Advanced Class Guide Playtest: good options for the Bloodline Development Exploit

[Katana1515]

Hi Guys!

I think the Paizo forums for this are long since dead, but I had the playtest document laying around and a few friends and I thought we would give a couple the classes in it a spin. I picked up Arcanist, partly because I am a filthy powergamer with no morals :D and partly because I wanted to see if the powerhouse this appears to be on paper transfers into the real game experience.

Anyway without further tangents, the Arcanist has an Exploit (class features that the player chooses, roughly equivalent of a barbarians rage powers) that allows him to pick up the bloodline arcana of any one sorcerer bloodline plus the 1st level sorcerer power of that bloodline. In addition as a swift action he can gain the bloodline powers of a sorcerer of his level for 1 minute so many times a day.

Unfortunately it has been a few years since I last got to play a PF sorc so i turn to the wiser minds of the playground an beseech you for suggestions on fun, flavourful or just plain powerful bloodlines that work well with this ability.

In terms of context the character will be level 6, probably human and build is as yet undecided (this a spur of the moment thing, all suggestions are welcome)

thanks for all the advice in advance!

[Snowbluff]

I picked up Arcanist, partly because I am a filthy powergamer with no morals :D

Good man. :smallbiggrin:

The arcane one would be good, since it let's you fiddle with MM, but I'll have to double check how it interacts with Arcanist (might not be needed, etc). They also give you the option to give +2 to your DCs for a school, which I think you can switch everytime you activate it as an Arcanist.

I'll have to look at some of the others. Avoid the ones that use a lot of Cha, because Cha is kind of a waste for an arcanist.

Oh, and take the Foresight School from wizard, while you are at it.

[Katana1515]

Thanks for the tips! but I think they fiddled with how the exploit interacts with the arcane bloodline (no arcane bond :( ) so I am probably going to avoid it. Also nice catch on the foresight school Snowbluff, consider it taken!

Furthermore following information from the DM, the game is going to be set in an urban environment with plenty of humanoids wandering loose. taking into account the ease with which an Arcanist can pump up his save DC's using Arcane points and Potent Magic, I have decided to load up on Compulsion enchantments and take the Fey Bloodline to further boost those DC's. Unless someone can point towards a better option for a Save or Lose/Mindslave specialist?

Should make a nice divergence from my typical GOD wizard play-style if nothing else! may repost my thoughts here after the game, if anyone's interested. not quite sure what impact all these new classes are going to have on the game once the books released. Some of them are neat, but I think I would rather see them publish something like new prestige classes than 10 whole new base classes.

[Kurald Galain]

Oh, and take the Foresight School from wizard, while you are at it.

I believe the arcanist ability lets you pick up a school (e.g. Divination) but not a subschool (e.g. Foresight)...

[Kudaku]

School Understanding: The arcanist can select one arcane school from any of the schools available to arcane school wizard class feature, but does not have to select any opposition schools.

I think that's fairly clear in that subschools should be viable options.

Divination is definitely a solid choice, but there are some other good ones. The Teleportation subschool for Conjuration gives you a swift action Dimension Door, which can be a lifesaver. The Admixture subschool for Evocation is awesome if you're thinking about making a blaster.

As for bloodlines... It really depends on what kind of Arcanist you're making and what you think you'll be doing. Orc bloodline is pretty nice for blasting, the Fey bloodline is excellent for a minionmancer, the Undead bloodline is very good if the campaign is undead-heavy and so on.

[Snowbluff]

It really helps with the Arcanist's "I'm a sorcerer or wizard but better" status. :smalltongue:

[Katana1515]

It really helps with the Arcanist's "I'm a sorcerer or wizard but better" status. :smalltongue:

Pretty much. I can still see somewhat see an argument for playing a wizard over the arcanist, since you get slightly more spell slots and can prepare a much wider array of spells in a single day.

But the poor Sorc is rendered pretty much obsolete. Bloodlines were a nice addition in pathfinder compared to 3.5 but the spontaneous casting was still their main gimmick and reason to play one. Know you have something that gives you all the advantages but none of the disadvantages. To add insult to injury you get better (IMHO much better) class features thrown in as well!

Play-testers on the Paizo boards seem to have totally overlooked this though. I reckon this is because most of these playtests are of single session experiences, where the powerful ability to swap spells around daily is totally overlooked.

[Snowbluff]

Pretty much. I can still see somewhat see an argument for playing a wizard over the arcanist, since you get slightly more spell slots and can prepare a much wider array of spells in a single day. It's the wizard's +1 spell level versus the number of dead or useless spells prepared you can end up with on the wizard.

"I prepare banishment. I sure hope we run into those demons like we've predicted," and so on.


But the poor Sorc is rendered pretty much obsolete. Bloodlines were a nice addition in pathfinder compared to 3.5 but the spontaneous casting was still their main gimmick and reason to play one. Know you have something that gives you all the advantages but none of the disadvantages. To add insult to injury you get better (IMHO much better) class features thrown in as well! At least a sorcerer can use Half Elf cheese unlike the Arcanist? Right?


Play-testers on the Paizo boards seem to have totally overlooked this though. I reckon this is because most of these playtests are of single session experiences, where the powerful ability to swap spells around daily is totally overlooked.
Everyone but the playtesters pointed it out, but they weren't playtesting so Paizo ignored them and the fan boys abused them. :smallfrown:

[Katana1515]

It's the wizard's +1 spell level versus the number of dead or useless spells prepared you can end up with on the wizard.

"I prepare banishment. I sure hope we run into those demons like we've predicted," and so on.


Yeah that's pretty much how I can see it playing out tbh. Would still like to see the two in the same long term campaign, if only to see who would break the world first.

one of the most common arguments I saw defending the Arcanist on the Paizo forums is the wizards ability to keep slots open at the beginning of the day and then prep spells to deal with new situations in a few minutes later on. now in my experience wizards who do that get DMG's thrown at them? am I missing a trick here?

as for half-elf cheese :smallsmile: well if we are having to use questionable TO to justify a classes existence vs another class played as intended...... I suspect the battle is already lost?

[Kurald Galain]

At least a sorcerer can use Half Elf cheese unlike the Arcanist? Right?
What's that, then? I tried googling it but only came up with 4E half-elf cheese :smallamused:


Everyone but the playtesters pointed it out, but they weren't playtesting so Paizo ignored them and the fan boys abused them. :smallfrown:
Isn't there going to be another revision of the playtest before the final print? I mean, this one is kind of obvious, isn't it?

[Kudaku]

What's that, then? I tried googling it but only came up with 4E half-elf cheese :smallamused:

Paragon Surge cheese (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ox7t?The-Mini-Guide-to-Paragon-Surge). So prevalent it has its own mini-guide.

[Katana1515]

Isn't there going to be another revision of the playtest before the final print? I mean, this one is kind of obvious, isn't it?

I seriously hope so, I have no idea how they figured the current incarnation was suitable. I would rate the average arcane exploit as being worth at least 1 feat. (indeed you can exchange them for metamagic and Item crafting feats) so even without the spellcasting mechanic this is a full casting class, with the best spell list in the game, that gains 10 bonus feats across 20 levels. pretty sure this wouldn't last 10 minutes on a Homebrew forum, but Paizo thinks its gameworthy?

also may have to read that mini guide, could never get my head around how that half elf cheese worked! thanks for the link

[Kudaku]

The classes definitely go through another set of adjustments after the revised play test - I'll be very surprised if it doesn't get scaled back a bit in areas, most likely by making the intelligence/charisma split more important. That said, I think the current version of the arcanist is a much, much more interesting class than the wizard.

[Kurald Galain]

The classes definitely go through another set of adjustments after the revised play test
Do you have a source on that statement?

[Kudaku]

Do you have a source on that statement?

Since I don't see blue text: What's the point of having a second playtest if they're not going to revise the classes based on the feedback from that playtest...?

[Kurald Galain]

Hm, looking over the class again, I get the impression they're giving the class either a new spell level or a new exploit every level, so that there are no dead levels. That's a pretty good idea; but let's compare this to other classes over the scope of 20 levels.

The Witch gets ten hexes; however, the Witch's spell list is somewhat limited. Her spell progression goes 1-2-2-3-3-3-4. (edit:tyop)
The Sorcerer gets five bloodline powers and three feats; however, bloodline powers come in groups, and there's basically no bloodline where all abilities are good. His spell progression goes 3-4-5-6-6-6.
The Wizard gets two school abilities and five feats; however school abilities come in pairs, and there are basically no schools where both abilities are good. His spell progression goes 2-3-3-4-4-4-5-5-5.
And the Arcanist gets ten exploits, and his spell progression goes 2-3-4-4-4.

