 3rd, 5th and 9th levels.

[Shadowscale]

Off the top of my head, you'll probably also want the Zhentrim Fighter substitution levels, from the Champions of Valor web enhancement. Gives you some nice Intimidate stuff. You can also use the Cityscape web enhancement to swap Ride for Tumble, which fits better with your light-armor Dex fighter.

Obligatory handbook link (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1119336).

Alrighty, thanks for the help those look like good acfs.
Any suggestions for a bunch of good feats?

[OldTrees1]

Alrighty, thanks for the help those look like good acfs.
Any suggestions for a bunch of good feats?

Most of the Ftr feats I like are for a different combat style. However there is some advise I can give:
1) Gloves of the Balanced Hand[MIC] are an item that replicates ITWF (so do not take ITWF)
2) Combat Reflexes and Evasive Reflexes[ToB] are both nice. Together they create a nice defense. This works well with Karmic Strike[CW] and Robilar's Gambit[PHBII]
3) TWF works best with extra damage per attack. Sneak Attack is a good way to get this. +2d6 Sneak Attack can be gained with Martial Study[ToB] -> Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance). Staggering Strike[CAdv] inflicts a nasty effect if you hit with a Sneak Attack.

[Vizzerdrix]

Troll Blooded will net you Regeneration 1. Handy to have. You'll need toughness or Improved Toughness to get it.

Aberrant dragonmark into Mark of Madness into Mark of Xoriat will net you a decent SLA (Shield is always handy), Lesser Confusion as an SLA and DR 5/obscure material that would benefit the party to have on hand.

Human fighter-1 with two flaws can get all those goodies at level 1.

[Krazzman]

Isn't there a Feat or ACF called Hit and Run tactics or similar in Drow of the Underdark?

This could fit too.
If you can afford it Combat Focus feats might suite you. I found them rather cool sounding... in a low-op group they might fit in.
The first is basically a Ragelike Willsave bonus. But the other feats aren't that great. Basically you take it only for Vigor (Fast Healing 2 or 4) and Awareness (learning Hit points of Enemies and allies that are close to you and maybe gaining blindsight).
But it would come online rather late (Level 12).

If you want to stay fighter and maybe add a dash of Draconic fun maybe try to go into Dragon Disciple.
Take the regional feat in pgtf for spontaneous casting (I think magical training is the name of the feat) of a few cantrips.
But this might be too magical for you.

Else Incarnum Feats and the Martial Stance/Strike feats are also good depending on your build.

[Zombulian]

Isn't there a Feat or ACF called Hit and Run tactics or similar in Drow of the Underdark?

This could fit too.
If you can afford it Combat Focus feats might suite you. I found them rather cool sounding... in a low-op group they might fit in.
The first is basically a Ragelike Willsave bonus. But the other feats aren't that great. Basically you take it only for Vigor (Fast Healing 2 or 4) and Awareness (learning Hit points of Enemies and allies that are close to you and maybe gaining blindsight).
But it would come online rather late (Level 12).

If you want to stay fighter and maybe add a dash of Draconic fun maybe try to go into Dragon Disciple.
Take the regional feat in pgtf for spontaneous casting (I think magical training is the name of the feat) of a few cantrips.
But this might be too magical for you.

Else Incarnum Feats and the Martial Stance/Strike feats are also good depending on your build.

Yeah I was going to Recommend the Drow Hit and Run Fighter. They lose heavy armor and tower shield proficiency so you may not be able to stack it with Thug unfortunately, but if you plan on having high Dex it may be worth it, as the ability it gives is a +2 bonus on Initiative checks, and whenever you attack someone who's Flat-footed, you add your Dex to damage.

Edit: Pg. 57 Drow of the Underdark

[Togo]

Justicar (complete warrior) is quite a good prestige class for dual-wielding melee types.

Fighter two-weapon fighting is hard to do well. You need to spend a fair few feats on just getting two weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting and so on. So save feats where you can. Several ways have been mentioned.

Bonus damage is also very important - you get a lot of attacks, so any bonus damage adds to a lot of attacks.

For these reasons, a lot of people try to combine fighter with other classes - for example trading two levels of fighter for two levels of ranger gives you more skills, favoured enemy bonus, and track as a bonus feat, while still giving the two weapon fighting feat you'd probably have taken with fighter.

[John Longarrow]

Shadowscale,
An issue you will run into mechanically is that TWF requires high dex to have, but most builds try to use STR based weapons to hit/damage.
Unless you have a very unique build, you will find that getting your 2nd/3rd attack off handed will be hard to do while keeping strength usable.

One way around this is a one level dip in Sword Sage to grab the stance Child of Shadows and the Feat Shadow Hand. While in a shadow stance, you get to add Dex to damage instead of Strength.
This lets you avoid the issue of high STR and DEX.

Personally, I'd also grab Weapon Finesse and dual wield short swords. This way you can maximize your DEX instead of trying to buff both STR and DEX. You'll need a DEX of 19 to grab the 3rd off hand attack.


