Gaining the Dragon Magic class feature

[Snowbluff]

I want to see if I can get it with Hybrid or Multiclass options. I'm interested in picking up the Ancient Soul feat, but I don't want to go all out rebreather, and I was thinking about adding another role to the combo.

[GPuzzle]

The Sorcerer's sole Hybrid Talent (Spell Source, features Dragon/Wild/Storm/Cosmic Magic) allow you to pick it up.

However, it won't get the +STR to damage if I'm not mistaken.

[NecroRebel]

However, it won't get the +STR to damage if I'm not mistaken.

Hybrid sorcerers get to choose between +Dex and +Str to damage on sorcerer powers anyway.

[GPuzzle]

Ancient Soul turns it into an Arcane Power, which means you can use Arcane Admixture - Thunder, Dragon Breath and it counts towards the +STR/DEX mod to damage, if you're a straight Sorcerer, not an Hybrid.

[Snowbluff]

The Sorcerer's sole Hybrid Talent (Spell Source, features Dragon/Wild/Storm/Cosmic Magic) allow you to pick it up.

However, it won't get the +STR to damage if I'm not mistaken.

*examines closesly* Ya know, I didn't catch the last line that gave you the spell source for prereqs, thanks.

I am thinking about doing some silly Paladin combo, but Hybrid Marks suck. I think I might look for a full version (Soldier of the Faith should do), and add on Radiant Breath (so I don't have to spent a paragon feat on admixture yet), and Daunting Breath (Mass marking, does this use my paladin mark?). Hurl Breath would let me hit myself for the recharge.

I'll need some radiant resist, though. That way I won't take so much damage.

I'll take Ninefold Master to add Str to dragon breath, and I'll get a third damage type (Admixture) and resistance (Ninefold Master) at 16.

Maybe I'll take Freezing Breath + World Serpent's Grasp.

[Inevitability]

I agree that hybrid marks aren't that powerful, but the paladin gets away relatively good.

You get free-action punishment, can mark at range, and still deal a bit of damage.

Actually, if I were to make a hybrid defender, paladin would be just second after swordmage.

[GPuzzle]

*examines closesly* Ya know, I didn't catch the last line that gave you the spell source for prereqs, thanks.

I am thinking about doing some silly Paladin combo, but Hybrid Marks suck. I think I might look for a full version (Soldier of the Faith should do), and add on Radiant Breath (so I don't have to spent a paragon feat on admixture yet), and Daunting Breath (Mass marking, does this use my paladin mark?). Hurl Breath would let me hit myself for the recharge.

I'll need some radiant resist, though. That way I won't take so much damage.

I'll take Ninefold Master to add Str to dragon breath, and I'll get a third damage type (Admixture) and resistance (Ninefold Master) at 16.

Maybe I'll take Freezing Breath + World Serpent's Grasp.

The Hybrid mark is just like the Paladin's normal mark, but you need to check Divine Power.
First, Divine Sanctions. A cornerstone of the Paladin's defending. Mark everyone in sight, then mark some more.
Draconic Challenge makes it so your Dragon Breath slaps a Mass-Sanction.

Also, in that case, do not pick up a PP, if you do, your hybrid talent must be Paladin Armor Proficiency. You can eve use light armor with it!

[Snowbluff]

Hmm... I want the PP I think.
Paladin/Sorc Ninefold Master
1: Hybrid Talent (Dragon Soul)
2: Hurl Breath
4: Draconic Challenge
6: Ancient Soul
8: World Serpent Grasp
10: Draconic Spellcaster
11: Frost Breath

This should let me control movement. Unfortunately, hitting myself will cause me to slow myself. I think the other option is Morning Lord, which would let me deal large amounts of damage to marked targets at 16. If my Str + the enhancement of my symbol is somehow less than 10, this would be a good option.