So yeah. I think the easiest solution is to tone down Arcy's spell progression (e.g. to that of the Witch, 1-2-2-3-3-4), giving him less of his highest level spells to compensate for his versatility. I'm actually fine with giving ten exploits, but I don't like the ones that let you grab a Sorcerer bloodline or a Wizard school. These two make it seem like the arcanist is intended to obsolete the two earlier classes. Without these two tricks, it should be fine (unless I'm overlooking some combo, of course).

[Snowbluff]

What's that, then? I tried googling it but only came up with 4E half-elf cheese :smallamused:
Half Elves are not that cheesy in 4e. :smalltongue:


Isn't there going to be another revision of the playtest before the final print? I mean, this one is kind of obvious, isn't it?

I doubt they would make any substantial changes. The basis of the Arcanist is that casting mechanic that we have an issue with.

[Chris Robin R2]

Anyway without further tangents, the Arcanist has an Exploit (class features that the player chooses, roughly equivalent of a barbarians rage powers) that allows him to pick up the bloodline arcana of any one sorcerer bloodline plus the 1st level sorcerer power of that bloodline. In addition as a swift action he can gain the bloodline powers of a sorcerer of his level for 1 minute so many times a day.


Unless you've got a different version from me, you've read that wrong. You explicitly do NOT gain any new powers. You simply count as a sorcerer of your level for the arcana/power you do have, instead of being level 1 like normal.

[Kudaku]

I think your spell progression chart for the witch is incorrect. The witch gains new spells less than every two levels: 1/2/2/3/3/3/4

I'm not crazy about changing it to the witch spell progression - the Arcanist quickly runs out of steam at low levels as it is. The witch gets by with low spells/day because she can rely on her unlimited hexes to contribute meaningfully in combat, while the arcanist class features (ie exploits) doesn't really add any more endurance to the class. Assuming he was using the witch spell progression he'd cast his two level 1 spells (1/day +1 for intelligence), and then he'd be forced to either use Cantrips or a crossbow.

It's easy to forget that the wizard spell capacity is effectively one higher than the one listed in the wizard spell progression chart since he gets to memorize an extra spell if he specializes in a school - which there really isn't a reason not to do in Pathfinder. The specialist wizard pulls ahead of the arcanist at spells/day (capping at 5 to the arcanist's 4) and the wizard gains new spell levels one level earlier, meaning he has even more spells to bring to bear. Near as I can tell, the sorcerer is always ahead at spells/day.

I do agree that the school and bloodline exploits need to be toned down. They're neat abilities for the "combining wizards and sorcerers"-concept but being able to cherrypick the best subschool and the best bloodline power without losing a caster level is very, very good.

Edit: Wow, double ninjaed. This post is primarily directed at Kurald.

[Kurald Galain]

It's easy to forget that the wizard spell capacity is effectively one higher than the one listed in the wizard spell progression chart
Yes, I took that into account. It's also true that any casting class is going to have a bonus spell at every level, but that applies to all of them.

I haven't seen a lot of arcanists in play yet so I'm not sure how quickly they run out of steam; but I do notice that low-level wizards and sorcs run out of steam rather quickly, and moderate levels they basically never run out of tricks before the day ends. Getting back to the arcanist, maybe his per-day progression of the higher levels could be toned down without affecting the lower levels. Wizards do get everything a level earlier, yes, but as currently printed the Arcanist is flat out better than the sorc, and tied with the wizard at even levels.

[Kudaku]

Yes, I took that into account. It's also true that any casting class is going to have a bonus spell at every level, but that applies to all of them.

That particular statement was meant as a general observation for people comparing the wizard and arcanist spell progression charts. Probably could have worded it better. My bad. :smallfrown:


I haven't seen a lot of arcanists in play yet so I'm not sure how quickly they run out of steam; but I do notice that low-level wizards and sorcs run out of steam rather quickly, and moderate levels they basically never run out of tricks before the day ends. Getting back to the arcanist, maybe his per-day progression of the higher levels could be toned down without affecting the lower levels. Wizards do get everything a level earlier, yes, but as currently printed the Arcanist is flat out better than the sorc, and tied with the wizard at even levels.

I'm playing an arcanist in a S&S campaign at the moment actually, currently from levels 1 to 5. I made a few decisions in the character build that I would probably have altered now, namely I focused on Charisma as well as intelligence - 18 INT and 16 CHA. Knowing what I know now, I would probably have put the 16 in Constitution and put the 14 I had in Constitution in Charisma. The few spells/level is not an insurmountable problem, but it is an issue - like with most casters, you really need to pick your battles. That said, it probably didn't help that this particular Adventure Path doesn't give you access to a decent shopping option until you're level ~4 so I had no way of stocking up on utility scrolls or wands.

One thing that surprised me by how painful it was is how you only prepare one highest-level spell at even levels. In my case I prepared Create Pit and then realized the massive dungeon we were about to explore was mostly flooded - Create Pit is less than impressive underwater. A even level wizard could be carrying 3 different max-level spells and thus have a much higher chance of preparing useful spells.

[Snowbluff]

The problem is that they have a spell book.

[Katana1515]

Unless you've got a different version from me, you've read that wrong. You explicitly do NOT gain any new powers. You simply count as a sorcerer of your level for the arcana/power you do have, instead of being level 1 like normal.

You are correct sir! I had already adjusted for this, but thankyou for clarifying

[Kudaku]

The problem is that they have a spell book.

In my opinion the problem is rather that the sorcerer does not have a spell book. I think the best way to balance arcane casters is to give them a limited total spell list and rather give them interesting class features, not to harshly limit their spells known but let them pick anything under the sky.

In Pathfinder I think the magus is a good example of a caster that has a good mix of class features and a decent but fairly narrowly defined spell list. For 3.5 in general, I seem to recall the Dread Necromancer (Disclaimer: Haven't read the class in years so I might be recollecting this wrongly) was a good take on the problem.

[Katana1515]

For 3.5 in general, I seem to recall the Dread Necromancer (Disclaimer: Haven't read the class in years so I might be recollecting this wrongly) was a good take on the problem.

the fixed list system for class design seems a pretty good way of creating T3 spellcasters, I have seen folk play Beguilers, Dread Necs and Warmages all with a high degree of success and optimisation without burning the game to the ground (okay there was this one Dread Necro, but it was my fault for okaying a bunch of 3rd party stuff without adequate thought :smallbiggrin: )

While you guys are still around, can I trouble you for feat suggestions for a level 6 arcanist focusing on save or lose tactics? to make things more interesting it looks like this game is verging into 3.P territory so suggestions of 3.5 stuff would also be welcome!

[Kudaku]

Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus are good options - I find that Conjuration is a great school for "save or you're boned".

Improved Initiative means you can start organizing the battlefield the way you want it faster, always a good thing.

Bouncing Spell might a worthwhile addition if you go with single-target debuffs.

Depending on the campaign and/or adventure path you're running a crafting feat might be a good idea - Craft Wondrous Items or even Scribe Scroll, though you could also pick one of those up via an exploit.

Down the line I'd consider Dazing and Persistent Spell but at level 6 you probably don't have the spell slots to pull it off yet.

The ultimate goal should be Spell Perfection, ideally paired up with Quicken Spell.

[Kurald Galain]

While I agree that giving classes a limited spell list is good design, we should bear in mind that the Arcanist is intended to be a sorc/wizard hybrid, so there's little sense in giving it anything other than the sorc/wizard spell list.



Bouncing Spell might a worthwhile addition if you go with single-target debuffs.
While I love the idea of bouncing spell, I generally find that it doesn't work on the spells that I want to use it on. By strict reading it doesn't even work on Ray spells...

Oh and by the way, pick up the Magical Lineage and Metamagic Master traits.

[Kudaku]

While I agree that giving classes a limited spell list is good design, we should bear in mind that the Arcanist is intended to be a sorc/wizard hybrid, so there's little sense in giving it anything other than the sorc/wizard spell list.

Good point, I think I slipped into "If I ran teh Paizo"-mode again. I generally find classes with nuanced spell lists and good class features much more interesting than classes with wide spell lists and few/no class features. I also dislike casters with fixed spell lists unless I get to start playing them at mid to high levels.


While I love the idea of bouncing spell, I generally find that it doesn't work on the spells that I want to use it on. By strict reading it doesn't even work on Ray spells...

It is a bit of a niche spell since you generally want to use AoE options on your Save or Suck spells, but it does have some decent utility (Enchantment/Compulsion spells especially) and the Arcanist can apply it to spells as needed with a full-round casting action. I don't think I've ever seen a GM rule out Bouncing Spell with rays, you got unlucky there.


Oh and by the way, pick up the Magical Lineage and Metamagic Master traits.

Seconded, unless you want/need the traits for something else.

[Snowbluff]

In my opinion the problem is rather that the sorcerer does not have a spell book. I think the best way to balance arcane casters is to give them a limited total spell list and rather give them interesting class features, not to harshly limit their spells known but let them pick anything under the sky.