NOTE: For what you are looking for, Ranger may be a better way to build your character. Using straight fighter, levels -1 to 12 you get 7 bonus feats. 3 of those get sucked into the TWF tree, so you only get 4 bonus feats over a Ranger. After Ranger 11 you can go fighter without running into issues for TWF.

[zingbobco000]

Thug[UA/SRD] trades your medium armor proficiency and your 1st Ftr feat for +2 skill points per level and a better skill list. It is great when combined with Zhentarim Soldier since you will have the skill points to spare to keep Diplomacy nearly maxed despite it only being a class skill at 3rd, 5th and 9th levels.

If someone wanted nice skill points medium armor and nice skill points they would have chosen ranger.


Most of the Ftr feats I like are for a different combat style. However there is some advise I can give:
1) Gloves of the Balanced Hand[MIC] are an item that replicates ITWF (so do not take ITWF)
2) Combat Reflexes and Evasive Reflexes[ToB] are both nice. Together they create a nice defense. This works well with Karmic Strike[CW] and Robilar's Gambit[PHBII]
3) TWF works best with extra damage per attack. Sneak Attack is a good way to get this. +2d6 Sneak Attack can be gained with Martial Study[ToB] -> Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance). Staggering Strike[CAdv] inflicts a nasty effect if you hit with a Sneak Attack.

You can get the 2d6 from street fighter.


Isn't there a Feat or ACF called Hit and Run tactics or similar in Drow of the Underdark?

This could fit too.
If you can afford it Combat Focus feats might suite you. I found them rather cool sounding... in a low-op group they might fit in.
The first is basically a Ragelike Willsave bonus. But the other feats aren't that great. Basically you take it only for Vigor (Fast Healing 2 or 4) and Awareness (learning Hit points of Enemies and allies that are close to you and maybe gaining blindsight).
But it would come online rather late (Level 12).

If you want to stay fighter and maybe add a dash of Draconic fun maybe try to go into Dragon Disciple.
Take the regional feat in pgtf for spontaneous casting (I think magical training is the name of the feat) of a few cantrips.
But this might be too magical for you.

Else Incarnum Feats and the Martial Stance/Strike feats are also good depending on your build.

Take two levels of bard and 10 levels of dragon disciple.

[OldTrees1]

If someone wanted nice skill points medium armor and nice skill points they would have chosen ranger.
Unless they wanted feats first and skill points second. (1 feat => +2 skill points/level is a nice trade considering it is better than an extant feat) Still, Ranger is a good alternative to consider.




You can get the 2d6 from street fighter.
It takes 3 levels of the prestige class to get +1d6 Sneak Attack and does not improve it in the remaining 2 levels of the prestige class.
I think a Rogue dip/Swordsage dip/Martial Stance feat is a cheaper/more efficient way to get sneak attack. (The last method adds Hide? as a class skill)

[zingbobco000]

It takes 3 levels of the prestige class to get +1d6 Sneak Attack and does not improve it in the remaining 2 levels of the prestige class. I think a Rogue dip/Swordsage dip/Martial Stance feat is a cheaper/more efficient way to get sneak attack. (The last method adds Hide? as a class skill)

Sure, good point.


Unless they wanted feats first and skill points second. (1 feat => +2 skill points/level is a nice trade considering it is better than an extant feat) Still, Ranger is a good alternative to consider.

I guess, but as always ranger is a good choice.

[Vogonjeltz]

The downside of ranger is that it nets 2 fewer hp, and the twf isn't actually a feat, so it won't function if your fight inevitably wears medium or heavy armor.

Taking 2 levels of ranger is also like choosing track and twf as the first two feats, except as noted the combat style won't function wearing the better armor a fighter is likely to want.

[Shadowscale]

I was thinking of maybe taking over-sized two weapon fighting and dual wielding longswords. I have no problem with prestige classes , but I wanted the core of the character to be fighter. I didn't know a two weapon fighter would be worse off then a ranger, I assumed ranger wasn't that great at combat to begin with. Would the greater focus and specialization feats help?

[Zombulian]

I was thinking of maybe taking over-sized two weapon fighting and dual wielding longswords. I have no problem with prestige classes , but I wanted the core of the character to be fighter. I didn't know a two weapon fighter would be worse off then a ranger, I assumed ranger wasn't that great at combat to begin with. Would the greater focus and specialization feats help?

Hahahahahahaha no.
No no no.
Almost none of the explicitly Fighter feats are any good, and Weapon Focus and Specialization even in their basic iterations are generally considered traps.

[OldTrees1]

I was thinking of maybe taking over-sized two weapon fighting and dual wielding longswords. I have no problem with prestige classes , but I wanted the core of the character to be fighter. I didn't know a two weapon fighter would be worse off then a ranger, I assumed ranger wasn't that great at combat to begin with. Would the greater focus and specialization feats help?

Fighter is still a good core but it takes a bit of background into its class feature(bonus feats). There are plenty of good Fighter bonus feats but most of the obvious fighter bonus feats are traps. In general avoid Fighter bonus feats that only change bonuses.

