best way to counter flying opponent

[khachaturian]

can anyone share preferred strategies for dealing with flying opponents at early, mid, and high levels? the loss of effectiveness with solid fog hurts somewhat, and i was wondering if there's anything similar in pathfinder

early: ranged weapons, summoned eagles or air elementals. illusions, fog, smoke to prevent targeting but still vulnerable to aoe

mid: can cast fly on bsf. summons might be able to grapple at this point, but i'm not really sure about the rules for being grappled or prone while in flight. doesn't seem like wind effects are strong or selective enough.

late: is the expectation that everyone will have independent access to flight at this point?

am i missing any key spells or strategies for this?

[Gildedragon]

Go to the ground: either literally underground, or beneath trees, inside a building...
Don't let your enemies pick the terrain

Also there are spells that remove flying ability, or severely hamper it (strong winds for one)

[ryu]

Early flyers are likely not also spellcasters and thus have no wind-wall. Ranged combat remains relevant as do flying summons, and several forms of save or lose you probably had prepped anyway like color spray, glitterdust, and grease to prevent them from getting airborne again after getting them on the ground even once.

At middling levels the importance of having a method to counter flying increases as enemies with it are more common. As such I would double down on the other common methods mentioned earlier and use a few of the iterative higher level versions of save or lose from before as fight deciders.

At late levels everyone is blatantly expected to be able to fly. Even the big stupid fighter. Especially the big stupid fighter. At this point flight shouldn't really be a deciding factor that effects your tactics much, because everyone and their grandma can do it.

[Slipperychicken]

You could use some kind of throwing weapon, and/or be a Bloodstorm Blade.

Also, you're forgetting ranged spells, particularly blasts and save-or-lose.

Tripping can work against flying opponents.

Harpooning an enemy can work.

[atomicwaffle]

Temporarily blind them. unless they have perfect flight, they'll drop. Daze, Glitterdust, Sleep are very good. Shoot a crossbow with rope attached to it, aim for a wing. I *think* ray of enfeeblement might work, but not sure (i'd house rule that it would).

Melee classes are a bit more limited. If the monster is intelligent, make a readied action to strike it as it zooms past you or tries to attack and then goad it into attacking.

[khachaturian]

if a flying target is incapacitated- sleep, paralysis, stun, daze- does it fall?

[atomicwaffle]

if a flying target is incapacitated- sleep, paralysis, stun, daze- does it fall?

i would rule it does, although it depends on the DM. I say, unless it has perfect flight, it can't know which way is up and falls.

[Snowbluff]

Ray of Enfeeblement will work if they have flight limited by load, like some winged PCs.

Tripping doesn't work in PF.

Some creatures, like Raptoran, won't fall even when unconscious. Casters may use Feather Fall.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ray of Enfeeblement will work if they have flight limited by load, like some winged PCs.

Tripping doesn't work in PF.

Some creatures, like Raptoran, won't fall even when unconscious. Casters may use Feather Fall.

Nitpick: Raptorans do fall when unconscious. They just have a auto-save mechanic that reduces falling damage to 1d6, period.

Also try the downdraft spell from SpC. Its 200 ft straight down, unless they beat the Ref save. Then its 100 ft! Though I think the numbers are half that.

[deuxhero]

In 3.5 any way of reducing the targets speed (a mere tanglefoot bag works even on a save) would force non-perfect fliers to either hover or go straight ahead if they didn't want to crash. PF sadly removed that when redoing the flight rules, and now they just need to pass very low Fly check that most fliers pass on a 1. The big iconic flying monsters seem to get on the low end of fly and still fail a good portion of the time with the dex penalty from the bag (this MAY actually be better, as they might risk the check and crash instead of going straight)



if a flying target is incapacitated- sleep, paralysis, stun, daze- does it fall?

No, but the Paladin who inflicted that does

[stack]

Tanglefoot bombs, the scaling dc makes them nasty against winged flyers.

[avr]

It's situational, but if the flying enemy will pursue you go indoors or into a smaller room.

Readying an action can allow BSF's to hit flyby attackers. Largely but not entirely a low level thing.

Reach weapons and/or jumping can occasionally help.

[Togo]

A flyer is just someone faster than you. Use ranged attacks, which everyone can get, cover, and concealment. Chasing after them at worst a waste of time, and at best having the combat defined by what they've chosen to specialise in.

Wind wall is often cited as some kind of wonderous ranged attack nullifier - all it is a conjured wall that they can cast spells through. Take cover, and wait for them to come to you. If you don't have cover, make smoke. Or use a bloodseeking bow and just shoot them anyway.

Players often get hung up on using their best attack. It's entirely ok to use sub-standard attacks against a flier, so long as you're still doing better at killing them than they are at killing you.

Flying at high level is great for ground-based opponents - it's not particularly useful against other fliers, unless you're faster than them.

[SalterisSolaris]

Just for the sake of hilarity... if you happen to be an Incantatrix fighting a flying spellcaster: snatch his Fly spell.

Trust me, it's very disadvantageous to be buzzing around when the person in control happens to be standing on the ground 30ft away... and is your enemy.

[Ssalarn]

if a flying target is incapacitated- sleep, paralysis, stun, daze- does it fall?

It depends on the type of flight. If it's natural flight (with wings) yes. Magical flight, no.

For an incredible resource for all of your flying questions and needs, I strongly recommend picking up Companions of the Firmament (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/114091/Companions-of-the-Firmament). The first chapter takes all of the flying (and falling!) rules scattered throughout the CRB and other Paizo core books and consolidates them in one place with a logical order, as well as including all the Paizo published ways for a character to gain flying, what level they gain it at, and any related size restrictions. The second chapter has a bunch of flight-based character options, including mounts, archetypes, etc. The Third chapter is gear, and the 4th chapter is new mechanics and lots of GM "cheat sheets" for setting up aerial encounters.

It's really good.

[SirWolf312]

For opponents mounted on flying creatures such as drakes, cast grease targeting the saddle. It doesn't guarantee that they will fall but it will work more often than not. It is also hilariously simple.

[Gemini476]

I have no clue what good counters there are in Pathfinder, but in 3.5 the Truenamer can be surprisingly effective against them. Reversed Seek the Sky is a no-save-or-be-grounded (with a Feather Fall-esque effect, sadly), but that's not all! They are also completely unable to fly for the duration of the Utterance - 5 rounds!
Sure, you give up the ability to fly yourself (unless you use Heighten cheese to get around the Law of Sequence). It's a great debuff, though.