In Pathfinder I think the magus is a good example of a caster that has a good mix of class features and a decent but fairly narrowly defined spell list. For 3.5 in general, I seem to recall the Dread Necromancer (Disclaimer: Haven't read the class in years so I might be recollecting this wrongly) was a good take on the problem.
This pretty much cements the lack of improvement from PF.
"Sorcs are pretty messed up. Too few spells know, but they can still destroy the game."
3.5: "Let's make 3 better balanced classes with some interesting crunch. Let them pick up some spells from their specialty so they can be future-proofed, too."
PF: "Uber Sorc, go!"

I'm not a big fan of the Magus. I generally prefer the DB, even if it's list is a little small.

While I agree that giving classes a limited spell list is good design, we should bear in mind that the Arcanist is intended to be a sorc/wizard hybrid, so there's little sense in giving it anything other than the sorc/wizard spell list. Yeah, it's stuck. The result will be more or less balanced versus two of the strongest classes in the game, and there's very little middle ground.



Oh and by the way, pick up the Magical Lineage and Metamagic Master traits.

Mhm. Also, Persistent spell is good with Save-or-Suck spells.

[Kudaku]

This pretty much cements the lack of improvement from PF.
"Sorcs are pretty messed up. Too few spells know, but they can still destroy the game."
3.5: "Let's make 3 better balanced classes with some interesting crunch. Let them pick up some spells from their specialty so they can be future-proofed, too."
PF: "Uber Sorc, go!"

I think the PF Sorcerer is vastly improved from the 3.5 class - bloodlines really helped it flesh out and it feels distinct from the Wizard now. I do wish they'd have gone further in the (re)design of the core full caster classes, but that really runs counter to the original design goal of PF.


I'm not a big fan of the Magus. I generally prefer the DB, even if it's list is a little small.

I have no idea what the DB is short for. Divine Bard?

[Kurald Galain]

I have no idea what the DB is short for. Divine Bard?

Duskblade, 3.5's relatively unknown (but pretty good) attempt at a gish.

[Snowbluff]

I think the PF Sorcerer is vastly improved from the 3.5 class - bloodlines really helped it flesh out and it feels distinct from the Wizard now. I do wish they'd have gone further in the (re)design of the core full caster classes, but that really runs counter to the original design goal of PF.
Yeah, but the wizard got a lot class features, too. Not that it really matters for the wizard, since they had a bunch of ridiculous ACfs available 3.5.



I have no idea what the DB is short for. Divine Bard?

Duskblade.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[Kudaku]

Ah! I never actually got around to reading the Duskblade, my local bookstore never got the PHB II in stock. I see it mentioned on and off though. What is it you dislike about the magus?


Yeah, but the wizard got a lot class features, too. (...)

Which I also think is a good thing. Mechanically the 3.5 wizard was an incredibly dull class, which was why everyone ditched it and picked up a prestige class ASAP. The Pathfinder school abilities are an improvement and I really like the idea behind the Thassilonian specialist, but I'd love to see wizards gain more interesting class features like the Arcanist Exploits or Magus Arcana.

[Snowbluff]

Ah! I never actually got around to reading the Duskblade, my local bookstore never got the PHB II in stock. I see it mentioned on and off though. What is it you dislike about the magus? They have heavy restrictions on their class features. Mostly the requirement to wield a one-hand slashing weapon. Positively disgraceful. The prepared casting and 3/4 BAB are a crime, as well. Considering the CMB system, having 3/4 BAB is pretty bad. Considering the new Concentration system, not being a primary caster is pretty deplorable. Since they need dex for AC and CMB, they end up going into getting dex to attack and damage, and can't really afford too much int. Which is a kind of a good thing, since Gish-in-a-Can should never really need too much int.

Overall, I don't find building with it too flexible. I have a similiar complaint about the DB, but I have found the 3.5 class very useful off the Power-Attack-Knowledge-Devotion-Arcane-Strike train. Man, I wish that combo was that strong in PF.


Which I also think is a good thing. Mechanically the 3.5 wizard was an incredibly dull class, which was why everyone ditched it and picked up a prestige class ASAP. The Pathfinder school abilities are an improvement and I really like the idea behind the Thassilonian specialist, but I'd love to see wizards gain more interesting class features like the Arcanist Exploits or Magus Arcana.
I would would ditch the PF wizard, but there are not any real options to do so. Most Exploits aren't worth the action or stat investment, either.

[Kudaku]

They have heavy restrictions on their class features. Mostly the requirement to wield a one-hand slashing weapon. Positively disgraceful. The prepared casting and 3/4 BAB are a crime, as well. Considering the CMB system, having 3/4 BAB is pretty bad. Considering the new Concentration system, not being a primary caster is pretty deplorable. Since they need dex for AC and CMB, they end up going into getting dex to attack and damage, and can't really afford too much int. Which is a kind of a good thing, since Gish-in-a-Can should never really need too much int.

I agree that it's a fairly tightly wound class, and I agree that the Dervish Dance magus is far too prevalent at the low levels. However the Strength magus becomes better and better as you level up and arguably passes the straight magus when you gain heavy armor proficiency.

I have to ask, have you read the final draft of the class? Some of the issues you mention, like being restricted to one-handed slashing weapons, doesn't really... Exist.


I would would ditch the PF wizard, but there are not any real options to do so. Most Exploits aren't worth the action or stat investment, either.

This I very much disagree with, apart from See Magic and the elemental exploits (which fall between two chairs really) I think many of the exploits are well worth the effort. Many of them could also become truly excellent feats. That said, I would like to see more class features for the wizard/sorcerer because it helps define the idea of the class. "I can cast 99% of all arcane spells and occasionally I get a bonus feat" isn't really what I consider good class design. Which is also part of why I dislike the fighter, but that's a whole nother topic.

[Kurald Galain]

They have heavy restrictions on their class features. Mostly the requirement to wield a one-hand slashing weapon. Positively disgraceful. The prepared casting and 3/4 BAB are a crime, as well. Considering the CMB system, having 3/4 BAB is pretty bad. Considering the new Concentration system, not being a primary caster is pretty deplorable.
Maybe you're referring to the playtest version? The Magus as currently in print can use any one-handed weapon for his spell combat feature, has a swift action feature to boost his weapon to compensate for the lower BAB, gets proficiency with heavy armor at higher levels, and can use strength for CMB like anyone else. You can play him as str-primary, dex-primary, or even int-primary as a debuffer; and with melee weapons, ranged, reach, or natural attacks if you have them.

Looks pretty flexible to me, really.

[Snowbluff]

I agree that it's a fairly tightly wound class, and I agree that the Dervish Dance magus is far too prevalent at the low levels. However the Strength magus becomes better and better as you level up and arguably passes the straight magus when you gain heavy armor proficiency.

I have to ask, have you read the final draft of the class? Some of the issues you mention, like being restricted to one-handed slashing weapons, doesn't really... Exist.
THe Strength Magus loses out on one of the best resources for a melee character, Power Attack, in 3 ways.
1) 3/4 BAB
2) Spell combat doesn't not allow for the 3x bonus.
3) Spell combat gives a -2 penalty.

I misremembered the slashing part, but it's still a class built for the wrong system. I haven't personally read the playtest. It's still like the rogue except they wrote it with their rule changes in mind.



This I very much disagree with, apart from See Magic and the elemental exploits (which fall between two chairs really) I think many of the exploits are well worth the effort. Many of them could also become truly excellent feats. That said, I would like to see more class features for the wizard/sorcerer because it helps define the idea of the class. "I can cast 99% of all arcane spells and occasionally I get a bonus feat" isn't really what I consider good class design. Which is also part of why I dislike the fighter, but that's a whole nother topic.That is most of them, if you include the "you get a feat" ones.

Nah, casting rocks. It's infinitely more adaptable and playable than "class features" (they say, as if spells weren't). A section has to be written for new bloodlines and is (usually) stuck to a singular class, where as a spell or feat could built for by a player. One is actually giving decisions to a player, while the other is a yolk and burden.

Being able to poach more class features would be cool, though. Eldritch Heritage serves some use. All of this stuff just should have been feats, and we should just get 2 more feats at first level. I would like to have better feat options.

The Magus as currently in print can use any one-handed weapon for his spell combat feature, Sucks. Reread spell combat. Every line about it is wrong and needs to be rewritten.

has a swift action feature to boost his weapon to compensate for the lower BAB Sucks really bad. Costs a daily resource keyed off of a stat that shouldn't go past 18. Wastes a swift action. The baseline version doesn't stack with enhancement bonus.

[Kurald Galain]

THe Strength Magus loses out on one of the best resources for a melee character, Power Attack, in 3 ways.
Indeed. Magi don't use power attack, they boost their damage with spells instead. That means more variety between melee classes, which I'd call a good thing.