Consider the following Ftr 6
Ftr bonus feats:
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting (from item)
Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes, Double Hit(Miniatures Handbook),

Other combat feats:
Knock-down(SRD/Deities & Demigods)
Evasive Reflexes(Tome of Battle), Karmic Strike(Complete Warrior)


Summary: (Requires Str 15, Dex 15, Int 13)
Any attack against a standing foe that deals 10+ damage grants a trip attack and a potential additional attack.
Full Attack includes 2 attacks with each weapon.
Attacks of Opportunity include 1 attack from each weapon (for the cost of only 1 AoO).
Instead of an AoO you can take a 5ft step
Anyone hitting you provokes an AoO.

Notice how only one feat(TWF) was picked for the bonuses it changed.

[Val666]

Mmmm... why dont you try a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Dervish build? It is a very funny light armored warrior which focuses on dex. Those levels will end up in level 15 so for your last levels you can grab 5 levels of warblade for extra Int synergy (swashbuckler 3 gives int to damage) and some cool maneuvers. With hit and run fighter you already add dex to damage when flanking, so it is Strength,Dexterity and Intelligence to damage.

[Xerlith]

Before we set off on our epic quest for builds, could you tell us your party's composition and what power level you usually play at?
Say, if the wizard whips out Hastes, Solid Fogs and the like or throws Fireballs left and right? Does the Cleric frontline with Divine Metamagic or does he stay back and heal?

Taking more than 4, sometimes 6 (Dungeoncrasher) Fighter levels is often a bad idea, since you cannot compete even with mildly-optimised party members.
If you want your character to be two-weapon fighting and be effective while doing so, you need some ways of gaining additional damage sources, since you cannot really use Power Attack.

Also, I'd like to point out that you'd probably be a bit better off going with two short swords instead of long/short combination.

An obligatory off-handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook)

And on to a prospective build, assuming you don't go with a pure fighter (don't).

Dex/Wis focused
Ranger2/Swordsage1/Hit-And-Run Fighter1/Scout3/Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian1/Ranger+12

H&R Fighter gives you +2 to Initiative and Dex-to-DMG against flatfooted enemies,

Swordsage dip grants Child of Shadow stance (20% concealment while moving) and some maneuver goodness (Grab Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wind Stride, two remaining are up to you). With Shadow Blade feat you get additional dex-to-dmg with Shadow Hand weapons (hence shortswords). And a +1 to Initiative.

Ranger gives you, well, Ranger stuff.
ACFs to consider: Arcane Hunter, Moon-Warded Ranger (Wis to AC, DR/-, Immunity to mind-affecting). The second ACF replaces Combat Styles, but that's okay, since you should be rocking Two-Weapon Fighting and Gloves of the Balanced Hand instead.

Scout is there to qualify for Swift Hunter. With it, you'll end up with +5d6 Skirmish damage from Scout/Ranger levels.
And you can skirmish vs favored enemies, meaning your best bet is to pick undead, elementals, constructs and plants to not worry about immunities.

Barbarian with stacked ACFs gives you an additional attack while Frenzied and the ability to full-attack after a charge (meaning you get to proc your Skirmish damage! And when you can't charge, you have your Sudden Leap maneuver).

Feats to make this work:
Human: Weapon Finesse
1st: Two-Weapon Fighting (duh)
3rd: Shadow Blade
6th: Swift Hunter
9th: Improved Skirmish (An additional 2d6 damage per attack? Yes please!)


Items: Well, two weapons, a light armor and Gloves of the Balanced Hand if you decide to go that way (namely decide to go with Moon-Warded ranger). And it'd be better if you did.

Books used:
Drow of the Underdark: Hit-and-Run Fighter
Tome of Battle: Swordsage
Complete Adventurer: Scout, Improved Skirmish, Swift Hunter
Unearthed Arcana: Whirling Frenzy
Complete Champion: Spirit Lion Totem
Dragon Mag: Moon-Warded Ranger

[Vogonjeltz]

Hahahahahahaha no.
No no no.
Almost none of the explicitly Fighter feats are any good, and Weapon Focus and Specialization even in their basic iterations are generally considered traps.

Weapon focus line effectively negates the negatives for twf. If the fighter is, for example, dual wielding light maces (perhaps in preparation for taking the lightning mace fighting style) then weapon focus will provide a +2 gain on to hit.

Human: combat reflexes
1st: two weapon fighting
Fighter 1 bonus: weapon focus light mace
Fighter 2 bonus: lightning mace

Compare this to ranger 2. The fighter has more hp, better attack values, better armor, and more attacks.

The ranger has more skill points, and that's all.

[OldTrees1]

Weapon focus line effectively negates the negatives for twf. If the fighter is, for example, dual wielding light maces (perhaps in preparation for taking the lightning mace fighting style) then weapon focus will provide a +2 gain on to hit.

