Reasonably optimized Cleric/Crusader/X?

[Petioni]

I want to heal people while hitting things so as feats I have: TWF, Divine spirit, and martial study.
I have war domain so I have weapon focus with both of my martial weapons and am thinking of getting an animated shield, thoughts?
I know TWF isn't the greatest thing but I am a thematic chaos cleric before an optimizer, so within the constraints of my build so far where should I go from 1 Crusader/4 Cleric?
P.S. I am a melee heavy cleric with not a lot of ranged options so one or two of those would be nice.

[John Longarrow]

Three questions:

By "while punching things" do you mean unarmed attacks or something else?

Where in you level progression did you take Crusader and what did you get from Martial Study?

What are your "Martial Weapons"?

[Deadline]

Have a look at the Ruby Knight Vindicator in the Tome of Battle. If the Wee Jas fluff doesn't do it for you, get your GM to let you refluff it to another deity.

[Petioni]

Three questions:

By "while punching things" do you mean unarmed attacks or something else?

Where in you level progression did you take Crusader and what did you get from Martial Study?

What are your "Martial Weapons"?

Fixed that "punching" to "hitting" I am using bladed gauntlets.
Crusader was after the 4 levels of Cleric to bridge a BAB gap.
Martial study gave me the setting sun maneuvers step of the wind and devastating throw for battlefield control.
This is only my second d&d character so I understand if I wasted feats or whatever, I am still very much a WIP and am still researching very heavily.

[John Longarrow]

If you take martial study PRIOR to taking an initiator class, you can't reset it during combat. I'd talk to your DM about retraining it so you can use it as one of your crusader maneuvers know.

When I get off work and can look through my books I'll see if I can find a prestige class you can get into to help with both BAB and casting.

[GreyBlack]

Fixed that "punching" to "hitting" I am using bladed gauntlets.
Crusader was after the 4 levels of Cleric to bridge a BAB gap.
Martial study gave me the setting sun maneuvers step of the wind and devastating throw for battlefield control.
This is only my second d&d character so I understand if I wasted feats or whatever, I am still very much a WIP and am still researching very heavily.

Stop. You're going for Chuck. Breaking games is bad.

[Petioni]

Stop. You're going for Chuck. Breaking games is bad.

I didn't even know what a chuck was so I looked it up and I am not going RKV because I don't want to break the game, Like I said, I had (and still have) a theme I put before optimization.

[sakuuya]

I didn't even know what a chuck was so I looked it up and I am not going RKV because I don't want to break the game, Like I said, I had (and still have) a theme I put before optimization.

RKV isn't as broken as people think it is, because Divine Impetus is a supernatural ability.



Supernatural Abilities (SU)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.


Emphasis mine. So Divine Impetus isn't "get as many free extra swift actions as you have Turn attempts to spare," which is game-breaking, but rather "trade a standard action for an extra swift action," which is situationally useful.

That's not to say RKV isn't good. It gives decent maneuver progression, good spell progression, and some handy abilities. Plus, it was built specifically for Cleric/Crusaders, so of course it's a great choice for someone looking to advance both those classes. If you're dead set on avoiding it, though, I'd recommend refluffing Ordained Champion instead--full BAB and 3/5 spell progression, but as-written, it's for followers of Hextor or Hieronius. Looking through Cleric-focused prestige classes, actually, it seems like chaotic clerics are really underserved compared to their lawful counterparts. Hunh.

[John Longarrow]

Basically anything that keeps your caster level going will do good by you. Cleric is pretty awesome on its own.

That said, Hospitaler isn't bad if you want to do the crusading knight in armor deal. It is kinda a paladin light. Depends on how you want your character to progress. As is it sounds like you are more into the "Melee hitting things" mode for this character.

[GreyBlack]

I didn't even know what a chuck was so I looked it up and I am not going RKV because I don't want to break the game, Like I said, I had (and still have) a theme I put before optimization.

Okay, that was a little harsh on my part. RKVis most fitting prestige class for a Cleric/Crusader combo. It progresses your IL, spellcasting, and gives you some neat perks to play with. I more said that it reminded me of Chuck because of your choice to add in Setting Sun, which can potentially be a game breaker.

In the end, the player determines your potential for power in the game setting. If you don't want to play a batman wizard, but still want to use the wizard class, by all means. Some of us (especially myself) have a tendency to see the potential to optimize. So, to answer the OP, RKV is your best choice for Crusader/Cleric. It is frighteningly powerful if you want it to be, but does not have to be.

[Andezzar]

Martial study gave me the setting sun maneuvers step of the wind and devastating throw for battlefield control.Martial Study only gives you ONE maneuver. Did you take the Feat twice?

[Xerlith]

A better "paladin-light" option would be a Prestige Paladin dip followed by maybe Knight of the Raven or Fist of Raziel.
I had a build somewhere... Well, nevermind.
Cleric/Crusader/RKV is a perfectly viable build that doesn't have (that much) capability of breaking the game, as his swift actions aren't unlimited after all.

[Petioni]

Martial Study only gives you ONE maneuver. Did you take the Feat twice?
The key skill becomes a class skill it says, and then it says to pick one maneuver. I must have misinterpreted that.

[Chronos]

Ruby Knight Vindicator can be broken, if you put some effort into it. If you don't try to break it, though, it's no more broken than straight cleric.

[squiggit]

Stop. You're going for Chuck. Breaking games is bad.

What? Nothing he described in his build is even particularly powerful in the first place. Not sure where you're getting that he's breaking anything.


Ruby Knight Vindicator can be broken, if you put some effort into it. If you don't try to break it, though, it's no more broken than straight cleric.

Which isn't saying much because you can break damn near everything with some effort.

[Feint's End]

RKV isn't as broken as people think it is, because Divine Impetus is a supernatural ability.

I doubt it is RAI that you need a standardaction for it. I think that falls under design flaws. It's similar to the Xeph supernatural speed ability which should have been swift action from the start (which the brilliant minds of DSP promptly fixed in the Pathfinder conversion).

Getting a lot of swift actions isn't broken in most games and not really that bad until high levels of optimization. I also assume that most groups don't know about/don't use nightsticks.
At high levels of optimization we are talking CoDzilla and Incantatrix though, next to whom the Ruby Knight Vindicator looks pretty poor.

Is it abuseable? Absolutely but so are most classes especially of the stronger tiers.