Sucks. Reread spell combat. Every line about it is wrong and needs to be rewritten.
Ok, we get it, you don't like the class. That doesn't mean it's objectively a bad class; it's a solid Tier Three last time I checked, putting it ahead of the Barb and Rogue.


The baseline version doesn't stack with enhancement bonus.
And I quote, "These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement". So yeah.

[Snowbluff]

Indeed. Magi don't use power attack, they boost their damage with spells instead. That means more variety between melee classes, which I'd call a good thing. Variety is something that should be provided by players, not to players.



Ok, we get it, you don't like the class. That doesn't mean it's objectively a bad class; it's a solid Tier Three last time I checked, putting it ahead of the Barb and Rogue.
I believe it gets to T3 on it's spell list alone. It's effective, but it being "bad" may include and is not limited to objective problems with poorly designed class features. Subjectively, I think magic knights combining steel and spellwork is cool.

Barb I do dislike objectively and subjectively, though. I just don't like the class. Rogue is cool, but is inferior in both 3.5 and PF, and lacks niche protection.


And I quote, "These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement". So yeah.

Up to a maximum of 5. Nice use of selective quotes. So yeah, that was an erroneous argument. 5 is the same a full BAB user would get from his weapon, but he has the added benefit of more easily qualifying for feats or their scaling. The bonus to hit is useless once you get Greater Magic Weapon. Which is good because GMW is great. Au revoir, which I hope is never, Arcane Pool bonus!

[Kudaku]

Up to a maximum of 5. Nice use of selective quotes. So yeah, that was an erroneous argument. 5 is the same a full BAB user would get from his weapon, but he has the added benefit of more easily qualifying for feats or their scaling. The bonus to hit is useless once you get Greater Magic Weapon. Which is good because GMW is great. Au revoir, which I hope is never, Arcane Pool bonus!

It's really not. A magus can run with a straight +5 weapon and spend a swift action to upgrade it to +10 with a set of enhancements that suits the situation (including Bane, which is amazing).

Casting Greater Magic Weapon before-hand the magus starts off the day with a +5 weapon or by applying Greater Magic Weapon at the start of an encounter, the magus can carry a set of masterwork weapons and have the equivalent of a situation-customized +10 weapon via one round of Spell Combat. That's a massive WBL advantage over traditional martial classes, and he's not relying on someone else providing the buffs needed to pull it off.


THe Strength Magus loses out on one of the best resources for a melee character, Power Attack, in 3 ways.
1) 3/4 BAB
2) Spell combat doesn't not allow for the 3x bonus.
3) Spell combat gives a -2 penalty.

1) 1 The magus has a 3/4th BAB granted, but he has class features that more than make up for the difference in attack bonus. Comparing it to the rogue is disingenuous. A better comparison would be to the bard or the inquisitor.

2 & 3) You realize that the magus still can power attack with two hands? Spell Combat is an option, not a requirement. Most strength magi will regularly swap from one to two-handed fighting whenever they are not using Spell Combat. Furthermore, most magi choose not to use two-handed weapons because having the best spell action economy in the game is better than the +4 damage from THF power attack. However if you want to run a magi that relies on THF and never uses Spell Combat, you can.

As for the -2 penalty, look above. Arcane Pool, Arcane Accuracy and a spell list designed to make the magi a viable threat in combat more than make up for a -2 penalty.

I don't mind you not liking the magus. Tastes differ after all, I dislike the wizard because I find it too bland and vanilla. That said, I think that you really should reread the class more closely though. Again, most of the reasons you're stating for not liking it doesn't really exist...


Sucks. Reread spell combat. Every line about it is wrong and needs to be rewritten.

You're doing that thing again. :smallsigh:


That is most of them, if you include the "you get a feat" ones.
Why wouldn't I include the "you get a feat" ones? Discounting the five elemental powers and See Magic I count 11/17 exploits I'd considered worthwhile.


Nah, casting rocks. It's infinitely more adaptable and playable than "class features" (they say, as if spells weren't). A section has to be written for new bloodlines and is (usually) stuck to a singular class, where as a spell or feat could built for by a player. One is actually giving decisions to a player, while the other is a yolk and burden.

I think we should agree to disagree on this, clearly we have very different views on what makes a good class. :smallsmile:

[Kurald Galain]

It's really not. A magus can run with a straight +5 weapon and spend a swift action to upgrade it to +10 with a set of enhancements that suits the situation (including Bane, which is amazing).
Yep. It's pretty funny actually; as early as level 5, where the rest of the party is likely using ordinary +1 or +2 weapons, the Magus can customize his weapon every combat ranging from a plain +4 to a keen +3 to a shocking freezing +2. Hey look, he's taking -2 to hit for +2d6 to damage, that's like he gets Power Attack for free :smallbiggrin:

"I say, Jeeves, I shall be using the Cold Iron Flaming Burst +2 for this battle."
"Splendid, sir."

[Snowbluff]

It's really not. A magus can run with a straight +5 weapon and spend a swift action to upgrade it to +10 with a set of enhancements that suits the situation (including Bane, which is amazing).
Again, this is the difference between effective and bad. Spamming Bane Sounds good, though.



1) 1 The magus has a 3/4th BAB granted, but he has class features that more than make up for the difference in attack bonus. Comparing it to the rogue is disingenuous. A better comparison would be to the bard or the inquisitor.
It's a question of whether or not we will give a class the tools it needs to perform in the environment. Rogue has issues because it's considered a melee class, but suffers due to a low CMD and other nerfed mechanics, much like the magus. Where as rogue is reliant on the nerfed tumble rules, the Magus suffers with the Concentration rules.

Arcane Accuracy openly conflicts with the "I am more than effective all day" portion of being a gish. Why not just REMOVE that ability and give full BAB and remove the penalties if they are supposedly equivalent? Arcane Accuracy is about as bland as it gets in terms of abilities. Nothing says shoring up like giving a bonus in the form of a sub stat. For a guy who's not into bland stuff, you sure are into the defending the blandest ability.


I don't mind you not liking the magus. Tastes differ after all, I dislike the wizard because I find it too bland and vanilla. That said, I think that you really should reread the class more closely though. Again, most of the reasons you're stating for not liking it doesn't really exist... That's pretty dismissive, bro. I play opposite a magus in both an adventure path and PFS. This is stuff that comes up.



You're doing that thing again. :smallsigh:

Should the magus count this as TWF? Should he need a hand free? Should he take the -2 penalty? Should the penalty to get a concentration bonus be from attack? Should he not be allowed to make his spell the second attack out of three?


Why wouldn't I include the "you get a feat" ones? Discounting the five elemental powers and See Magic I count 11/17 exploits I'd considered worthwhile.

I'll take a look at it again, but I only really liked the counterspell one. Counterspellers had much more fun in 3.5. :smalltongue:


I think we should agree to disagree on this, clearly we have very different views on what makes a good class. :smallsmile: Sure thing, bro. As for this OTHER guy...

[Kudaku]

It's a question of whether or not we will give a class the tools it needs to perform in the environment. Rogue has issues because it's considered a melee class, but suffers due to a low CMD and other nerfed mechanics, much like the magus. Where as rogue is reliant on the nerfed tumble rules, the Magus suffers with the Concentration rules.

The main problem with the Pathfinder rogue is that it is MAD (strength/dexterity, constitution, wisdom, arguably intelligence & charisma), has a medium bab progression with no way of improving its attack bonus, and has to either put itself at great risk to achieve flanking or use extreme amounts of system mastery to reliably use Sneak Attack.

The Magus really doesn't have the same problems. For starters, it's less MAD. It needs either strength or dex, constitution, and intelligence. It can safely dump both wisdom and charisma. Concentration checks look problematic on the surface but in play it becomes less of an issue with every level - a 1st level elf magus with a concentration trait, Combat Casting (+4) and 16 int (+3), is looking at a +12 check for a DC 17 check. At level 5 he's looking at +17 (+4 from CL, +1 from 18 int) and the hardest DC he has to beat is 19. At level 10 he has +22, and the hardest Casting Defensively DC is 23.

Since the majority of the attack spells a magus is casting are low level he can usually stop worrying about concentration checks around level 3. Past level 8 he'll literally never fail a concentration check to cast a spell defensively. None of that is assuming any items other than a +2 intelligence headband (at level 6).


Arcane Accuracy openly conflicts with the "I am more than effective all day" portion of being a gish.

What makes you think gishes aren't meant to have daily resources? From a quick skim of the Duskblade I see (1, 2, 3, 4)/day quickened spells and a very short list of spells/day.

That said, Arcane Accuracy is a temporary bonus for when you really need the extra attack bonus. The real meat is the weapon enchantment from the arcane pool, which covers the gap between medium and full BAB progression.

One caveat is that full BAB translates to a better CMD by default, but again there are numerous spells available to sidestep that issue.