Human: combat reflexes
1st: two weapon fighting
Fighter 1 bonus: weapon focus light mace
Fighter 2 bonus: lightning mace

Compare this to ranger 2. The fighter has more hp, better attack values, better armor, and more attacks.

The ranger has more skill points, and that's all.

Except +1atk at the cost of 1 feat is a terrible trade. When going TWF, I would rather suffer -2 attack & get to counter attack (Karmic Strike + Combat Reflexes) multiple times per round.


@Xerlith
That build looks like it could benefit from +1 Barbarian(Improved Trip without 13Int), +1 Swordsage(Higher level stance) and -2 Ranger(ranger does not gain much from 13 levels rather than 11).

[Xerlith]

Weapon focus line effectively negates the negatives for twf. If the fighter is, for example, dual wielding light maces (perhaps in preparation for taking the lightning mace fighting style) then weapon focus will provide a +2 gain on to hit.

Human: combat reflexes
1st: two weapon fighting
Fighter 1 bonus: weapon focus light mace
Fighter 2 bonus: lightning mace

Compare this to ranger 2. The fighter has more hp, better attack values, better armor, and more attacks.

The ranger has more skill points, and that's all.

To elaborate on what OldTrees said
Attack bonus is painfully easy to optimize, you know. What Ranger gains over Fighter is also better skill list, halfway to a choice of spells and ability to use wands without UMD, Animal Companion can (although later) also pick the same feats. What is a net gain of the Fighter? A feat and two HP.
Also, Weapon Focus is bad. Like terribly, horribly bad. I can see it justfied in a build only when it's taken to qualify for a PrC.

That said, a Lightning Mace build is woefully suboptimal, barring the known Lightning Kukri Warblade trick with Blood in the Water.



@Xerlith
That build looks like it could benefit from +1 Barbarian(Improved Trip without 13Int), +1 Swordsage(Higher level stance) and -2 Ranger(ranger does not gain much from 13 levels rather than 11).


The build's got 14 levels of Ranger. I did it so he gains full Skirmish dice progression (17 levels), as well as 4th level Ranger spells (admittably, they come into play at 20th level only).

Improved Trip is useful only at lower levels, since if not optimized towards it (and with low STR to boot), it pales as soon as you start fighting creatures with more than two legs. I considered two Swordsage levels, second being at around 8th level, to grab Assassin's Stance. But I couldn't really justify it, since there wouldn't be enough opportunities to benefit from Sneak Attack AND skirmish in combat.
Instead, the Child of Shadow stance gives a good enough benefit to stay relevant for a long time, since miss chance never goes out of season.

[OldTrees1]

The build's got 14 levels of Ranger. I did it so he gains full Skirmish dice progression (17 levels), as well as 4th level Ranger spells (admittably, they come into play at 20th level only).

Improved Trip is useful only at lower levels, since if not optimized towards it (and with low STR to boot), it pales as soon as you start fighting creatures with more than two legs. I considered two Swordsage levels, second being at around 8th level, to grab Assassin's Stance. But I couldn't really justify it, since there wouldn't be enough opportunities to benefit from Sneak Attack AND skirmish in combat.
Instead, the Child of Shadow stance gives a good enough benefit to stay relevant for a long time, since miss chance never goes out of season.

Oh 14 makes more sense.

Improved Trip is for the doubled attacks via Knock-down but you are right that it requires good Str.

At medium levels Child of Shadow would be replaced with a Minor Cloak of Displacement. The higher level stance does not need to be Assassin's Stance. It could be as simple as Step of the Dancing Moth for ignoring difficult terrain or Hearing the Air for blindsense or even Dance of the Spider for spiderclimb.

[Xerlith]

Yeah, I thought about Dancing Moth, but ultimately figured at that level there'd be some way of flight available. It all really comes down to a higher-level maneuver and stance against the 4th level spell slot and 1d6 skirmish die. I guess both ways work. Where do you think it'd be best taken?

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, I thought about Dancing Moth, but ultimately figured at that level there'd be some way of flight available. It all really comes down to a higher-level maneuver and stance against the 4th level spell slot and 1d6 skirmish die. I guess both ways work. Where do you think it'd be best taken?

Well if the 2nd level is taken at 12th/16th/or 20th you would be capped at 4th/5th/or 6th level maneuvers and stances.

6th seems like a dud.
5th has Hearing the Air and Dancing Mongoose
4th has Dance of the Spider[3rd] and Mind Strike(Wisdom damage)

Yeah a 2nd level of swordsage is looking more lackluster provided you bump the 1st level up to 5th level so you can get Shadow Jaunt(Teleportation) and Cloak of Deception(Invisiblity)

[Xerlith]

This could be done, but the feat progression gets thrown out the window. You get Shadow Blade too late (it's either this or Swift Hunter), so... Well, I am conflicted a bit. Let's see what the OP says.

[Shadowscale]

The build doesn't have to be too highly optimized I just know fighters are subpar, but I thought with these ACFS and feats a fairly decent two weapon fighting fighter could be made. I was kind of inspired by Roy from the order of the stick comic itself, so I was wanting a single class fighter.
using dungeon crashing, thug, and Zhentrim Fighter cityscape skill swap troll blooded and going into justicar maybe for all 10 levels.