Other feat ideas:
Power of the Sun: Impose Radiant Vulnerability that won't hit me.
Mighty Crusader Expertise: Avoid OA
Opportunity Breath: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Leather Armor Prof


I'll be focusing on defensive powers, I think. I already mark/slow/prone on breath.
At-Wills: Dragon Frost, Enfeebling Strike
Encounter1: Tempest Breath (Sorc)
Daily1: Majestic Halo (Pal)
Utility2: Virtue (Pal)
Encounter3: Hold Fast (Pal, DP)
Daily 5: Palest Flames (Sorc)
Utility6: Sudden Scales (Sorc)
Daily7: Price of Cowardice (Pal, DP)
Daily9: Adamantine Echo (Sorc)
Utility10: Narrow Escape (Sorc)

[Tegu8788]

I built a Rebreather using Sanctions, pure Sorcerer MC Paladin, and it worked a lot better. It took a few levels to really pay off, but getting it to be a ranged attack is top priority. You don't want them next to you. Use thunder to increase the burst, then add in radiant for vulnerabilities. You'll have a solid Cha score so your Sanctions will still burn bad guys plenty. Granted, you will occasionally need to use a power besides Dragon Breath to recharge, but it can get pretty nasty. The biggest thing to worry about is finding a way around all the little damages you'll take to recharge, and having a controller that can keep everyone you have marked from getting to your robed butt.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, I was thinking about making it straight sorcerer. I chose Dragon Frost because it would let me recharge the breath by itself. My damage isn't going to be *huge*, so my resist 10 should be enough to keep my from going splat. Ninefold Master would give me a second resist, and then I could admixture Thundering into the mix. After that, I can put on Draconic Arrogance to Prone and Push for double str damage, which can't be dealt to me.

I think it might open up a feat if I were to drop Ninefold Master and go straight Sorc. I'll need to replace Hybrid Talent with a Paladin MC feat, but I could drop Draconic Caster.

I'm looking into improve AC. One of my dailies gives a power bonus, but that's only 1/rest.

[tcrudisi]

Yeah, I was thinking about making it straight sorcerer. I chose Dragon Frost because it would let me recharge the breath by itself. My damage isn't going to be *huge*, so my resist 10 should be enough to keep my from going splat. Ninefold Master would give me a second resist, and then I could admixture Thundering into the mix. After that, I can put on Draconic Arrogance to Prone and Push for double str damage, which can't be dealt to me.

I think it might open up a feat if I were to drop Ninefold Master and go straight Sorc. I'll need to replace Hybrid Talent with a Paladin MC feat, but I could drop Draconic Caster.

I'm looking into improve AC. One of my dailies gives a power bonus, but that's only 1/rest.

Do remember that Sorcs natively pierce certain damage types equal to their resist. This can be problematic.

You: "I resist 15 cold so I only take 3 damage!"
DM: "You pierce 15 cold so you take 18 damage!"

[Snowbluff]

Do remember that Sorcs natively pierce certain damage types equal to their resist. This can be problematic.

You: "I resist 15 cold so I only take 3 damage!"
DM: "You pierce 15 cold so you take 18 damage!"

... SO! I am looking for a way to gain large amounts of life. :smalltongue:

Where this is right now:
1: Paladin MC
2: Ancient Soul
4: Draconic Challenge
6: Mark of the Storm
8: Hurl Breath
10: World Serpent's Grasp
11: Frost Breath

With a possible option to swap WSG and Frost Breath for Thundering Breath and Radiant Breath (TR-TR-TRIPLE DAMAGE TYPE), with Morning Lord as the PP. I'm worried about pushing people out of consecutive blasts, but w/e.

I could use a theme.

EDIT: 3 things.
I want immunity to Daze for Concussive Breath at epic.

Would Thundering Breath technically add the 2 other damage types to cold breath? Would I people to slow people who are hit by a Thunder/Lightning with Frost Breath? :smallconfused:

Maybe another build idea would be to cause ongoing damage to myself to recharge the breath 1/round. Then I pick up a feat to make it target enemies only, and add on the debuffs.

[GPuzzle]

If you have Breath Admixture, yes.
Also, since you're MC'ing Paladin already and need health, power-swap for Virtue, and try getting a background that trains you in Religion so you can pick up Deliverance of Faith.