Why not just REMOVE that ability and give full BAB and remove the penalties if they are supposedly equivalent? Arcane Accuracy is about as bland as it gets in terms of abilities. Nothing says shoring up like giving a bonus in the form of a sub stat. For a guy who's not into bland stuff, you sure are into the defending the blandest ability.

I think giving the magus full BAB progression, the Spell Combat mechanic and 6th level spellcasting is overkill. That said, if you want a full BAB gish then I think the Bloodrager might be what you're looking for. And for the record I don't find Arcane Accuracy bland - Using the arcana is an interesting trade between saving arcane pool points for spells (spell recall) or long-term buffs (enchant weapon) and short-term buffs (I REALLY need to make this attack hit).

I looked over the Duskblade and I found it a little underwhelming, really. The full BAB is nice but it's significantly more "fighter" than "mage". Why give it the ability to "spellstrike" at level 3 and then ignore the BAB progression until level 13?


That's pretty dismissive, bro. I play opposite a magus in both an adventure path and PFS. This is stuff that comes up.

Honestly, it's not meant to be dismissive. However you're complaining about issues I just don't see in the Magus. Looking at the class, I don't see how the magus has attack bonus or concentration check issues. In my experience, I've not seen magi have problems with either having a low attack bonus or consistently failing concentration checks. If your experience differs then I respect that, but I can't help but wonder if that's a problem with the class or with the build of the magus (magi?) you're seeing in play.

From what I can tell your main gripe with the magus is "it's not a duskblade". Looking over the Duskblade (googled it and I think I'm looking at the right class) I think the two classes approach "Gish" from different angles. A duskblade strikes me as a fighter who fights and occasionally cast spells. The Magus strikes me as a better-BAB wizard who combines spellcasting and combat mid-fight.


Should the magus count this as TWF?
Yes.

Should he need a hand free?
Yes.

Should he take the -2 penalty?
Yes.

Should the penalty to get a concentration bonus be from attack?
Arguably yes. I could envision a system where you trade AC for the bonus instead of attack bonus.

Should he not be allowed to make his spell the second attack out of three?
This I'm not sure about. I am assuming they phrased it that way for a reason, but I don't actually know why.

[Snowbluff]

The Magus really doesn't have the same problems. For starters, it's less MAD. It needs either strength or dex, constitution, and intelligence. It can safely dump both wisdom and charisma. Concentration checks look problematic on the surface but in play it becomes less of an issue with every level - a 1st level elf magus with a concentration trait, Combat Casting (+4) and 16 int (+3), is looking at a +12 check for a DC 17 check. At level 5 he's looking at +17 (+4 from CL, +1 from 18 int) and the hardest DC he has to beat is 19. At level 10 he has +22, and the hardest Casting Defensively DC is 23.
"Magus is fine because you can spend resources (Magic Trait, Feat, and race choice) to fix the problem. Rogue can't take feats or traits to improve their tumbling, but they should have to."

Oh, let's not forget how flexible they are! All of them should be elves, their magic trait should be the same, and they should spend their first level feat on combat casting!


I think giving the magus full BAB progression, the Spell Combat mechanic and 6th level spellcasting is overkill. That said, if you want a full BAB gish then I think the Bloodrager might be what you're looking for. And for the record I don't find Arcane Accuracy bland - Using the arcana is an interesting trade between saving arcane pool points for spells (spell recall) or long-term buffs (enchant weapon) and short-term buffs (I REALLY need to make this attack hit).
Bloodrager is a significant disappointment, and representative of the failure in Paizo's design philosophy.

If your experience differs then I respect that, but I can't help but wonder if that's a problem with the class or with the build of the magus (magi?) you're seeing in play. He's your standard scimmy magus.


From what I can tell your main gripe with the magus is "it's not a duskblade". Looking over the Duskblade (googled it and I think I'm looking at the right class) I think the two classes approach "Gish" from different angles. A duskblade strikes me as a fighter who fights and occasionally cast spells. The Magus strikes me as a better-BAB wizard who combines spellcasting and combat mid-fight.
I looked over the Duskblade and I found it a little underwhelming, really. The full BAB is nice but it's significantly more "fighter" than "mage". Why give it the ability to "spellstrike" at level 3 and then ignore the BAB progression until level 13?
Your baseless assumptions are insulting.

Duskblade is tuned for melee offense. Spellcasting is indeed secondary for them, where as it is primary casting for the magus. Repeat to yourself what you attempted to feed me about the strength magus. However, the draw of the magus is the melding of combat and magic, but they don't mixed very well in the PF rules. It's their primary basis and the problem I have with it.

EDIT: Oh, and shocking grasp/etc aren't very good at low levels. Channeling doesn't do much for the extra d6 or 2 when they have Blades of Blood on their list, which can do incredible damage for some HP and a swift action.


Yes. Yes. Yes.
Justify it, Kudaku. Make a case for the text.
Other casters may remove their hands from 2 handed weapons as free action. They don't have extra penalties attacked to their casting. They don't seem to have random subsystems added on for no reason, either.


Arguably yes. I could envision a system where you trade AC for the bonus instead of attack bonus.

This I'm not sure about. I am assuming they phrased it that way for a reason, but I don't actually know why.
I was thinking damage, they are expecting to do more damage with a spell. I wouldn't want to give them a hit in the AC. As much as I hate flat bonuses, I would just give them a bonus to Concentration for using Spell Combat.

It's Paizo. It doesn't always have to make sense. :smalltongue:

[Beowulf DW]

I'm going to have to disagree with Snow in his assessment of the Magus. I consider it an excellent mid-point between the fighter and the wizard. Having rolled up a few myself, I can personally attest to its versatility and damage dealing capabilities. I was able to contribute quite well to the party, whether I was str or dex based. Even with veteran players using Druids and clerics, I've continually seen Magi shine in a variety of situations.

[Kudaku]

"Magus is fine because you can spend resources (Magic Trait, Feat, and race choice) to fix the problem. Rogue can't take feats or traits to improve their tumbling, but they should have to." Oh, let's not forget how flexible they are! All of them should be elves, their magic trait should be the same, and they should spend their first level feat on combat casting!

Feel free to use a different race and trait for comparison, I used the last magus I saw in play for an example. Combat Casting is kind of a no-brainer for a low level magus, much like Power Attack is an obvious feat for a THF barbarian.

The point remains that magi have an easier time making Concentration checks as they level. The hardest concentration check a magus will ever take is 27, at level 16. In comparison an acrobatics check to move through threatened areas at level 16 will frequently be in the 50ies and require enough movement that you need to use Double Move or require magic for extra movement speed. Rogues have a significantly harder time making acrobatics checks as they level since CMD scales horribly compared to acrobatics checks, and even if they do make those checks they lose out on full attacks by taking them.

For the record I don't think rogues should have to take feats or traits to improve acrobatics in order to use their core class feature, because I find Acrobatics is a really awkward and unpredictable way to set up flanking and even when it works you're giving up your full attacks. I think they should have a viable way to make sneak attacks without giving up full attacks (tumbling, improved feint) or giving the one attack they get (TWF feint)that is likely to hit. Positioning Attack is a decent option but it should be something like 3+x/day, not 1/day. Ideally they should also get a way to boost their attack bonus so they're close to the attack bonus of other medium BAB classes.


Bloodrager is a significant disappointment, and representative of the failure in Paizo's design philosophy.
I didn't follow the Bloodrager playtest, so I don't have an intimate knowledge of the class. That said, aren't you a little quick to pronounce verdict on "the failure of Paizo's design philosophy"? The class isn't published till August...

He's your standard scimmy magus.
Then I'm very surprised that he's having concentration issues. What level is he?

Your baseless assumptions are insulting.
I'd hardly call them baseless, but your state is noted.

Duskblade is tuned for melee offense. Spellcasting is indeed secondary for them, where as it is primary casting for the magus. Repeat to yourself what you attempted to feed me about the strength magus. However, the draw of the magus is the melding of combat and magic, but they don't mixed very well in the PF rules. It's their primary basis and the problem I have with it. I disagree - I find that Spell Combat and Spellstrike do a very good job of melding martial combat and magic - significantly better than slapping on a "x/day Quicken Spell".

EDIT: Oh, and shocking grasp/etc aren't very good at low levels. Channeling doesn't do much for the extra d6 or 2 when they have Blades of Blood on their list, which can do incredible damage for some HP and a swift action.
An extra 1D6 damage, or 3D6 damage if you take 5 points of damage yourself? I find that... Well, not that impressive for a 1st level spell. Handy for a class that doesn't get Spell Combat, but it gets outstripped by other touch attacks quickly. It seems like a nice option for a duskblade at level 13 though.


I was thinking damage, they are expecting to do more damage with a spell. I wouldn't want to give them a hit in the AC. As much as I hate flat bonuses, I would just give them a bonus to Concentration for using Spell Combat.