Any help making this a little better? I know fighters are bad, but I love their simplicity and archtypes make them better. o.o


This could be done, but the feat progression gets thrown out the window. You get Shadow Blade too late (it's either this or Swift Hunter), so... Well, I am conflicted a bit. Let's see what the OP says.

I was also in favor of picking up the two sneak attack die, I think someone said there was a way with tomb of battle feats?

[Xerlith]

The best way of gaining those dice is dipping Swordsage at 7th and 8th level. You get to choose the Assassin's Stance at 8th, which gives you +2d6 Sneak Attack dice, along with some other goodies.

A single-classed fighter is really, really, really bad choice. Even most generous build don't venture further than 9th level (which is when the Zhentarim Fighter caps).
The build I presented looks complex, but in fact is pretty simple in actual play - you run up to things, hit them, roll damage. Of course if you want, there are those nifty (sadly low-level) maneuvers to do something cool from time to time.
The miss chance and AC generated by this is only an additional bonus.

A way for a Fighter, pure Fighter, to somehow be competent with two weapons would be...

Well, basically a Fighter with at least three Tome of Battle feats (which is why Swordsage dip is so crucial - and straight up better -here).
Also remember that with 2+Int skillpoints you won't be able to contribute outside combat. Almost at all.

Dungeoncrasher, being THE ACF for fighters requires you to have decent STR score. Which is, sadly, MADdening with a TWF-er, since they need to pump up their Dex as well. So... Well. Yeah. It wouldn't really work with a two-bladed combo.

We COULD make it work with a Greatsword+Armor Spikes, but just barely.

To sum up - if this was a 2H fighter, we could salvage him. Sadly, with the Fighter being the Fighter, there isn't much to work with.

Or is there?

Thug Sneak Attack Fighter gains full BAB, some more skills, so much needed damage bonus (Sneak Attack), but loses the bonus feats.
With Zhentarim Fighter sub-levels you can demoralize as a swift action beginning at 9th level.
There is this Dead Levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) web enhancement.
And for my last trick... Imperious Command feat! Also, Craven.

You still can't full attack and move, though. So that sucks.

Nah. Don't go pure fighter.

[OldTrees1]

The build doesn't have to be too highly optimized I just know fighters are subpar, but I thought with these ACFS and feats a fairly decent two weapon fighting fighter could be made. I was kind of inspired by Roy from the order of the stick comic itself, so I was wanting a single class fighter.
using dungeon crashing, thug, and Zhentrim Fighter cityscape skill swap troll blooded and going into justicar maybe for all 10 levels.

Any help making this a little better? I know fighters are bad, but I love their simplicity and archtypes make them better. o.o



I was also in favor of picking up the two sneak attack die, I think someone said there was a way with tomb of battle feats?

Fighter can be made to work (though it is underrated on this forum) although I would avoid the Justicar prestige class.

What level range with this be for?
What is the stat generation method? Is it point buy if so how many points?

Sidenote: Even if you use Fighter as the core of the build, it does benefit from a couple of 1-2 level dips in other classes.

[Shadowscale]

Fighter can be made to work (though it is underrated on this forum) although I would avoid the Justicar prestige class.

What level range with this be for?
What is the stat generation method? Is it point buy if so how many points?

standard point by around a level 12 campaign. Any better prestige class then? It doesn't seem too mad to me to have high dex and str, but maybe that's just me?

[Xerlith]

standard point by around a level 12 campaign. Any better prestige class then? It doesn't seem too mad to me to have high dex and str, but maybe that's just me?

High CON is a must for a frontliner, for HPs and spells that drain it.
Higher INT to offset low skill points per level.
WIS for salvaging your abysmal Will save.
CHA if you want to use Zhentarim Fighter

[Shadowscale]

High CON is a must for a frontliner, for HPs and spells that drain it.
Higher INT to offset low skill points per level.
WIS for salvaging your abysmal Will save.
CHA if you want to use Zhentarim Fighter

Con could be a little lower if dex is high but not much, wisdom would have to be a dump unfortunately. Charisma would only have to be average and int might be a little important for feats and skills. I see what you're saying.

[Xerlith]

Yeah. It's always a shame when a cool idea doesn't work how we want it, but sadly this is the face of D&D. More or less. We could go with a working, viable and mainly fighter build, but some dips are inevitable.
If it's a flavor thing, you can easily run an Urban Ranger and call yourself a fighter - with some tricks on the side.

Anyway - take a look at the handbook I linked earlier.

At the very least, a Fighter6/Swordsage2/Some PrC would be quite capable, with Craven taken at 9th level and whatnot.

EDIT: Although...

Fighter6/swordsage2/Divine Crusader (War)1/Knight of the Raven3/Ordained Champion5 makes an amusing build. The Holy Warrior feat helps with damage a bit.
And Travel Devotion. Travel Devotion is good.
Finish it up with Ruby Knight Vindicator... Or something similar.

