Epic Gestalt question

[merdakai]

Hey guys, long time lurker first time poster. I was just doing some test builds as I am wont to do. This time around I was toying with gestalt builds and decided to go through a few epic levels and came to a stopgap that I'm pretty sure how to go about it but wanted to consult with others who have probably run an epic gestalt headache, I mean campaign.

For sake of argument this test character is sorc10/incantater10//artificer 20 (not a great combo but was fun building). Other than a lot of paper work that was the easy part. Now entering lvl21 was also easy, but my problem came at lvl 23 (sorc10/incan13//artificer 23). Both incan and artificer both say they get a bonus feat (both from different yet similar lists). I'm pretty sure the character would still only gain 1 bonus feat since the bonus feat progression for the classes are at the same rate.

Am I correct in the way I'm thinking or do epic gestalt characters throw even more of the balance out of the window when it comes to bonus feats?

And on a similar note say at lvl 21 I would have advanced sorc to 11 instead of incantater. But then would raise incantater to 13 (by character lvl 24). Would that give me the bonus feat of artificer at 23 and the character feat at 24 along with the incantater bonus feat (for incantater lvl13)?


Thanks in advance for taking the time to read this =)_

[Talothorn]

For sake of argument this test character is sorc10/incantater10//artificer 20 (not a great combo but was fun building). Other than a lot of paper work that was the easy part. Now entering lvl21 was also easy, but my problem came at lvl 23 (sorc10/incan13//artificer 23). Both incan and artificer both say they get a bonus feat (both from different yet similar lists). I'm pretty sure the character would still only gain 1 bonus feat since the bonus feat progression for the classes are at the same rate.

Am I correct in the way I'm thinking or do epic gestalt characters throw even more of the balance out of the window when it comes to bonus feats?

And on a similar note say at lvl 21 I would have advanced sorc to 11 instead of incantater. But then would raise incantater to 13 (by character lvl 24). Would that give me the bonus feat of artificer at 23 and the character feat at 24 along with the incantater bonus feat (for incantater lvl13)?



Acquiring Epic Feats

Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.


The bonus feats are effectively class features and the character would get both.

[merdakai]

Wow. That makes me want to play am epic gestalt but not to DM epic gestalt. Epic is already broken enough, adding gestalt into the mix would explode brains and other extremities lol.

[Talothorn]

Epic feats do not really cause epic level play to be broken. You could give them an epic feat every level and it really doesn't make that much difference. What breaks the game at those levels are epic uses of skills (especially social skills) and epic spellcasting. Level 13 spells are really not even that crazy, it's just spells with metamagic. Epic spellcasting is insane, however.

[Vaz]

As an example of what can be achieved with epic spellcasting at 21st level, I like the following. This is without the aid of a second set of class features to aid it, as well. It is what I use as an example to my players that if they begin to start to break epic spellcasting further, I will whip out this character.

ECL21.

Wu Jen 6/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5, with Arcane Disciple (Luck) for Miracle. Extend and Persist as per usual - Reach spell is helpful to make spells Persistable. Epic Spellcasting, obviously.

Archmage SLA's are used as the following; Body Outside Body x1, Miracle x2, Wish x2. Wish basically gives me Wizard 8 or lower spells, at the obvious expense of 5000XP, Miracle at most others 7ths or lower, and Cleric 8ths. Body Outside Body SLA is the self generation system - SLA's are not explicitly banned. Incantatrix provides the Metamagic Effect ability, which lets me Persist, and then Extend the effect of each spell to 48 Hours, unless it would already last longer. Each Clone lasts 48 hours. Over that time, it can cast Body Outside Body 6x - Twice as the ability itself, and four times through Miracle - so basically, each clone creates 12 copies of itself, which creates 12 copies of itself, ad infinitum ad nauseam. There are technically no XP costs either unless the actual character uses Wish.

When creating my epic spells, I create all spells to be of Instantaneous Duration by applying the healing seed, or some other similar duration seed - each epic spell explicitly uses the shortest duration with multiple seeds. For the first one, I'd create an Epic Spell which massively boosts my Caster Level. Which is of course, Instantaneous. I apply lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of +X to the Spellcraft DC, which is mitigated by each clone reducing that DC by 19 thanks to an Epic Spell slot donated. There's no need to provide any other mitigation, either.

I then do the same with the Conceal Seed to grant myself permanent Invisibility, which cannot be pierced even by Epic Detection spells, thanks to the fact that the opposed Caster Level check is facing against one that has effectively infinity CL if you really want to go broken.

From then on, the sky is the limit.

[merdakai]

That sounds like Pun Pun's little brother

[TeslaJr]

That sounds like Pun Pun's little brother

That's Epic Spellcasting for you. I don't have a link to it, but I once saw an epic spell that was capable of animating the entire planet and putting it under your control. The Spellcraft DC was in the millions IIRC, but that was easily dropped down to 1.

[Talothorn]

Yeah. If you eliminate epic spellcasting, epic play is much more sane. (That said, who wants sane at 30th level? )

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes
Level 21+: Mary Sue's Super Friends' Anime Action Hour

If you are playing into epic levels, go nuts. Fight a sentient, animated planet golem. Kill some gods. Take over a few layers of the abyss and plant celestial daffodils. It's not meant to make sense anymore. As a 30th level wizard, you are the most powerful shaper of reality -ever-.

If you will indulge a comic book metaphor:
Think of 16th to 18th as DC superheroes. You fight super villains and evil genius masterminds. At 18th to 23rd, Marvel universe. Crazy, world threatening mutants and alien invasions. Past that, you are fighting galactus and winning. By 30th, galactus is your minion, and not even your most powerful one.