Polymorph Help

[HalfQuart]

I'm currently playing a CL9 Wizard and want to use Polymorph on our BSF Paladin, and want to make sure I get all the details right. I've read lots of stuff on it, including the EVEN MORE Complete Polymorph Thread 3.5 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0), the DMG errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata), and the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), but just want to make sure I'm interpreting everything right. The specific questions/clarifications I have are if I change him into a Cave Troll (MM3):

He changes from Medium to Large, and so his armor will meld into the new form, right? In its place he'll get NA +11, +1 Dex, -1 Size. At first I thought that the armor would resize with him, but the FAQ is pretty clear that I was mistaken. Are there any tricks to get around this, like the Sizing enhancement for weapons?
His weapon would still be size Medium, so he'd get -2 to attack from it being the wrong size for him, and another -1 to hit for being Large, but with his Strength changing from 18 (+4) to 29 (+9), he'd have a net +2 to hit... right?
+5 to damage due to the change in Strength
His HP stay the same, even though his Con is changing from 16 to 27. At first I read the errata to just mean that he wouldn't heal HP as though he rested overnight, but I gather most people interpret it to mean that there is no HP change even due to the Con change?
His Reflex and Fort saves would be based off his new 13 Dex and 27 Con scores?
He'll keep all his feats, except lose his Human bonus feat, and get: Pounce, Rake, Rend, Improved Grab and Dazing Blow(Ex): DC 22 Fort or dazed

If I instead turn him into a Rhek (BoED), he gets:

NA +7 that stacks with his armor; since a Rhek is medium sized, his armor doesn't meld in; but Dex is only 10 (I think his normal is 12), so this would net him a +6 AC.
No change in his to hit or damage
Reflex and Fort saves would be based off his new 10 Dex and 19 Con scores
Keeps all his feats, except his Human bonus feat.


Have I got all that right??

Thanks!

[zingbobco000]

I'm currently playing a CL9 Wizard and want to use Polymorph on our BSF Paladin, and want to make sure I get all the details right. I've read lots of stuff on it, including the EVEN MORE Complete Polymorph Thread 3.5 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0), the DMG errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata), and the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), but just want to make sure I'm interpreting everything right. The specific questions/clarifications I have are if I change him into a Cave Troll (MM3):

He changes from Medium to Large, and so his armor will meld into the new form, right? In its place he'll get NA +11, +1 Dex, -1 Size. At first I thought that the armor would resize with him, but the FAQ is pretty clear that I was mistaken. Are there any tricks to get around this, like the Sizing enhancement for weapons?
His weapon would still be size Medium, so he'd get -2 to attack from it being the wrong size for him, and another -1 to hit for being Large, but with his Strength changing from 18 (+4) to 29 (+9), he'd have a net +2 to hit... right?
+5 to damage due to the change in Strength
His HP stay the same, even though his Con is changing from 16 to 27. At first I read the errata to just mean that he wouldn't heal HP as though he rested overnight, but I gather most people interpret it to mean that there is no HP change even due to the Con change?
His Reflex and Fort saves would be based off his new 13 Dex and 27 Con scores?
He'll keep all his feats, except lose his Human bonus feat, and get: Pounce, Rake, Rend, Improved Grab and Dazing Blow(Ex): DC 22 Fort or dazed

If I instead turn him into a Rhek (BoED), he gets:

NA +7 that stacks with his armor; since a Rhek is medium sized, his armor doesn't meld in; but Dex is only 10 (I think his normal is 12), so this would net him a +6 AC.
No change in his to hit or damage
Reflex and Fort saves would be based off his new 10 Dex and 19 Con scores
Keeps all his feats, except his Human bonus feat.


Have I got all that right??

Thanks!

I believe he keeps the bonus feat as it's him turning into the monster not the monster turning into him.

[Duke of Urrel]

He changes from Medium to Large, and so his armor will meld into the new form, right? In its place he'll get NA +11, +1 Dex, -1 Size. At first I thought that the armor would resize with him, but the FAQ is pretty clear that I was mistaken. Are there any tricks to get around this, like the Sizing enhancement for weapons?

I think you understand the rules and the FAQ correctly. I don't know any tricks to get around the armor-sizing problem. Sorry!


His weapon would still be size Medium, so he'd get -2 to attack from it being the wrong size for him, and another -1 to hit for being Large, but with his Strength changing from 18 (+4) to 29 (+9), he'd have a net +2 to hit... right?

I agree.


+5 to damage due to the change in Strength

I agree again.