Also, yes, I like Swordsage dips.

[OldTrees1]

standard point by around a level 12 campaign.

High level is good and bad news. Good news in that you have more wealth. Bad news in that you have more holes to patch with wealth.

Standard point buy: Dex 14[6pts] + Str 15[8pts] + Cha 14[6pts]+ Con 11[3pts] + Int 10[2pts] + Wis 8[0pts]
Ability Boosts: +Dex, +Cha, +Dex
Pre item stats: Str15, Con11, Dex16, Int10, Wis8, Cha15

Human Barbarian(Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) 2 / Fighter(Thug, Z Soldier) 10

You have 6-8 general feats(depending on if flaws are allowed), 5 Ftr bonus feats plus Improved Trip and Skill Focus(Intimidate)

1st: Trollblooded, Combat Reflexes
2nd: Improved Trip
3rd: Knock-down
4th: Two Weapon Fighting[Ftr]
5th: Skill Focus(Intimidate)[Ftr]
6th: Imperious Command, Martial Study(Cloak of Deception)[Ftr]
8th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting[Ftr]
9th: Double Hit
10th: Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance)[Ftr]
12th: Staggering Strike, Robilar's Gambit[Ftr]

You have 5 skill points per level. (Keep Intimidate maxed, your skill list expands for levels 5, 7 and 11)

You end up with several tricks.
Regeneration
10+damage Hits grant free trip attacks
Trips grant free attacks
+2d6 Sneak Attack
All sneak attacks also [B]stagger the foe
4 Attacks of Opportunity per round.
Each AoO includes both weapons.
Attacking you grants an AoO regardless of whether they hit
Swift action: Demoralize (Cower 1 round, Shaken 1 round) [Fearsome armor would allow you to do this as Standard, Move and Swift actions in a turn]
1/encounter Swift action: Become invisible for 1 round

So now you just need gear to cover you weaker defenses (Cloak of Resistance, Periapt of Wisdom and Mind blank for Will Saves) and increased mobility(Flight)

[Xerlith]

Minor nitpick - you don't qualify for Knockdown with 14 strength. Other than that, I like this build. Should fare well in a low-mid OP group. Two-weapon lockdown seems fun.

Needs some way of boosting will save though.

[OldTrees1]

Minor nitpick - you don't qualify for Knockdown with 14 strength. Other than that, I like this build. Should fare well in a low-mid OP group. Two-weapon lockdown seems fun.

Needs some way of boosting will save though.

Still editing. Thanks for the catch.
Edit complete. I moved TWF to 4th level since it is less useful at low levels.

I regret I could not add Daze/Nausea lock to the build but the OP's weapon choice was not Orc Dire Flail/Morning stars. heh heh.

Sidenote: Higher OP groups would use a multitude of +1 fleshgrinding weapons in this build in order to continuously stagger an entire army. Mid-Low OP groups would avoid fleshgrinding.

Sidenote 2: Staggering strike on an AoO from Robilar's gambit interrupts and prevents Full Attacks.

[Zombulian]

Wait a minute, have any of us actually recommended the Jack B Quick build? Because I'm fairly sure that's full Fighter.

[Xerlith]

Wait a minute, have any of us actually recommended the Jack B Quick build? Because I'm fairly sure that's full Fighter.

While it's good against medium-sized enemies, anything with reach pretty much destroys him. Needs some way of mobility (Cleric +Travel Devotion dip? Swordsage/Warblade dip?) or PsyWar dip (Expansion!)

That said... Crap, forgot about this build.

[OldTrees1]

Wait a minute, have any of us actually recommended the Jack B Quick build? Because I'm fairly sure that's full Fighter.

I was recommending a toned down but more versatile version(lockdown capabilities too) of Jack that also used the weapons the OP wanted (instead of High Sword Low Axe)

[Vogonjeltz]

Except +1atk at the cost of 1 feat is a terrible trade. When going TWF, I would rather suffer -2 attack & get to counter attack (Karmic Strike + Combat Reflexes) multiple times per round.

It may be one of the lowest value feats, but it's still a pre-requisite for the tree, all of which apply to all the attacks the lightning mace fighter will be doing.

Here's a breakdown of the attack ranges, assuming a standard elite array (15/13/12/14/10/8 for the fighter, 15/13/12/10/14/8 for the ranger) and both subjects use light maces.