Damage to Concentration could work too. I'm not sure if you know this, but it should be noted that magi do get a flat bonus to concentration from Improved Spell Combat and greater penalty synergy from Greater Spell Combat.

[Snowbluff]

I didn't follow the Bloodrager playtest, so I don't have an intimate knowledge of the class. That said, aren't you a little quick to pronounce verdict on "the failure of Paizo's design philosophy"? The class isn't published till August...
The class follows a very strict and formulaic design philosophy. It's just an angry hexblade. A lot of people wish it would have gotten more casting and/or a progression closer to the DB. I doubt stuff like that will will be changed, and they will not do anything as radical as I have considered.


Then I'm very surprised that he's having concentration issues. What level is he?
He's low level, so that might be it. He's much more effective at pure spellcraft than any fusion of that and combat.

With that in mind I would like an expanded and unique Magus spell list.


I'd hardly call them baseless, but your state is noted.
I disagree - I find that Spell Combat and Spellstrike do a very good job of melding martial combat and magic - significantly better than slapping on a "x/day Quicken Spell".
Spellstrike and Spellcombat aren't very different from Channeling and Full Channeling. DB has other options past the free quickened spells, which I think are just there to make up for the lack of ninth level slots.


An extra 1D6 damage, or 3D6 damage if you take 5 points of damage yourself? I find that... Well, not that impressive for a 1st level spell. Handy for a class that doesn't get Spell Combat, but it gets outstripped by other touch attacks quickly. It seems like a nice option for a duskblade at level 13 though.
It's effective for first and second level, though. A basic DB (before feats) would deal 5d6+4 with his greatsword by dealing 5 damage to himself. That averages to about 23 damage.

At slightly higher levels, shocking grasp is more useful, though. An optimized DB would probably opt to use Travel Devotion for more Full Attacks or Wraith Strike. DBs do get a ton of slots, so I don't think any would mind spending one here or there for some extra damage.


Damage to Concentration could work too. I'm not sure if you know this, but it should be noted that magi do get a flat bonus to concentration from Improved Spell Combat and greater penalty synergy from Greater Spell Combat.

I was thinking more along the lines of 1/3 (1/2 seems too much, 1/4 seems too little) their level, minimum 1, instead of hard breakpoints.

[Kudaku]

The class follows a very strict and formulaic design philosophy. It's just an angry hexblade. A lot of people wish it would have gotten more casting and/or a progression closer to the DB. I doubt stuff like that will will be changed, and they will not do anything as radical as I have considered.

I guess we differ on this - Paizo did playtest the class, after all. Based on my experience with the Warpriest in the last playtest, if the majority of the complaints were that it gets too few spells then they'll likely take that into account.


He's low level, so that might be it. He's much more effective at pure spellcraft than any fusion of that and combat.
That's likely it, possibly combined with a poorly designed build.

With that in mind I would like an expanded and unique Magus spell list.
...The magus has a unique spell list. It's also fairly flexible with a mix of buffs, debuffs, utility and attack spells. I think it's about three times as long as the Duskblade list.


Spellstrike and Spellcombat aren't very different from Channeling and Full Channeling.

Arcane channeling comes online at 3 and Full Channeling comes online at 13. Spell Combat and Spellstrike comes online at level 1 & 2, meaning the magus is combining full attacks and spells 12 levels before the duskblade. I'd say that's a fairly large difference as far as the gameplay of the class goes.


DB has other options past the free quickened spells, which I think are just there to make up for the lack of ninth level slots.

They do? I'm not really seeing it. Levels 1-12 the magus is getting more attacks than the Duskblade while casting spells despite having a worse BAB model, since the Duskblade is limited to a single attack while using Channel. In comparison the magus is doing a full attack + a spell + potentially a spellstrike attack.


It's effective for first and second level, though. A basic DB (before feats) would deal 5d6+4 with his greatsword by dealing 5 damage to himself. That averages to about 23 damage.

Yeah... I don't really think that's all that amazing. A 2nd level magus would do 1D6+4 (normal attack, scimitar) + 1D6+4 (Spellstrike) + 2D6 (Shocking Grasp) for an average of 20 damage while dealing 0 damage to himself. At 3rd level and higher the Shocking Grasp damage would easily outpace the Bloody Blades.


At slightly higher levels, shocking grasp is more useful, though. An optimized DB would probably opt to use Travel Devotion for more Full Attacks or Wraith Strike. DBs do get a ton of slots, so I don't think any would mind spending one here or there for some extra damage.

The spell slots is a good point, though that spell list is very disappointing. Duskblades get Wraithstrike? I don't see it on their list, but again I'm not 100% sure if the website I'm looking at is up to date.

[Snowbluff]

They do? I'm not really seeing it. Levels 1-12 the magus is getting more attacks than the Duskblade while casting spells despite having a worse BAB model, since the Duskblade is limited to a single attack while using Channel. In comparison the magus is doing a full attack + a spell + potentially a spellstrike spell.
He gets an extra hit, but odds are a magus is doing less damage on each hit.



Yeah... I don't really think that's all that amazing. A 2nd level magus would do 1D6+4 (normal attack, scimitar) + 1D6+4 (Spellstrike) + 2D6 (Shocking Grasp) for an average of 22 damage and dealing 0 damage to himself. At 3rd level and higher the Shocking Grasp damage would easily outpace the Bloody Blades.
Arcane channeling comes online at 3 and Full Channeling comes online at 13. Spell Combat and Spellstrike comes online at level 1 & 2, meaning the magus is combining full attacks and spells 12 levels before the duskblade. I'd say that's a fairly large difference as far as the gameplay of the class goes.
I assumed 16 str. That's at a higher str or dex, with feat expenditures if based on dex.

Not to mention that the DB is more likely to hit. A 16 dex Magus at level 1 is t +3 to hit, but that drops to +1 with spells combat. In 3.5. the difference between touch and regular AC is 3-4 (4 at level 2). I'm not sure if the numbers are similiar or very different in PF, but:
1d6+3 and 1d6+3+2d6 shocking grasp: 20
+2 to hit, so they need a 14 (30% chance) or higher to hit an average CR 2, meaning about 6 average.
Shocking grasp by itself would be at +4 for ~7 damage versus a touch AC of 12 for 4.2, for the record.

The 16 Str DB is dealing 5 to himself 5d6+4= 21.5
+5 to hit, so he needs a 11 (45%), so about 10 (9.675).
Without the 5 damage, it's 6.525

It's simple math, assuming the Magus rolls the same values on both attacks. A more complex equation would be more accurate. At level 1 the math is severely in the favor of the DB. Blade of Blood would still be a very powerful and competitive choice if the DB have channeling at first level.

Another reason I think the class feature is placed at 3rd level is because it works with all spell lists innately.


The spell slots is a good point, though that spell list is very disappointing. Duskblades get Wraithstrike? I don't see it on their list, but again I'm not 100% sure if the website I'm looking at is up to date.
They don't, but some people might choose to optimize to grab it on their list, or pick up UMD and place a wand of it in their Wand Chamber. Some PrCs and items may give them the spell. An Eternal Wand would let them use it twice per day, too. It's just an example of something a DB may replace Blade of Blood with.

[Kudaku]

He gets an extra hit, but odds are a magus is doing less damage on each hit.


I assumed 16 str. That's at a higher str or dex, with feat expenditures if based on dex.

I assumed a 16 strength as well, the +1 is from the arcane pool.

I'd argue a level 2 16 str magus is at +6 to hit while using SG actually, since Shocking Grasp adds +3 to hit anyone either wearing metal armor or holding a metal weapon (which I'd personally consider most enemies at level 2). +1 BAB, +1 Enhanced Weapon, +3 strength, +3 for SG, -2 for Spell Combat. Assuming there's nothing metal he is at +3 to the Duskblade's +5, but he has two attacks to discharge his Shocking Grasp to the Duskblade's single attack.


Not to mention that the DB is more likely to hit. A 16 dex Magus at level 1 is t +3 to hit, but that drops to +1 with spells combat. In 3.5. the difference between touch and regular AC is 3-4 (4 at level 2). I'm not sure if the numbers are similiar or very different in PF, but:
1d6+3 and 1d6+3+2d6 shocking grasp: 20
+2 to hit, so they need a 14 (30% chance) or higher to hit an average CR 2, meaning about 6 average.
Shocking grasp by itself would be at +4 for ~7 damage versus a touch AC of 12 for 4.2, for the record.

The 16 Str DB is dealing 5 to himself 5d6+4= 21.5
+5 to hit, so he needs a 11 (45%), so about 10 (9.675).
Without the 5 damage, it's 6.525

The DB's greater attack bonus is as noted above not entirely guaranteed. I get:

1D6+4+2D6+1D6+4 = 22 average damage. Assuming he casts his spell first he also has two Spellstrikes to discharge Shocking Grasp which would raise the chances of the SG damage getting through. However, my formula will not take that into account so his realistic DPR is likely a bit higher than what is noted here:
+6 to hit v an AC of 16(?), so the magus needs a 10, so an adjusted DPR of about 11.