His HP stay the same, even though his Con is changing from 16 to 27. At first I read the errata to just mean that he wouldn't heal HP as though he rested overnight, but I gather most people interpret it to mean that there is no HP change even due to the Con change?

I don't know what most other people do, but I always follow the rule that the Polymorph spell heals HPs as though the subject had rested overnight. I agree that the Constitution change has no effect on the subject's HP level.


His Reflex and Fort saves would be based off his new 13 Dex and 27 Con scores?

I agree. This is one of the places where the changed Constitution score really makes a difference. The subject's Base Save Bonuses do not change, because these are derived from the subject's class levels.


He'll keep all his feats, except lose his Human bonus feat, and get: Pounce, Rake, Rend, Improved Grab and Dazing Blow(Ex): DC 22 Fort or dazed.

Yes, I agree.


I believe he keeps the bonus feat as it's him turning into the monster not the monster turning into him.

I disagree with ZingBob. The "Sage" of the FAQ (2008, on page 87) interprets the human bonus feat and human racial bonus skill points as extraordinary racial traits that a polymorphed subject should lose, and I accept this interpretation, for the most part. However, I consider these racial traits to be ordinary rather than extraordinary – following the "Sage's" own advice (on page 88), which is that "Unless a racial trait is specifically referred to elsewhere as an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability (such as blindsense or damage reduction), it isn’t any of those." The human bonus feat and the human bonus skill points are not, to my knowledge, identified anywhere as extraordinary (except on page 87 of the FAQ); therefore, I consider them to be ordinary. Consequently, you shouldn't lose your human racial bonus feat or your human racial bonus skill points when you use the Alter Self spell. You should lose these ordinary racial traits only when you change your creature type or subtype, for example using the Polymorph spell.

I also don't like the way the "Sage" of the FAQ proposes to eliminate the human bonus feat and human bonus skill points. I propose the following solutions instead:

1. Eliminate the most recent feat the human subject added. I don't consider any one of a human's feats to be more "human" than the others. I also don't like the idea that a polymorphed human should lose not only the first or second feat he or she ever gained, but also every other feat for which the lost feat was a prerequisite. Instead, just eliminate the most recently added feat. The way I see it, being human means that you have one extra feat. Being a human polymorphed into a non-Humanoid creature should mean that you lose one feat – and only one.

2. Likewise, I don't consider any one of a human's skills to be more "human" than the others. So here's what I propose to do. Divide the sum of 4 plus your character level (which represents the number of human bonus skill points you have) by the number of skills you have, drop any fraction, and convert to a negative number. The result is the penalty you must add to every skill check for as long as you are polymorphed, to reflect the fact that you are have lost your human bonus skill points. It's okay by me if this penalty turns out to be zero.

Since I don't have the BoED, I'll refrain from commenting on the Rhek.

[Incanur]

According to a May 2004 Rules of the Game article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a), bonus hp from Con do change according to the new form's Con score:


Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score.

[Vogonjeltz]

Alter Self:
Same type as normal form
Within one size category of normal size
Max HD of 5 at 5th level

Doesn't Change:
Ability scores, Class and Level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses remain the same.
Retain All Supernatural and Spell-like special attacks and qualities of normal form remain, except those that require a body part the new form lacks (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
Retain all Extraordinary special attacks and qualities from class levels.
Retain spellcasting ability, new form must be able to speak intelligably to use verbal components, and have limbs capable of fine motor control for somatic or material components.
Mind.
Does not gain any supernatural special attacks or special qualities, or spell-like abilities.
Creature Type and Subtype remain the same.
Any equipment worn or held either remains, if the new form is capable of wearing or holding it, or melds into the new form and becomes non-functional.

Changes:
Lose all Extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from form.
Gain all physical qualities of the new form: Natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying, or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

Restrictions:
Can not take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn't change the type or subtype.


Polymorph: As Alter Self except:
Except another form of living creature.
Same type or change to: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.
Form HD can not exceed your Caster Level, or the subject's HD, whichever is lower. Maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.

No size smaller than Fine.
No Incorporeal form.
No Gaseous form.

Changes:
Type and any subtype change to match new form.
Regain any missing hp as if resting for one night.
Gain Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of new form.
Gain all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as constrict, improved grab, and poison)

Doesn't change:
Retain original Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma scores.
Does not gain extraordinary special qualities (such as blindsense, fast healing, regeneration, and scent)
Does not gain any Supernatural abilities.
Does not gain any spell-like abilities.