@2nd

Fighter: +3/+3, 5%/5% chance of extra attack at +3; deals 1d6 + 2/1d6 + 1
Ranger: +2/+2; deals 1d6 + 2/1d6 + 1

@4th (both put 1 point increase to str for a +3 mod; Fighter gets Weapon Spec)

Fighter: +6/+6, 5%/5% chance of extra attack at +6; deals 1d6 + 5/1d6 + 3
Ranger: +5/+5; deals 1d6 + 3/1d6 + 1

@6th: (Fighter requires a +4 dex item to acquire imp. twf)

Fighter: +8/+3/+8/+3, 5%/5% chance of extra attack at +8 and 5%/5% chance of extra attack at +3; deals 1d6 + 5/1d6 + 5/1d6 + 3/1d6 + 3
Ranger: +7/+2/+7/+2; deals 1d6 + 3/1d6 + 3/1d6 + 1/1d6 + 1

@8th: (Fighter acquires melee weapon mastery, assume ability point into str)

Fighter: +10/+5/+10/+5, 5%/5% chance of extra attack at +10 and 5%/5% chance of extra attack at +5; deals 1d6 + 7/1d6 + 7/1d6 + 5/1d6 + 5
Ranger: +9/+4/+9/+4; deals 1d6 + 3/1d6 + 3/1d6 + 1/1d6 + 1

@10th: (Fighter has acquired both gwf and imp. crit)

Fighter: +13/+8/+13/+8, 10%/10% chance of extra attack at +13, 10%/10% chance of extra attack at +8; deals 1d6 + 7/1d6 + 7/1d6 + 5/1d6 + 5
Ranger: +11/+6/+11/+6; deals 1d6 + 3/1d6 + 3/1d6 + 1/1d6 + 1

@12th: (Fighter acquires gtwf and gws; assume extra ability point going into str for +4 mod and a +6 dex item for the gtwf)

Fighter: +16/+11/+6/+16/+11/+6, 10%/10% chance of extra attack at +16, 10%/10% chance of extra attack at +11, 10%/10% chance of extra attack at +6; deals 1d6 + 10/1d6 + 10/1d6 + 10/1d6 + 8/1d6 + 8/1d6 + 8
Ranger: +14/+9/+4/+14/+9/+4; 1d6 + 4/1d6 + 4/1d6 + 4/1d6 + 2/1d6 + 2/1d6 + 2

By this point probability of getting at least one bonus attack (at least one crit) is: 1-.9^6 (1-.531141) or 46%
with 7 attacks (at 20th) it increases to 52%

@14th: (Fighter acquires Crushing strike, +1 to hit per attack that hits)

Because the Fighter has access to the Weapon Spec tree, he will always do more damage and hit more often than a Ranger trying to use the same means. (Lone exception: Ranger's favored enemy, the ranger will deal 2 points more damage to them on hits, however the chance of hitting remains 10% less, and 60% less on one attack with weapon supremacy. The Ranger also suffers a large penalty if grappled by their opponent, whereas the Fighter remains combat capable.

On top of being better at dealing damage, the Fighter (courtesy of medium and heavy armor proficiency) has better defensive capabilities in melee (Mithril Full Plate providing a combined +11 AC bonus vs the best option for a ranger being a chain shirt for only +8 AC bonus. On top of this, the Fighter has the spare feats to acquire Combat Expertise and the Two-Weapon Defense line, which nets at least a +14 AC bonus to the Fighter, +19 if the excess 2 points of to hit are used (net AC over the Ranger: 11)

That's alot of defense and offense the Ranger is lacking.


To elaborate on what OldTrees said
Attack bonus is painfully easy to optimize, you know.

I do know. Anything the Ranger can do, the Fighter can do, which means apart from the Weapon Supremacy line and favored enemy (which are unique to each class), everything else is a wash, and the Weapon Sup. line does more than the Favored Enemy class feature for combat ability.


That said, a Lightning Mace build is woefully suboptimal, barring the known Lightning Kukri Warblade trick with Blood in the Water.

What is this referring to? A Fighter can just as easily pick up Blood in the Water, it's only a 1st level stance.


High CON is a must for a frontliner, for HPs and spells that drain it.
Higher INT to offset low skill points per level.
WIS for salvaging your abysmal Will save.
CHA if you want to use Zhentarim Fighter

This is spreading the character too thin.
Stat prioritization for the Fighter:

Str keys to: Melee To Hit, Damage, Carry Weight, Opposed Combat Checks (Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Trip, Bull Rush, etc...), qualifying for certain feat trees (Power Attack) and 3 of 7 class skills (Climb, Jump, Swim)
Dex keys to: Ranged to Hit, AC, Reflex Saves, qualifying for certain feat trees (Dodge, Unarmed Strike's tree, anything Archery, and TWF) 1 of 7 skills (Ride)
Con keys to: Fort Saves, HP
Int keys to: Skill points, qualifying for certain feat trees (Combat Expertise), and 1 of 7 skills (Craft)
Wis keys to: Will Saves, qualifying for certain feat trees (Combat Focus)
Cha keys to: 2 of 7 skills (Handle Animal, and Intimidate)

If you have no intention of taking the Combat Focus feat line from PHBII, Wisdom is a dump stat.
Charisma is also a dump stat, even if you're planning on using intimidate or handle animal.

That leaves: Str, Dex, Con, and Int.