If the target he is attacking is not wearing metal armor wielding a metal weapon it'd be:
+3 to hit v an AC of 16(?) so the magus needs 13, so an adjusted DPR of about 7.7.


It's simple math, assuming the Magus rolls the same values on both attacks. A more complex equation would be more accurate.

Agreed.


At level 1 the math is severely in the favor of the DB.


Debatable, as I noted with the attack bonus from Shocking Grasp. If they were both casting the same spell however, the Duskblade would be approximately +2 AB ahead.


Blade of Blood would still be a very powerful and competitive choice if the DB have channeling at first level.

I find it rather underwhelming, primarily due to the self-damage. It also seems like a very dangerous spell for the Duskblade to rely on for damage, since he is essentially killing himself with it. At level 1 a Duskblade will have ~10 HP. Losing half that to a self-inflicted spell is living rather dangerously. Since he also has an extremely short list of Spells Known (3 1st level spells known at level 2)I think he'd be better off with Shocking Grasp in general. The damage scales better, gives him a handy bonus to hit most opponents, and he can use it without killing himself.


Another reason I think the class feature is placed at 3rd level is because it works with all spell lists innately.

Personally I'd see that as a flaw rather than an advantage, but whatever floats your boat.


They don't, but some people might choose to optimize to grab it on their list, or pick up UMD and place a wand of it in their Wand Chamber. Some PrCs and items may give them the spell. An Eternal Wand would let them use it twice per day, too. It's just an example of something a DB may replace Blade of Blood with

I don't really think mixing in UMD or wands is a good idea when comparing classes. Everything you just said could also be applied to the magus for arguably greater effect, since he will overall be slightly behind the Duskblade in attack bonus.

[Snowbluff]

Debatable, as I noted with the attack bonus from Shocking Grasp. If they were both casting the same spell however, the Duskblade would be approximately +2 AB ahead. Yeah, like I said the math is complicated. They appear to have near parity.


I find it rather underwhelming, primarily due to the self-damage.
It's a lot of damage available at level 1. At level 3 it stacks with shocking grasp.



Personally I'd see that as a flaw rather than an advantage, but whatever floats your boat.
It floats my boat, but it is a (minor) flaw. It allows for more open building, but alters how they play at lower levels. I have a couple gestalt characters who takes advantage of how it works.

Putting Channeling, 1st level casting, and full BAB would probably sound crazy to you.


I don't really think mixing in UMD or wands is a good idea when comparing classes. Everything you just said could also be applied to the magus for arguably greater effect, since he will overall be slightly behind the Duskblade in attack bonus.
It was a discussion on the place of blade of blood, not as a comparison of classes. :smallsmile:

[Kurald Galain]

Interesting; I would have thought the classes to be similar in strength, but the math here shows that the Magus is actually much stronger, primarily because of the extra attack he gets.

Another point in the Magus's favor is that he can cast his Shocking Grasp twice in a row with no problem, whereas if the Duskblade does his Blade of Blood twice, he has just dropped himself unconscious. And then there's the fact that the Magus's spell list is easily twice as long as Dusky's (e.g. 49 second-level spells vs 21, or 43 third-level vs only 13), and the Magus gets his higher level spells much earlier (and for some reason has to wait four more levels for Dispel Magic).

So it looks like we have a clear winner in versatility, too.

[Kudaku]

Putting Channeling, 1st level casting, and full BAB would probably sound crazy to you.

Well, Channeling as written + full BAB is very counter-intuitive to me so I wouldn't really mind that. You're not really getting the greatest benefit of full BAB (extra attacks) until level 13, so... Seems a bit of a wash to me.


It was a discussion on the place of blade of blood, not as a comparison of classes. :smallsmile:

Then it makes even less sense to bring in UMD! :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

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[Kudaku]

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The magus should be 5D6+8 at level 3, not 5D6+6. Are you assuming two bloody blades per round? With a con of 10 that'd mean the Duskblade kills himself in less than two rounds without outside healing. God help him if the punching bag actually hits back. :smallbiggrin:

It should also be noted that the magus can Spellstrike all day long with cantrips, so he's effectively getting Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice for free while only needing to enchant one weapon (or no weapon, when he picks up Greater Magic Weapon).

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In theory we could look up CR-appropriate enemies and count which ones are armed, though to be honest I don't have the time for that. Suffice to say that most of the enemies I consider common (Goblins, orcs, kobolds etc) at level 2 will be carrying metal. It's a fair point that the magus won't always be able to use Spell Combat, in which case he grabs his scimitar with both hands and Shocking Grasp spellstrikes for 3D6+5 instead at no to-hit penalty.

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You're doing it again. :smallsigh:

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Though I haven't bothered mentioning it yet, the spell list is another point on the magus side of the scoreboard. That and the prepared spellcasting combined with spell recall makes for rather more flexible spellcasting than the (very) short fixed spell list available to the duskblade.

I still don't really see why you prefer the Duskblade to the Magus unless you really, really like fixed spell list spontaneous casters.

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A̶c̶t̶i̶v̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶W̶r̶a̶i̶t̶h̶s̶t̶r̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶.̶.̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶d̶v̶a̶n̶t̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶.̶ Ahh, they updated that. Good change. Kind of wish they updated D20SRD too though.


That said, I thought we were comparing the classes in a vacuum, without considering the merits or potential cheese available from the different systems. If that's all taken into consideration then I would expect a Duskblade x/Incantatrix y or something equally cheesy to take the championship in no time. With a few prominent exceptions (Yes, paragon surge, talking about you) I don't think the cheese smell has suffused Pathfinder to quite the same level yet.

[Snowbluff]

The magus should be 5D6+8 at level 3, not 5D6+6. Are you assuming two bloody blades per round? With a con of 10 that'd mean the Duskblade kills himself in less than two rounds without outside healing. God help him if the punching bag actually hits back. :smallbiggrin: Shocking Grasp + Blade of Blood at a higher AB.


It should also be noted that the magus can Spellstrike all day long with cantrips, so he's effectively getting Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice for free while only needing to enchant one weapon (or no weapon, when he picks up Greater Magic Weapon).
Double Slice?


In theory we could look up CR-appropriate enemies and count which ones are armed, though to be honest I don't have the time for that. Suffice to say that most of the enemies I consider common (Goblins, orcs, kobolds etc) at level 2 will be carrying metal. It's a fair point that the magus won't always be able to use Spell Combat, in which case he grabs his scimitar with both hands and Shocking Grasp spellstrikes for 3D6+5 instead at no to-hit penalty.
We would use an array of all monsters, since that's where we get the average AC. The final result would likely show that most creatures do without. Anything past that would be based on campaign.



You're doing it again. :smallsigh:
*grumble* :smallannoyed:



Though I haven't bothered mentioning it yet, the spell list is another point on the magus side of the scoreboard. That and the prepared spellcasting combined with spell recall makes for rather more flexible spellcasting than the (very) short fixed spell list available to the duskblade.

I still don't really see why you prefer the Duskblade to the Magus unless you really, really like fixed spell list spontaneous casters.
I think we covered that with the magus being more focused on spell casting. The magus list is full of neat pieces, though.

Gish work out better as spontaneous casters unless you're a heavy buffer. DB has a few spells like Stand and the like that are much better if you don't have to prepare them beforehand. Compare that to the actual variety of spells that Magus has prepared and is able to cast each day.

Fixed list spontaneous casters are among the best balanced and designed classes in 3.x. Don't knock 'em. :smalltongue:


I assumed we were comparing the classes without considering the merits or potential cheese available for the different systems. If that's all taken into consideration then I would expect a Duskblade x/Incantatrix y or something equally cheesy to take the championship in no time.
Again, that's a conversation about blade of blood and UMD. Duskblade wouldn't do so well under PF rules and feats. A lot of it's good spells, like Ray of Enfeeblement, were nerfed to needing a save, which hampers other gish-in-a-can classes like Magus. It would still probably blow the fighter out of the water, though.

[Kudaku]

Double Slice?

Double slice. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/double-slice-combat---final)


We would use an array of all monsters, since that's where we get the average AC. The final result would likely show that most creatures do without. Anything past that would be based on campaign.

No debate that the majority of enemies across the full spectrum will not use weapons. However I find that humanoids are overrepresented at lower levels, meaning there is a much higher chance that the SG bonus will come into play.


I think we covered that with the magus being more focused on spell casting. The magus list is full of neat pieces, though.

:smallsmile:


Gish work out better as spontaneous casters unless you're a heavy buffer. DB has a few spells like Stand and the like that are much better if you don't have to prepare them beforehand.