[masteraleph]

Standard theme for rebreathers is Sensate. Dragonbreath is an encounter attack power; every time you use it you gain temp hp = half your level.

[Snowbluff]

If you have Breath Admixture, yes. I reread the 3 feats. Frost Breath doesn't require that I deal cold damage with that hit. Adaptable Breath allows me to meet the prereqs for the feat.

On the little more iffy side, Thundering Breath adds or replaces your breath damage types regardless.

Using Admixture Breath would be a mistake. As far as I can tell, Ancient Soul would qualify for Arcane Admixture, which saves a feat.


Also, since you're MC'ing Paladin already and need health, power-swap for Virtue, and try getting a background that trains you in Religion so you can pick up Deliverance of Faith.

What's the source for deliverance of faith?

[Tegu8788]

This link will answer that for you. (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx#)

[Snowbluff]

This link will answer that for you. (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx#)
Thank you thank you thank you! No one posting 4e stuff does their sources! This is awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[Tegu8788]

...because we all use that. It's the official search tool.

[Snowbluff]

...because we all use that. It's the official search tool.

Holdin' out on me. Not to mention that 385 has THE PERFECT PP for the controller style breather!!!11 :smalltongue:

Argentum Agent gives me Admixture Breath and Frost Breath for free (essentially), with no feat tax like Ninefold Master.

Sorcerer Argentum Agent
Lightning Dragon Magic and breath weapon
1: Ancient Soul
2: Hurl Breath
4: World Serpent's Grasp
6: (Martial MC)
8:
10: -> Draconic Arrogance
11: Thundering Breath

Slow Prone Push. Potential to weaken available in the build.

[Chambers]

If you don't mind having a Defender Aura instead of a Mark the Hybrid Cavalier gets the Cavalier's full Defender Aura feature and Punishment without needing Hybrid Talent. You can take Paladin powers to get Divine Sanction.

[Snowbluff]

Interesting idea. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

Speaking of which, did they ever do a Hybrid Knight? I mean, I love the MBA with the Aura, and a stance would be pretty sweet.

[Inevitability]

Nope, the original 4 essentials classes didn't get a hybrid, probably because they are so close to their original classes.

[Tegu8788]

I recommend MCing into any of the Paladin classes, because once you do you can apply DS to every enemy hit by your breath, and the mark punishment is full on all of them. Which means you can become a full time defender as well.

[Snowbluff]

Nope, the original 4 essentials classes didn't get a hybrid, probably because they are so close to their original classes.
Ugh, but the Knight would make such a good piece of Hybrid bait. It'd be so much better than the cavalier for a bunch of MBA builds.

I recommend MCing into any of the Paladin classes, because once you do you can apply DS to every enemy hit by your breath, and the mark punishment is full on all of them. Which means you can become a full time defender as well.

The controller build "needs" fighter for Draconic Arrogance to do some strikery business. Should I Hybrid Paladin then MC Fighter, or the other way around? :smalltongue:

How are the sub-paladin MC options?

Here's an alternate Argentum Agent progression, with another debuff:
1: Ancient Soul
2: Paladin MC
4: World Serpent's Grasp (slow)
6: Adaptable Breath (poison)
8: Draconic Chalange (Divine Sanction)
10: -> Toxic Breath (weaken)
11: Thundering Breath (push)
I would focus on using At-Wills to recharge my breath. It's less cheesy that way, and I the debuffs won't stack that heavily.
Lightning breath has the added bonus of synergizing with the lightning at-will. Since Lightning Strike can be use to zap me a little, it does a good job refilling an empty breath without hurting me too much. Can I intentionally fail a save versus a save ends effect?

This is so much fun. Thanks guys. ^^

[tcrudisi]

If you hybrid, your Sorc bonus damage will only apply to your Sorc spells. Guess what dragon breath isn't?

Why are you wanting to mark, anyway? If it's just for the bonus damage when pushing and knocking prone then you are right: you only need a Fighter MC. The other defender MC's are worthless. If you are wanting it to actually be a full time defender then you are going to have problems since 4e makes it very difficult to do 2 jobs really well. (In this case, striking and defending.)