If you plan on using TWF you need at least a 13 in Dex to start, the extra 6 points for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can be made up via an enhancement bonus item.
Str is the highest priority stat after that, as it directly correlates to your damage output, which is the reason you're playing a Fighter and not a Rogue.
I like Combat Expertise and its line, so I favor Int as the third priority, the extra skill points is nice enough, but a Fighter doesn't need to be the skilled guy, that's the role of the Rogue/Ninja/Beguiler/Spell Thief/Scout/Factotum in the party.
Con gets whatever is left over, because it adds to durability, somewhat.


3rd: Knock-down

The Fighter with at least +4 Str mod and the Weapon Sup. line will auto-trigger a free trip attempt on every hit, even on the off-hand (assuming he has a +1 or better weapon).

That said, if the OP wants to go with a Longsword/Short sword combination, and the further recommendation is to focus on Charisma for intimidation...why not just have him use the Samurai from CW? The Bastard sword will do more damage than the longsword, and the Samurai at least has class features that key off Charisma.

By @10th the Samurai can demoralize everyone in 30 feet as a standard action (move by 14th), and with imperious command they're cowering that first round.

Chosen feats: (Up to 12th)
H: Combat Expertise
1st: Improved Trip
3rd: Knockdown
6th: Imperious Command
9th: Combat Reflexes
12th: Death Blow

Freebies:
1st: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
2nd: Two-Weapon Fighting (bastard sword + short sword)
5th: Quick Draw
8th: Improved Initiative
11th: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

Plus he gets face skills.
If he's really committed, take a level (or 2) in Ronin for sneak attack and Banzai charge (Basically Heedless Charge from Shock Trooper without the need to have Power Attack)

[Shadowscale]

High level is good and bad news. Good news in that you have more wealth. Bad news in that you have more holes to patch with wealth.

Standard point buy: Dex 14[6pts] + Str 15[8pts] + Cha 14[6pts]+ Con 11[3pts] + Int 10[2pts] + Wis 8[0pts]
Ability Boosts: +Dex, +Cha, +Dex
Pre item stats: Str15, Con11, Dex16, Int10, Wis8, Cha15

Human Barbarian(Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) 2 / Fighter(Thug, Z Soldier) 10

You have 6-8 general feats(depending on if flaws are allowed), 5 Ftr bonus feats plus Improved Trip and Skill Focus(Intimidate)

1st: Trollblooded, Combat Reflexes
2nd: Improved Trip
3rd: Knock-down
4th: Two Weapon Fighting[Ftr]
5th: Skill Focus(Intimidate)[Ftr]
6th: Imperious Command, Martial Study(Cloak of Deception)[Ftr]
8th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting[Ftr]
9th: Double Hit
10th: Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance)[Ftr]
12th: Staggering Strike, Robilar's Gambit[Ftr]

You have 5 skill points per level. (Keep Intimidate maxed, your skill list expands for levels 5, 7 and 11)

You end up with several tricks.
Regeneration
10+damage Hits grant free trip attacks
Trips grant free attacks
+2d6 Sneak Attack
All sneak attacks also [B]stagger the foe
4 Attacks of Opportunity per round.
Each AoO includes both weapons.
Attacking you grants an AoO regardless of whether they hit
Swift action: Demoralize (Cower 1 round, Shaken 1 round) [Fearsome armor would allow you to do this as Standard, Move and Swift actions in a turn]
1/encounter Swift action: Become invisible for 1 round

So now you just need gear to cover you weaker defenses (Cloak of Resistance, Periapt of Wisdom and Mind blank for Will Saves) and increased mobility(Flight)

I really like this build. I really wanted to play a light armored two weapon fighter human for the novelty of it. (and the fqct I like only those two features of ranger and none of the others) Also I like things out of tomb of battle, just not the biggest fan of the three classes for some reason. I think I'll use this thanks. Any reccomended future upgrades or prestieges?


If anyone has the lvl 20 fighter build being talked about I'd really like to see it.

[Shadowscale]

The plan was acrually to take oversized two weapon fighting and duel wield longswords, would that allow for greater damage output?

[OldTrees1]

I really like this build. I really wanted to play a light armored two weapon fighter human for the novelty of it. (and the fqct I like only those two features of ranger and none of the others) Also I like things out of tomb of battle, just not the biggest fan of the three classes for some reason. I think I'll use this thanks. Any reccomended future upgrades or prestieges?


If anyone has the lvl 20 fighter build being talked about I'd really like to see it.


I would definitely recommend a single level of Warblade at some point picking up: 1 IronHeart/WhiteRaven manuver, 1 1st level IronHeart/WhiteRaven stance, Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. Both of these patch holes in the build. I ran out of room for it in the 12 level build.

Scarlet Corsair (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b) is a nice prestige class that expands on the Sneak Attack and Demoralizing aspects of the build.

Jack B Quick (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1062806)


The plan was acrually to take oversized two weapon fighting and duel wield longswords, would that allow for greater damage output?

No. Power Attack would be a better choice for damage output. At your level the base weapon dice have no meaning anymore. If you have room for both Power Attack and OTWF then it might be worth it to enable power attacking with your off hand. However OTWF is not a worthy end in itself.