Polymorph Subschool:
Unless otherwise noted in the spell's description, the subject of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the assumed form in place of its own except as follows:

-If the subject has the shapechanger subtype, it retains that subtype.
-Subject retains own alignment and personality, within the limits of the assumed forms ability scores.
-Subject retains own hit points.
-Subject is treated as having own HD for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as sleep spell, though it uses the assumed form's base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
-Subject retains the ability to understand the languages it understands in its normal form. If the assumed form is normally capable of speech, the subject retains the ability to speak these languages as well. It can write the languages it understands, but only if the assumed form is capable of writing in some manner-even a primative manner, such as drawing in the dirt with a paw.

In all other ways, the subject's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the assumed form. The subject loses all special abilities it has in its natural form, including its class features, even if the assumed form would normally be able to use those class features.

If the assumed form's size is different from the subject's normal size, its new space must share as much of the natural form's space as possible, squeezing into the available space (see Squeezing, page 148) if necessary. If insufficient space exists for the assumed form, the spell fails.

Any gear worn or carried by the subject melds into the assumed form and becomes nonfunctional. When the subject reverts to its natural form, any objects previously melded into the assumed form reappear in the same location on its body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the subject's feet.


Based on this, if you change him into a troll:
1. Yes, his size changes, (maximum size change is based on alter self, one size category). If the armor is capable of resizing to fit a large creature (magic armor) it is retained. Otherwise, it subsumes.
2. Yes, the weapon would still be medium sized and he'd have a -2 penalty to wielding it. The numbers you have presented for changed strength seem accurate.
4. Hit points remain the same, however the Con modifier would change, so bonus hit points would increase accordingly.
5. Correct, the base saves remain the same, the modifiers change.
6. Yes, as long as those are only listed as extraordinary special attacks and not special qualities.

[Cruiser1]

I also don't like the way the "Sage" of the FAQ proposes to eliminate the human bonus feat and human bonus skill points. I propose the following solutions instead:
Actually, I don't like eliminating the human bonus feat at all on polymorph. If that happens, then a non-human creature polymorphing into a human should gain a bonus feat. Being able to cast a spell and pick any feat you want is very powerful. It's actually makes human one of the worst races to play, because its bonus feat is set in stone. :smallyuk:

My proposal is simply to have polymorph not eliminate or gain the human bonus feat (and human skills which is another bookkeeping nightmare). In other words, polymorph effects distinguish between your base race and your current race. This distinction is already in the game to some degree with the Augmented subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype) that remembers and preserves certain things from your original creature type, when you polymorph into a different type.

[Duke of Urrel]

According to a May 2004 Rules of the Game article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a), bonus hp from Con do change according to the new form's Con score:

This is why I read these threads!

I stand corrected. Now I have to go and add this to my notes. Many thanks, Incanur!

[zingbobco000]

I disagree with ZingBob. The "Sage" of the FAQ (2008, on page 87) interprets the human bonus feat and human racial bonus skill points as extraordinary racial traits that a polymorphed subject should lose, and I accept this interpretation, for the most part. However, I consider these racial traits to be ordinary rather than extraordinary – following the "Sage's" own advice (on page 88), which is that "Unless a racial trait is specifically referred to elsewhere as an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability (such as blindsense or damage reduction), it isn’t any of those." The human bonus feat and the human bonus skill points are not, to my knowledge, identified anywhere as extraordinary (except on page 87 of the FAQ); therefore, I consider them to be ordinary. Consequently, you shouldn't lose your human racial bonus feat or your human racial bonus skill points when you use the Alter Self spell. You should lose these ordinary racial traits only when you change your creature type or subtype, for example using the Polymorph spell.

I also don't like the way the "Sage" of the FAQ proposes to eliminate the human bonus feat and human bonus skill points. I propose the following solutions instead:

1. Eliminate the most recent feat the human subject added. I don't consider any one of a human's feats to be more "human" than the others. I also don't like the idea that a polymorphed human should lose not only the first or second feat he or she ever gained, but also every other feat for which the lost feat was a prerequisite. Instead, just eliminate the most recently added feat. The way I see it, being human means that you have one extra feat. Being a human polymorphed into a non-Humanoid creature should mean that you lose one feat – and only one.

2. Likewise, I don't consider any one of a human's skills to be more "human" than the others. So here's what I propose to do. Divide the sum of 4 plus your character level (which represents the number of human bonus skill points you have) by the number of skills you have, drop any fraction, and convert to a negative number. The result is the penalty you must add to every skill check for as long as you are polymorphed, to reflect the fact that you are have lost your human bonus skill points. It's okay by me if this penalty turns out to be zero.