...Seriously? The Duskblade only ever gets 5 level 1 spell known, and you want one of them to be Stand (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/stand--2936/)?


Compare that to the actual variety of spells that Magus has prepared and is able to cast each day.

With Spell Recall and eventually Knowledge Pool, a spellbook, and primarily using cantrips and 1st level spells for attacking (Shocking Grasp) I find that the magus can be pretty flexible, actually. Another benefit of relying on 1st level spells for attacks is that PoPs are tremendously good value. And it just so happens he has all that WBL he's not spending on upgrading his weapons...


Fixed list spontaneous casters are among the best balanced and designed classes in 3.x. Don't knock 'em. :smalltongue:

If the Duskblade could cast off his entire list like the dread necromancer I'd agree, but near as I can tell they can't...?


Spells Known: You begin play knowing two 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells, chosen from the duskblade spell list. You also know one additional 0-level spell for each point of Intelligence bonus.


It would still probably blow the fighter out of the water, though.

Oh, no doubt. Trying to beat the fighter is setting your bar pretty low though.

[Snowbluff]

Double slice. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/double-slice-combat---final) This is a substantially crappy feat. How much damage does this really get you? 5 on a full attack at level 20? 0 if you are going Dex based?


No debate that the majority of enemies across the full spectrum will not use weapons. However I find that humanoids are overrepresented at lower levels, meaning there is a much higher chance that the SG bonus will come into play.
Again, this is a campaign thing. The difference is negligible past level 3, anyway.


...Seriously? The Duskblade only ever gets 5 level 1 spell known, and you want one of them to be Stand (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/stand--2936/)?
Sometimes you just don't want to get out of bed in the morning. Blends well with Shadow Marauder.



With Spell Recall and eventually Knowledge Pool, a spellbook, and primarily using cantrips and 1st level spells for attacking (Shocking Grasp) I find that the magus can be pretty flexible, actually. Another benefit of relying on 1st level spells for attacks is that PoPs are tremendously good value. And it just so happens he has all that WBL he's not spending on upgrading his weapons...
You weapon should be fully upgraded at all times. I think you would get more value out of that than pearls of power. Then again, weapon upgrades aren't nearly as good in PF.


If the Duskblade could cast off his entire list like the dread necromancer I'd agree, but near as I can tell they can't...?
Who said they could? It would be cool if that was the case, though.


Oh, no doubt. Trying to beat the fighter is setting your bar pretty low though.
Yeah, mundanes suck in 3.x unless they have maneuvers.

[Kudaku]

This is a substantially crappy feat. How much damage does this really get you? 5 on a full attack at level 20? 0 if you are going Dex based?

The equivalent of Double Slice, since you're always getting full ability modifier when rolling damage despite essentially TWFing via spellstrike. I agree it's a poor choice for a feat slot, but since it's free... Eh, I'll take two free subpar feats over no feats any day of the week.


Sometimes you just don't want to get out of bed in the morning. Blends well with Shadow Marauder.
I know that feeling, but I'd still prefer Vanish or Expeditious Retreat. I'll take your word on the Shadow Marauder since the only thing google delivered was a mounted shadowdancer that doesn't add Caster Levels and has some fairly gnarly class requirements (Crinti?).


You weapon should be fully upgraded at all times. I think you would get more value out of that than pearls of power. Then again, weapon upgrades aren't nearly as good in PF.

Between Arcane Pool enhancements and Greater Magic Weapon your kit is going to be at least 3 points ahead of the curve anyway, so you can afford to set aside a little bit of cash for other things. A 20th level fighter spends ~200.3k GP on his weapon, a magus spends 000.3k.


Who said they could? It would be cool if that was the case, though.

No one said that, I'm just saying that their spell list is so outrageously bad that they could have full access to it and very little would change. If anything, that would make for an interesting class - bit like a warmage, only less flexible.

...My God, I can't believe I just typed that.


Yeah, mundanes suck in 3.x unless they have maneuvers.
Kiiind of depends. I really like what Paizo did with the paladin, for instance. I still think it should have 4 skill points/level though.

[Snowbluff]

The equivalent of Double Slice, since you're always getting full ability modifier when rolling damage despite essentially TWFing via spellstrike. I agree it's a poor choice for a feat slot, but since it's free... Eh, I'll take two free subpar feats over no feats any day of the week. Indeed. :smallsmile:



I know that feeling, but I'd still prefer Vanish or Expeditious Retreat. I'll take your word on the Shadow Marauder since the only thing google delivered was a mounted shadowdancer that doesn't add Caster Levels and has some fairly gnarly class requirements (Crinti?).
Well, DBs don't get Vanish. They get Swift Invisibility instead.



Between Arcane Pool enhancements and Greater Magic Weapon your kit is going to be at least 3 points ahead of the curve anyway, so you can afford to set aside a little bit of cash for other things. A 20th level fighter spends ~200.3k GP on his weapon, a magus spends 000.3k.
Does the weapon not enhance past +10? Having a +1 weapon with 4 points of properties may be ideal.



No one said that, I'm just saying that their spell list is so outrageously bad that they could have full access to it and very little would change. If anything, that would make for an interesting class - bit like a warmage, only less flexible.

...My God, I can't believe I just typed that. It's got some solid debuffs and damage spells, as well as some utility and buffs. It's minimalistic, but an expanded, 9 level version would be better rounded than the Warmage's. It has a good assortment of swift action spells, which is what draws me.


Kiiind of depends. I really like what Paizo did with the paladin, for instance. I still think it should have 4 skill points/level though.
I don't consider Paladin mundane, but I wish they had gotten more of a caster focus. Alas, the noble paladin has been supplanted by the War Priest, which was obsolete since it's inception.

[Kudaku]

Well, DBs don't get Vanish. They get Swift Invisibility instead.

2nd level spell, Swift casting time, 1 round duration... Hm. It's interesting, but I think I prefer Vanish to be honest. At least it makes it easier to move the Duskblade around.


Does the weapon not enhance past +10? Having a +1 weapon with 4 points of properties may be ideal.

At level 20 you'd be looking at a +5 bonus from GMW and +5 in custom enhancements via Arcane Pool. I believe magic weapons cap at +10 in Pathfinder, though Mythic might have broken that threshold. Another very handy thing for the magus is "the swiss army weapon" You can carry blunt, piercing, slashing, and ranged non-magical weapons - all of which are treated as +10 and tailor-made for whatever encounter you're in as soon as you get a single Spell Combat round (or in the case of the ranged weapon, 1 buff round) going.


It's got some solid debuffs and damage spells, as well as some utility and buffs. It's minimalistic, but an expanded, 9 level version would be better rounded than the Warmage's. It has a good assortment of swift action spells, which is what draws me.

I can see the attraction of the Swift spells, but I generally find them somewhat underwhelming compared to their normal counterparts. I generally prefer Spell Combat + arcanas for getting the full spell variant up and running.


I don't consider Paladin mundane, but I wish they had gotten more of a caster focus. Alas, the noble paladin has been supplanted by the War Priest, which was obsolete since it's inception.

I see! The mundane term fluctuates, at times it's used intermingled with 'martial'. I assumed you included the paladin since I very frequently see "paladin? Just play a Crusader". I'm not sure I agree that the Paladin is being supplanted by the Warpriest... The class has a lot of potential but the jury's still out, August is going to be a very interesting month :smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

At level 20 you'd be looking at a +5 bonus from GMW and +5 in custom enhancements via Arcane Pool. I believe magic weapons cap at +10 in Pathfinder, though Mythic might have broken that threshold. Another very handy thing for the magus is "the swiss army weapon" You can carry blunt, piercing, slashing, and ranged non-magical weapons - all of which are treated as +10 and tailor-made for whatever encounter you're in as soon as you get a single Spell Combat round (or in the case of the ranged weapon, 1 buff round) going.
Hm... perhaps. I would still try and add a general ability that I could not get through my magus feature. I'm not a huge fan of PF items and the WotC ones they nerfed (Defending!), so the lost gp is nothing to me.



I can see the attraction of the Swift spells, but I generally find them somewhat underwhelming compared to their normal counterparts. I generally prefer Spell Combat + arcanas for getting the full spell variant up and running.
I prefer the third option, which is hour/level long buffs.



I see! The mundane term fluctuates, at times it's used intermingled with 'martial'. I assumed you included the paladin since I very frequently see "paladin? Just play a Crusader". I'm not sure I agree that the Paladin is being supplanted by the Warpriest... The class has a lot of potential but the jury's still out, August is going to be a very interesting month :smallsmile:
It gets a better spell progression, which will hammer out the paladin in general.

Paladin is good for having a ridiculous amount of HP available. With Fey Foundling and the Tiefling (play a Cha variant) bonus, you can rack up a huge bonus to those d6s.