[Snowbluff]

A hyrbid striker-oriented one would be taking the Ninefold Master Paragon Path, which makes Dragon Breath count as a sorcerer power.

[GPuzzle]

If you hybrid, your Sorc bonus damage will only apply to your Sorc spells. Guess what dragon breath isn't?

Why are you wanting to mark, anyway? If it's just for the bonus damage when pushing and knocking prone then you are right: you only need a Fighter MC. The other defender MC's are worthless. If you are wanting it to actually be a full time defender then you are going to have problems since 4e makes it very difficult to do 2 jobs really well. (In this case, striking and defending.)

More or less.

Well, you see, if she spends some feats on Armor+Shield and MC's Paladin, she can be a great off-defender by multimarking and actually punishing them for attacking her (remember, Dragon Sorcerers are really freaking hard to kill, and are masters of defensive immediates) without locking her into a single Paragon Path.

Also, I recommend specialisation, not diversification, because while Poison is nice, any resistances to Poison and you can do NOTHING.

Remember, the Rebreather combo uses the Dragon Breath to recharge Dragon Breath (weird, I know, but what can you do?), by using Nusemnee's Atonement (which is a feat) and allows you to redirect the damage from an Arcane power into yourself. Which causes an infinite cycle with Dragon Breath. Pick up the Sensate character theme, since one of its benefits is gaining THP equal to one-half of your level every time you use your Dragon Breath, if I remember correctly.

[Snowbluff]

Poison resistance is useless against the build alone. The objective was to assemble debuffs, and so Argentum Agent was a natural option that effectively negates poison resistance. Not to mention learning the poison type was only a step towards obtaining the Weakened status.

Not breathing on myself would be nice for the controller style build. Since the objective isn't damage, just piling on debuffs then tossing the guy, I don't need to breath more than once with that build.

I like Hurl Breath better. I'm more of a solo dude. Atonement is a better option in a lot of ways, though.

[windgate]

Do remember that Sorcs natively pierce certain damage types equal to their resist. This can be problematic.

You: "I resist 15 cold so I only take 3 damage!"
DM: "You pierce 15 cold so you take 18 damage!"

The exact wording is critical here. Ive seen mutliple arguments about rebreather sorcs as a result.

Pulled from the online compendium:

"Dragon Soul: Choose a damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder. You gain resist 5 to that damage type. The resistance increases to 10 at 11th level and 15 at 21st level. Your arcane powers ignore any target's resistance to that damage type up to the value of your resistance."

In my Opinion:
""Up to" =/= "Equal to"

I say this because "up to X" sound to me like a variable amount.

If my resistance is 10, I should be allowed to peirce by any value ranging from 0 - 10. The confusion im faced with is whether that has to be consistant to all attacks.

[windgate]

If you hybrid, your Sorc bonus damage will only apply to your Sorc spells. Guess what dragon breath isn't?

Why are you wanting to mark, anyway? If it's just for the bonus damage when pushing and knocking prone then you are right: you only need a Fighter MC. The other defender MC's are worthless. If you are wanting it to actually be a full time defender then you are going to have problems since 4e makes it very difficult to do 2 jobs really well. (In this case, striking and defending.)

Ninefold master Paragon Path:
"Breath Expertise (11th level): Your dragon breath power is considered an arcane power belonging to each of your arcane classes. If you are wielding an implement you can use for your arcane powers, you may add the implement’s enhancement bonus to the damage rolls for your dragon breath power."

DragonBreath is now offically an arcane sorcerer power

[windgate]

Its been said before, but recharging dragon breath will typvially require either "nursemees atonement" and/or "hurl breath" feats. The Hurl breath path is suicidal if you always peirce"equal to" your resistance (and are not using nursemees)

Edit:
A bit of warning. If you are transfering damage from allies you hit via nursemees, those allies are still subjected to the debuffs you applied. Instead of going for debuffs why not put some warlord in there for the "inspiring breath" feat instead?