Since I don't have the BoED, I'll refrain from commenting on the Rhek.

Except if you think about it like life, the ability to have a bonus feat is described as "Humans are quick to master specialized tasks and varied in their talents." So that is like saying having the ability to use a weapon (the human bonus feat weapon proficiency) and then forgetting it because of polymorph. Does that sound right? It says the brain is unchanged (mental stats) but physical stats are. How would physical changes change the ability to know how to hold a sword.

[Duke of Urrel]

Except if you think about it like life, the ability to have a bonus feat is described as "Humans are quick to master specialized tasks and varied in their talents." So that is like saying having the ability to use a weapon (the human bonus feat weapon proficiency) and then forgetting it because of polymorph. Does that sound right? It says the brain is unchanged (mental stats) but physical stats are. How would physical changes change the ability to know how to hold a sword.

It's not always a good idea to argue "from life" in D&D. Sure, it makes sense, but D&D can't make too much sense without ceasing to be a fantasy.

I explain the loss of a feat and the imposition of a skill penalty as an effect of disorientation. The old Version Two AD&D imposed disorientation penalties for polymorphing. Version 3.5 replaces disorientation with the loss of extraordinary special qualities, for example the loss of Darkvision for dwarves and the loss of Low-Light Vision for elves and gnomes. Only the Shapechange spell replaces these lost extraordinary special qualities with those of the target form. So it's only fair (arguably) that humans should lose something comparable when they are polymorphed.

The "Sage" of the FAQ himself admits that "For ease of play, some DMs ignore" the rule that the human bonus feat and human bonus skill points should be lost when humans are polymorphed. So both you and Cruiser1 are explicitly granted the right to reject this rule.

[zingbobco000]

It's not always a good idea to argue "from life" in D&D. Sure, it makes sense, but D&D can't make too much sense without ceasing to be a fantasy.

I explain the loss of a feat and the imposition of a skill penalty as an effect of disorientation. The old Version Two AD&D imposed disorientation penalties for polymorphing. Version 3.5 replaces disorientation with the loss of extraordinary special qualities, for example the loss of Darkvision for dwarves and the loss of Low-Light Vision for elves and gnomes. Only the Shapechange spell replaces these lost extraordinary special qualities with those of the target form. So it's only fair (arguably) that humans should lose something comparable when they are polymorphed.

The "Sage" of the FAQ himself admits that "For ease of play, some DMs ignore" the rule that the human bonus feat and human bonus skill points should be lost when humans are polymorphed. So both you and Cruiser1 are explicitly granted the right to reject this rule.

Yeah, ok. Good point.

[Mnemnosyne]

If the human bonus feat is lost on polymorphing, then it is also gained on polymorphing, as Cruiser1 said. If you go with that interpretation, keep in mind it means really increasing the power of nonhuman spellcasters, and decreasing that of humans. Any nonhuman spellcaster can now polymorph into a human and gain any bonus feat he wants; it's essentially the same benefit as taking two levels of the Chameleon class, triggered every time you polymorph. This especially benefits spontaneous casters, who can cast polymorph in order to gain Extra Spell (whatever I need right now) and grab any spell they happen to want at the moment. This gets really valuable with shapechange, although I suppose at that point there's so many ways you're breaking things that this one is small, but being able to have a new spell available every round, of up to one level lower than your highest available, is pretty damned good.

[Incanur]

If the human bonus feat is lost on polymorphing, then it is also gained on polymorphing, as Cruiser1 said. If you go with that interpretation, keep in mind it means really increasing the power of nonhuman spellcasters, and decreasing that of humans. Any nonhuman spellcaster can now polymorph into a human and gain any bonus feat he wants; it's essentially the same benefit as taking two levels of the Chameleon class, triggered every time you polymorph. This especially benefits spontaneous casters, who can cast polymorph in order to gain Extra Spell (whatever I need right now) and grab any spell they happen to want at the moment. This gets really valuable with shapechange, although I suppose at that point there's so many ways you're breaking things that this one is small, but being able to have a new spell available every round, of up to one level lower than your highest available, is pretty damned good.

That's pretty cool trick, but in all cases and especially with shapechange as a DM I'd just be glad they weren't completely breaking the game by turning into a chronotyryn, zodar, elemental weird, etc. With alter self it's pretty darn awesome for sorcerers, though. I do think losing/gaining the human bonus feat is silly, but 3.5 polymorphing is a total train wreck overall. (I'd say the same thing about 3.x overall, but that's getting too far off topic.) I recommend switching to the Pathfinder polymorphing rules.